McLaren for all their money, they flounder, why?

[DezinerPaul]

Mega team McLaren, have had a storied past, huge fan base and a strong automaker alliance.
It all sounds to good to be true, and it is. They have had numerous problems, Spygate, Alonso's miss management, poor communication with it's driver during the race and last but not least, they have failed to deliver a championship in 10 years.
One reason, Ron Dennis, it is clear to the most casual of observer, that Mr Megalomaniac himself is at the heart of the teams problems. The big question, how much longer will Mercedes, suffer this fools mismanagement. The talk is that he will not last another year, if he does not deliver a title.

[Dave B]

One could equally ask why two of the world's largest motor manufacturers, Honda and Toyota, have invested billions over the last decade yet enjoyed only one solitary race win between them.

Could you provide a source for this "talk" about Ron not lasting another year?

[MrJan]

Hardly floundering. Schumacher and Ferrari were very strong for half of it and would have taken a lot of beating. Then Renault built a very quick car and had a decent driver in Alonso. Last year when they finally got near the front they were dogged by Spygate and in fighting which got in the way of racing.

However the team has been near the top for a very long time and has always been a contender. Far from being a problem I think that Ron Dennis is one of the reasons for them being a force for so long being that he is one of the constants. Also shall we not forget the sea of nothingness that Ferrari had for umpteen years before Schumacher came along.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not the kind of person to support a team in motorsport, for me it's all about drivers. Also I think that Ron Dennis is a p**** and have never really liked McLaren because of him. However I am able to look at Formula 1 without wearing my big red coloured glasses and see that he really isn't that bad a team principle.

[DezinerPaul]

One could equally ask why two of the world's largest motor manufacturers, Honda and Toyota, have invested billions over the last decade yet enjoyed only one solitary race win between them.

Could you provide a source for this "talk" about Ron not lasting another year?

Wonder how long it will be before Honda and Toyota, are going to wise up and get out of Europe. Lets face it, the future of F1 lies in Asia. In a few years, Europe will only have 3 or maybe 4 races.

[DezinerPaul]

Hardly floundering. Schumacher and Ferrari were very strong for half of it and would have taken a lot of beating. Then Renault built a very quick car and had a decent driver in Alonso. Last year when they finally got near the front they were dogged by Spygate and in fighting which got in the way of racing.

However the team has been near the top for a very long time and has always been a contender. Far from being a problem I think that Ron Dennis is one of the reasons for them being a force for so long being that he is one of the constants. Also shall we not forget the sea of nothingness that Ferrari had for umpteen years before Schumacher came along.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not the kind of person to support a team in motorsport, for me it's all about drivers. Also I think that Ron Dennis is a p**** and have never really liked McLaren because of him. However I am able to look at Formula 1 without wearing my big red coloured glasses and see that he really isn't that bad a team principle.


Ron Dennis/Max Mosley and Bernie Ecclestien are the real problem in F1. All three are the "Old Boys Club" they are bleeding the whole thing dry, they need to go.

[Knock-on]

Wonder how long this thread will last :laugh:

Flame on :D

[Tazio]

Wonder how long it will be before Honda and Toyota, are going to wise up and get out of Europe. Lets face it, the future of F1 lies in Asia. In a few years, Europe will only have 3 or maybe 4 races.You truly are clairvoyant. There will always be races in UK, Germany, Italy.
There are currently two races in Spain, counting the European GP.
There is Turkey, Monaco, France, Hungary, and Belgium. O.K Einstein,
how long do they have until Six or seven of these races are moved to Asia? Ten years?
Twenty? Or to use an expression you are fond of. When pigs fly?

[DezinerPaul]

You truly are clairvoyant. There will always be races in UK, Germany, Italy.
There are currently two races in Spain, counting the European GP.
There is Turkey, Monaco, France, Hungary, and Belgium. O.K Einstein,
how long do they have until Six or seven of these races are moved to Asia? Ten years?
Twenty? Or to use an expression you are fond of. When pigs fly?

Since when was Turkey in Europe. You may have an expanding Eu but that is a stretch for anybody.
Last time I checked, half of the races are not in Eu

[MrJan]

Since when was Turkey in Europe. You may have an expanding Eu but that is a stretch for anybody.
Last time I checked, half of the races are not in Eu

Because the EU is a union of nations from the continent of Europe. There are more contries in Europe than in the European Union. It's sort of like saying that Ontario isn't in America. Whilst it's not in the USA it's still in the continent of North America. I hope thats clear :up:

In other words Turkey is in Europe (that's why they can play in football's European Championships which were held last month :) )

[MrJan]

And having half of the races still isn't bad considering the size of the rest of the world :D Woooo Europe ;)

[wedge]

Mega team McLaren, have had a storied past, huge fan base and a strong automaker alliance.
It all sounds to good to be true, and it is. They have had numerous problems, Spygate, Alonso's miss management, poor communication with it's driver during the race and last but not least, they have failed to deliver a championship in 10 years.
One reason, Ron Dennis, it is clear to the most casual of observer, that Mr Megalomaniac himself is at the heart of the teams problems. The big question, how much longer will Mercedes, suffer this fools mismanagement. The talk is that he will not last another year, if he does not deliver a title.

It's about peaks and troughs.

Every team and driver goes through it.

I know you hate McLaren so stop looking for excuse to troll.

[Dave B]

I'm still waiting for a link to a source for these comments attributed to Ron.

Tick tock, Clarice.

[DezinerPaul]

And having half of the races still isn't bad considering the size of the rest of the world :D Woooo Europe ;)

The point is that bit by bit, F1 is being moved out of Europe, wonder when UK loses their GP. Whenever it happens, you can thank the unholy trio!
There was big talk this year that Merc was going to "retire" RD. Next year it will not be talk, he will be gone!

[DezinerPaul]

Wonder if they will keep Hamilton?

[Dave B]

There was big talk this year that Merc was going to "retire" RD. Next year it will not be talk, he will be gone!
It's strange, but I can't find any evidence of this - unless you're including calls for Ron's head on a spike during the "spygate" affair. Of course, you're about to provide a link...

We're still waiting.

[Dave B]

I'm going to take my dog for a walk. I'll be about an hour. That will give you time to cite your sources. :dog:

[DezinerPaul]

I'm going to take my dog for a walk. I'll be about an hour. That will give you time to cite your sources. :dog:

I see that you must be a McLaren fan!

[MrJan]

I see that you must be a McLaren fan!

AAAhhh. Of course, McLaren fans are all about the truth, the sneaky devils :rolleyes:

[ShiftingGears]

I see that you must be a McLaren fan!

Find a link to back up your claims, or admit you're wrong. Simple really.

Can you do that? Just for us?

[Tazio]

I see that you must be a McLaren fan!

You wouldn't by any chance happen to be an operative of the "Anti-Anglo Mafia"? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[ioan]

I see that you must be a McLaren fan!

Most of the people around here are McLaren fans, for whatever reason (i.e. nationality of team or driver). :D

As a Massa and MS fan you'll find yourself in minority and will have to toughen your skin! ;)

[Dave B]

Not quite an hour, but I doubt the extra time would have made any difference :rolleyes:

Actually, if pressed for my favourite team I'd say Williams but that's not the point. I do happen to support Hamilton, and have done so for several years, but he's not the only driver I admire.

But again, that's irrelevant. You're making accusations about Ron but don't seem to be able to back them up. If you don't like a particular team or driver then that is of course your perogative, you're welcome to your opinion. What you can't do is fling statistics and facts around when it suits your arguement, then hide behind unsubstantiated rumours and hearsay when you come unstuck.

[DezinerPaul]

Most of the people around here are McLaren fans, for whatever reason (i.e. nationality of team or driver). :D

As a Massa and MS fan you'll find yourself in minority and will have to toughen your skin! ;)


Well one MS fan is worth ten McLaren fans, who are British!

[DezinerPaul]

Not quite an hour, but I doubt the extra time would have made any difference :rolleyes:

Actually, if pressed for my favourite team I'd say Williams but that's not the point. I do happen to support Hamilton, and have done so for several years, but he's not the only driver I admire.

But again, that's irrelevant. You're making accusations about Ron but don't seem to be able to back them up. If you don't like a particular team or driver then that is of course your perogative, you're welcome to your opinion. What you can't do is fling statistics and facts around when it suits your arguement, then hide behind unsubstantiated rumours and hearsay when you come unstuck.

Your rambling rhetoric, suits you!

[DezinerPaul]

You wouldn't by any chance happen to be an operative of the "Anti-Anglo Mafia"? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif


Must say, I do not like the way they act towards their "stars" One day they build them up to be godlike, then spend forever pulling them apart. That and their complex about winning, they feel they are not worthy or capable, I feel it is a big reason that England has only had two champions in 30 years. England is the home of Speedway and they cannot even produce a champion there.

[MrJan]

Well one MS fan is worth ten McLaren fans, who are British!

Nice, let's bring some bigotry into the argument :)

This is what I don't like about F1, can't we all just be motorsport fans and stop all the in fighting? I'm a Hamilton fan, I also like Kimi, Kubica, Alonso, pretty much any driver who I believe has a real talent. I admire Michael Schumacher and can judge people on their merits rather than making stupid statements just because I prefer another team.

Give me a round of the MSA gravel rally championship any day, the people there want to watch the cars and drivers perform well, not just wish bad luck on other people and write complete and utter bulls***.

Roll on the football season, there's less rivalry ;)

[DezinerPaul]

Nice, let's bring some bigotry into the argument :)

This is what I don't like about F1, can't we all just be motorsport fans and stop all the in fighting? I'm a Hamilton fan, I also like Kimi, Kubica, Alonso, pretty much any driver who I believe has a real talent. I admire Michael Schumacher and can judge people on their merits rather than making stupid statements just because I prefer another team.

Give me a round of the MSA gravel rally championship any day, the people there want to watch the cars and drivers perform well, not just wish bad luck on other people and write complete and utter bulls***.

Roll on the football season, there's less rivalry ;)


Come on, don't use the bigot word, it is offensive! As for me being a bigot, you are a mile off the mark.

[DezinerPaul]

Nice, let's bring some bigotry into the argument :)

This is what I don't like about F1, can't we all just be motorsport fans and stop all the in fighting? I'm a Hamilton fan, I also like Kimi, Kubica, Alonso, pretty much any driver who I believe has a real talent. I admire Michael Schumacher and can judge people on their merits rather than making stupid statements just because I prefer another team.

Give me a round of the MSA gravel rally championship any day, the people there want to watch the cars and drivers perform well, not just wish bad luck on other people and write complete and utter bulls***.

Roll on the football season, there's less rivalry ;)


You could have addressed my statements, with an objective response. You did not disagree with my statements, som does that mean that you agree with it?

[Tazio]

Must say, I do not like the way they act towards their "stars" One day they build them up to be godlike, then spend forever pulling them apart. That and their complex about winning, they feel they are not worthy or capable, I feel it is a big reason that England has only had two champions in 30 years. England is the home of Speedway and they cannot even produce a champion there.Ok! So by your logic it would follow that the center of the F1 universe should be Brazil?
I am not a McLaren fan. But there isn't a team that hasn't benefited by F1 work done in the UK
(I can't believe I'm saying this) Ferrari's recent domination could arguably, and directly be attributed
to contributions by Brits. although some of them (for instance Stepney)need to be kept on a short leash.

[F1boat]

I hate McLaren and Ron, I hate the way they treated Montoya and Alonso and yet I think that they are the biggest rival of Ferrari. They are not un-successful. Compare them to Williams, for example. They are tough and dangerous and will do anything, legal or not, to win. The fact that after the enormous fine in 2007 they are still so close to Ferrari is incredible.

[MrJan]

Come on, don't use the bigot word, it is offensive! As for me being a bigot, you are a mile off the mark.

You outwardly said that a Schumacher fan is better than 10 British people. Sounds slightly bigoted, and to be honest offensive, to me. All people equal and all that, 10 Schumacher fans, 10 people.


You could have addressed my statements, with an objective response. You did not disagree with my statements, som does that mean that you agree with it?

I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here. Your statements that the FIA are taking GPs from Europe? Don't really care as I only ever watch it on TV. I'd like there to be a British GP because of the history but I won't lose sleep over it. This season sees the first ever night race to cater for the European market, it's a big and rich place and no matter what the lure of Asia is we'll still have a reasonable number of GPs.

If you are talking about us not having a world champ then you are right. Unlike most of your comments this is factually correct. We're also rubbish at football, okay at rugby and pathetic at cricket. At least we're proud.

I don't agree with you comments about McLaren and I said so. They've been at the top of the sport for as long as I can remember, unlike Ferrari who were rubbish until Schumacher turned up.

I still don't see any links that show that Ron Dennis is on his way out.

As I've already said I don't feel the need to affliate myself to a team to feel like a fan. I watch the racing hoping that a driver I quite like will win, but most of all I hope that the race will be exciting no matter who wins.

Well one MS fan is worth ten McLaren fans, who are British!

What's a British Michael Schumacher & Ferrari fan worth then?

Is it worth putting myself on Ebay?

[MrJan]

What's a British Michael Schumacher & Ferrari fan worth then?

Is it worth putting myself on Ebay?

By the time it cancels itself probably nothing :p : ;)

[Tazio]

Well one MS fan is worth ten McLaren fans, who are British! Let's get down to the meat of the matter. You are worse than a bigot!

who are British!
You show up at this forum after the French GP and immediately start talking $h!t about the Brits and their top team.
It pissed me off when people did this about France. It'll piss me off if it happens for Italy, Germany, or Spain.
Your agenda is transparent. You have tried to hijack this forum during the week of the majority of it's members home GP.
What happened did a Brit steal your woman?
You disgust me. My one solace is that you will probably disappear after this race.
A boycott of your venomous blather is in order until after this weekend!
For me starting right now!

[DezinerPaul]

Let's get down to the meat of the matter. You are worse than a bigot!

You show up at this forum after the French GP and immediately start talking $h!t about the Brits and their top team.
It pissed me off when people did this about France. It'll piss me off if it happens for Italy, Germany, or Spain.
Your agenda is transparent. You have tried to hijack this forum during the week of the majority of it's members home GP.
What happened did a Brit steal your woman?
You disgust me. My one solace is that you will probably disappear after this race.
A boycott of your venomous blather is in order until after this weekend!
For me starting right now!


Not sure where your sense of humor is, you are not making sense.
For your info, I am English, so I am not sure how transparent I am.
So, i think you owe me an apology.........................accepted!

[mstillhere]

I'm still waiting for a link to a source for these comments attributed to Ron.

Tick tock, Clarice.

It's about a year old. It was published by Marca (Marca.com). And it turned out to be totally false. Unless....the Spanish journalist made a mistake and accidentally said that Ron was going to be canned this year when what he really meant was next year. :)

[yodasarmpit]

In the last ten years a McLaren driver has finished either 1st or 2nd in seven out of those ten seasons.
That record is only surpassed by Ferrari.

Certainly Ferrari has been the success of the past decade, however this hardly validates the claim that McLaren are floundering.

[markabilly]

Let's get down to the meat of the matter. You are worse than a bigot!

You show up at this forum after the French GP and immediately start talking $h!t about the Brits and their top team.
It pissed me off when people did this about France. It'll piss me off if it happens for Italy, Germany, or Spain.
Your agenda is transparent. You have tried to hijack this forum during the week of the majority of it's members home GP.
What happened did a Brit steal your woman?
You disgust me. My one solace is that you will probably disappear after this race.
A boycott of your venomous blather is in order until after this weekend!
For me starting right now!


Not sure where your sense of humor is, you are not making sense.
For your info, I am English, so I am not sure how transparent I am.
So, i think you owe me an apology.........................accepted!

Must be Garry Walker or one of the other recently banned folks....as to being English, those comments about Jim Clark make me wonder, but one ms fan worth ten brits??

I figured no more than five


But never fear, I got the cure for what's ailing you, a little of the good reverend Jimmy Jones special brand of kool aid, guarrantedd will make you see Jesus..... :beer:

and one glass will easily serve ten brits or one MS fan.....

[jens]

DezinerPaul is a genius - having been at MSF only for a few days, he is clearly under the spotlight and the attention magnet here already! :D ;) :p :

About the team this thread was supposed to talk about.
As here was some mentioning about fan groups, then I have to mention that although I am not and have never been a fan of Team McLaren as such, then I have to admit I have a huge respect for that team. They have played important role in the history of Formula One and are continually one of the benchmarks in F1, from who the majority of F1 teams can learn a lot, how to succeed in F1. I have to say I have felt huge pride and honor, when Jarno and Toyota have been able to fight against McLaren :D - like last time around at Magny-Cours. To be able to fight against such great team creates is an achievement.

And finally Ron Dennis. Yes, he may not be perfect (but who's perfect anyway?) and he may have his flaws, but it's hard to deny that he is a damn good team principal.

[DezinerPaul]

[quote="yodasarmpit"]In the last ten years a McLaren driver has finished either 1st or 2nd in seven out of those ten seasons.
That record is only surpassed by Ferrari.

Certainly Ferrari has been the success of the past decade, however this hardly validates the claim that McLaren are floundering.[/quote

It is not a question of floundering, rather not delivering the all important gold.
They had wonder boy Kimi and lost him, paid a gazillion for Alonso, lost him.
Now they are stuck with Queen motormouth, who has only one chance of a title, having a car that is miles better than anything else.
In short they have spent a fortune and still no drivers title. Guess their fans are living in hope for 2009

[F1boat]

They have not lost in 2008. Not yet.

[MrJan]

It is not a question of floundering, rather not delivering the all important gold.
They had wonder boy Kimi and lost him, paid a gazillion for Alonso, lost him.
Now they are stuck with Queen motormouth, who has only one chance of a title, having a car that is miles better than anything else.
In short they have spent a fortune and still no drivers title. Guess their fans are living in hope for 2009

If it's not a question of floundering then what is the point in the thread title? :mark:

McLaren got rid of Kimi because they wanted Alonso and Hamilton. Okay it didn't work out as well as they'd hoped but come the last race of the season they had 2 drivers in with a shout of winning the WDC. Not a bad return.

Sure they've spent a lot of money, but the hype about Hamilton alone will have made them a fortune. There is so much talk about the guy, certainly in England and probably elsewhere (it would seem from the fuss here) that the car is nearly always on the TV. Sponsors love that kind of exposure.

As for the Hamilton title, we'll se :) ;)

[jens]

McLaren got rid of Kimi because they wanted Alonso and Hamilton.

I don't think this was quite the scenario, what happened. Arguably Kimi signed a contract with Ferrari already in Autumn 2005, so McLaren had to try to find someone to replace him, hence they signed Alonso in December 2005. I also don't think Hamilton was a direct contender for 2007 McLaren drive already back then - he became a choice with his very strong GP2 campaign in 2006.

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm still waiting for a link to a source for these comments attributed to Ron.

Tick tock, Clarice.

You'll be waiting a LONG time for that joker to provide a link or backup anything he says with reliable data.

Now you leave him alone, you mean old McLaren/Ayrton Senna/Lewis Hamilton fan!

According to Sports Pro magazine, Honda spends more total dollars in Formula One than any other company: $270 million+. Mercedes spends less than Red Bull and about the same as Toyota. I'm not a Ron Dennis fan, but considering their results, why would Mercedes force Dennis out? BMW is probably getting the best current bang for the buck, of the automotive companies involved. But to say that McLaren-Mercedes is "floundering" is just more hyperbole from the board's most recent drive-by poster.

[Jag_Warrior]

If it's not a question of floundering then what is the point in the thread title? :mark:

Oh, sure! Bring up facts! What fun are you?! :D

[gravity]

In short they have spent a fortune and still no drivers title. Guess their fans are living in hope for 2009

Interesting view from someone who pushes (some say relies on) stats yet it's still 'statistically possible' for either Mclaren driver to win the WDC in 2008.

[mstillhere]

McLaren got rid of Kimi because they wanted Alonso and Hamilton

I am not sure about that. The way I remember it, it was Kimi who got tired of too many problems with the car and signed up with Ferrari way before Alonso etc. got in the picture. Next thing you know, he's world champion. What a nice switch.

[mstillhere]

I don't think this was quite the scenario, what happened. Arguably Kimi signed a contract with Ferrari already in Autumn 2005, so McLaren had to try to find someone to replace him, hence they signed Alonso in December 2005. I also don't think Hamilton was a direct contender for 2007 McLaren drive already back then - he became a choice with his very strong GP2 campaign in 2006.

OOps..I just posted the same thing. Sorry

[mstillhere]

I'm not a Ron Dennis fan, but considering their results, why would Mercedes force Dennis out?

I can think of three reasons:

1. Lack of results

2. Spygate

3. Inability to manage his own two pilots

[Jag_Warrior]

I can think of three reasons:

1. Lack of results

2. Spygate

3. Inability to manage his own two pilots

Possibly, at least on point 1.

On point 2, I don't know how much Mercedes blames Dennis (personally) for the Stepneygate affair. I'm not sure why Pedro de la Rosa wasn't also fired along with Coughlan, but I don't claim to know all of the ins & outs.

On point 3, do you mean Alonso and Hamilton or Kovalainen and Hamilton? I don't think the Pope could have managed Alonso and Hamilton. Two strong drivers, both with large egos, on the same team, seldom works out. Including Dennis, I don't think anyone expected Hamilton to be as quick (and headstrong) as he proved to be in his rookie season. But I wasn't aware of any major issues with the other two.

Dennis seems to have some personal issues to deal with. Many of the internet experts had him gone by mid-season '08. I think he might leave at season's end to deal with family issues. But I have read nothing out of the Mercedes corporate camp to suggest they'll try to push him.

[DezinerPaul]

Interesting view from someone who pushes (some say relies on) stats yet it's still 'statistically possible' for either Mclaren driver to win the WDC in 2008.

It has been 10 years since they took the real gold! In my books that is the statistic.
You McLaren fans may think all is fine in McLarenland, that however is not the case. Mercedes will not accept the fact that BMW are pushing them. They will look at every part of the organization and demand changes, McLaren's weakness is their drivers and driver mangement.

[DezinerPaul]

Sir Jackie Stewart believes a lack of communication within the McLaren team has led to Lewis Hamilton losing his grip on the drivers' championship.
Last year's world title runner-up suffered a 10-place grid penalty for the French GP when driving into the back of Kimi Raikkonen in the pit lane in Canada, resulting in Hamilton drawing a blank in successive races.
However, F1 legend Stewart believes better communication and the absence of a 'mind guru' at McLaren are the reasons behind Hamilton's recent mistakes.
"One of the biggest and most important elements is communication, and there is not enough of that going on,"

[ArrowsFA1]

Mercedes will not accept the fact that BMW are pushing them. They will look at every part of the organization and demand changes.
BMW, Ferrari, Toyota, Renault etc etc are all constantly looking at every part of their organisation to improve. Continuous improvement is essential.

Mercedes is no different.

[ArrowsFA1]

It is not a question of floundering...
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Make your mind up :rolleyes:

[Tumbo]

It has been 10 years since they took the real gold! In my books that is the statistic.
You McLaren fans may think all is fine in McLarenland, that however is not the case. Mercedes will not accept the fact that BMW are pushing them. They will look at every part of the organization and demand changes, McLaren's weakness is their drivers and driver mangement.

Wait wait wait wait wait.....................how many titles has Honda got in 10 yrs, on those arguments then every team other than Ferrari should remove their head as nothing is working. Also do your math, Hakkinen won the title in 1999, 9yrs at the end of this one so therefore Ron has 12mths on your statistical method :p

[Azumanga Davo]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Make your mind up :rolleyes:

He's run out of superglue to make it up, can you send some Pritt Stick over to him?

[Daniel]

We need a next to be banned pickem thread :D

[Azumanga Davo]

We need a next to be banned pickem thread :D

We did, but it was more specific to Eki I think. ;)

[Tazio]

Flounders perform swimmingly :D :up:
Congrats to Lewis. Great drive!!

[jens]

Tazio, what about changing your sig to "Lewis Hamilton! From the Outhouse, to the Penthouse!"? :p :

[Jag_Warrior]

Clearly, Dennis' and Hamilton's days are numbered at McLaren, if Mercedes doesn't pull out first. The quicker they give these two nonperformers the boot, the sooner the team can stop floundering. :bounce: :monkee: :bigcry:
And watch out for the hares! :imubash:

[Tazio]

Tazio, what about changing your sig to "Lewis Hamilton! From the Outhouse, to the Penthouse!"? :p :

No thanks!
I am considering "Felipe Massa From the Outhouse, to the Penthouse, back to the Outhouse"! :p :
Since he's still in the fight I'll give him another race or two!

[DezinerPaul]

No thanks!
I am considering "Felipe Massa From the Outhouse, to the Penthouse, back to the Outhouse"! :p :
Since he's still in the fight I'll give him another race or two!


Massa was never on pace after his huge off on Friday.

[Knock-on]

Clearly, Dennis' and Hamilton's days are numbered at McLaren, if Mercedes doesn't pull out first. The quicker they give these two nonperformers the boot, the sooner the team can stop floundering. :bounce: :monkee:
And watch out for the hares! :imubash:


:laugh:

Yep, get rid of these loooosers :D

[ZX7Robert]

Yeah, it's hard to believe a privateer company like McLaren isn't dominating everything in sight, when wee auto manufacturers like Fiat, with only modest sponsorship in the likes of Marlboro, are competing with them.

Ah, but I kid. Somewhat. McLaren has resources up the wazoo, and a case could be made for them being more competitive/dominant. But if we're talking post-1998, if you take Ferrari/MS out of the mix, aren't they pretty successful in their own right? Sure, Renault had a couple of years, but everything cycles. Someone always emerges. Renault has resources too.

Remember the awful Peugeot "hand grenades" McLaren had after Honda - and then Ford - pulled out in the early 90's? That was supposed to be a great partnership with much promise, and after the mid 80's - early 90's McLaren success, that disaster "could" have been Dennis' death knell as well; except that the internet wasn't flourishing like it is today, with every casual fan claiming to know everything, giving their half-assed opinions and causing an "uproar" on almighty message boards. Meanwhile, life went on, and the Mercedes deal was struck. That has worked out pretty well.

Last year was a disaster on many levels, but forget the Alonso fiasco for now; we don't know the whole story there, and there's little use in speculating. It just didn't work out, and that's all we as spectators can ascertain from events. Spygate, well...we don't know much there either, except that McLaren got caught doing "something". Also bad. Not to let Dennis off, but in this day and age, the internet makes "behind the scenes" scandals like that so much more possible, people like us can only speculate as to who knows what, why and where it happened, etc. Not to mention that when MM comes out and says Ferrari IS Formula ONE, and a number of past technical innovations/violations have proven that to be true, you realize that a true and honest "day in court" for McLaren in that situation may not be in the cards.

It's interesting that Williams -also a privateer - was once THE dominant force in F1, and no one ever asks why they're "floundering". Oh, that's because they can't assemble the resources to be competitive in the first place. Not to rip on them; Sir Frank and Patrick Head seem like good men, but I'm just saying...

Anyhow, for better or worse, I hope Dennis is here to stay for at least another championship. I fondly remember the "good ol' days" of Marlboro/McLaren/TAG-Porsche/Prost, and these are the images I conjour up when I hear or see the words "Formula One". I can't imagine F1 without McLaren or Dennis.

[Daniel]

Remember the awful Peugeot "hand grenades" McLaren had after Honda - and then Ford - pulled out in the early 90's?

I wonder if Peugeot have some sort of record for their engines going BOOM more often than others?

[ZX7Robert]

What was truly insane, was how often it happened *on the grid*!


I wonder if Peugeot have some sort of record for their engines going BOOM more often than others?

[DezinerPaul]

Yeah, it's hard to believe a privateer company like McLaren isn't dominating everything in sight, when wee auto manufacturers like Fiat, with only modest sponsorship in the likes of Marlboro, are competing with them.

Ah, but I kid. Somewhat. McLaren has resources up the wazoo, and a case could be made for them being more competitive/dominant. But if we're talking post-1998, if you take Ferrari/MS out of the mix, aren't they pretty successful in their own right? Sure, Renault had a couple of years, but everything cycles. Someone always emerges. Renault has resources too.

Remember the awful Peugeot "hand grenades" McLaren had after Honda - and then Ford - pulled out in the early 90's? That was supposed to be a great partnership with much promise, and after the mid 80's - early 90's McLaren success, that disaster "could" have been Dennis' death knell as well; except that the internet wasn't flourishing like it is today, with every casual fan claiming to know everything, giving their half-assed opinions and causing an "uproar" on almighty message boards. Meanwhile, life went on, and the Mercedes deal was struck. That has worked out pretty well.

Last year was a disaster on many levels, but forget the Alonso fiasco for now; we don't know the whole story there, and there's little use in speculating. It just didn't work out, and that's all we as spectators can ascertain from events. Spygate, well...we don't know much there either, except that McLaren got caught doing "something". Also bad. Not to let Dennis off, but in this day and age, the internet makes "behind the scenes" scandals like that so much more possible, people like us can only speculate as to who knows what, why and where it happened, etc. Not to mention that when MM comes out and says Ferrari IS Formula ONE, and a number of past technical innovations/violations have proven that to be true, you realize that a true and honest "day in court" for McLaren in that situation may not be in the cards.

It's interesting that Williams -also a privateer - was once THE dominant force in F1, and no one ever asks why they're "floundering". Oh, that's because they can't assemble the resources to be competitive in the first place. Not to rip on them; Sir Frank and Patrick Head seem like good men, but I'm just saying...

Anyhow, for better or worse, I hope Dennis is here to stay for at least another championship. I fondly remember the "good ol' days" of Marlboro/McLaren/TAG-Porsche/Prost, and these are the images I conjour up when I hear or see the words "Formula One". I can't imagine F1 without McLaren or Dennis.



Well let me see, i did not like Senna, he is gone (it is sad the way he went) don't like Prost, he is gone. Two down, two to go, Dennis and Hamilton!

[Big Ben]

Well let me see, i did not like Senna, he is gone (it is sad the way he went) don't like Prost, he is gone. Two down, two to go, Dennis and Hamilton!

I might get some points for this but you are not too smart, are you?

[DezinerPaul]

I might get some points for this but you are not too smart, are you?


My guess, I am a lot smarter than you. Could you be a McLaren fan, well you have the IQ for it!

[MrJan]

My guess, I am a lot smarter than you. Could you be a McLaren fan, well you have the IQ for it!

It's quite ironic that you don't like Hamilton because he's arrogant :D

[DezinerPaul]

It's quite ironic that you don't like Hamilton because he's arrogant :D


A useless pun, I am not the airhead that lost the world title by being a fool, I am not the idiot that had more to say about spygate than the people actually involved. Do I like the guy, I cannot stand him, I think he is a FOOL and an idiot. The best thing is that I will not have to put up with him forever.

[DezinerPaul]

Say all you want, Dennis will be gone soon and when McLaren are running the ship, they will not want Hamilton

[ShiftingGears]

A useless pun.

Do you even know the difference between a pun, and irony?

[Big Ben]

Deziner, I haven't seen anyone here besides you expressing his satisfaction that someone died. since this is just a sport and its main purpose is entertainment I don't think you show too much wisdom.

It is a shame they have deleted your post... they have done you a favor. Everybody should be able to see it and rate your IQ according to your own words. However you have left plenty of clues around...

[Dave B]

A useless pun, I am not the airhead that lost the world title by being a fool...
Correct, you're sitting in an armchair watching the big boys play and wishing you were good enough to join in.

[Daniel]

Correct, you're sitting in an armchair watching the big boys play and wishing you were good enough to join in.
When it's not raining of course :)

[DezinerPaul]

Deziner, I haven't seen anyone here besides you expressing his satisfaction that someone died. since this is just a sport and its main purpose is entertainment I don't think you show too much wisdom.

It is a shame they have deleted your post... they have done you a favor. Everybody should be able to see it and rate your IQ according to your own words. However you have left plenty of clues around...


At NO time have I ever said or suggested that I was happy that Senna died, that is absurd. What happened was sad and very tragic and I resent anybody suggesting that I am happy about his death!

[Mark]

Wishing that someone die is not acceptable on the forum, whatever the meaning behind it. Therefore appropriate measures have been taken.

[SGWilko]

Amen!

[Knock-on]

Wishing that someone die is not acceptable on the forum, whatever the meaning behind it. Therefore appropriate measures have been taken.

Poor old Garry. RIP.

:D

[AJP]

I seemed to have missed all the fun and games....damn..

[Azumanga Davo]

I seemed to have missed all the fun and games....damn..

You have missed nothing that will expand your brainpower too much, apart from the fact we all now have one more person in the world we hate. ;)

[DezinerPaul]

What's a British Michael Schumacher & Ferrari fan worth then?

Is it worth putting myself on Ebay?

If you get a good price let me know and I will follow you!

[DezinerPaul]

You have missed nothing that will expand your brainpower too much, apart from the fact we all now have one more person in the world we hate. ;)


Hate is such a strong word, still if that is the way you fill, glad I could be of a service!

[Dave B]

Good news everybody, the fun and games can start again! :dozey:

[jens]

Oh, I see that the "floundering" team is catching Ferrari in the WCC standings very rapidly...

[Azumanga Davo]

Hate is such a strong word, still if that is the way you fill, glad I could be of a service!

Did I say you could stop dancing, clown?