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ten-tenths
22nd June 2008, 14:50
OK, this is becoming ridiculous. It seems they are making crucial pit stratedy errors and seem to be more prone to breakdowns than ever before. The bulletproof reliability and expertise in stratedy that MS enjoyed seems to be gone. Ferrari seems like the team that was pre-MS,Brawn,Todt. Bumbling and second rate.

AndySpeed
22nd June 2008, 15:02
No they don't.

yodasarmpit
22nd June 2008, 15:29
The race result seems to contradict your observations ten-tenths :)

ten-tenths
22nd June 2008, 15:36
the 1-2 was dominating. but kimi was lucky to bring it home in second and salvage some points. and there have been some boneheaded mistakes. kimi was penalized a drive thru for not choosing his tires in time. both ferraris were on the wrong tires during that wet race.. there are several others where mistakes have been made and that didnt usually happen with brawn, todt, and MS. ferrari seems more error prone to me.

ioan
22nd June 2008, 15:40
Strategy wise they are clearly worse than before.
Reliability wise they are also a bit worse than before.
Luckily for them they got the best drivers and the car is really really fast, and this allows them to stay in front.

ten-tenths
22nd June 2008, 15:47
hey ioan, i think massa has become a championship caliber driver this season. i think he can take the championship if kimi starts having the same type of luck he has seen while in a maclaren.

wedge
22nd June 2008, 15:50
It seems they're missing Ross Brawn, someone who knows the rule-book inside out (witness Button taking advantage of the SC/tyre change rule in Canadad), and can make a quick and decisive decision where a sudden change of strategy is required.

Mekola
22nd June 2008, 15:52
Today they did another 1-2 with Massa and Kimi, so there is not going that backwards, and still have chances to fight for both Championships.

F1boat
22nd June 2008, 16:01
They are not as strong as in 2004, but they are clearly better than 2005, and a bit better than in 2006 and maybe then last year.

Garry Walker
22nd June 2008, 16:29
Some really bad luck for Ferraris this year.

Sleeper
22nd June 2008, 17:18
Ferrari were hardly infalible before Brawn and co left, the only real difference is that they are not quite as reliable now as they used to be (Brawn stoped making stratagey several years before he left the team).

elinagr
22nd June 2008, 17:48
what a stubit thread

Shalafi
22nd June 2008, 17:58
Strategy wise they are clearly worse than before.
Reliability wise they are also a bit worse than before.
Luckily for them they got the best drivers and the car is really really fast, and this allows them to stay in front.

Exactly.

elinagr
22nd June 2008, 18:03
so the 1-2 today was by luck?

ioan
22nd June 2008, 18:15
so the 1-2 today was by luck?

Yep, by luck. A few more laps and one of them would have been out of the race, I'll let you guess which one.

jens
22nd June 2008, 18:18
Wow. After Malaysian Grand Prix who would have thought Massa will be leading the WDC already before half of the season? :p : In terms of raw pace Ferrari isn't certainly going backwards and while Ferrari has some issues, then other teams are struggling to capitalize on this due to quite apparent lack of pace.

F1boat
22nd June 2008, 18:18
No, it was not by luck. Only a great car can finish with such problems. There were 70 and not 70 and something laps.

Shalafi
22nd June 2008, 18:20
No, it was not by luck. Only a great car can finish with such problems. There were 70 and not 70 and something laps.

Great car and a great driver driving that car...as these pictures show, amazing:
http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2008/06/664573

markabilly
22nd June 2008, 18:26
Great car and a great driver driving that car...as these pictures show, amazing:
http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2008/06/664573

Great drive or not, I wonder how they will pass the weight check without the tailpipe and stuff,, it might not be much but an ounce here and a gram there, and then :grenade:

Big Ben
22nd June 2008, 18:36
i think they will win both titles these seasons without too much problems... so yes... they are going from worse to worst... especially if we think how good the last 3 seasons were...

ioan
22nd June 2008, 18:36
No, it was not by luck. Only a great car can finish with such problems. There were 70 and not 70 and something laps.

That car could have caught fire at any moment, they were lucky it didn't happen.

gravity
22nd June 2008, 18:54
They were lucky to start 1st and 2nd, lucky to get a clean start, lucky to have no problems in pit-stops, lucky to have no spins in the rain, lucky that the exhause broke/burnt a hole in the chassis to keep the engine bay cool, lucky to have enough of a lead to allow them a cushion incase something went wrong, lucky to have a driver who could nurse a broken car home, lucky that the race wasn't a few laps longer. Damn! They were lucky!
:P

F1boat
22nd June 2008, 19:14
That car could have caught fire at any moment, they were lucky it didn't happen.

To me it is a good design. They made their own luck.

Juppe
22nd June 2008, 20:58
So Kimi had a new engine for this event and the engine is probably grilled after the race - therefore ten place penalty in Silverstone for changing the engine is most likely heading Kimi's way? Bummer.

F1boat
22nd June 2008, 21:32
So Kimi had a new engine for this event and the engine is probably grilled after the race - therefore ten place penalty in Silverstone for changing the engine is most likely heading Kimi's way? Bummer.

Well, I didn't thought about that. If this happens, the race will be probably Massa vs Lewis.

Shalafi
22nd June 2008, 22:26
So Kimi had a new engine for this event and the engine is probably grilled after the race - therefore ten place penalty in Silverstone for changing the engine is most likely heading Kimi's way? Bummer.

They can change engine once this season without a penalty...

gravity
22nd June 2008, 22:30
Very sharp Shalafi! I didn't notice that rule ;)

ten-tenths
22nd June 2008, 23:02
They were lucky to start 1st and 2nd, lucky to get a clean start, lucky to have no problems in pit-stops, lucky to have no spins in the rain, lucky that the exhause broke/burnt a hole in the chassis to keep the engine bay cool, lucky to have enough of a lead to allow them a cushion incase something went wrong, lucky to have a driver who could nurse a broken car home, lucky that the race wasn't a few laps longer. Damn! They were lucky!
:P


the car is fast. i am not questioning their speed. but i am questioning their quality control and small niggling errors by the ferrari braintrust. errors such as choosing which tires to put on kimi's car after the alloted time slot at monaco was stupid and it resulted in a drive thru penalty. and the exhaust piece should never have been lose to begin with. kimi stated that a couple of more laps and the car would have been toast. so yea it is both unlucky that it happened but lucky the care was able to build a huge lead and only lose one spot. i am just saying ferrari seems alot more sloppy lately. i think Luca Baldisserri is capable but he is not clearly head and shoulders above the rest.

Hawkmoon
23rd June 2008, 00:51
Let's see. They have won 5 of 8 races including 3 1-2s, are the only team with both drivers in championship contention and are leading both championships. Bloody hell! I'm sure the other 9 teams wouldn't want Ferrari's problems!

Yes they have made errors of both procedure and strategy but those errors occured in the past too. Their reliability is pretty good. They've only sufferred 2 mechanical DNFs from 16 starts this season which is better than 2007.

They've got the fastest car and the best driver combination. They only thing they are lacking is perhaps the best race-day strategists. As I said, I'm sure the others teams would trade places in a heart beat.

Valve Bounce
23rd June 2008, 01:08
OK, this is becoming ridiculous. It seems they are making crucial pit stratedy errors and seem to be more prone to breakdowns than ever before. The bulletproof reliability and expertise in stratedy that MS enjoyed seems to be gone. Ferrari seems like the team that was pre-MS,Brawn,Todt. Bumbling and second rate.

If Ferrari were going backwards, it would appear that McLaren didn't bother to turn up. Where were they? and Renault? I guess Honda would have loved to be going backwards like Ferrari. :rolleyes:

Valve Bounce
23rd June 2008, 01:11
the car is fast. i am not questioning their speed. but i am questioning their quality control and small niggling errors by the ferrari braintrust. errors such as choosing which tires to put on kimi's car after the alloted time slot at monaco was stupid and it resulted in a drive thru penalty. and the exhaust piece should never have been lose to begin with. kimi stated that a couple of more laps and the car would have been toast. so yea it is both unlucky that it happened but lucky the care was able to build a huge lead and only lose one spot. i am just saying ferrari seems alot more sloppy lately. i think Luca Baldisserri is capable but he is not clearly head and shoulders above the rest.

I think you should look carefully at the results and check them; I don't think Ferrari lost one spot. Maybe a change of reading glasses might assist here.

ten-tenths
23rd June 2008, 04:13
I think you should look carefully at the results and check them; I don't think Ferrari lost one spot. Maybe a change of reading glasses might assist here.

???

ferrari got their 1-2 but it should have been kimi with the win. instead massa recieved some good luck and won the race. having said that he did well to qualify so close to kimi with one more lap of fuel.

hey valve this not about comparing ferrari to any other team such as maclaren, renault. this is strictly about ferrari. ferrari set a standard with their dominance and it is about ferrari matching their past performance.Their braintrust have made some silly silly errors recently and that is what i am commenting on.

ten-tenths
23rd June 2008, 04:21
Let's see. They have won 5 of 8 races including 3 1-2s, are the only team with both drivers in championship contention and are leading both championships. Bloody hell! I'm sure the other 9 teams wouldn't want Ferrari's problems!

Yes they have made errors of both procedure and strategy but those errors occured in the past too. Their reliability is pretty good. They've only sufferred 2 mechanical DNFs from 16 starts this season which is better than 2007.

They've got the fastest car and the best driver combination. They only thing they are lacking is perhaps the best race-day strategists. As I said, I'm sure the others teams would trade places in a heart beat.


no doubt other teams would kill to be where ferrari is right now. i am saying ferarri is slipping from the standards they set for themselves. Ferrari in all likelyhood will capture both titles. but they can do it maximising points each race. for some reason, either through driver errors, bad pit decisions, reliabilty issues, or just bad luck, they have not been dominating as they should. things like hamilton running into kimi is out of ferrari's hands as well as sc related issues. but they can help themselves by not making mistakes behind the pit wall and making sure quality control is improved. they just have not been dominating as they should, of course this is better for F1 that the championship is close but as a kimi fan it is frustrating that he is leaving points on the table that could be in his pocket.

Valve Bounce
23rd June 2008, 04:50
???

ferrari got their 1-2 but it should have been kimi with the win. instead massa recieved some good luck and won the race. having said that he did well to qualify so close to kimi with one more lap of fuel.

hey valve this not about comparing ferrari to any other team such as maclaren, renault. this is strictly about ferrari. ferrari set a standard with their dominance and it is about ferrari matching their past performance.Their braintrust have made some silly silly errors recently and that is what i am commenting on.

Not true!! dropping exhausts is part of Ferrari folklore, as is getting three wheels only during a wheel change. We could also argue that Super Aguri set the standard because nothing seemed to fall off their cars. :p :
Nor Volvo either, for that matter. ;)

Valve Bounce
23rd June 2008, 04:52
i am saying ferarri is slipping from the standards they set for themselves. Ferrari in all likelyhood will capture both titles. but they can do it maximising points each race. .

If my memory serves me correctly, Ferrari scored a 1-2 yesterday, thus maximising their points. Had they been going backwards, they would have been beaten by Team Honda. :D

Cozzie
23rd June 2008, 07:22
The simple fact is no team this year appears to be better than in previous seasons and it is sad that Ferrari are so dominant yet clearly so flawed. What does that say about their competition??? Maybe this is because of the new regs in 2009 or lack of driver aids but French GP appeared to be a comedy of errors that should not be seen in world class motorsport.

ten-tenths
23rd June 2008, 07:24
Not true!! dropping exhausts is part of Ferrari folklore, as is getting three wheels only during a wheel change. We could also argue that Super Aguri set the standard because nothing seemed to fall off their cars. :p :
Nor Volvo either, for that matter. ;)

yes! that is what i am afraid of.. soon they will revert back to those days of 3 wheels being changed and then a bunch of guys looking around and cursing at each other. and can you please for once go through a post without commenting about super aguri? ;)

ten-tenths
23rd June 2008, 07:32
The simple fact is no team this year appears to be better than in previous seasons and it is sad that Ferrari are so dominant yet clearly so flawed. What does that say about their competition??? Maybe this is because of the new regs in 2009 or lack of driver aids but French GP appeared to be a comedy of errors that should not be seen in world class motorsport.


yes! that is it. they have a car that is so dominant that even with a broken exhaust, losing about a second per lap compared to the field, takes the checkered in second place. They should be winning a 1-2 every race. oh well, i guess that is why they actually run the race, never know what is going to happen.

F1boat
23rd June 2008, 08:26
If Ferrari were going backwards, it would appear that McLaren didn't bother to turn up. Where were they? and Renault? I guess Honda would have loved to be going backwards like Ferrari. :rolleyes:

Everybody, except BMW, has gone backwards, that's why the season is so exciting. Look at 2003 - a great season, because every team made so many mistakes ;)

ioan
23rd June 2008, 09:37
???

ferrari got their 1-2 but it should have been kimi with the win. instead massa recieved some good luck and won the race. having said that he did well to qualify so close to kimi with one more lap of fuel.

In fact he had 3 more laps of fuel in quali, he lost one lap when he went for another try while Kimi aborted his, plus he stayed out 2 more laps after Kimi's pit stop.

However he wasn't fast enough during the race, and he conceded he was lucky to win.

janneppi
23rd June 2008, 09:47
In fact he had 3 more laps of fuel in quali, he lost one lap when he went for another try while Kimi aborted his, plus he stayed out 2 more laps after Kimi's pit stop.


According to tv commentators, Kimi was improving his time in his last attempt, 2 tenths in the first point and 4(ish) in the second point, but when Massa failed to get past Kimi, he was instructed to save fuel and abort his lap.

ioan
23rd June 2008, 10:20
According to tv commentators, Kimi was improving his time in his last attempt, 2 tenths in the first point and 4(ish) in the second point, but when Massa failed to get past Kimi, he was instructed to save fuel and abort his lap.

I guess we will never know, however your commentators are way off given that Kimi was quoted saying that it might have been 2 tenths better (which in fact was the advantage after the 2nd sector).

janneppi
23rd June 2008, 10:46
Yeah, the commentators who do the re-run broadcasts aren't the best available. :)

Valve Bounce
23rd June 2008, 10:47
. and can you please for once go through a post without commenting about super aguri? ;)

Well, I can tell you the Bombers won big time yesterday at the 'G'. When the Blues hit the front in the last quarter, the Carlton fans went berserk and I thought we were done. But our guys dug deep, and just played that extra bit harder, won the ball, and piled on the goals. In front of 59,000 fans (not great by our standards mind you) the Bombers ran away to win by 35 points. How sweet it is. :up:

ten-tenths
23rd June 2008, 10:53
Well, I can tell you the Bombers won big time yesterday at the 'G'. When the Blues hit the front in the last quarter, the Carlton fans went berserk and I thought we were done. But our guys dug deep, and just played that extra bit harder, won the ball, and piled on the goals. In front of 59,000 fans (not great by our standards mind you) the Bombers ran away to win by 35 points. How sweet it is. :up:

cheers!!! go bombers!!!

ten-tenths
23rd June 2008, 10:57
In fact he had 3 more laps of fuel in quali, he lost one lap when he went for another try while Kimi aborted his, plus he stayed out 2 more laps after Kimi's pit stop.

However he wasn't fast enough during the race, and he conceded he was lucky to win.

i thought he pitted right after kimi? oh well.. they are very close. i hope they dont pull what maclaren did last season and let someone else win the WDC.

ioan
6th July 2008, 15:17
Time to bring this thread up again!

This is even worse than what they showed in Oz. :down:

They clearly went for a dry track setup! What were they thinking? That with 80% chance of rain it will dry up?!

Losing Ross Brawn does hurt them a lot!
And the drivers are clearly no Michael Schumacher (you know the one driving as fast on slicks in the rain as Hill was on wet tires).

wedge
6th July 2008, 15:50
Time to bring this thread up again!

This is even worse than what they showed in Oz. :down:

They clearly went for a dry track setup! What were they thinking? That with 80% chance of rain it will dry up?!

Losing Ross Brawn does hurt them a lot!
And the drivers are clearly no Michael Schumacher (you know the one driving as fast on slicks in the rain as Hill was on wet tires).

I've said that all along.

Brawn got it spot on for Rubens

Ferrari need someone on pitwall who's prepared to roll the dice on strategy instead of dithering.

It's quite clear the Ferraris were set up for the dry and they wore out their inters quicker and they still let Kimi go backwards.

markabilly
6th July 2008, 15:53
I've said that all along.

Brawn got it spot on for Rubens

Ferrari need someone on pitwall who's prepared to roll the dice on strategy instead of dithering.

It's quite clear the Ferraris were set up for the dry and they wore out their inters quicker and they still let Kimi go backwards.
At the first pit stop, they did not change tires, just gas. I guess they thought that would put them in front of hamilton, but all the good that did.

ioan
6th July 2008, 15:54
Now that the race is over let's go back to the poorest strategists on the grid, the Ferrari ones.

1. They went for a rather dry set-up on a day when there was a 80% chance for rain! :down:

2. At the first stop they leave both drivers on worn intermediates with more rain predicted in few minutes! :down: Were trying to copy Alonso's strategy given that they didn't have their own one?! :mad:

2. At half race they put Kimi on intermediates and filled him to the end of the race, with changing conditions! :down:

It's a miracle he managed to get 4th in these conditions after being all over the place due to wrong tire choices.

There's need for a change in the Ferrari team, Domenicalli as a leader is poor by any standards, and his decisional team is appallingly bad. :(

ioan
6th July 2008, 15:56
At the first pit stop, they did not change tires, just gas. I guess they thought that would put them in front of hamilton, but all the good that did.

Nah, they can't be so stupid, everyone knows that changing tires takes only 4 seconds, so it will be over long before refueling.

As I said they were copying Alonso's strategy because they didn't had their own one.

On hindsight Alonso to Ferrari would help them a lot, they would get a top driver and a better strategist than the ones they have at the moment, all in one combo package! :D

truefan72
6th July 2008, 16:01
Now that the race is over let's go back to the poorest strategists on the grid, the Ferrari ones.

1. They went for a rather dry set-up on a day when there was a 80% chance for rain! :down:

2. At the first stop they leave both drivers on worn intermediates with more rain predicted in few minutes! :down: Were trying to copy Alonso's strategy given that they didn't have their own one?! :mad:

2. At half race they put Kimi on intermediates and filled him to the end of the race, with changing conditions! :down:

It's a miracle he managed to get 4th in these conditions after being all over the place due to wrong tire choices.

There's need for a change in the Ferrari team, Domenicalli as a leader is poor by any standards, and his decisional team is appallingly bad. :(

I can't beleive I am saying this...but bring back the frenchman.
I would like to see a good fight on the track rather than a victory based on extremely poor strategy.

My hat off to raikkonen who performed a minor miracle bringing that car to 4th. Either there was something wrong with massa's car ( probably) or he simply can't perform in less than ideal situations (i.e. leading the race or driving in good weather) how he couldn't get past dfisichella for laps on end is beyond me. But, he is tied for the lead so there's that.

Tazio
6th July 2008, 16:13
I blame it all on Designer Paul :D
He shows up talking down the Mac's to the point
that a hard core Ferrari fan such as myself starts defending them.
Thanks Paul

markabilly
6th July 2008, 16:23
Nah, they can't be so stupid, everyone knows that changing tires takes only 4 seconds, so it will be over long before refueling.

As I said they were copying Alonso's strategy because they didn't had their own one.

On hindsight Alonso to Ferrari would help them a lot, they would get a top driver and a better strategist than the ones they have at the moment, all in one combo package! :D
I thought maybe a short fill, to get them by hamilton and then wait for a dramactic change in weather to happen very soon. Problem was that Kimi's tires already looked smoked while in the pits.....so I thought what the heck is going on??

Looks like they should have copied Brawn's strategy instead.......almost a second and third for Brawn but for fuel rig issues and Jen running off track

F1boat
6th July 2008, 16:46
Still, after a most horrible race, the place on their car in front of the 2nd McLaren driver. They need to improve their strategy, though.

ioan
6th July 2008, 17:29
Still, after a most horrible race, the place on their car in front of the 2nd McLaren driver. They need to improve their strategy, though.

As pointed out by others, they are lucky to have the best car and drivers. Otherwise with their very very poor strategy they wouldn't be leading both championships.

jens
6th July 2008, 21:14
One thing is puzzling me. If Ferrari was on a dry setup, then why were they so slow in qualifying in dry conditions? 6th and 8th in Q2 and Räikkönen didn't manage more than P3 in Q3. Surely there are some other issues? Btw, Räikkönen was moving quite well before his first stop (which means the setup couldn't be that bad) - later he dropped to nowhere with poor strategy and to some extent with his own spins.

Anyway. As long as Ferrari is leading the championships, they are not going backwards. :p : If the pace of Ferraris won't be good enough for top positions, then that would be alarming!

ioan
6th July 2008, 21:33
Btw, Räikkönen was moving quite well before his first stop (which means the setup couldn't be that bad) - later he dropped to nowhere with poor strategy and to some extent with his own spins.

He was going welll before the 1st pitstop exactly because the track was drying up and thus his set-up was better suited to it. ;)

Why do you think he strated losing time an spinning around as soon as it rained again?

jens
6th July 2008, 21:57
If Kimi was going well in damp conditions, then you'd suggest he would have blown the field away in bone dry conditions? Why didn't this happen in qualifying? What happened in quali?

A lot of drivers were spinning, so I wouldn't read too much into Kimi's spins specifically.

ten-tenths
6th July 2008, 22:47
well, thank goodness i didnt see this race or i would have been pissed. Ferrari making another mistake behind the pitwall?!

and as others mentioned rubens on the podium just highlights the effect of ross brawn can have during a race.

another point is the pace of mclaren during this last race weekend and the testing the week prior to silverstone. they clearly had some developments to the car that ferrari could not match. the gap ferrari enjoyed before is not there anymore. i dont think they afford to make mistakes and get away with it anymore.

having said all that it is shocking that both their drivers are tied for the lead.

Shalafi
7th July 2008, 07:05
[quote="jens"]If Kimi was going well in damp conditions, then you'd suggest he would have blown the field away in bone dry conditions? Why didn't this happen in qualifying? What happened in quali?
/QUOTE]

Kimi has said many times (at least in Finnish television) that he has problems getting everything out from the car in qualifying and Ferrari is much better suited to race than in quali (as he has showed pacewise, because before Silverstone Kimi had fastest lap in race in previous 5 GP :s !!). So that explains it. Also he was very confident about winning the race had it been a dry race.

gravity
7th July 2008, 11:18
Kimi has said many times (at least in Finnish television) that he has problems getting everything out from the car in qualifying and Ferrari is much better suited to race than in quali (as he has showed pacewise, because before Silverstone Kimi had fastest lap in race in previous 5 GP :s !!). So that explains it. Also he was very confident about winning the race had it been a dry race.

The graphic showing speeds thru sector 1 shows that the Ferrari had one of the slowest top speeds of the front runners (suggesting more wing)
I noticed the diff in sector 1 was 306 for HK, 294 for KR.
This seems to suggest a higher downforce/wet setup compared to the other teams.
Being confident about winning the race if it was a dry one could mean that he doesn't rate himself as a wet weather driver (which I doubt), or he knows that the rain will nullify his car advantage over the rest of the field.

ioan
7th July 2008, 11:38
The graphic showing speeds thru sector 1 shows that the Ferrari had one of the slowest top speeds of the front runners (suggesting more wing)
I noticed the diff in sector 1 was 306 for HK, 294 for KR.
This seems to suggest a higher downforce/wet setup compared to the other teams.


Or maybe he was going slower because his set-up for dry conditions didn't allow him to go full throttle on the wet track?!



Being confident about winning the race if it was a dry one could mean that he doesn't rate himself as a wet weather driver (which I doubt), or he knows that the rain will nullify his car advantage over the rest of the field.

being confident that he could have won in the dry also means that he knew that he had car set-up for dry conditions!
After all he was faster when the track was drying and slower when it was damp!

Just my 2 cents and a bit of properly applied logic! ;)

gravity
7th July 2008, 12:47
Or maybe he was going slower because his set-up for dry conditions didn't allow him to go full throttle on the wet track?!
Those speed trap readings were taken on Saturday when the track was dry, suggesting that he had a comprimised setup for those conditions.



being confident that he could have won in the dry also means that he knew that he had car set-up for dry conditions!
hmmmm... or he knew that he doesn't have the confidence that the other drivers have in the wet.


After all he was faster when the track was drying and slower when it was damp!

Maybe you mean he was faster when the track was damp and slower when it was fully wet?
KR set the fastest lap of the race... 10 seconds slower than the times he was setting in dry conditions during practice... suggesting the track was still pretty greasy. The worst time to drive on a drying track is when its greasy. That's where a setup tweaked for wet conditions give you the upper hand. KR seemed to shine then.

When the track was fully wet (roosters behind the cars) it doesn't matter too much what u've done to your setup, it's driver skill that counts in those conditions (assuming you are on the same tyre as your opposition... and your tyres are in the same condition)