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gloomyDAY
21st June 2008, 08:09
STR is my favorite team and both drivers are very gifted.

Le Seb has experience and finesse, but Der Seb has raw pace. As of right now both drivers have points! Vettel 5 & Bourdais 2. Both drivers know Magny-Cours very well, so my guess is that French GP will be the deciding factor on who will sparkle for the rest of the season.

I'll tip my hat in favor of Vettel.
Chime in people! :)

Valve Bounce
21st June 2008, 08:20
STR is my favorite team and both drivers are very gifted.

Le Seb has experience and finesse, but Der Seb has raw pace. As of right now both drivers have points! Vettel 5 & Bourdais 2. Both drivers know Magny-Cours very well, so my guess is that French GP will be the deciding factor on who will sparkle for the rest of the season.

I'll tip my hat in favor of Vettel.
Chime in people! :)

Sorry that my enthusiasm doesn't go in that direction - mine ended with Super Aguri.

BUT!! Keep the faith!! As long as they don't run into DC, there's hope!! :p :

cy bais
21st June 2008, 16:39
Bourdais for me (that's just my CC bias). But since SA folded, I've been rooting for ToroRosso.

Nikki Katz
21st June 2008, 16:47
I'm afraid that I think that Bourdais' F1 days are numbered. He had a great start to the season and has still outqualified Vettel more often than not. But recently he's looked completely outclassed by Vettel, who is constantly mentioned in relation to bigger teams.
I'm pretty sure that if Toro Rosso are still about in the same form next year then they'll field Senna. Vettel will have the other seat if he's still around, but he'll likely have moved to Red Bull. Possibly Bourdais will be retained with the team trying to keep some sort of consistency, but before the season even started the bosses were saying that he should really be on the pace by about now in the season, instead he's moving backwards compared to his teammate.
I may be totally wrong but I've got a hunch that Piquet will be in the second seat.

jens
21st June 2008, 19:06
Vettel ahead this time. :) Hopefully tomorrow we will finally see a proper comparison between those two in a race. Der Seb has had some good race performances recently.

I tend to agree that Bourdais doesn't have a bright future and probably his F1 stint ends with STR too. His only chance to get a promotion into a better team was to blow Vettel away, but this hasn't happened. Being a match to him is not enough - teams still take a more serious look at a younger prospect. But getting beaten by him - well, alas the game will be over pretty soon with such scenario.

MDS
22nd June 2008, 02:57
I hope if Sebastien does leave he comes back to the ICWS. I know Europe is where he wants to be. But I really want to see if he could dominate a combined field the way I think he could.

Maybe Bourdais and Forythe in 2010?

F1boat
22nd June 2008, 12:09
What is ICWS?

Ranger
22nd June 2008, 12:17
What is ICWS?

IndyCar World Series. :)

gravity
22nd June 2008, 12:30
SB was ICWS champion last season ;)

MDS
22nd June 2008, 17:21
I think once they get a title sponsor we'll see the name change to "Sponsor Name" World Series next year.

gravity
22nd June 2008, 17:30
Like... PSW (Pepsi World Series)?

Bolton Midnight
23rd June 2008, 12:16
Bourdais isn't good enough for F1, usual shone in the States = crap in F1 situation happened before.

Teams need to ignore America it's a backwater for finding decent drivers.

Treat it more as a bit like the city guys do Hong Kong

FILTH

Failed in London try Hong Kong

Failed in F1 then go to America where you will shine as there's less good drivers to race against.

LTalbot
23rd June 2008, 21:03
Bourdais isn't good enough for F1, usual shone in the States = crap in F1 situation happened before.

Teams need to ignore America it's a backwater for finding decent drivers.

Treat it more as a bit like the city guys do Hong Kong

FILTH

Failed in London try Hong Kong

Failed in F1 then go to America where you will shine as there's less good drivers to race against.

Ok, say what you want about Bourdais, but there is not reason for you to insult an entire country. I can criticize America as we are not perfect, and frankly, for the last eight years our government has had it's head up it's A**. But without the USA you would most likely be speaking German now.

Bolton Midnight
24th June 2008, 03:45
But without the USA you would most likely be speaking German now.

Ahh that old chestnut, complete rubbish of course but if it makes you feel good about yourself then fair enough.

If we did speak German now, at least we'd not be in Iraq sorting out America's mess.

Single seater wise America is a backwater, always has been and always will be.

tintop
24th June 2008, 06:51
FILTH

Failed in London try Hong Kong

Failed in F1 then go to America where you will shine as there's less good drivers to race against.

Interesting, I'd suggest that you work on your own native language skills before you disparage the talents/qualities of former colonies. ;)

Yup, dual citizen here.

Rudy Tamasz
24th June 2008, 07:19
Bourdais has really been in a bad form throughtout the last races. But he's a very mature and mentally tough person. I hope he'll bounce back. Vettel is a strong competitor to beat, though.

ioan
24th June 2008, 09:12
Ahh that old chestnut, complete rubbish of course but if it makes you feel good about yourself then fair enough.

If we did speak German now, at least we'd not be in Iraq sorting out America's mess.

Single seater wise America is a backwater, always has been and always will be.

:rolleyes: :down:

Garry Walker
24th June 2008, 11:24
But without the USA you would most likely be speaking German now.

No, that would be russian that you would be speaking then.

Rudy Tamasz
24th June 2008, 11:57
Shut up guys or discuss vettel and Bourdais. Your exchange is just plain stupid.

keysersoze
24th June 2008, 12:14
Bourdais isn't good enough for F1, usual shone in the States = crap in F1 situation happened before.

Teams need to ignore America it's a backwater for finding decent drivers.

Treat it more as a bit like the city guys do Hong Kong

FILTH

Failed in London try Hong Kong

Failed in F1 then go to America where you will shine as there's less good drivers to race against.

Actual F1 drivers have enormous respect for drivers of other series, be it stock cars, Indycar, rallying, MotoGP, or even drag racing.

And to specifically refute this tired, inane notion, 7-time F1 winner, Indy 500 and CART champ Juan Montoya is having a difficult time in Sprint Cup at the moment.

Bolton Midnight
24th June 2008, 16:18
Always amusing when chatting to Americans who have watched too many films and start to believe they bailed us out in WW2, but lets face it we all know they are the world's village idiots.

Vettel > Bourdais

FACT

Bourdais looked good Stateside but then that means Jack on the grand scale of things.

SGWilko
24th June 2008, 16:25
Ok, say what you want about Bourdais, but there is not reason for you to insult an entire country. I can criticize America as we are not perfect, and frankly, for the last eight years our government has had it's head up it's A**. But without the USA you would most likely be speaking German now.

At least we'd still have an empire, and not have been crippled with debt to the US treasury.

When the Gulf/Afghanistan war is over, perhaps G Brown should bill dubyer a few trillion for our involvement? ;)

gloomyDAY
24th June 2008, 17:08
Thanks for ruining my thread over who's the better driver. :rolleyes:

Jerks!

ioan
24th June 2008, 17:13
Thanks for ruining my thread over who's the better driver. :rolleyes:

Jerks!

Agree with you, I was going to complain about the same thing.
I would like to ask the moderators to clean up this tread. Please, do remove all the posts that have no relevant relation to the Vettel vs Bourdais discussion.

janneppi
24th June 2008, 17:49
Back on topic guys and girls.

ioan
24th June 2008, 18:25
Thanks.

Tallgeese
24th June 2008, 18:37
I wouldn't agree.

Bourdais is the better of the two, & one must not forget that Vettel was lucky at Monaco, & Canada. One cannot also forget that Bourdais has had some problems with the car too, but is gradually finding pace. It's also worthy to note that both suffered almost as many retirements as finishes, & only scored points in high attrition races, & that seems to say that if Toro Rosso's reliability was sufficient on the day they'd finish in the Top 8. Remember, Bourdais was heading for 4th if I remember correctly until his mechanical break-down in Australia!

gloomyDAY
24th June 2008, 18:46
I wouldn't agree.

Bourdais is the better of the two, & one must not forget that Vettel was lucky at Monaco, & Canada. One cannot also forget that Bourdais has had some problems with the car too, but is gradually finding pace. It's also worthy to note that both suffered almost as many retirements as finishes, & only scored points in high attrition races, & that seems to say that if Toro Rosso's reliability was sufficient on the day they'd finish in the Top 8. Remember, Bourdais was heading for 4th if I remember correctly until his mechanical break-down in Australia!I thought Bourdais had the upper hand at the beginning of the season as well. My belief now is that Vettel seems to have settled into the STR3 far more comfortably than Bourdais. This past weekend was an insight into how the rest of the season will turn out. Both qualified next to each other, but Vettel had a better race pace.

Also, on your claim over points between the Seb's; Bourdais would have had a three-point advantage if the engine didn't blow in Australia. As you mentioned it was a race of high attrition, so comparing the two drivers is very difficult in that kind of race setting. That's why Magny-Cours was more indicative of the future at STR with the Seb's.

jens
24th June 2008, 19:31
Vettel is becoming a more mature and complete racing driver, hence he has been beating Bourdais in the last three races quite comfortably. I'd say Vettel may have been among the most impressive performers last time in France.

In Bourdais' case I think that after this experiment F1 teams will take drivers in North American series even less sesiously (if even a 4-time champ can't succeed, then who can?) and in the future it would be possible to get into F1 only via contacts (like Andretti rumours) as resultswise even an IndyCar title won't help in achieving F1 goal.

tintop
24th June 2008, 21:42
In Bourdais' case I think that after this experiment F1 teams will take drivers in North American series even less sesiously (if even a 4-time champ can't succeed, then who can?) and in the future it would be possible to get into F1 only via contacts (like Andretti rumours) as resultswise even an IndyCar title won't help in achieving F1 goal.

Kind of a sweeping statement to make based upon the last couple of races don't yah think?

pits4me
24th June 2008, 21:53
Seabass had the early edge (it was suggested on SPEEDTV he had no traction control experience to adjust from). Bourdais is used to a top tier team, not sure if that'll happen unless he replaces DC in RedBull-Renault next year.

Vettel knows the circuits and has good pace. I'd like to see him at BMW instead of Heidfield in 2009. I think STR is under new ownership next year and neither Seb will have a home there.

jens
24th June 2008, 22:09
Kind of a sweeping statement to make based upon the last couple of races don't yah think?

Well, if a 4-time champ of another series is hired, then he is logically expected to be a top-tier driver. If he isn't (we may argue, how good SB really is, but I don't think anyone thinks he is quite among the very best at the moment), then the reputation of the series, where he was previously driving, will almost inevitably fall. Don't you think? :)

Lemmy-Boy
25th June 2008, 02:24
Vettel is treated like a PRODIGAL SON for Torro Rosso and Red Bull. Whether he screws up or not, the team either 1) Makes a ton of excuses for his mistakes or 2) Gives him a ton of praise for what little he's actually achieved.

In retrospect, Vettel is simply a prime gimp (a.k.a Bitch) for Red Bull.

tintop
25th June 2008, 03:17
Well, if a 4-time champ of another series is hired, then he is logically expected to be a top-tier driver. If he isn't (we may argue, how good SB really is, but I don't think anyone thinks he is quite among the very best at the moment), then the reputation of the series, where he was previously driving, will almost inevitably fall. Don't you think? :)


Definition of spurious logic.

Ah, he's a rookie that has one or 2 bad races for a crap team that has trouble keeping their cars together. Making huge assessments of somebody’s potential based on these exogenous conditions over 8 races is laughable. Denigrating racing series from an entire continent based upon SB's debut is even more comic.

I guess that logic applies to formula 3000 as well - you know, since SB was a champion, it's reputation must be tarnished by his performance over the past 3 races.

gloomyDAY
25th June 2008, 03:54
Vettel is treated like a PRODIGAL SON for Torro Rosso and Red Bull. Whether he screws up or not, the team either 1) Makes a ton of excuses for his mistakes or 2) Gives him a ton of praise for what little he's actually achieved.

In retrospect, Vettel is simply a prime gimp (a.k.a Bitch) for Red Bull.I don't think Vettel is anyone's bitch. He gets on the track and does the best he can with deplorable equipment. If Red Bull wants to have Vettel as their driver at RBR, then isn't that a good thing?

ioan
25th June 2008, 08:47
Vettel is treated like a PRODIGAL SON for Torro Rosso and Red Bull. Whether he screws up or not, the team either 1) Makes a ton of excuses for his mistakes or 2) Gives him a ton of praise for what little he's actually achieved.

In retrospect, Vettel is simply a prime gimp (a.k.a Bitch) for Red Bull.

I didn't see the team being harsh on Bourdais either.

As for your last paragraph, it's not worthy of a civilized answer.

jens
25th June 2008, 12:34
Definition of spurious logic.

Ah, he's a rookie that has one or 2 bad races for a crap team that has trouble keeping their cars together. Making huge assessments of somebody’s potential based on these exogenous conditions over 8 races is laughable. Denigrating racing series from an entire continent based upon SB's debut is even more comic.

I guess that logic applies to formula 3000 as well - you know, since SB was a champion, it's reputation must be tarnished by his performance over the past 3 races.

You should know that F3000 didn't have a strong reputation in the end, that's partly why a new feeder series (GP2) was created.

One or two bad races? Out of the first eight races Bourdais has truly shined only for once - at the Australian Grand Prix. It doesn't mean other of his performances can be defined as "bad", but I'm sure more was expected from him.

The last Champ Car driver before Bourdais to get into F1 was da Matta 5 years ago - so doesn't quite indicate that CCWS was a highly rated feeder series. North American series already have a deteriorated reputation, especially as several champions haven't lived up to the expectations.

tintop
25th June 2008, 18:57
You should know that F3000 didn't have a strong reputation in the end, that's partly why a new feeder series (GP2) was created..

Give me a break, Webber the year before Alonso 2 seasons prior and Heidfeld 3 seasons back. Yeah, he came from a crappy series :laugh:


One or two bad races? Out of the first eight races Bourdais has truly shined only for once - at the Australian Grand Prix. It doesn't mean other of his performances can be defined as "bad", but I'm sure more was expected from him...

Come on, the car has let them both down at critical times - they only have a 50% completion record - that's not a lot of data -especially when measuring a driver that is new to a F1 car. They are even in qualifying.


The last Champ Car driver before Bourdais to get into F1 was da Matta 5 years ago - so doesn't quite indicate that CCWS was a highly rated feeder series. North American series already have a deteriorated reputation, especially as several champions haven't lived up to the expectations.

Add 2 years to that and you have a 7 time F1 winner with 30 podiums - oops. Vettel might prove to be better than Bourdais, he has been anoited the next big thing in F1, but your rationale for dismissing anybody that could migrate from a North American racing series is weak and unfounded.

Lemmy-Boy
25th June 2008, 21:01
I don't think Vettel is anyone's bitch. He gets on the track and does the best he can with deplorable equipment. If Red Bull wants to have Vettel as their driver at RBR, then isn't that a good thing?


It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Vettel is a Prime Gimp for Torro Rosso. For example, Berger is always in full praise or making lame excuses for his fellow Countryman since he's Austrian himself. Plus, isn't Red Bull (The Drink) owned by an Austrian as well?

Plus, there's never a harsh word or negative connotation relating to any of his performances (A stark contrast from the Liuzzi/Speed fiasco a year ago). Overall, Vettel is now being lubed up as a head Grimp for Red Bull F1 so his ascension doesn't surprise me. Coulthard needed to be dumped anyway.

jens
25th June 2008, 22:10
Give me a break, Webber the year before Alonso 2 seasons prior and Heidfeld 3 seasons back. Yeah, he came from a crappy series :laugh:

Come on, the car has let them both down at critical times - they only have a 50% completion record - that's not a lot of data -especially when measuring a driver that is new to a F1 car. They are even in qualifying.

Add 2 years to that and you have a 7 time F1 winner with 30 podiums - oops. Vettel might prove to be better than Bourdais, he has been anoited the next big thing in F1, but your rationale for dismissing anybody that could migrate from a North American racing series is weak and unfounded.

If you think IndyCar drivers have a good chance of getting into F1, then tell me, which IndyCar drivers will we see in F1 in the future? For example a few years ago Doornbos had a shot in F1 and showed some promise there, but after going to North America there hasn't been a single mention of him, which could have associated him with any F1 drive.

Yes, Montoya has won 7 times and was undeniably quick, but he was expected to be a Schumacher-beater, when he joined F1. Didn't happen.

You are exaggerating my claims. I don't mean F3000 was a "crappy" series, but you can't deny GP2 is a stronger feeder series. When talking about F3000's low tide, I mainly mean the very last years, when also the amount of teams and drivers was reducing. At highpoint around the year of 2000 and earlier there were more entries than positions on the starting grid. Back then it was a strong and attractive series.

tintop
25th June 2008, 22:59
Yes, Montoya has won 7 times and was undeniably quick, but he was expected to be a Schumacher-beater, when he joined F1. Didn't happen.

So a series is crap if it can't generate a racer that can take away a championship from the racer/team with the most wins in F1 history. :laugh:



You are exaggerating my claims. I don't mean F3000 was a "crappy" series, but you can't deny GP2 is a stronger feeder series. When talking about F3000's low tide, I mainly mean the very last years, when also the amount of teams and drivers was reducing. At highpoint around the year of 2000 and earlier there were more entries than positions on the starting grid. Back then it was a strong and attractive series.

You keep changing your story. Bourdais wins F3000 in the era of Alonso Webber + Heidfeld (within 3 years). You counter by saying that the 3 year old GP2 series is stronger - maybe it will be maybe it won't, what's the point? It didn't exist when the racer in question was racing.

jens
25th June 2008, 23:26
Alas we are going offtopic and need to turn back on the road. The main issues here actually aren't about Montoya or F3000 (btw, I don't measure the strength of this series by Bourdais if you thought this), but about IndyCar or more specifically - how seriously will F1 team principals consider IndyCar drivers in their future line-ups? So a direct question - how many drivers by percentage of all F1 rookies do you expect to come from IndyCar to F1 in the future?


So a series is crap if it can't generate a racer that can take away a championship from the racer/team with the most wins in F1 history. :laugh:


I don't understand, what are you trying to say with this sentence?
I think back then CART had a stronger reputation than it has now. And when we are talking about current situation, then this is IMO quite obvious that F1 teams consider GP2 drivers + their own development programme drivers more seriously in their future line-ups. You disagree?

jens
25th June 2008, 23:31
Alas we are going offtopic and need to turn back on the road. The main issues here actually aren't about Montoya or F3000 (btw, I don't measure the strength of this series by Bourdais if you thought this), but about IndyCar or more specifically - how seriously will F1 team principals consider IndyCar drivers in their future line-ups? So a direct question - how many drivers by percentage of all F1 rookies do you expect to come from IndyCar to F1 in the future?

gloomyDAY
26th June 2008, 02:16
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Vettel is a Prime Gimp for Torro Rosso. For example, Berger is always in full praise or making lame excuses for his fellow Countryman since he's Austrian himself. Plus, isn't Red Bull (The Drink) owned by an Austrian as well?

Plus, there's never a harsh word or negative connotation relating to any of his performances (A stark contrast from the Liuzzi/Speed fiasco a year ago). Overall, Vettel is now being lubed up as a head Grimp for Red Bull F1 so his ascension doesn't surprise me. Coulthard needed to be dumped anyway.So I take it that your response is a vehement "yes" to my question. Thank you!

Also, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that Austria is not the same as Germany. Your claim that Berger (Austrian) loves Vettel (German) because of being "fellow countrymen" is laughable.

Last year happened last year. What is it with you and being stuck in time? Scott is happy at ARCA and Liuzzi is kicking off his shoes over at Force India. We're talking about this season and which of the two STR drivers will have a better outcome at the end.

I don't think your insults are convincing anyone that Vettel is any less deserving driver than Bourdais. All you have done is make yourself look foolish by throwing insults and then claiming that it's a good thing Vettel is replacing Coulthard after denegrating the German.

tintop
26th June 2008, 05:46
I don't understand, what are you trying to say with this sentence?
I think back then CART had a stronger reputation than it has now. And when we are talking about current situation, then this is IMO quite obvious that F1 teams consider GP2 drivers + their own development programme drivers more seriously in their future line-ups. You disagree?

It's pretty simple, you made a curious statement regarding ex champ car racer Montoya not being that good in F1 despite his 30 podiums and 7 wins. Why? Because he didn't beat MS! This in turn was used to bolster your equally ridiculous proposition that North America can no longer be a source of F1 racers. - kind of like all of all of your other similarly well thought out arguments that originate from the premise that Bourdais isn't any good because Vettel has reached maturity over the last 3 races and bested him and therefore nobody will ever come from a NA series to F1 again (unless they are a legacy like Marco). Nice theses, done chasing the obfuscation - you seem to revel in it.

jens
26th June 2008, 10:51
It can't be said as strictly as nobody will ever come from North America, but their chances are not as good as for example the chances of GP2 drivers. You disagree? Give a proper answer.

The drivers, who have come from CART/Champ Car, did generally have a higher reputation before their F1 career than they have had after their F1 career. You disagree?

What are you trying to prove? That IndyCar drivers have a great chance of getting into F1? And you still haven't answered to my questions regarding for example which drivers from current IndyCar series may we expect to see in F1 in the future.

ioan
26th June 2008, 13:30
It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Vettel is a Prime Gimp for Torro Rosso. For example, Berger is always in full praise or making lame excuses for his fellow Countryman since he's Austrian himself. Plus, isn't Red Bull (The Drink) owned by an Austrian as well?

Vettel is not Austrian, but I'm not surprised by the bollocks you write as you clearly have little knowledge about F1 and your posts are proof to that.

F1boat
28th June 2008, 11:23
It can't be said as strictly as nobody will ever come from North America, but their chances are not as good as for example the chances of GP2 drivers.


Yes, but the Indy Car is not meant to be a feeder series like the Grand Prix 2. It is similar and yet different form of motorsport.

tintop
3rd July 2008, 02:01
Yes, but the Indy Car is not meant to be a feeder series like the Grand Prix 2. It is similar and yet different form of motorsport.

Yes true, but reality has no place in an arguement the likes of this :)

aryan
4th July 2008, 08:07
I rate Bourdais much higher.

Based on the team's comments, I get the feeling that they are revolving aroud Vettel and that the Bourdais choice was somehow forced upon them.

It never bodes well for a driver to feel alien in a team, and that is exactly how I believe Bourdais is feeling.