OT-Too Expensive??

[!!WALDO!!]

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/445260

Now move Surfer's.

[ykiki]

IIRC, wasn't the Surfer's Paradise race in March back when the Adelaide GP was the F1 season ender?

[!!WALDO!!]

IIRC, wasn't the Surfer's Paradise race in March back when the Adelaide GP was the F1 season ender?

I find it interesting that two races in Australia let us say, 4 weeks apart and what 800 miles is a problem but here a race 4 weeks apart and 125 miles isn't.

One must wonder.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[MDS]

I find it interesting that two races in Australia let us say, 4 weeks apart and what 800 miles is a problem but here a race 4 weeks apart and 125 miles isn't.

La Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile

[dataman1]

IIRC, wasn't the Surfer's Paradise race in March back when the Adelaide GP was the F1 season ender?

You are correct on CART racing there in the spring but can't speak to F1 as I did not follow it at the time.

[!!WALDO!!]

You are correct on CART racing there in the spring but can't speak to F1 as I did not follow it at the time.

You mean the fall in Australia. Since seasons are reversed.

[veeten]

I find it interesting that two races in Australia let us say, 4 weeks apart and what 800 miles is a problem but here a race 4 weeks apart and 125 miles isn't.

One must wonder.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

Basically, it is that with Cleveland & Mid-Ohio you have two races that are staged and promoted by two separate entities within the same sanctioning body, whereas the Austrailian(Albert Park) GP and Indy at Surfer's Paradise are held by two individual sanctioning bodies altogether.

Expecting FOM to rearange their schedule to accomodate IRL's race date is a lot like a dollar holding itself up for a dime.

Not happening, in any sense of the word, Waldo.

[!!WALDO!!]

Basically, it is that with Cleveland & Mid-Ohio you have two races that are staged and promoted by two separate entities within the same sanctioning body, whereas the Austrailian(Albert Park) GP and Indy at Surfer's Paradise are held by two individual sanctioning bodies altogether.

Expecting FOM to rearange their schedule to accomodate IRL's race date is a lot like a dollar holding itself up for a dime.

Not happening, in any sense of the word, Waldo.

One can't occur because of the other. Sanctions having nothing to do with it. The FIA is worried there are only so many fans and they cannot do both. Based on the story they are now not doing the Flying Circus so why not put Surfer's on the off the weekend of the U.S. Superbowl about 8 weeks away?

That's right we can't have races in the middle of summer in Australia.

[MDS]

The FIA is worried there are only so many fans and they cannot do both.

Not being able to schedule a race at Surfer's and Melborne has nothing to do with fan counts. The FIA's main purpose in life is to protect Forumla 1. Any other reason for the FIA doing anything is just spin.

Anything American is dispised by the European community and most of the people who run the F-1 have vary shades of anti-Americanism running through their personality. These are the people who are happy Scott Speed failed. These are the same people who want Sebastien Bourdias to fail because they see AOWR as vastly infeiror.

Helping move Surfer's to a time to a time that may be a better fit for the IRL is very low on things they would like to do do.

Also, don't forget that's a traditional weekend for the V-8 Supercars, and my understanding is they don't want the event to move either.

[!!WALDO!!]

Not being able to schedule a race at Surfer's and Melborne has nothing to do with fan counts. The FIA's main purpose in life is to protect Forumla 1. Any other reason for the FIA doing anything is just spin.

The IRL is a member of FIA as was the CCWS. Now what sanctioning body runs the Australian GP? HINT: It isn't FIA.


Anything American is dispised by the European community and most of the people who run the F-1 have vary shades of anti-Americanism running through their personality. These are the people who are happy Scott Speed failed. These are the same people who want Sebastien Bourdias to fail because they see AOWR as vastly infeiror.

So what does Australia have to do with Europe? You mean FIA or Bernie?
Bernie still remembers Bobby Rahal getting in his face saying "we will bury you". So it is Bernie and his supporters that hate AOWR but not the IRL because Indianapolis and the place at 16th and Georgetown is the only place in the U.S. that will be able to hold a F-1 race. So Bernie has hat in hand to the IRL. So if TG says, Surfer's in January or no go and Bernie throws a fit, then no U.S.G.P.


Helping move Surfer's to a time to a time that may be a better fit for the IRL is very low on things they would like to do do.

So TG saying more races in Feburary and March is low. Just in the last 10 days.


Also, don't forget that's a traditional weekend for the V-8 Supercars, and my understanding is they don't want the event to move either.

So they only race in the Spring and not in the Summer in Australia? They are "support" if they do not "support" then save your money. You know what? Money works 99.99% of the time.

[BobGarage]

strange... the IRL fans had been telling CCWS fans for years how CC was just the support race for V8 Supercars. But now its the IRL running there suddenly the tune is changed and they claim V8 superscars are back as the support series ;)

[!!WALDO!!]

strange... the IRL fans had been telling CCWS fans for years how CC was just the support race for V8 Supercars. But now its the IRL running there suddenly the tune is changed and they claim V8 superscars are back as the support series ;)

Strange, I never heard that? If they have a good following then they are a stronge "support" series that helps financially rather "suck" money from the event, then good. If not well.

If they don't want to come then stay home. That simple.

[MDS]

The IRL is a member of FIA as was the CCWS. Now what sanctioning body runs the Australian GP? HINT: It isn't FIA.

Yeah, but for any race outside of the US you need FIA approval. Good luck racing with out it.



So Bernie has hat in hand to the IRL. So if TG says, Surfer's in January or no go and Bernie throws a fit, then no U.S.G.P.

I'm sorry, I laughed for a good five minutes to that. Berine Ecclestone, head of the most powerful racing series in the world kowtows to Tony George, and absolutely needs his blessing in order to succeed. Wow.

So many things are wrong with this statement I just don't know where to start. First of all F-1 does not need the USGP. They don't. It's just not that important. It's not massively important to their sponsors and viewership is minimal.


So TG saying more races in Feburary and March is low. Just in the last 10 days.

What? I'm sorry, but that sentence just doesn't make any sense. "More races in Feburary and March is low?" What do you mean by this. It physically doesn't make any sense on any level. And "Just in the last 10 days." is a sentence fragment, so again, I don't know what you're saying.

I'd expect more from someone who called out my spelling once.


So they only race in the Spring and not in the Summer in Australia? They are "support" if they do not "support" then save your money. You know what? Money works 99.99% of the time.

They are a support race that is responsible for 30 to 40 percent of the total weekend draw. Its not like they're Indy Lites. You can't just dismiss it out of hand.

[ykiki]

Strange, I never heard that? If they have a good following then they are a stronge "support" series that helps financially rather "suck" money from the event, then good. If not well.

If they don't want to come then stay home. That simple.

Basically, the popularity of the V8 Supercar series in Australia is similar to the popularity of NASCAR in the US. Not hard to see why some would call an IndyCar race a "support" race to the V8 Supercars.

[!!WALDO!!]

Yeah, but for any race outside of the US you need FIA approval. Good luck racing with out it.

I see you did not answer the question.


I'm sorry, I laughed for a good five minutes to that. Berine Ecclestone, head of the most powerful racing series in the world kowtows to Tony George, and absolutely needs his blessing in order to succeed. Wow.

I laughed for 20 minutes that you will not being a U.S. G.P. unless he does. Me, I frankly don't care either way and if Surfer's goes because of it so be it.


So many things are wrong with this statement I just don't know where to start. First of all F-1 does not need the USGP. They don't. It's just not that important. It's not massively important to their sponsors and viewership is minimal.

Oh I see, the F-1 sponsors are all hoping for the one TV in Chad to be watching the race. I think Fox ans Speed should drop their coverage of F-1 due to no interest. 4,000,000 are watching in GB and twice that are watching "Are you smarter than a fifth grader" on the same network here.

The largest FREE MARKET in the world is "just not that important". Now that is funny.



What? I'm sorry, but that sentence just doesn't make any sense. "More races in Feburary and March is low?" What do you mean by this. It physically doesn't make any sense on any level. And "Just in the last 10 days." is a sentence fragment, so again, I don't know what you're saying.

I'd expect more from someone who called out my spelling once.

Oh yes you do because those are your words. Not mine.

Yes but I wasn't sweeping a pit box at age 13 at IMS either. Again your words.


They are a support race that is responsible for 30 to 40 percent of the total weekend draw. Its not like they're Indy Lites. You can't just dismiss it out of hand.


They don't want to race for money then they can be dismissed easily.

[BobGarage]

They don't want to race for money then they can be dismissed easily.

Sorry Waldo, but that statement shows how little you know about the popularity and power that the v8s hold in Australia and how little you know about the situation with the Surfers event.

Without the V8's surfers would not happen. It has for a few years now, pulled a lot more to the event that CC. There are now a lot of people that go just for the event... to get drunk for the weekend and just don't care about the racing. Without the v8 supercars this event would not happen. That was not the case in the begining of surfers but it is now.

The v8's don't want to change surfers in their schedule and without their blessing TG isn't going to be able to do anything about it. If he wants to race at Surfers he will do so in October.

[MDS]

I see you did not answer the question.

Does it matter? The race is sanctioned by the Confederation of Australian Motor Sport, which is a member organization of La Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile.


I laughed for 20 minutes that you will not being a U.S. G.P. unless he does.

Seriously, if you want to hold any kind of conversation at some point you need to start making sense. No idea what that sentence means.


Oh I see, the F-1 sponsors are all hoping for the one TV in Chad to be watching the race. I think Fox ans Speed should drop their coverage of F-1 due to no interest. 4,000,000 are watching in GB and twice that are watching "Are you smarter than a fifth grader" on the same network here.

I don't understand how viewership in England relates to the United States.

Most F-1 races air live at 8 a.m. in American and are all under 1.0 The audience that supports F-1 in America is less tiny compared to the world wide population.

Speed and Fox aren't paying a lot of for the broadcast rights, and mostly use someone elses feed, so its a pretty cheap setup.


The largest FREE MARKET in the world is "just not that important". Now that is funny.

Most of those companies that dump money into F-1 are European based. Renault backs two teams and I don't believe they have any North American operations. Like Renault, a number of the sponsors don't have any American branding or affilation. Petronas, Vodafone, Kingfisher, none of them have any US businessm, for them North American races are just a loss leader.


Yes but I wasn't sweeping a pit box at age 13 at IMS either. Again your words.

If it's that important to you I can dig the picture out of my parent's attic and scan it for you when I go home for Thanksgiving.

[!!WALDO!!]

Sorry Waldo, but that statement shows how little you know about the popularity and power that the v8s hold in Australia and how little you know about the situation with the Surfers event.

Got an idea then, let them run and the Indy Cars can race somewhere else. Clears up scheduling problems and then the IRL can go to Brazil.


Without the V8's surfers would not happen. It has for a few years now, pulled a lot more to the event that CC. There are now a lot of people that go just for the event... to get drunk for the weekend and just don't care about the racing. Without the v8 supercars this event would not happen. That was not the case in the begining of surfers but it is now.

I was just saying, if they do not want to run for money then so be it. Look I have used popular forms of support at tracks I promoted at. Without them I would have had half the crowd. They must understand though they are support and not the primary focus. There is always a rub. Ever run across that problem in shows you did? How did you handle it? I had to explain the facts of life of that day to them.


The v8's don't want to change surfers in their schedule and without their blessing TG isn't going to be able to do anything about it. If he wants to race at Surfers he will do so in October.

Then I think the race will never be more than an exhibition. Never any points. Thus as important as a boil on the rear of the sport. Again those facts of life need to be explained.

[MDS]

Then I think the race will never be more than an exhibition.

OMG you stated an opinion as your own opinion and not as a fact. Good for you. Just do it every other time you post now and people will think higher of you.

[!!WALDO!!]

Does it matter? The race is sanctioned by the Confederation of Australian Motor Sport, which is a member organization of La Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile.

So the IRL is a member organization of ACCUS with is the United States member of the FIA and the Indianapolis 500 is one of the few U.S. races that is a full FIA race.



Seriously, if you want to hold any kind of conversation at some point you need to start making sense. No idea what that sentence means.

Again your words not mine. Read your words thus it make sense.



I don't understand how viewership in England relates to the United States.

The whole world is watching but most the world is in survival mode so 4,000,000 in England may represent a 1/3 of what is watching.


Most F-1 races air live at 8 a.m. in American and are all under 1.0 The audience that supports F-1 in America is less tiny compared to the world wide population.

So how many are watching in China since they have a 7 day work week and the race is on Monday?


Speed and Fox aren't paying a lot of for the broadcast rights, and mostly use someone elses feed, so its a pretty cheap setup.

Bernie runs the deal and gets good money. What I think is interesting is the German Company that had the World rights, went broke because of this deal.


Most of those companies that dump money into F-1 are European based. Renault backs two teams and I don't believe they have any North American operations. Like Renault, a number of the sponsors don't have any American branding or affilation. Petronas, Vodafone, Kingfisher, none of them have any US businessm, for them North American races are just a loss leader.

And 40 teams in Cup are getting more money and exposure for their sponsors than 22 cars in F-1. Those 40 are getting close to $700,000,000


If it's that important to you I can dig the picture out of my parent's attic and scan it for you when I go home for Thanksgiving.

Don't bother, I found your own words. Enjoy.


My first ever job was cleaning up the Forsythe pit space and being a gopher for them back in 1983 when I was 13. I got paid the whopping sum of $10 a day for three weeks during May. Then did a year working on PR/driver's PA for Arciero-Wells in 1999 which went on to become PPI and then switch to NASCAR after the 2000 season. I didn't want be be on the road as much as NASCAR requires so I moved to Patrick racing.


Yeah, I should clarify I was never in the pits, and was only in the garage area during when cars weren't on the track, a few times at night when pretty much everyone else had gone home, but I was still techincally paid for "Sweeping on the garage," as my uncles got there start that way and thought it was an important right of passage. Largely it was just away for my uncle to give me some walking around cash and to encourage me to help look out for the younger kids, because my cousins and I did a lot of baby sitting.
All I can say is there are rules, and then there is enforcement of rules. My brother and cousins, including the girls, and I all have pictures of us doing it. The reasons behind this is my uncle saw this as a right of passage, it's a good story, and probably because it sounds good in an interview.

Now that I think about it though I've never actually been a live garage at Indy. We did sneek in one year after the end of the race. I think in 1993 or 1994. We found a spot in the fence and jumped it. Once we got in no one said anything to us. I remember we were going to lie and claim our parents worked for Team Penske.

[!!WALDO!!]

OMG you stated an opinion as your own opinion and not as a fact. Good for you. Just do it every other time you post now and people will think higher of you.

Is it or is it not and exhibition race this year? Does the ABC deal run through 2009? If so then either it is moved to early in the year or it is a exhibition.

No opinion, just the facts. Contracts are strong.

[MDS]

So the IRL is a member organization of ACCUS with is the United States member of the FIA and the Indianapolis 500 is one of the few U.S. races that is a full FIA race.

So that relates to Surfer's how? Seriously, why ask who sanctions Surfer's if you're just going to bring it back to this. The two things are in no way related.


Again your words not mine. Read your words thus it make sense.

How does what I wrote make your horrible grammar make sense?




The whole world is watching but most the world is in survival mode so 4,000,000 in England may represent a 1/3 of what is watching.

Again, fail to see what this has to do with Surfer's



So how many are watching in China since they have a 7 day work week and the race is on Monday?

Nope, nothing to do with moving Surfer's here



Bernie runs the deal and gets good money. What I think is interesting is the German Company that had the World rights, went broke because of this deal.

Again, nothing related to the topic.


And 40 teams in Cup are getting more money and exposure for their sponsors than 22 cars in F-1. Those 40 are getting close to $700,000,000

Nothing on topic here.

What you do is you take a subject so far afield to someplace you ether know well or can make up figures to avoid talking about initial thread. Its called hijacking and trolling.

Don't bother, I found your own words. Enjoy.

It just rubs you raw that I was actually there and did it. You admit to getting tossed of the garage when you were a kid, but the idea that a crewmember might actually sneak his relatives for an experience is completey unthinkable.

Sorry, I was there. I know what I did. Don't know why that chaps your rear so much. And why you have to bring it up. I'm not going to take crap from guy who allegedly was a "Big time promoter" yet writes like a six year old text messaging and refuses to provide any specifics about their promoting background.

[!!WALDO!!]

So that relates to Surfer's how? Seriously, why ask who sanctions Surfer's if you're just going to bring it back to this. The two things are in no way related.

The point of the thread was a link to an article that the F-1 race is going away. This frees up Surfer's.



How does what I wrote make your horrible grammar make sense?

Your words, not mine.


Again, fail to see what this has to do with Surfer's

It has to do with F-1 and stuff you said. This thread is about a date going off the schedule after 2010.


Nope, nothing to do with moving Surfer's here

It has to do with F-1 and stuff you said. This thread is about a date going off the schedule after 2010.



Again, nothing related to the topic.

It has to do with F-1 and stuff you said. This thread is about a date going off the schedule after 2010.


Nothing on topic here.

What you do is you take a subject so far afield to someplace you ether know well or can make up figures to avoid talking about initial thread. Its called hijacking and trolling.

It has to do with F-1 and stuff you said. This thread is about a date going off the schedule after 2010.



It just rubs you raw that I was actually there and did it. You admit to getting tossed of the garage when you were a kid, but the idea that a crewmember might actually sneak his relatives for an experience is completey unthinkable.

Yes but your words tell me a lot. AGE 21. "Hey kid are you 19?" Yup! "Get out you have to be 21". That is what happen, I never made it in. 1970.


Sorry, I was there. I know what I did. Don't know why that chaps your rear so much. And why you have to bring it up. I'm not going to take crap from guy who allegedly was a "Big time promoter" yet writes like a six year old text messaging and refuses to provide any specifics about their promoting background.

Oh yes, but I can spell Phoenix. You in a post asked about your own creditablity because I am ignoring you. I showed you three posts of yours that the story changed each time. Find three of my posts where I changed the story three times to cover myself. I am going back to ignoring you as I have in other places.

Back on Topic: It is too bad that F-1 is leaving Australia but with the amount of money paid out annually to Bernie it is going to fall to the oil rich countries. This is a lesson about making things to expensive without a way to getting the numbers back to something reasonable.

[MDS]

Yes but your words tell me a lot. AGE 21. "Hey kid are you 19?" Yup! "Get out you have to be 21". That is what happen, I never made it in. 1970.


Oh, you're unhappy that you got caught and I didn't. I gotcha.

[!!WALDO!!]

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/445260

Since this the topic.......

[Spiderman]

The whole world is watching but most the world is in survival mode so 4,000,000 in England may represent a 1/3 of what is watching.


Perhaps you're an expert in American Racing History, but you don't seem to know to much about forumula 1.
Okay, 4 million viewers in England, we also 6 to 7 million viewers every race in germany. Then italy might have same ratings as england because of Ferrari,
Spain because of Alonso, Finnland with Raikkönen and you can expect also a lot of polish people because of Kubica.
So there is france with Renault. F1 is also very popular in South America, expecially in brazil.
And in Japan there are also a lot of f1 fans.
So I thin that would make a lot more than 12,000,000 watching formula one races...
In fact after soccer world cup and olympic games, f1 is the most popular sport in the world and its sucess doesn't depend on a United States Grand Prix!
It's well known that some US-americans think, everything in the wolrd is about the United States, but that's not the case...

[!!WALDO!!]

Perhaps you're an expert in American Racing History, but you don't seem to know to much about forumula 1.
Okay, 4 million viewers in England, we also 6 to 7 million viewers every race in germany. Then italy might have same ratings as england because of Ferrari,
Spain because of Alonso, Finnland with Raikkönen and you can expect also a lot of polish people because of Kubica.
So there is france with Renault. F1 is also very popular in South America, expecially in brazil.
And in Japan there are also a lot of f1 fans.
So I thin that would make a lot more than 12,000,000 watching formula one races...
In fact after soccer world cup and olympic games, f1 is the most popular sport in the world and its sucess doesn't depend on a United States Grand Prix!
It's well known that some US-americans think, everything in the wolrd is about the United States, but that's not the case...

Well then Bernie wanted it and according to rumors put out by Varsha and Hobbs the U.S.G.P. will be on the schedule for 2009 and at Indianapolis.

Again if your numbers are true then why did the company that owned the rights to F-1 go broke? A German company at that.

TV ratings at best are a guess. If you watch a race and you are not tied in then you do not count.

In the U.S. the average home as over three TVs so this is the market that needs to be reached not Chad. See places like Chad are part of the worldwide audience.
There are more places and people struggling to survive than watch F-1.

It is Bernie's little "song and dance" because it is now his TV and nobody else will take it.

[NickFalzone]

I would not be surprised if there was 12-14 mill viewers worldwide for every F1 race. There's no regulation of the ratings outside of Nielsen markets so I would not put any confidence in "official" numbers. That said, its still a few million more than NASCAR and a heck of a lot more than IndyCar, so as a series F1 is doing fine as far as viewership. Don't forget that many of these markets have no choice but to watch F1 or soccer, unlike more industrialized countries where you have anywhere from 100-500 channels to choose from. That's why you'll find the US has a much wider variety of sports fanbases and (potentially) discriminating taste. If all you've got on the tube growing up is soccer and european road-racing, then that's probably all you'll be a fan of.

[Spiderman]

Well then Bernie wanted it and according to rumors put out by Varsha and Hobbs the U.S.G.P. will be on the schedule for 2009 and at Indianapolis.

Again if your numbers are true then why did the company that owned the rights to F-1 go broke? A German company at that.

TV ratings at best are a guess. If you watch a race and you are not tied in then you do not count.

In the U.S. the average home as over three TVs so this is the market that needs to be reached not Chad. See places like Chad are part of the worldwide audience.
There are more places and people struggling to survive than watch F-1.

It is Bernie's little "song and dance" because it is now his TV and nobody else will take it.
If you really want to compare europe with the chad, that tells a lot about you...
Here in Germany we have 5 to 6 million watchers in a a normal f1 race. And when they race in brazil or canada and the races are shown in rpime time, there usually are 10 million viewers. And that's Germany alone. And we don't even have a race winner in the formula one grid of 2008.
How much audiance do you think, f1 can gt in the US if you're optimistic? 1 Million, 2 Millions? And now compare it with the European Union. There alone we have more than halb a billion inhabitants. And f1 here is by far the most watched form of racing, and as a single discipline number two behind soccer!

So you know how important is North America compared to Europe. Formula ne will never be succuseful in the US with one or two races in North America, mostly road races and a lot of european and south american drivers. So if you add verything together, it's nice to have a us race, but if not, it isn't that big problem, beause nobody in the US will watch it. The only advantage ist, we can watch it here in europe in prime time...

[Spiderman]

I would not be surprised if there was 12-14 mill viewers worldwide for every F1 race. There's no regulation of the ratings outside of Nielsen markets so I would not put any confidence in "official" numbers. That said, its still a few million more than NASCAR and a heck of a lot more than IndyCar, so as a series F1 is doing fine as far as viewership. Don't forget that many of these markets have no choice but to watch F1 or soccer, unlike more industrialized countries where you have anywhere from 100-500 channels to choose from. That's why you'll find the US has a much wider variety of sports fanbases and (potentially) discriminating taste. If all you've got on the tube growing up is soccer and european road-racing, then that's probably all you'll be a fan of.
Every European country has its method measuring tv ratings, here in germany it's the "GfK". And we have a lot opportuneties of watching sports and motorsports. if you take motorsports there are the motorcycling world championship and the WTCC, both you can watch europe wide at "eurosport" (a pan-euopean-sports-channel) for free. They also show the rallye-world-championship and the LeMans Series.
Here in Germany we also have a very successful national toringcar championship named DTM with 1 or maximum 2 million viewers per race in a country with 80 Million inhabitants.
And about soccer. There is so much to watch. If you like that, you can watch it nearly seven days a week. There are also a couple of very popular tennis tournaments, cycling (very popular in western and southern europe) and so on... And nothing but all formula one is very successful here...

[!!WALDO!!]

If you really want to compare europe with the chad, that tells a lot about you...
Here in Germany we have 5 to 6 million watchers in a a normal f1 race. And when they race in brazil or canada and the races are shown in rpime time, there usually are 10 million viewers. And that's Germany alone. And we don't even have a race winner in the formula one grid of 2008.
How much audiance do you think, f1 can gt in the US if you're optimistic? 1 Million, 2 Millions? And now compare it with the European Union. There alone we have more than halb a billion inhabitants. And f1 here is by far the most watched form of racing, and as a single discipline number two behind soccer!

So you know how important is North America compared to Europe. Formula ne will never be succuseful in the US with one or two races in North America, mostly road races and a lot of european and south american drivers. So if you add verything together, it's nice to have a us race, but if not, it isn't that big problem, beause nobody in the US will watch it. The only advantage ist, we can watch it here in europe in prime time...


The interest is World wide, not Europe or a couple of countries in South America. We have over 300,000,000 TV's in the country with that many people. Now do you not think they want to reach some of those?

Now only 6,000,000 are true hardcore race fans and this past weekend through out the large events, and 700 local tracks under 400,000 were out there watching racing in some form with a ticket. TV between the televised events, 7 of them (F-1 included) less than 7,000,000 will have watched. Half of those NASCAR.

So in a Country of 300,000,000 this past weekend how many people watched or went to a race, around 7,250,000. I watched 6 of those races or parts there of. So, in reality less than 7,000,000.

Also in the 17 races of F-1 you will only get a little less than 2,000,000 people to attend. In the U.S. NASCAR over 38 point races and 2 special dates will draw 4,700,000. So the numbers per event are close to the same.
On three day shows, the numbers go well past 7,000,000 and F-1 to around 3,000,000.

The point I am making is maybe you numbers are right but here on Fox, F-1 would be lucky to get 625,000 viewers out of 300,000,000 possible people.
So in Europe, Brazil and a few other places yes F-1 does well but the world does not end there.
In the U.S. it is .02 that are race fans, world wide it is .0002.

[Spiderman]

The interest is World wide, not Europe or a couple of countries in South America. We have over 300,000,000 TV's in the country with that many people. Now do you not think they want to reach some of those?

F1 has a long tradition in europe, south america, in australia and in parts of asia (Japan). I think that's very important markets for them.
If the want to be successful in the United States, it isn't done with one US Grand Prix. They had to have perhaps half of their races in the US with a couple of sucessful driveras from the US. Then they maybe can compete against NASCAR. But if they would do it, they would lose in these arias, they are traditional successful. Or do you know one league in sports, that's sucessful in europe and in the US?



Now only 6,000,000 are true hardcore race fans and this past weekend through out the large events, and 700 local tracks under 400,000 were out there watching racing in some form with a ticket. TV between the televised events, 7 of them (F-1 included) less than 7,000,000 will have watched. Half of those NASCAR.

So in a Country of 300,000,000 this past weekend how many people watched or went to a race, around 7,250,000. I watched 6 of those races or parts there of. So, in reality less than 7,000,000.

Also in the 17 races of F-1 you will only get a little less than 2,000,000 people to attend. In the U.S. NASCAR over 38 point races and 2 special dates will draw 4,700,000. So the numbers per event are close to the same.
On three day shows, the numbers go well past 7,000,000 and F-1 to around 3,000,000.

The point I am making is maybe you numbers are right but here on Fox, F-1 would be lucky to get 625,000 viewers out of 300,000,000 possible people.
So in Europe, Brazil and a few other places yes F-1 does well but the world does not end there.
In the U.S. it is .02 that are race fans, world wide it is .0002.
Perhaps most of them like other forms of racing. And whio likes f1 style raod racing un the U.S. can follow GrandAm, ALMS, a couple of IndyCar races, formula atlantic - all with american drivers. So you're draming if you state, there are possible 300.000 f1 fans.

About TV ratings:
http://www.gpbrasil.com.br/siteGPe/noticia.asp?id=267


By Castilho de Andrade*

Brazil was the highlight of the 2007 edition of the Formula One Global Broadcast Report, a comprehensive and thorough account published by FOM - Formula One Management - based on audience figures of the 17 races of the Formula 1 season, which were seen in nearly 200 countries. With 119 million viewers last year – 24% more than in 2006 – Brazil has surpassed China to become the country with the largest internal Formula 1 TV audience.

The 2007 Brazilian Grand Prix, on October 21st in São Paulo, was the international sporting event with largest audience in the world, with an average of 78 million viewers and a peak of 152 million viewers worldwide, according to international consultancy agency “Initiative Sports Future”.

In Brazil, “TV Globo” had an average audience of 26 points and peaks of 31 points during the race that decided the 2007 World Championship, where three drivers brought the title decision to the last round, in one of the most exciting clashes in the history of the category. The only sporting attraction that outperformed the Brazilian Grand Prix was the Superbowl in
the United States, an event with more than 90% of its audience within American territory and thus considered to be a national event.

In Spain, fans of Fernando Alonso gave the Brazilian Grand Prix the second highest audience of the year, with 8.4 million viewers. Its audience was just slightly below the match between Barcelona and Liverpool, in the UEFA Champions League, with 8.6 million viewers.

The introductory text to the 2007 Formula One Global Broadcast Report states, in one of its paragraphs, that "the growth of the audience was substantial in several new markets like India and Poland, as well as in already established markets such as Britain, Spain and particularly Brazil, which achieved extraordinary results."

In total, including people who watched various races, Formula 1 reached in 2007 the mark of 597 million viewers around the planet. Market analysts who had access to the Global Broadcast Report and to the data from the “Initiative Sports Future”, conclude that the Formula 1 is now the best vehicle in globalized sports media. FOM monitored a total of 11.183 hours of F-1 in TV networks that have the rights to motor sport’s main category, of which 5.169 hours were of live images.

I thin, that's a lot, and a lot more than NASCAR. And if you only count, the fans at the track. How much do you pay for a NASCAR-ticket? Last time when I attendet a formula one race here in europe (a couple of years ago) i paid around 200,- Euros for three days for a seat far away from start/finish and from seeing the whole track.
What is this in US dollars: 300? So f1 is very exclusive, while NASCAR is more for the whole family...

[!!WALDO!!]

F1 has a long tradition in europe, south america, in australia and in parts of asia (Japan). I think that's very important markets for them.
If the want to be successful in the United States, it isn't done with one US Grand Prix. They had to have perhaps half of their races in the US with a couple of sucessful driveras from the US. Then they maybe can compete against NASCAR. But if they would do it, they would lose in these arias, they are traditional successful. Or do you know one league in sports, that's sucessful in europe and in the US?

You will find in the future, less Europe and more "who can afford it" countries thus world wide. So with 6 billion plus what is 15M in the equation? Nothing.


Perhaps most of them like other forms of racing. And whio likes f1 style raod racing un the U.S. can follow GrandAm, ALMS, a couple of IndyCar races, formula atlantic - all with american drivers. So you're draming if you state, there are possible 300.000 f1 fans.

Although many could disagree but American Road Racing is nearly dead. Of the 600,000 Hard core Open Wheel fans less than 1/6 are Road racing fans. If I am not telling the truth then explain the 75 that showed up in Utah for ALMS.


About TV ratings:
http://www.gpbrasil.com.br/siteGPe/noticia.asp?id=267

Been studing them for years, if they are a guess here with Neilsen then it is a bigger guess world wide.


I thin, that's a lot, and a lot more than NASCAR. And if you only count, the fans at the track. How much do you pay for a NASCAR-ticket? Last time when I attendet a formula one race here in europe (a couple of years ago) i paid around 200,- Euros for three days for a seat far away from start/finish and from seeing the whole track.
What is this in US dollars: 300? So f1 is very exclusive, while NASCAR is more for the whole family...

Depending on the track a Friday truck, Saturday Nationwide and Sunday Cup you will pay well past $200 and see the whole track. Difference between NASCAR and F-1 is the $200 is pure profit. Bernie is said to want $35,000,000 in 2009. $300 times 100,000 equals how much.

I know it is not important that a show makes money but NASCAR and the IRL shows make money, all 17 Flying Circus shows do not. So it really doesn't matter what you pay ticket wise it does not help the bottom line.

Bernie got his, thats all that matters.

So with a limited number of seats at a Cup race the demand is higher than the supply thus higher ticket prices. Now that is exclusive.

[Spiderman]

I can't explain your 75 ALMS-fans, because all i know about US racing is what i know about IndyCars I(follow this, since Nigel Mansell came over in 1993) i think it's hardly enough leading the pickems here...

So when US americans are not road racing fans, why should they follow formula one? And why should f1 work on the american market, when there is no chance to make it there. I believe, they tried it since f1 was invented in the 1950s, there sometimes had races in the US, but they never were successful there. And nothing but all f1 is the second most successful sport worldwide after soccer (what also means nothing in the US!)

And for f1 heading to asia, most european fans are very unlucky with it...

[!!WALDO!!]

I can't explain your 75 ALMS-fans, because all i know about US racing is what i know about IndyCars I(follow this, since Nigel Mansell came over in 1993) i think it's hardly enough leading the pickems here...

It died and nobody knows it yet.


So when US americans are not road racing fans, why should they follow formula one? And why should f1 work on the american market, when there is no chance to make it there. I believe, they tried it since f1 was invented in the 1950s, there sometimes had races in the US, but they never were successful there. And nothing but all f1 is the second most successful sport worldwide after soccer (what also means nothing in the US!)

I personally could care less about F-1 in the U.S. or the Max/Bernie wars are any of the so called talent on the series. Here in this country history is littered with series that attempted to be successful on the "road" now as dead as squid on the beach. Why, a lack of fans.


And for f1 heading to asia, most european fans are very unlucky with it...

What ever that means. Wait to Chavez and Nigeria want a F-1 race. They can afford it, the rest of the world cannot.

[Spiderman]

Isn't Chavez a sponsor of Ernesto Viso, is he?
For me that sounds very strange, remembering the conflicts between your government and mr. Chavez. Wether Mr. Chavez would come to Indy, if Viso wins it...

Yes okay, CART is dead. I think, that's sad because I very much enjoyed it when I had the opportunety to watch it live at the track in 2001 and 2003. But 2003 wasn't the same anymore, for sure.
Hopefully IndyCarRacing no can recover and will become a little like 1993 or like when Zanardi dominated this sport.

F1 has a lot of talent. The reason is as simple as why the best american drivers are in NASCAR: The earn more many there than they could do in every other form of racing. The max/bernie wars are not the main thing in f, it's a little bit like olympics, you want (not me, i never liked Schumacher) want to see your country winning. Most fans are driver fans or team fans (Ferrari), and the "show" isn't that important. It never was in f1!

So I don't think Bernie doesn't know, Americans don't like f1. Maybe he tries it sometimes because, some manufactors want to race there, but my opinion is, if they want to sell cars in the US, they have to race NASCAR...

[!!WALDO!!]

Isn't Chavez a sponsor of Ernesto Viso, is he?
For me that sounds very strange, remembering the conflicts between your government and mr. Chavez. Wether Mr. Chavez would come to Indy, if Viso wins it...

He has the money to do F-1 that is the point.


Yes okay, CART is dead. I think, that's sad because I very much enjoyed it when I had the opportunety to watch it live at the track in 2001 and 2003. But 2003 wasn't the same anymore, for sure.
Hopefully IndyCarRacing no can recover and will become a little like 1993 or like when Zanardi dominated this sport.

Ever hear of Formula 5000, CanAm, Trans-Am? Very successful in their day but died because of a lack of interest. Look up the history of the first CanAm Champion, Sir. John Surtees.


F1 has a lot of talent. The reason is as simple as why the best american drivers are in NASCAR: The earn more many there than they could do in every other form of racing. The max/bernie wars are not the main thing in f, it's a little bit like olympics, you want (not me, i never liked Schumacher) want to see your country winning. Most fans are driver fans or team fans (Ferrari), and the "show" isn't that important. It never was in f1!

Really is talent or equipment? I always found it to be equipment. Explain James Hunt and Jody Scheckter.


So I don't think Bernie doesn't know, Americans don't like f1. Maybe he tries it sometimes because, some manufactors want to race there, but my opinion is, if they want to sell cars in the US, they have to race NASCAR...

That is true.

[!!WALDO!!]

Easy, Utah. :D


(That's a joke folks, don't any Utah citizens get upset.)

Built and spent a load of coin for 75 people.

[Spiderman]

He has the money to do F-1 that is the point.

Chavez or Viso? In every division of racing money is important for rookie-drivers to find a seat. There is no difference between F1, NASCAR or IndyCars, but if you want a car to win, bringing money isn't enough...




Ever hear of Formula 5000, CanAm, Trans-Am? Very successful in their day but died because of a lack of interest. Look up the history of the first CanAm Champion, Sir. John Surtees.

I think, CART died because lack of Indianapolis and Indianapolis lost a lot because lack of CART...



Really is talent or equipment? I always found it to be equipment. Explain James Hunt and Jody Scheckter.

Equipment is important, because racing is a technical sport. It isn't the other way around in IndyCars. Why do win Penske, Ganassi and AGR every oval race? But you have to be a competetive driver to get a seat in a winning car. And even if you get one, it isn't said, you are winning races...
Scheckter was very good at Tyrrell and Wolf before heading to to Ferrari and Hunt was lucky, but he wasn't a bad driver at all...

[!!WALDO!!]

Chavez or Viso? In every division of racing money is important for rookie-drivers to find a seat. There is no difference between F1, NASCAR or IndyCars, but if you want a car to win, bringing money isn't enough...

Yes but in NASCAR Sprint Cup merit gets the seat at this point. The IRL existing teams is pretty much merit, the CCWS teams that swung over is both merit and cash.




I think, CART died because lack of Indianapolis and Indianapolis lost a lot because lack of CART...

CART died because of their own stupidity and the 500 is still there. It lost because the times changed and the generational issues of going to the race are not as important. Numbers to be truthful have been dropping slightly every year from 1987 on.


Equipment is important, because racing is a technical sport. It isn't the other way around in IndyCars. Why do win Penske, Ganassi and AGR every oval race? But you have to be a competetive driver to get a seat in a winning car. And even if you get one, it isn't said, you are winning races...Scheckter was very good at Tyrrell and Wolf before heading to to Ferrari and Hunt was lucky, but he wasn't a bad driver at all...

Nope but Scheckter would not have won a World Championship with Tyrrell or Wolf. Hunt was lucky but it helped he was with the team that year otherwise he would have been just another driver that drove in F-1.

Winning is being in a position to win. That simple and that easy. Good teams understand that and other teams struggle to get there.

[BobGarage]

Yes but in NASCAR Sprint Cup merit gets the seat at this point. The IRL existing teams is pretty much merit, the CCWS teams that swung over is both merit and cash.


the top 4 or 5 teams in cup yes, but there are plenty of teams that will take pay drivers. Just look at the white cars at the back of the field!

For the IRL, so Mutoh didn't get his AGR seat becuase of Hondas backing (see "Formula Dream")? I think with the existing IRL teams it is the same some merit some cash Duno/Bell at DRR both bring money and are not there on merit. Same as the former CC teams GH/JW are in on merit. Camera, Viso, Bernoldi etc in on cash.

In all it is the same. Some merit, some cash.

[!!WALDO!!]

the top 4 or 5 teams in cup yes, but there are plenty of teams that will take pay drivers. Just look at the white cars at the back of the field!

Not ride buyers, I hate to break it to you. Just the Team funding the effort.


For the IRL, so Mutoh didn't get his AGR seat becuase of Hondas backing (see "Formula Dream")? I think with the existing IRL teams it is the same some merit some cash Duno/Bell at DRR both bring money and are not there on merit. Same as the former CC teams GH/JW are in on merit. Camera, Viso, Bernoldi etc in on cash.

In all it is the same. Some merit, some cash.

Yes, some merit, some cash. So of the IRL Teams, Mutoh and former CCWS teams Camera, Viso, Bernoldi etc in on cash.

Bet they will not be back next year and car count will be 22 or less.

[Spiderman]

Yes but in NASCAR Sprint Cup merit gets the seat at this point. The IRL existing teams is pretty much merit, the CCWS teams that swung over is both merit and cash.

Bringing as sponsor with you is also cash. And you can't tell me, nobody is in NASCAR because of his personal sponsor... And by the way: How many f1 drivers in 2008 are their bacause of money?



CART died because of their own stupidity and the 500 is still there. It lost because the times changed and the generational issues of going to the race are not as important. Numbers to be truthful have been dropping slightly every year from 1987 on.

I don't think, it is that simple...



Nope but Scheckter would not have won a World Championship with Tyrrell or Wolf. Hunt was lucky but it helped he was with the team that year otherwise he would have been just another driver that drove in F-1.

Winning is being in a position to win. That simple and that easy. Good teams understand that and other teams struggle to get there.
Castroneves probably would not have won two Indy 500s if he had not joined Penske. Why Mutuh leads the rookie standings in IRL?
And why Hendrick in 2007 dominated NASCAR and this year it is so hard for them to win races - with all their cars? The drivers?
But both, Scheckter and Castroneves, got their seats because of their merits. Scheckter never would had driven the Ferrari, without wthat he did at Tyrrell and Wolf.
Hunt never would have been at McLaren without his performance at Hesketh the year before. Every team wants the best driver possible and every driver wants to be in the best possible team. So at the and the best drivers nearly always get the best cars. Some times they need a little luck, but never in formula one history a second class driver has won the championship because of the best car. For example Hunt. Why didn't Regazzoni in the second Ferrari win the cc. The Ferrari was the best car in 1976. And why Jochen Mass in the second McLaren failed even to win a race?
Probably not every year the best driver wins the championship, but that is racing. It's alway a combination of driver, team and car...
Last year is a good example. McLaren would never had lost the championship, if they did not worked against their own driver.

[!!WALDO!!]

Bringing as sponsor with you is also cash. And you can't tell me, nobody is in NASCAR because of his personal sponsor... And by the way: How many f1 drivers in 2008 are their bacause of money?

Name a personal sponsor in NASCAR. I can't. Yea, Villenueve was to bring a sponsor but it never materized and his ride ended. He by the way was the first I heard of.



I don't think, it is that simple...

So if you are running 5 laps down with 10 to go you have a chance of winning?


Castroneves probably would not have won two Indy 500s if he had not joined Penske. Why Mutuh leads the rookie standings in IRL?

Still no Titles and a second in a race helps rookie points.


And why Hendrick in 2007 dominated NASCAR and this year it is so hard for them to win races - with all their cars? The drivers?

It is competition.


But both, Scheckter and Castroneves, got their seats because of their merits. Scheckter never would had driven the Ferrari, without wthat he did at Tyrrell and Wolf.

How many World Titles did Scheckter win? One with an outstanding Ferrari.


Hunt never would have been at McLaren without his performance at Hesketh the year before. Every team wants the best driver possible and every driver wants to be in the best possible team. So at the and the best drivers nearly always get the best cars. Some times they need a little luck, but never in formula one history a second class driver has won the championship because of the best car. For example Hunt. Why didn't Regazzoni in the second Ferrari win the cc. The Ferrari was the best car in 1976. And why Jochen Mass in the second McLaren failed even to win a race?

1976 was a competitive year but still McLaren was the better car.


Probably not every year the best driver wins the championship, but that is racing. It's alway a combination of driver, team and car...
Last year is a good example. McLaren would never had lost the championship, if they did not worked against their own driver.

Recent history but what team was the best last year?

[!!WALDO!!]

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/445260




Where the topic actually lies.

[veeten]

oh, really?...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20509.html

[!!WALDO!!]

oh, really?...

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20509.html

"The Australian Grand Prix, beset by speculation that its contract won't be renewed by Formula One organizers after 2010, received a rebuke closer to home Wednesday."

[Spiderman]

Name a personal sponsor in NASCAR. I can't. Yea, Villenueve was to bring a sponsor but it never materized and his ride ended. He by the way was the first I heard of.

So, you have your example...



So if you are running 5 laps down with 10 to go you have a chance of winning?

So, you don't go 5 laps down without a reason...



Still no Titles and a second in a race helps rookie points.

And a seat in a top team, or why do you think, Ganassi, Penske and AGR drivers hiolding the first 8? 9? positions in the championship. By the way. Mutoh led the rookie points even before Iowa...


It is competition.

Ah, the other drivers became so much better during the winter?
There is still a technical aspect, in NASCAR too...



How many World Titles did Scheckter win? One with an outstanding Ferrari.

The Ferrari was good thus year, but outstanding? Williams scored a couple of wins, Ligier was also good in 1979. And yes, he came close to the championship before, when he didn't have the best car.



1976 was a competitive year but still McLaren was the better car.

Ferrari won the constructers championship....



Recent history but what team was the best last year?
Ferrari. But they only won the championship because McLaren didn't work together as a team.

And yes you are right, it is very importtant which car you are driving. But you don't get the best car, if you are not a good driver (except your manaher is the son of Jean Todt...)

[veeten]

operative word being 'speculation'... not to mention the article being referrenced is now a week old.

Let us know when there is a signed agreement between the Austrailian government, FIA, and FOM/CVC to terminate the Grand Prix from 2010 onwards.

Thank you.

[!!WALDO!!]

So, you have your example...

One does not make many.


So, you don't go 5 laps down without a reason...

Really what reason? In some cases you just aren't fast enough. You know Richard Petty came from 5 laps down and won by 5 at Dover? That is being in the right place to win.


And a seat in a top team, or why do you think, Ganassi, Penske and AGR drivers hiolding the first 8? 9? positions in the championship. By the way. Mutoh led the rookie points even before Iowa...

Your point is?


Ah, the other drivers became so much better during the winter?
There is still a technical aspect, in NASCAR too...

Kyle Busch wins, then how can they win? Competition is tougher and NASCAR wants that.


The Ferrari was good thus year, but outstanding? Williams scored a couple of wins, Ligier was also good in 1979. And yes, he came close to the championship before, when he didn't have the best car.
Who won? The best car right?



Ferrari won the constructers championship....

Because of Lauda



Ferrari. But they only won the championship because McLaren didn't work together as a team.

How is that? Driver must carry the day. Team once the race is on does only the chinese fire drill.


And yes you are right, it is very importtant which car you are driving. But you don't get the best car, if you are not a good driver (except your manaher is the son of Jean Todt...)

That is why Minardi is gone.

[!!WALDO!!]

operative word being 'speculation'... not to mention the article being referrenced is now a week old.

Let us know when there is a signed agreement between the Austrailian government, FIA, and FOM/CVC to terminate the Grand Prix from 2010 onwards.

Thank you.

When the government says no more you can pretty much bet on it. This is not a new story it actually broke before this years race and Bernie just shrugged his shoulders.

[!!WALDO!!]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080625/SPORTS/806250459/1004

Another rumor bites the dust.

[garyshell]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080625/SPORTS/806250459/1004

Another rumor bites the dust.


Really? Doesn't sound like Joey is shoveling any dirt on the grave just yet.



Chitwood did not rule out the possibility of a race for next year as F-1’s schedule won’t be confirmed until the fall, but he said it gets “tougher and tougher every day” to make it happen.





Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

Really? Doesn't sound like Joey is shoveling any dirt on the grave just yet.





Gary


It isn't on the 2009 schedule yet and they have until the fall. No sponsor and not willing to put up $35,000,000.

That tells me Joey and TG got the shovel ready.

[Spiderman]

One does not make many.

Im sure, you've read all the driver contracts...



Really what reason? In some cases you just aren't fast enough. You know Richard Petty came from 5 laps down and won by 5 at Dover? That is being in the right place to win.

Yeah and in some reasons it's just two laps and just a penalty - but under the right circumstances you win anyway.
It's the same with the CART-product. Tehere was nothing wrong with it on the track at least untill 2001, except losing Indy...



Your point is?

That being in the right team at the right time isn't formula one specific.



Kyle Busch wins, then how can they win? Competition is tougher and NASCAR wants that.

Sure, NASCAR does want it to be a driver's championship, but nevertheless being in the right time is also important.



Who won? The best car right?

By one point and with a lot of luck and only because of team orders in brazil.
The second driver in the best car became fourth...



Because of Lauda

The drivers championship was won by Hunt because of the car and the constuctor's championship by Ferrari because of the driver.
Maybe you should learn to to concede that you are wrong.
The reason Ferrari won the CWM was not Lauda scoring more points than Hunt but Regazzoni scoring more than Mass...



How is that? Driver must carry the day. Team once the race is on does only the chinese fire drill.

Perhaps the fact, english not being my native language is not helping to understand your sometimes...



That is why Minardi is gone.
Because of the Todt/Massa relationship?

[!!WALDO!!]

Im sure, you've read all the driver contracts...[/quoute]

Then name one on the Cup series that bought his way in.


Yeah and in some reasons it's just two laps and just a penalty - but under the right circumstances you win anyway.
It's the same with the CART-product. Tehere was nothing wrong with it on the track at least untill 2001, except losing Indy...

What was right about it? Most fans, real fans got tired of it by 1989.



That being in the right team at the right time isn't formula one specific.

History proves otherwise except for Fangio



Sure, NASCAR does want it to be a driver's championship, but nevertheless being in the right time is also important.

In 38 races fortunes change in half of that they tend to remain the same.



By one point and with a lot of luck and only because of team orders in brazil.
The second driver in the best car became fourth...

Ok, whatever.



The drivers championship was won by Hunt because of the car and the constuctor's championship by Ferrari because of the driver.
Maybe you should learn to to concede that you are wrong.
The reason Ferrari won the CWM was not Lauda scoring more points than Hunt but Regazzoni scoring more than Mass...

This thread is about the expense of an F-1 race that may not happen. Clay beating Jochen is important how?


Perhaps the fact, english not being my native language is not helping to understand your sometimes...

Pit stops.



Because of the Todt/Massa relationship?

Because Bernie bailed them out?

[Spiderman]

Then name one on the Cup series that bought his way in.

I didn't read the contracts. But hte other way around: The name in f1 that bought his way in?



What was right about it? Most fans, real fans got tired of it by 1989.

Why? Because a brazilian won the Indy500 and the championhsip?

I know a lot of fans who got excited later. Perhaps the crowd changed and became more international...



History proves otherwise except for Fangio

Who knows if the teams that won championships would have done this with other drivers. Would Benetton had won without Schumacher, Renault without Alonso? I doubt. Or long time ago, Brabham without Piquet (twice), Williams in 82 without Rosberg, Tyrrell without Stewart? Who knows...



In 38 races fortunes change in half of that they tend to remain the same.

That doesn't change the fact that you need the right team and car anyway.



This thread is about the expense of an F-1 race that may not happen. Clay beating Jochen is important how?

That a McLaren not automatically was faster than a Ferrari....



Pit stops.

Thanks... I will write "chinese drill" into my dictionary...



Because Bernie bailed them out?
[/QUOTE]
Lack of sponsors, less money...

[!!WALDO!!]

I didn't read the contracts. But hte other way around: The name in f1 that bought his way in?

Mark Webber, Justin Wilson


Why? Because a brazilian won the Indy500 and the championhsip?

Nope, lousy racing. If both Al and Emmo crashed, the race would still be going.


I know a lot of fans who got excited later. Perhaps the crowd changed and became more international...

Nope, no connection to the then 900 tracks that ran weekly shows.


Who knows if the teams that won championships would have done this with other drivers. Would Benetton had won without Schumacher, Renault without Alonso? I doubt. Or long time ago, Brabham without Piquet (twice), Williams in 82 without Rosberg, Tyrrell without Stewart? Who knows...

Yes but history does know.


That doesn't change the fact that you need the right team and car anyway.

I will change my opinion when Ferrari or McLaren does not win the title.



That a McLaren not automatically was faster than a Ferrari....

Your point?



Thanks... I will write "chinese drill" into my dictionary...

You're welcome, we restict the number of men over for safety reasons.


Lack of sponsors, less money...

and Bernie not going to bail out for another year. Do you know what happens if the number of teams falls below 8?

[Spiderman]

Mark Webber, Justin Wilson

Webber gets paid at RedBull, and Wilson is dricing IndyCars...



Nope, lousy racing. If both Al and Emmo crashed, the race would still be going.

There were a lot dnfs thus year. But even in the old times, there were big gaps from time to time...



Nope, no connection to the then 900 tracks that ran weekly shows.

They have more international fans?



Yes but history does know.

What does it know?
1950,1952,1955,1960,1961,1967,1978,1979,1984,1987, 1988,1989,1992,1996,1997*,2002,2004
That's the years when teammates finished first and second in the championship. In all other years minimum one driver findished between the world champion and his teammate in the same car. So it's hard to say, it's only the car. In this case, teammates everytime would finish first and second.
So it's 16 (17 if you count 1997) times out of 58!



I will change my opinion when Ferrari or McLaren does not win the title.

The last time it happend two years ago.



Your point?

There is no evidence for McLaren being better than the Ferrari this year.
ANd by the way: If the McLaren would have been the better car, that would work against your arguments, because Lauda in the Ferrari dominated 1976, until his accident.



You're welcome, we restict the number of men over for safety reasons.

Congraulations!



and Bernie not going to bail out for another year. Do you know what happens if the number of teams falls below 8?
[/QUOTE]
Bernie would found a team... But with the best ten teams getting a lot money from the foca there is no chance we will have less than 20 cars...

[!!WALDO!!]

Webber gets paid at RedBull, and Wilson is dricing IndyCars...

That is how both got to F-1.... A ride buy.



There were a lot dnfs thus year. But even in the old times, there were big gaps from time to time...

That's racing.



They have more international fans?

Nope, not enough drivers with names that can be pronounced.


What does it know?
1950,1952,1955,1960,1961,1967,1978,1979,1984,1987, 1988,1989,1992,1996,1997*,2002,2004
That's the years when teammates finished first and second in the championship. In all other years minimum one driver findished between the world champion and his teammate in the same car. So it's hard to say, it's only the car. In this case, teammates everytime would finish first and second.
So it's 16 (17 if you count 1997) times out of 58!

Yup I believe 1994 was the only year since 1908 and NASCAR not yet?



The last time it happend two years ago.

Good.


There is no evidence for McLaren being better than the Ferrari this year.
ANd by the way: If the McLaren would have been the better car, that would work against your arguments, because Lauda in the Ferrari dominated 1976, until his accident.

Look, you think that is racing. Here in this country it is contrived racing. Me, I frankly don't care, if you want to twist the history fine but it has always been a series for a few.



Congraulations!

Amazing 5 guys doing what an army of guys in 2 more seconds.



Bernie would found a team... But with the best ten teams getting a lot money from the foca there is no chance we will have less than 20 cars...

Better because otherwise the surviving teams would have to cough of another car.
After 2010, no customer cars there you go.

ALSO: THE AUSTRALIAN GP is on UNTIL 2015. An agreement was made and both Victoria and Bernie are happy. The race will not run at Night like the Europeans wanted but will start at 5:00PM local.

So we can close this thread.