With todays current fuel price climate, Synthetic Fuel.. the way forward?

[Zico]

Swift Syththetic Fuel

"Now here’s an interesting solution to the problem of reducing emissions using the same fleet of cars we have, but by using different fuel. Airplanes need high octane fuel and the octane rating has until now been achieved by adding tetraethyl lead, but that will be outlawed from 2010. Ethanol achieves the same octane rating boost but is unsuitable for use in aircraft. To solve the riddle, the newly announced SwiftFuel© uses ethanol to produce a designer fuel with a 104 octane rating that has no ethanol in it. It runs fine in any existing plane (or car), and is a low emission, alternative made entirely from biomass that has 15-20% more energy per litre than petrol, so your plane (or car) will get better mpg too. And it costs half as much to make as current petroleum manufacturing cost, selling for $2 a gallon less than gasoline. What’s the catch?"

Cont..



http://www.gizmag.com/designer-fuel-offers-more-mpg-less-emissions-less-cost/9467/


What do you make of this "wonder fuel" and what potential implications (if any) do you think this will have on the current fuel cost climate?

Im undecided but expect the goverment to tax its ass to fall inline with its natural cousin.

[Mark]

What's the catch? A fairly big one if you consider the land needed to grow it and the impact on food resources.

[Zico]

Fair comment, and Im aware of that... The world simply could not switch to this synthetic fuel and sustain current food crop output levels, but the point of my thread was to hear opinions on whether we could expect this alternative to have an impact on the current fuel prices?

Imo.. it could put a halt on the spiraling price of oil, something the government seems unwilling/uncapable of doing.

[Daniel]

Fair comment, and Im aware of that... The world simply could not switch to this synthetic fuel and sustain current food crop output levels, but the point of my thread was to hear opinions on whether we could expect this alternative to have an impact on the current fuel prices?

Imo.. it could put a halt on the spiraling price of oil, something the government seems unwilling/uncapable of doing.
I think OPEC are only accelerating their own decline. You are already seeing more fuel efficient cars becoming popular. People don't give a **** about oil or petrol. They just want something to make their cars go forward.

Opec are merely pushing people towards electric cars. Electricity can come from anywhere. Not just their sodding oil. China and India developing at a good pace will keep them in cash for a while longer but there will come a point where the world as a whole doesn't need oil on the scale they do now.

I won't be crying when that day comes.

[Mark]

Immediate impact on oil prices? None. Long term, who knows. But biofuels in general are not the answer to replace all of todays oil, there just isn't the available agricultural land, if only there were.

[MrJan]

The thing is Daniel that electric cars sound c**p :D Give me a Millington or BDA engined Escort over a G-Whizz eco-mobile any day.

[Breeze]

In this context, "biomass" is a fairly generic term. Biomass from what source? Is it new growth biomass, or waste biproduct biomass? How much is needed to produce enough fuel for the aviation industry now and in the forseeable future? For the entire world fleet of planes, trains and cars? I'm not as completely skeptical as Mark on the biomass issue, but do agree that using land currently allocated to food use is not a good solution. Is there an alternative?

[Zico]

Immediate impact on oil prices? None. Long term, who knows. But biofuels in general are not the answer to replace all of todays oil, there just isn't the available agricultural land, if only there were.

Hmm.. Here is an opinion (linked in Gizmag link) from someone who has links to the oil industry and reckons he knows a bit about it...

"Given that I know a little bit about the energy business, then, and I still have friends in it, here is what's going to happen over the next 2-3 years. The price of oil is going to come down substantially, but probably never to pre-9/11 price points. At least half of the current price for crude oil is driven by speculation and market manipulation as it was during the original oil crisis of 1973 (I have an interesting story about that in this week's links). But unlike '73, today our flexibility is less and our excess capacity is less, too. High prices will cut demand, spur exploration, and force governments to open new areas for exploration, but it is doubtful that we will EVER see oil prices under $60 per barrel again."



In this context, "biomass" is a fairly generic term. Biomass from what source? Is it new growth biomass, or waste biproduct biomass? How much is needed to produce enough fuel for the aviation industry now and in the forseeable future? For the entire world fleet of planes, trains and cars? I'm not as completely skeptical as Mark on the biomass issue, but do agree that using land currently allocated to food use is not a good solution. Is there an alternative?

Yep.. it seems that the Ethanol in question can be made of almost any type of 'Bio-mass' probably Sorghum which has yields of up to six times that per acre, of corn. ie..



"The ethanol used to make SwiftFuel can be any type, according to Mary Rusek, president of Swift Enterprises. The pilot plant they are building in Indiana will, interestingly, make ethanol from sorghum, not corn. The Ruseks claim that sorghum, which isn't a typical U.S. crop, can produce six times the ethanol per acre of corn, turning on its head the argument that ethanol production consumes more energy than it produces. China, the third largest producer of ethanol after Brazil and the U.S., is switching entirely to sorghum for its ethanol production.

The FAA is already testing SwiftFuel with the goal of approving it for use without modification in all aircraft, leaving the platform unchanged while improving its impact on almost any scale. Hopefully by the 2010 cutoff for tetraethyl lead SwiftFuel will replace the 1.8 million gallons of 100LL aviation fuel used every day.

"But what about cars?" I asked Mary Rusek. "We don't say much about that," she replied. "The aviation fuel market is tiny and has a real need we can fulfill so everyone wants us to succeed. Cars are different and we don't want to make any enemies."

I hope that SwiftFuel is a success. I hope it fulfills all Mary Rusek's claims. But if SwiftFuel doesn't succeed, I also hope that isn't because entrenched oil interests kill it. Yet I don't think many of us would be surprised if that is exactly what happens."

http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2008/pulpit_20080606_005036.html


Interesting last two paragraphs... :s I guess the Opec Mafia would do anything to protect their interests.

Does the info on Sorghum yields do anything to alter your opinion Mark?

[MrJan]

What's the catch? A fairly big one if you consider the land needed to grow it and the impact on food resources.

Another tick in the GM box? Not necessarily for food crops but perhaps for controlled growing of crops intended for BioFuel.


Edit: Hang on! I've just noticed that Zico is linking us to something called gizmag. I'm not sure I trust the legitimacy of something on the internet called 'giz mag'.

[Zico]

Edit: Hang on! I've just noticed that Zico is linking us to something called gizmag. I'm not sure I trust the legitimacy of something on the internet called 'giz mag'.


I think your confusing it with Jizz-mag.. :D

[MrJan]

I think your confusing it with Jizz-mag.. :D

It all sounds the same and it's filthy :p : :D ;)

[ioan]

In this context, "biomass" is a fairly generic term. Biomass from what source? Is it new growth biomass, or waste biproduct biomass? How much is needed to produce enough fuel for the aviation industry now and in the forseeable future? For the entire world fleet of planes, trains and cars? I'm not as completely skeptical as Mark on the biomass issue, but do agree that using land currently allocated to food use is not a good solution. Is there an alternative?

Yeah, gas!
The crap each of us produce could power a large part of the cars we use.
Than there is all the biomass that isn't use for feeding people or animals, could be also used to produce ethanol or methane.
And than there is solar, wind and hydro energy to be used too!

The question is only when will we start taking these alternatives seriously instead of burning fossil fuel?! Or why aren't we already using all these alternative energies full time?

[schmenke]

... but it is doubtful that we will EVER see oil prices under $60 per barrel again."...

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Dude, we will never see prices under $100.00! Take it from someone who works in the oil 'n gas industry.

[Daniel]

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Dude, we will never see prices under $100.00! Take it from someone who works in the oil 'n gas industry.
Blame Schmenke for inflation :p

[schmenke]

...And than there is solar, wind and hydro energy to be used too!...?

Solar and wind are not viable options. These two sources combined currently provide for less than 5% of the world's energy requirements. Both require huge areas of land that make them environmentally unfriendly, as well as very inefficient.

Hydro production, although with high capital costs, is cheap in the long term, not to mention clean. Hydro installations are obviously limited to a source of flowing water with sufficient flow rates to make them viable. Unfortunately there are increasingly fewer such water sources.

[schmenke]

Blame Schmenke for inflation :p

Yeah, but with the correct inputs, I can produce copious amounts of natural gas :p :

[Daniel]

Yeah, but with the correct inputs, I can produce copious amounts of natural gas :p :
Your wife says it smells like very UN-natural gas :mark:

[schmenke]

Odour varies with input...

[OWFan19]

Solar and wind are not viable options. These two sources combined currently provide for less than 5% of the world's energy requirements. Both require huge areas of land that make them environmentally unfriendly, as well as very inefficient.

Hydro production, although with high capital costs, is cheap in the long term, not to mention clean. Hydro installations are obviously limited to a source of flowing water with sufficient flow rates to make them viable. Unfortunately there are increasingly fewer such water sources.

Not true. Drive across Kansas and Nebraska, and you will see more and more wind farms. It takes up little space, farmers can still farm 99% of their land, and the wind is non stop.

Putting a small solar unit on every home, what would that do?

[Valve Bounce]

Fair comment, and Im aware of that... The world simply could not switch to this synthetic fuel and sustain current food crop output levels, but the point of my thread was to hear opinions on whether we could expect this alternative to have an impact on the current fuel prices?

Imo.. it could put a halt on the spiraling price of oil, something the government seems unwilling/uncapable of doing.

You could buy a shredder from Big W or Walmart for around twenty bucks, then mash the shredded paper up and invent a process for turning that into fuel. I'm sure the shredded credit card statements would increase the Octane rating considerably.

[Mark]

I think the oil price will come down, as others have said it's due to speculation, what it will come down too? I have no idea. It's quite probable the figure it will come down to is still more than the price today!

I think bio-fuels could be the answer but we are probably still some 20 years off having a solution which can produce sufficient volumes without crippling the worlds food infrastructure, until then it's going to be a bit of a struggle.

[Daniel]

I think the oil price will come down, as others have said it's due to speculation, what it will come down too? I have no idea. It's quite probable the figure it will come down to is still more than the price today!

I think bio-fuels could be the answer but we are probably still some 20 years off having a solution which can produce sufficient volumes without crippling the worlds food infrastructure, until then it's going to be a bit of a struggle.
Well there are a lot of startups doing good work.

http://www.dailytech.com/Startup+Uses+Bacteria+to+Make+Synthetic+Gas+Could+ Knock+Off+Ethanol/article12108.htm

[Breeze]

Yeah, but with the correct inputs, I can produce copious amounts of natural gas :p :
Unfortunately its a natural GREENHOUSE gas that destroys ozone like Sherman destroyed Atlanta. Then there's the cost and fuel expense of producing the input, delivering to the Schmenke pantry, cooking, etc. Better to stuff a hose up your dairy cow's chute. Cut out the middle man.