Bernie eyes breakaway

[CNR]

http://www.teletext.co.uk/sportnews/headlines/9f1b08b482ab51684789153b5cbdfa87/Bernie+eyes+breakaway.aspx


F1 supremo Bernie Ecclestone has admitted a breakaway championship, removed from the influence of FIA chief Max Mosley could become reality.

Bernie: Breakaway series is more than just talk (http://www.planet-f1.co.za/story/0,18954,3213_3696611,00.html)
Ecclestone opens door to breakaway (http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5iXQADtwzjAEPQbX7uVj34Kim_syg)

[F1boat]

Great, simply great. IRL and Champ Car all over again. I imagine how in ten years a unified Le Mans series has dramatically improved its popularity while two rival F1 and GP1 series has become a spec series of Ferrari and Mercedes-Benz.

[ArrowsFA1]

Is the breakaway a reality, or is Bernie playing is down. This report was in Autosport recently:
Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone has written to the FIA member clubs to play down suggestions of a possible breakaway championship.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68256

Whether the chances of a breakaway are real or not, the mere fact it's being talked about is just one of the consequences of Maxgate.

[Ranger]

Just smells like politics to me.

[F1boat]

I wonder how Max is to blame for Bernie's greediness, Arrows.

[ArrowsFA1]

I wonder how Max is to blame for Bernie's greediness, Arrows.
What greediness? It's to do with the reaction of manufacturers, teams and sponsors. Look at what Bernie says:
"A number of the manufacturers and teams along with their sponsors have stated that they thought the president should stand down..."
The fact that Max won the EGM vote has consequences. This is one of them.

[markabilly]

I wonder how Max is to blame for Bernie's greediness, Arrows.
Max is not, but maxgate is the excuse that Bernie is seeking to justify his latest attempts at greed:

"As far as the FIA president is concerned this has now been made clear and there is not a change in the position at this time," Ecclestone added.
"A number of the manufacturers and teams along with their sponsors have stated that they thought the president should stand down because of matters in his private life.
"This is their and only their opinion as they are not part of the FIA and therefore do not have votes."

Hence the excuse to try to force the FIA to do bernie's will (ie keep those $$$$$$$$ rolling in to certain pockets)

Did you notice those funny symbols on the backs of the ferrari team mechanics and so on at Canada? Those are the spots that Marlboro is paying to Ferrari to keep for their name (which magically appeared at certain third country races last year, and no doubt again this year as well), so with bernie and F1 in general, it is not about anything but revenue

None of them ( teams, MANUFACTURERS NOR SPONSORS) really care about what Max or bernie or RD or anyone else does, as long as it does not negatively affect revenue

Of course the fear remains that the chickens will come home to roost, and when they finally do, the manufacturers and s[ponsors will not be happy

[ArrowsFA1]

Max is not, but maxgate is the excuse that Bernie is seeking to justify his latest attempts at greed.
And the reaction of manufacturers, teams and sponsors? Is that a myth created by Bernie in the interests of his own greed?

[Valve Bounce]

When the human waste bi product collides with the climate control air recirculation system, I guess Bernie is trying to go on the front foot rather than let Max have the initiative.

[markabilly]

And the reaction of manufacturers, teams and sponsors? Is that a myth created by Bernie in the interests of his own greed?

No, but right now, there has not been such an overwhelming negative reaction with resultant PR damage translating into sponors losing money.

Nevertheless, for the obvious reasons, they will keep their distance out of fear of such.

Meanwhile, it provides bernie with the excuses he needs to get the FIA to play along and the excuses he needs to justify a breakaway from the FIA if he really wants it. And if there is such a breakaway to a series run solely by Bernie, you can only imagine that everything will become an even bigger circus. bernie is just using it for his own advantage

[Mark]

Max is gone at the end of 2009 whatever happens, so why not just wait it out?

[ArrowsFA1]

Talk of a breakaway revives criticisms made against the FIA by the GPMA two years ago. Then the GPMA were saying that "all majority votes which went against the FIA's interests have either been rejected to ignored" and that there were "various inconsistencies, irregularities, breaches of agreements shown by the FIA over the engine issue".
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/53206


Max is gone at the end of 2009 whatever happens, so why not just wait it out?
Doesn't the new Concorde Agreement need to be finalised before then?

[MAX_THRUST]

I think it is all pollitics, and Bernie is trying to apease the teams and sponsors by hinting that a breakaway would be required if Max doesn't step down. Hopefully Max will take the hint and bugger off......He should have won his little case with his friends at the FIA and then resigned and he could have kept his head up high.

Thought he had retired several years ago aonbly to come back, someone should have changed the locks.

[ShiftingGears]

Max is gone at the end of 2009 whatever happens, so why not just wait it out?

That is no guarantee. I wouldn't what Max says.

[ArrowsFA1]

There are a couple of points in this BBC story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7456405.stm)that I wasn't aware of:



Ecclestone pointed out that the failure of F1's power-brokers to renew the Concorde Agreement, the document which governed the sport from 1981 to 2007, means the team are free agents.
"What the FIA doesn't have, which is the most important thing for them, is an agreement with the teams they would have with the Concorde Agreement," he added. "There is no agreement between the teams and the FIA. There is a commercial agreement that has been signed by the teams and Formula One Management, so the teams can do what they like."
Ecclestone has been discussing a revised Concorde Agreement with the teams, but Mosley has, according to sources, made it clear he does not want to renew it.
That effectively means any checks on his power as FIA president, which were enshrined in the Concorde Agreement, no longer exist.
He has already disbanded the F1 Commission, the body which until last year agreed the F1 rules before they were rubber-stamped by the FIA World Council.

[wedge]

Possibly a storm in a tea cup.

Bernie was asked a question on the current state of play and gave a direct answer. The way it is at the moment we have no binding rules for 2010 onwards and therefore negotiations are in order of the day.

[ArrowsFA1]

Possibly a storm in a tea cup.
This whole situation is increasingly reminding me of the "good old" FISA/FOCA days:
Late December 1980, there looked to be no hope for the future of Grand Prix racing but in January 1981 there was a new constructive spirit to at least try to move on. Or was it simply because one side had been irreparably weakened?
http://www.forix.com/8w/fiasco-81.html

[wedge]

It was looking like it a couple of years ago but I get the impression that the major stakeholders would could deal with anyone apart from Max which is why the, IMHO, the Concorde Agreement has now stalled.

FOCA/FISA was slightly different, that was when we had privateer constructors but now the teams are virtually owned by manufacturers.

The FIA/some body needs to take reigns on F1. I wouldn't trust the manufacturers running the series.

[F1boat]

And the reaction of manufacturers, teams and sponsors? Is that a myth created by Bernie in the interests of his own greed?

BMW said that they are ready to move on. :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Indeed, and a couple of days later they said:
"We respect the decision of the FIA, but it is now a very critical situation for the FIA - between it and its membership clubs. And apparently this does not only affect the FIA, but also external partners like the car industry or motorsport."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68001

[aryan]

I'm following this with interest.

All I hope is that with one of the best season's under way, and the past couple of seasons showing that F1 is slowly moving in the right direction, things don't go back agaon.

[truefan72]

well, they are sure as hell trying to kill the golden goose. Money, and power by two self interested forces ( max and Bernie) are slowly circling inwards into an avoidable clash.

Max needs to go, Bernie needs to retire soon.
The fIA needs transparency, and rules need to be legitimiezed without all these grey areas.

I do find these past couple fo seasons entertaining, but the real business end of things is a farce. this is the top racing series in the world and they have one of the worst reputations from a business and ethics POV. All poiltics and grudges :down:

[BDunnell]

I do find these past couple fo seasons entertaining, but the real business end of things is a farce. this is the top racing series in the world and they have one of the worst reputations from a business and ethics POV. All poiltics and grudges :down:

Exactly right. It does nothing for the wider image of the sport, which is pretty bad, and not because of the 'cheating' cases. They have been proven to be a drop in the ocean when it comes to the root causes of why F1 doesn't look good to many.

[Valve Bounce]

well, they are sure as hell trying to kill the golden goose. Money, and power by two self interested forces ( max and Bernie) are slowly circling inwards into an avoidable clash.

Max needs to go, Bernie needs to retire soon.
The fIA needs transparency, and rules need to be legitimiezed without all these grey areas.

I do find these past couple fo seasons entertaining, but the real business end of things is a farce. this is the top racing series in the world and they have one of the worst reputations from a business and ethics POV. All poiltics and grudges :down:

It would be great if Max were to be replaced by Juan Todt asap, and Bernie suddenly lost his memory completely, and was replaced by Warren Buffy.

[F1boat]

I would be happy if Jean replaces Max.

[ioan]

What greediness? It's to do with the reaction of manufacturers, teams and sponsors.

:laugh:

Really?!
The biggest teams (and thus manufacturers) expressed their views already, and it was about continuing with F1.

[ioan]

It would be great if Max were to be replaced by Juan Todt asap, and Bernie suddenly lost his memory completely, and was replaced by Warren Buffy.

The perfect replacements!

[ioan]

Indeed, and a couple of days later they said:

"We respect the decision of the FIA, but it is now a very critical situation for the FIA - between it and its membership clubs. And apparently this does not only affect the FIA, but also external partners like the car industry or motorsport."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68001

Anyone believes that the car manufacturers are selling less cars because Mosley was caught with his pants down?!
Get real people, if there is a thing that influences the car sales at the moment it's the economical crisis we all feel at this moment, and I'm sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with Max and the whores.

[truefan72]

Anyone believes that the car manufacturers are selling less cars because Mosley was caught with his pants down?!
Get real people, if there is a thing that influences the car sales at the moment it's the economical crisis we all feel at this moment, and I'm sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with Max and the whores.

ioan it is as much to do with perception and image, perhaps more so, than with sales.

None of those car manufactures wants to be on the same continent as Mosley. and by proxy none of their sponsors or potential sponsors want the negativity surrounding this man.

No visits to hospitality tents, no interaction with execs, no press or media relations, etc, etc, etc.

How is this good for F1 and FIA.

These teams are in F1 primarily out of image and prestige. Along with some techincal R&D, as well as the real benefits of profit displacement with virtue of tax shelters, ( I hear that Toyota classifies it's F1 budget as R&D investment's and thus defers paying taxes on monies divested into the outfit)

It's an image and prestige driven arena, not a concrete tool for selling cars. And as such, having a disgraced FIA president continuing to preside over matters, while the board of cronies, looking at their own political machinations rather than the good of the sport, cowardly and secretly aid in bringing the whole organization in disrepute.

That, my friend, is the crux of the problem.
What's the point in shelling out millions of dollars into a complete monarchial system, where rules are as arbitrary and inconsistent as ever.Where the powers to be are more interested in politics than governance. Too much secracy, too much favoratism.

Might as well create an open and fair league to the benefit of all participants. Revenues sharing via tv contracts, and concise rules.

[ArrowsFA1]

:laugh:

Really?!
The biggest teams (and thus manufacturers) expressed their views already, and it was about continuing with F1.
Well we really would in a right old pickle if they'd said they were withdrawing from F1 wouldn't we :laugh: Of course they want to continue in F1, but they have also voiced their concerns about the impact this has had. They have not said the EGM resolved the many issues that have been raised.

How is this good for F1 and FIA.
A very good question. ioan, your answer?

[ArrowsFA1]

Anyone believes that the car manufacturers are selling less cars because Mosley was caught with his pants down?!
Get real people...
Who's talking about car sales?

The subject is the possibility of a breakaway F1 series. The mere fact that is being discussed is an indication of the impact of Maxgate.

[Valve Bounce]

Anyone believes that the car manufacturers are selling less cars because Mosley was caught with his pants down?!
Get real people, if there is a thing that influences the car sales at the moment it's the economical crisis we all feel at this moment, and I'm sorry to dissapoint you but it has nothing to do with Max and the whores.

OhoHH!! you are risking pino's wrath with this post. I'm not even going to second guess what will happen to you. Hope to see you in the chat room during the French GP!!

[ioan]

ioan it is as much to do with perception and image, perhaps more so, than with sales.

None of those car manufactures wants to be on the same continent as Mosley.

Are you kidding?!
All that manufacturers care about is $$$!
Who would not buy a BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Renault etc because they are running in F1 and Mosley was caught with his pants down?!

Tell you what, 99% of the people didn't even knew about the Mosley scandal. And from those who knew about it 99.99% will buy a car based on it's price/performance not on anything else.

All this talk about how the Mosley scandal influences anything else but his personal life is political manure, and those who fall for it are hollow heads.

People don't realize how small F1 really is because of it's exclusive nature.

Take a look at the last Le Mans this past week end, they've got 250.000 people who watched the race while the French GP doesn't achieve 100.000 over the whole week end.

[ioan]

A very good question. ioan, your answer?

Go read all the posts in the Mosley related threads, it's all in there, no need to repeat myself for those who didn't bother reading at the right time.

[ioan]

Who's talking about car sales?

The subject is the possibility of a breakaway F1 series. The mere fact that is being discussed is an indication of the impact of Maxgate.

What do you think that manufacturers are interested by, car sales or F1?!
The day you will find the answer will be the day you will realize that they care only about getting themselves a good finishing position in F1, so that they can put it in their next advert, in order to have a + over the Opel advert on the next board, that's all.
If tomorrow there is no F1 they will go to Le Mans racing, or DTM or whatever there is on top of the TV schedule, they will get at least as much advertising for way less money.

[ioan]

OhoHH!! you are risking pino's wrath with this post. I'm not even going to second guess what will happen to you. Hope to see you in the chat room during the French GP!!

That only depends on who qualifies for the 1/4 finals in the EM 2008, Italy or Romania! ;)

[Knock-on]

Are you kidding?!
All that manufacturers care about is $$$!
Who would not buy a BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Renault etc because they are running in F1 and Mosley was caught with his pants down?!

Tell you what, 99% of the people didn't even knew about the Mosley scandal. And from those who knew about it 99.99% will buy a car based on it's price/performance not on anything else.

All this talk about how the Mosley scandal influences anything else but his personal life is political manure, and those who fall for it are hollow heads.

So, all the squillions of $$$ companies spend on advertising / sponsorship is just a waste of money.

Glad we cleared that up :laugh:

OK, this is how it works in the UK market.

People do not decide to buy a Mercedes on what Max gets up to. However, most people have heard about that weirdo pervert that whips prozzies in Nazi Uniforms and know he is something to do with F1.

That lewis bloke drives in F1.

End of story....

.... or is it?

This is the power of advertising / marketing. Subliminally, there will also be a connection with Mercedes, Santander, Boss, Vodafone, Mobile, Jonny Walker etc whenever you see a picture of Lewis or the car racing around the track and your brain will unconciously link that to the weirdo.

You will not decide whether to buy a Mercedes on what Max has been up to just as you wont buy one because they win the Championship. However, the association helps project Mercedes in a positive or negative light.

Big Corporates spend a fortune on presenting a positive brand and if elements detract from that brand, they don't like it.

[ioan]

So, all the squillions of $$$ companies spend on advertising / sponsorship is just a waste of money.

Glad we cleared that up :laugh:

OK, this is how it works in the UK market.

People do not decide to buy a Mercedes on what Max gets up to. However, most people have heard about that weirdo pervert that whips prozzies in Nazi Uniforms and know he is something to do with F1.

That lewis bloke drives in F1.

End of story....

.... or is it?

This is the power of advertising / marketing. Subliminally, there will also be a connection with Mercedes, Santander, Boss, Vodafone, Mobile, Jonny Walker etc whenever you see a picture of Lewis or the car racing around the track and your brain will unconciously link that to the weirdo.

You will not decide whether to buy a Mercedes on what Max has been up to just as you wont buy one because they win the Championship. However, the association helps project Mercedes in a positive or negative light.

Big Corporates spend a fortune on presenting a positive brand and if elements detract from that brand, they don't like it.

:rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

All this talk about how the Mosley scandal influences anything else but his personal life is political manure, and those who fall for it are hollow heads.
Nice :rolleyes: but that conveniently ignores the concerns of the manufacturers, talk of a breakaway F1 series, and splits within the FIA.

If tomorrow there is no F1 they will go to Le Mans racing, or DTM or whatever there is on top of the TV schedule, they will get at least as much advertising for way less money.
So why don't the manufacturers go to Le Mans racing, or DTM or whatever now? Honda, Renault and Toyota have no realistic hope of winning this year despite the costs and despite losing, and yet they stay. Why? At least Renault have won titles recently, but the other two have 1 race victory between them. Hardly enough to make an impact on car sales is it?

Did Renault's sales improve markedly because Alonso was winning titles with them? Have they slumped markedly since?

[Knock-on]

:rolleyes:

I assume you agree :p :

[Azumanga Davo]

:rolleyes:

Ah, silence is golden, isn't it?

[ioan]

Ah, silence is golden, isn't it?

Yeah, way better than expressing what I actually think about his post. :D

[Knock-on]

Yeah, way better than expressing what I actually think about his post. :D

Go one, just admit it makes sense. You can do it....

(First for everything :) )

[F1boat]

Come on, guys, teams are against Max because he needs something extreme to feel alive again, but have no problem when they race in countries with appaling record on human rights? I won't mention names, because I don't want to insult anyone.
Hipocrisy.

[ioan]

Go one...

:?:

[trumperZ06]

Max has become a public embarrASSment...

to both Formula One and the FIA.


The major FIA clubs wanted the Mad Man... out,

only to see third world countries submit to bribes...

thereby enabling Max to hold on to his office.

Bernie's not to be trusted... (greedy little bugger)

the manufacturer's come and go...

resulting in this farce continuing to...

bring the FIA and Formula One in

Disrepute !!!

A very sorry state of affairs... when TWO organizations can not enforce
good judgement and common sense.

:s mokin: Trumper

[Knock-on]

:?:


Sorry, I ment "go on" :)

[gloomyDAY]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68546

Sorry Bernie. Cough up some cash you greedy old lizard!

Edit: Also, why does Ferrari have a separate deal? What makes them so special?

[ArrowsFA1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68546

Sorry Bernie. Cough up some cash you greedy old lizard!
From the report:
"...the move could be seen as a political play to win over team support for Mosley."
Surely not :laugh:

[ioan]

From the report:
Surely not :laugh:

What's so funny about that?! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

What about this part:


A spokesman for the FIA made it clear that the governing body is seeking an "equitable distribution of revenues" and to ensure that any agreement "maintains the FIA's independent authority" to regulate F1. It is understood that the FIA sent Ecclestone their proposal for a Concorde Agreement in May 2007 but have received nothing back since.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68546

The FIA is doing it's best for a new Concorde Agreement, Bernie however didn't bother answering for over 12 months! He surely couldn't care less about the sports future. :\

[ArrowsFA1]

What about this part...
All part of the "games" that are going on around this issue. It's about politics, commerce, and control and a lot has yet to happen before the full picture reveals itself.

[ioan]

All part of the "games" that are going on around this issue. It's about politics, commerce, and control and a lot has yet to happen before the full picture reveals itself.

:laugh:
Good try to dismiss it as a game on the issue.
However 12 months late on one of the fundamental issues of F1 because of Bernie refusing to discuss about the Concorde Agreement proposals, doesn't look like trying to harm the sport more like Max' little game in the dungeon?!

Try to be objective, on this one at least.

[ArrowsFA1]

Good try to dismiss it as a game on the issue.
Try to be objective, on this one at least.
By the "games" I mean the behind the scenes manoeuvring that is no doubt going on, both politically and commercially where the future of F1 is concerned.

As for being "12 months late", that doesn't quite fit in with the teams only formally starting the process of framing a new Concorde Agreement at the Canadian GP this year.

As for objectivity, I think "a lot has yet to happen before the full picture reveals itself" is far more objective than "the FIA is doing it's best...Bernie surely couldn't care less about the sports future."

[ioan]

As for being "12 months late", that doesn't quite fit in with the teams only formally starting the process of framing a new Concorde Agreement at the Canadian GP this year.

The FIA is part of it and sent their propositions more than 1 year ago, still got no answer from the commercial partner of the agreement.
Smells fishy, still some try to ignore it.

Bernie was banking on getting rid of Max that's why he started the negotiations with the team only after Max was hit with the sexual scandal, but that didn't work out and now Max is using his power to get the teams on his side. He might not get McLaren, but what about all the smaller teams that need the extra cash?!

[ArrowsFA1]

The FIA is part of it and sent their propositions more than 1 year ago, still got no answer from the commercial partner of the agreement.
Smells fishy, still some try to ignore it.
Not ignore it at all, I just have doubts that the FIA's comments reflect the complete picture. As Mario Theissen points out it's the first time he's heard about this, and his team is directly involved. Did the FIA make these suggestions 12mths ago and not tell all the teams? Is this a new proposal from the FIA to gain favour with the teams in the light of the problems Max is having? Has Bernie really "ignored" the FIA for 12mths?

Max is using his power to get the teams on his side...
Absolutely. It's typical Max. As I've said...political manoeuvring.

[ioan]

Not ignore it at all, I just have doubts that the FIA's comments reflect the complete picture. As Mario Theissen points out it's the first time he's heard about this, and his team is directly involved. Did the FIA make these suggestions 12mths ago and not tell all the teams? Is this a new proposal from the FIA to gain favour with the teams in the light of the problems Max is having? Has Bernie really "ignored" the FIA for 12mths?

Absolutely. It's typical Max. As I've said...political manoeuvring.

It;s the first time that BMW hears about the increased percentage of income for the teams not about the FIA having sent a proposal to Bernie 12 months ago.

[ioan]

Absolutely. It's typical Max. As I've said...political manoeuvring.

Bernie tried too, during Max's low key period, he even talked about the breakaway series. How many teams did go with his proposal?! Why they didn't? Because they know that if you go with Bernie than he'll get the money instead of you.

[gravity]

Yet, if Bernie went with it, it would have prob happened. He isn't rich by accident.

[ArrowsFA1]

It;s the first time that BMW hears about the increased percentage of income for the teams not about the FIA having sent a proposal to Bernie 12 months ago.
Yes. I know, but why have the FIA have waited until now to come up with this apparently new proposal?

Back in September Max was saying (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/62692): "Until the basic problem of costs has been resolved, time should not be wasted discussing how the FOM money is to be distributed. It is a secondary matter." (He had been at the Belgian GP "where discussions were dominated by the Concorde Agreement").

So what was once wasting time is now central to Max :crazy: and I'm not sure anyone would argue that the issue of costs has been resolved, or has it?

It's not so long ago (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67479)that Max was saying "We are in the middle of a renegotiations of the 100 year commercial agreement between the FIA and the Formula One Commercial Rights Holder (CRH)." That doesn't suggest a lack of communication during the last 12mths.

[ioan]

It's not so long ago (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67479)that Max was saying "We are in the middle of a renegotiations of the 100 year commercial agreement between the FIA and the Formula One Commercial Rights Holder (CRH)." That doesn't suggest a lack of communication during the last 12mths.

Having sent a proposal 12 months ago and waiting for an answer might be seen as being in the middle of the re-negotiations!

However I'm not sure that the 100 year commercial agreement between the FIA and the FOM (or CVC or whatever it is now) is the same one that stipulates how much money the teams get from Bernie.

[SGWilko]

Having sent a proposal 12 months ago and waiting for an answer might be seen as being in the middle of the re-negotiations!


How shortsighted - you should have gone to specsavers big boy.

If you are 'in negotiations' I assume you are happy to sit by and wait best part of a year for communication to resume then?

Nope, this is just political behind the scenes skullduggery! :dozey:

[ArrowsFA1]

So Max has told Bernie that he must give teams a larger share of F1 revenue if the governing body is to sign a new Concorde Agreement.

One reason for this apparent generosity could be that he's planning on taking it straight back:
The FIA World Council will consider a proposal to make teams pay for various "services and equipment at every F1 race" and intends to add the cost to the entry fee...All this will hike the entry fee from $466,000 to $1.1m, more than double the cost last year.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20505.html

[ioan]

If you are 'in negotiations' I assume you are happy to sit by and wait best part of a year for communication to resume then?

What would you propose if the other part don't respond, talk to yourself?! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

So Max has told Bernie that he must give teams a larger share of F1 revenue if the governing body is to sign a new Concorde Agreement.

One reason for this apparent generosity could be that he's planning on taking it straight back:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns20505.html

The difference being that the teams will get around $ 10 million more than before and only pay 600.000 more. And this in the case when the reported story is true, and coming from grandprix.com I have my doubts.

[ArrowsFA1]

...coming from grandprix.com I have my doubts.


The FIA is to discuss a dramatic rise of almost 150 percent in the entry fees for teams competing in Formula One next year, to help pay for services and equipment, in its World Council Meeting in Paris tomorrow.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68602

[ioan]

That's a reliable source!


The services that the FIA wants teams to pay for from the start of next year are:

1) A marshalling and positioning system (known as F1MS) that provides race control with real time information about a car's location on the track and enables light signals to be sent to cars. The total cost for this is 1,026,000 euros.

2) The increased use of light panels around the track to supplement flag signals - which not only provide better visibility for drivers but also give race control a more accurate record of what signals are shown when. The total cost for this is 1,232,000 euros.

3) The Surveillance Data Record (SDR), which is fitted to cars to monitor car parameters and also gather data in the event of a crash. This has been used for the past six years and, although the teams have previously paid the supplier directly, this will now be sourced directly through the FIA. The cost of this is 130,900 euros.

4) A new Pit Lane and Garage Network to provide a totally secure messaging service to replace the need for paper copies of documents from race control or the stewards. All FIA communication with teams would be done via this network and, with teams having to acknowledge receipt, it would prevent the kind of situation that happened in Japan last year when Ferrari claimed they failed to receive an email detailing the use of wet tyres. The network would also distribute the F1MS information, weather data and car data from the SDR and Standard ECU. The cost of this is 70,400 euros for each team.

5) Weather forecast. The provision of weather information to the teams costs the FIA 485,000 Euros per year.

6) Pit wall intercom system. The intercom system that has been used by teams for the past six years to speak directly to race control has cost 780,000 euros. The cost of this will be split between the teams, with the FIA also making an equal contribution.

Based on ten teams competing, the raft of safety and logistical measures will cost each outfit 428,700 euros per year.

That is why the FIA wants to raise the entry fee from this year's 300,000 euros up to 740,000 euros, which also takes into account an index link rise of 3.7 percent.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/68602

And it also looks to me that the costs are well deserved, and pretty transparent too.

[gravity]

1)How can the marshalling service (F1MS) cost 50 000 Euros per car to:
a) send race control the realtime position of the car, and
b) to receive light signals from race control

I can't see how that could cost more than a thousand Euros at the most.
Remember that the teams still have to pay for their own hardware fitted to the cars. Security in SA is a problem, so most cars are fitted with a tracking device, and that costs under R2000 (200 Euros). You can then download the software and see your car's realtime position as part of the package.

2) Tracks that want to be on the F1 calendar have to meet the FIA requirements. Kyalami was removed from the calendar as it did not meet the FIA standards. Sponsors had to put the money in to the track to develop it to the FIA standards as no money was given to the track organisers by the FIA themselves.

3) Looks like the teams are just going to redirect the same amount that they used to pay to the supplier, now towards the FIA. No change for teams budget there then.

4) Installing a basic PC network system in a pit lane can hardly cost 70,400 Euros per team! Thats 704,000 Euros for a pitlane MSN/email service!

5) Most weather forecasting information is free public knowledge. 485,000 Euros seems a bit excessive for what is mostly... free. And it's not like their forecasts are accurate, anyway.

6) 780,000 Euros for 10 two way radios (an already working system, so presumably the 780 000 Euros is for maintenance on the 10 two way radios).

These new figures are 430,000 Euros. What were the teams paying 300,000 Euros for before? They must be for other items not listed here to end up with a 740,000 Euro entry fee.

[ioan]

1)How can the marshalling service (F1MS) cost 50 000 Euros per car to:
a) send race control the realtime position of the car, and
b) to receive light signals from race control

I can't see how that could cost more than a thousand Euros at the most.


50.000/18 races makes 2750€ / car/race.
considering that it has to be mounted and unmounted at every race track, it isn't at all expensive.



2) Tracks that want to be on the F1 calendar have to meet the FIA requirements. Kyalami was removed from the calendar as it did not meet the FIA standards. Sponsors had to put the money in to the track to develop it to the FIA standards as no money was given to the track organisers by the FIA themselves.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?



4) Installing a basic PC network system in a pit lane can hardly cost 70,400 Euros per team! Thats 704,000 Euros for a pitlane MSN/email service!

As I said, they do have 18 different races a year, that means installing it and removing it 18 times, plus it should be maintained too, and you need to pay someone to do that.

704.000/18 = 88.000€ / race = 8800€/ team, not even the price of a crash helmet, and it will spare them communication problems and penalties.




5) Most weather forecasting information is free public knowledge. 485,000 Euros seems a bit excessive for what is mostly... free. And it's not like their forecasts are accurate, anyway.

I agree with the fact that their weather forecast isn't good enough to pay for it.



6) 780,000 Euros for 10 two way radios (an already working system, so presumably the 780 000 Euros is for maintenance on the 10 two way radios).

It's the cost for 6 years of usage and the FIA will pay an equal part. I find it equitable: 780.000/11= 71.000 per part/6 years= 12.000€ per team / year = 666.666€ per race! :D



These new figures are 430,000 Euros. What were the teams paying 300,000 Euros for before? They must be for other items not listed here to end up with a 740,000 Euro entry fee.

I suppose so.

[Knock-on]

I assume the FIA is reducing the amount it receives from F1 by a similar amount seeing as it no longer covers these expenses?

[ioan]

I assume the FIA is reducing the amount it receives from F1 by a similar amount seeing as it no longer covers these expenses?

What amount exactly does the FIA receive from F1?

[gravity]

50.000/18 races makes 2750€ / car/race.
What does this have to do with the topic at hand?


The FIA are charging the teams to have the lights fitted at the tracks.
So... It looks to me like the FIA are charging teams for a service that the event organisers need to have fitted before they have F1 status anyway.
I couldn't find it written anywhere that the track organisers would be paid by the FIA.

[SGWilko]

What would you propose if the other part don't respond, talk to yourself?! :rolleyes:

I'd pester the old goat until he gave me a response! :dozey: :rolleyes:

[SGWilko]

Bernie eyes breakaway.....

I'm not surprised. Those chocolate and shortbread bars are very tasty.

[Knock-on]

What amount exactly does the FIA receive from F1?

I thought it was about 20%

[SGWilko]

What amount exactly does the FIA receive from F1?

$100m last year, IIRC (less TV money etc, of course). :p :

[ioan]

I thought it was about 20%

Never heard about it. Any link to a source?!

[SGWilko]

I thought it was about 20%

Nah, that was Willi Weber wasn't it? ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

What amount exactly does the FIA receive from F1?
I assume that kind of information is held in the Concorde Agreement which is a highly secretive document. Or should I say was...A very quick google search brings up details of the 1997 Concorde Agreement (http://www.concordeagreement.com). Hardly bang up to date but still...

[ioan]

Thanks for the link Arrows.



The total income to FOM is said to be about $800 Million. 23% of this total is the television money.
This television money is then split 3 ways:
- 30% Formula One Administration (owns the broadcast rights)
- 23% International Sportsworld Communications (markets the broadcast rights)
- 47% The F1 teams, as various sorts of prize money. (GPWC are said to be willing to give up 80%)


There is no mention about the FIA getting any money.

[SGWilko]

Thanks for the link Arrows.



There is no mention about the FIA getting any money.

Aw, they do it for nowt - how nice of them. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Aw, they do it for nowt - how nice of them. :rolleyes:

Well, it's a non profit organization.

[clavius85]

I assume that kind of information is held in the Concorde Agreement which is a highly secretive document. Or should I say was...A very quick google search brings up details of the 1997 Concorde Agreement (http://www.concordeagreement.com). Hardly bang up to date but still...

Is it crazy to suggest that this sport be a lot more transparent in terms of its financial setup? ;)

[Knock-on]

Thanks for the link Arrows.



There is no mention about the FIA getting any money.

Well, they got $100m one off payment last year from one team :D

[Knock-on]

Is it crazy to suggest that this sport be a lot more transparent in terms of its financial setup? ;)

Very good point. You try finding out anything about the FIA finances. It's impossible.

There was a news article some time ago where doubt was cast on how Max and Bernie had carved up their little Empire and some very irregular dealing Max had with finance.

It was the same article that detailed how Max and Bernie screwed the Championship by not penalising Benetton which gave Schumacher the Championship.

It just keeps on getting murkier :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Well, they got $100m one off payment last year from one team :D

I take it that you would have been happier with McLiars and Ron "integrity" Dennis out of business for 2 seasons! :D

[BDunnell]

I take it that you would have been happier with McLiars and Ron "integrity" Dennis out of business for 2 seasons! :D

ioan, do you think you get a special prize if you refer to 'McLiars' and 'Ron 'Integrity' Dennis' a certain number of times?

The predictability of the content of certain posts makes me think that the people behind the usernames have been replaced by some form of computer-based message generation system.

[ioan]

ioan, do you think you get a special prize if you refer to 'McLiars' and 'Ron 'Integrity' Dennis' a certain number of times?

The predictability of the content of certain posts makes me think that the people behind the usernames have been replaced by some form of computer-based message generation system.

Nicknames are usual in sports, look at Boxing, and each one gets the one they deserve.

Does it hurt you in any way, that I dislike Ron and his team of cheaters?! If it does, than I'm sorry to hurt you, but I fail to see why this should be the case.

[F1boat]

I agree with ioan.

[ShiftingGears]

Nicknames are usual in sports, look at Boxing, and each one gets the one they deserve.

Does it hurt you in any way, that I dislike Ron and his team of cheaters?! If it does, than I'm sorry to hurt you, but I fail to see why this should be the case.

Funny, I remember you being irritated at people calling Schumacher "Cheatmacher" and other such nicknames. That seems like quite a double standard from you.

[F1boat]

Thesquirrel, I was irritated too, but the names calling remained as strong as ever. I fail to see why it must be different to the McLiar team.

[ShiftingGears]

Thesquirrel, I was irritated too, but the names calling remained as strong as ever. I fail to see why it must be different to the McLiar team.

Because two wrongs don't make a right.

[markabilly]

Is it crazy to suggest that this sport be a lot more transparent in terms of its financial setup? ;)


Well, they got $100m one off payment last year from one team :D
I think there was some article that said max moved to monaco to avoid paying taxes on a 300 million "gift" that berniE gave him somewhere in 2000--2003 for being such a nice "goodfellow" to helping bernie gets his billions....??????

[Knock-on]

I think there was some article that said max moved to monaco to avoid paying taxes on a 300 million "gift" that berniE gave him somewhere in 2000--2003 for being such a nice "goodfellow" to helping bernie gets his billions....??????

Damm your eyes sir.

How dare you, how very, very dare you (adopts a Frankie Howard pout)

Max is the all singing, all dancing saviour of F1 and don't you forget it. The only reason Max (bless his leather lined handcuffs) moved to a tax haven was to avoid prosocution should there ever be an inquiry into a drivers death (from a hunk of exhaust pipe for example).

The (alleged) fact Bernie gave him $$$squillions$$$ as a gesture of friendship (and not in any way a kick back for practically giving away the rights of F1 for a song) does not imply there was any financial incentive for selling out F1 to Bernie but was an attempt by Max to dodge justice should he be found guilty of manslaughter because of some of the decisions he has made as President of the FIA.

Personally, I can understand moving for financial reasons. Hell, if I had just been given a bribe, i would have done the same. However, to predict a possible manslaughter case because of your actions and move to avoid any reprocussion of your actions takes real genius.

:D

Allegedly ;)