Do Citroen need a new 2nd driver?

[Daniel]

Perhaps it's just me but I really think Citroen need a new 2nd driver. Sordo has shown flashes of brilliance but just never seems to deliver the goods on a regular basis.

If I were in charge at Citroen I'd have Atkinson in the 2nd C4 and have the manufacturers title in the bag.

I wonder how long Dani has left at Citroen because he's not really shown the makings of a champion in the 2 and a bit years he's had a factory drive......

[koko0703]

Hummm.... It'll be difficult decision to let Sordo go right now, but if Aava starts producing consistent results in Citroen, Dani's seat won't be safe.

[cut the b.s.]

Citroen backed the wrong guy in Dani if they wanted another champion, he does what he does pretty well, I think his gravel pace has improved this year but he will only ever be a 2nd driver and lacks the ultimate speed that they could have got elsewhere

[N.O.T]

Hmmmm.....i think from the current unemployed ones only meeke would come close and maybe he would be better than dani on gravel.

[iJones]

Yes they need. Preferably someone from Finland. :D
But seriously, Sordo has shown improvement on gravel and has always been fast on tarmac but when going gets tough he just can't deliver. Very much like Hirvonen unfortunately.

[Tomi]

I think its a little too late, they should have choosed Garde when he was free, if Atkinson would be avilable he would be a good choise, or Atkinson who is still quite young driver maybe should consider if its clever to spend the best driving years at Subaru, or maybe he should try to find a car that is suitable for rallying instead.
At moment Sordo is propably the best choise, by taking a novise who dont have notes it takes time to get where Sordo is anyway.

[iJones]

I think its a little too late, they should have choosed Garde when he was free,
My thoughts exactly. :up:

[dimviii]

opinions about Galli in Citroen? :rolleyes:

[L5->R5/CR]

Daniel,

You pose the question as though winning the manufacturers championship is their primary goal.

Citroen's primary goal is to sell more cars, having a Spanish driver that is competitive (points scoring wise) is more important to realizing that goal than winning the manufacturers championship.

[A.F.F.]

I don't think Citroen did nothing wrong. They gambled on Sordo and they lost. You folks do remember those Wonderboy threads we had here on the forum, right? At that time he supposed to be the best out of Young Guns, superfast on tarmac and hopefully good and fast development on gravel.

Tomi said it completely right, too little too late. Unfortunately it seems Sordo will never become a champion as he lack a major part of rallying skills, a superfast and consistent gravel driving skills. I'm not saying he won't never reach them, I'm just saying a few of promising new comers will reach them right in front of his nose :mark:

He just didn't turned out Loeb like Citroen probably hoped for, that they had two diamonds in their hands.

[Daniel]

Daniel,

You pose the question as though winning the manufacturers championship is their primary goal.

Citroen's primary goal is to sell more cars, having a Spanish driver that is competitive (points scoring wise) is more important to realizing that goal than winning the manufacturers championship.

You have a point. But we're following a sport. Not a marketing competition :)

[Doon]

[quote="A.F.F."]


He's 24 (ish), give the lad a chance! to be fair he has Seb as a team mate, not a great thing because he'll never be allowed to beat the golden child.....and oh yeh the golden child is probably the greatest driver ever....full stop!!!

I do think Meeke would have ben a better 2nd driver though. hope dani is allowed to shine though. lets see what he has on the tarmac rounds this year!!

[grugsticles]

He's 24 (ish), give the lad a chance! to be fair he has Seb as a team mate, not a great thing because he'll never be allowed to beat the golden child.....and oh yeh the golden child is probably the greatest driver ever....full stop!!!

I do think Meeke would have ben a better 2nd driver though. hope dani is allowed to shine though. lets see what he has on the tarmac rounds this year!!

I tend to agree with Doon.
Take Tommi @ Mitsubishi, Marcus @ Pugeot and now Seb @ Citreon, they are/were all world champions and for a team to keep thier star driver they are forced to setup/design/build the car how the lead driver wants it. Its just stiff ****e to the rest of the drivers if they cant adapt.

I like tothink of Dani as a Spanish version Gillies Panizzi - lightning on Tarmac but not so great on loose stuff. Panizzi never really had a car designed around his likes/needs and Dani is the same.

But give him time and im sure that with a but more time and some luck his way he will be competitve for the drivers title.

[ShiftingGears]

Atkinson would be a great choice, he has always been fast, and with Prevot's navigating he's a lot more consistent.


Citroen's primary goal is to sell more cars, having a Spanish driver that is competitive (points scoring wise) is more important to realizing that goal than winning the manufacturers championship.

Alonso to Citroen in '09. You heard it here first.

[Saabaru]

Sordo could do allot better if Citroen could keep his car together. How many times did he retire last year because his car kept giving out on hem? Kind of makes you wonder why he had so many problems and lobe seemed to go without any.

[bowler]

You have a point. But we're following a sport. Not a marketing competition :)

At the top level, (and at most other levels) it is purely a business, being marketed through sport.

The spanish market is very important to Citroen. Sainz helped grow the market, and the inclusion of Sordo reinforces that.

The manufacturers only support rally (or any other motorsport) to sell cars. They have no interest otherwise.

Once that is understood lots of other things become clearer

[Tomi]

I tend to agree with Doon.
Take Tommi @ Mitsubishi, Marcus @ Pugeot and now Seb @ Citreon, they are/were all world champions and for a team to keep thier star driver they are forced to setup/design/build the car how the lead driver wants it. Its just stiff ****e to the rest of the drivers if they cant adapt.

from where did you get this bull****?

[L5->R5/CR]

You have a point. But we're following a sport. Not a marketing competition :)

Motorsport is nothing but a marketing competition.

No company will spend a single penny if there isn't a marketing return.

To dismiss marketing considerations is to totally gloss over the whole point of intent...

[Daniel]

Motorsport is nothing but a marketing competition.

No company will spend a single penny if there isn't a marketing return.

To dismiss marketing considerations is to totally gloss over the whole point of intent...


At the top level, (and at most other levels) it is purely a business, being marketed through sport.

The spanish market is very important to Citroen. Sainz helped grow the market, and the inclusion of Sordo reinforces that.

The manufacturers only support rally (or any other motorsport) to sell cars. They have no interest otherwise.

Once that is understood lots of other things become clearer

Did either of you actually read my post?

How many posts on this forum are written following things from a marketing POV?

Wow! Gigi to Ford this year! Not sure about results but I can see that selling lots of Focii to 24-30 year olds :rolleyes:

We're discussing it as a sport and not as marketing. Or did I not say that clearly enough before?

It's funny..... koko0703, cut the b.s, N.O.T, iJones, Tomi, A.F.F, Doon, grugsticles, theugsquirrel and Saabaru all understood it! Why not yourselves? :dozey:

P.S I seem to remember Citroen were bothered about the manufacturers title enough not to let Sebastien push for victory on Rally GB in 2003.....

[Helstar]

Sordo could do allot better if Citroen could keep his car together. How many times did he retire last year because his car kept giving out on hem? Kind of makes you wonder why he had so many problems and lobe seemed to go without any.
Ye, I still remember Monte 2008, he shut the door of the C4 in rage when the engine blow up ... anyway he's amazing on tarmac (could even beat Loeb if allowed) and remember that we will have THREE tarmac rallies that will 99% lead to full 18 points for Citroen.
I don't think he is that bad on gravel either, ok mostly no way near Loeb / finnish Ford guys, but sometimes yes - he has been unlucky this year, in Greece he could have won without the punctures and in Jordan he was outpaced by the 'smart' Ford move to let him sweep the road in the last day.

opinions about Galli in Citroen? :rolleyes:
There's no way. Honestly 1) he's "old", Citroen doesn't seek for somebody old like that for his main team, I suppose 2) I don't believe it's good for him to do the 2nd driver when the lead one is Loeb (actually nobody could do that but... you get my point) 3) I don't think Ford will let Gigi go to other places anyway... and Gigi also seem a very loyal person (remember that he didn't leave Mitsubishi when Wilson already asked at the end of 2005).

Ps. Speed counts not the country where they want to sell more cars, otherwise Ford wouldn't have taken TWO finnish right ? at least two different nationality drivers then, to have a "double" exposure :p

[bowler]

Did either of you actually read my post?



Yes I did.

[Daniel]

Yes I did.
Then why did you ignore my post?

[cut the b.s.]

Sordo could do allot better if Citroen could keep his car together. How many times did he retire last year because his car kept giving out on hem? Kind of makes you wonder why he had so many problems and lobe seemed to go without any.


Maybe Dani is harder on the car? I dont think Citroen are building him duff cars on purpose. Seb often has a margin over everyone on rallys and is able to back of, as seen in Greece where Dani was pushing(a bit too hard for his tyres) all the way

[bowler]

Then why did you ignore my post?

I didn't ignore your post. I simply didn't agree with it, and commented accordingly.

I am not obliged to agree with you daniel.

[cali]

I think its a little too late, they should have choosed Garde when he was free, if Atkinson would be avilable he would be a good choise, or Atkinson who is still quite young driver maybe should consider if its clever to spend the best driving years at Subaru, or maybe he should try to find a car that is suitable for rallying instead.
At moment Sordo is propably the best choise, by taking a novise who dont have notes it takes time to get where Sordo is anyway.

No Garde, please if You want to have someone "oldie" to drive it is ofcourse Galli not Garde.

[Tomi]

No Garde, please if You want to have someone "oldie" to drive it is ofcourse Galli not Garde.

Im sure he was not even a option at that time.

[L5->R5/CR]

Did either of you actually read my post?

How many posts on this forum are written following things from a marketing POV?

Wow! Gigi to Ford this year! Not sure about results but I can see that selling lots of Focii to 24-30 year olds :rolleyes:

We're discussing it as a sport and not as marketing. Or did I not say that clearly enough before?

It's funny..... koko0703, cut the b.s, N.O.T, iJones, Tomi, A.F.F, Doon, grugsticles, theugsquirrel and Saabaru all understood it! Why not yourselves? :dozey:

P.S I seem to remember Citroen were bothered about the manufacturers title enough not to let Sebastien push for victory on Rally GB in 2003.....

What is the point in having half of a discussion?

[Daniel]

What is the point in having half of a discussion?
This is like that thread where Janvanvurpa and Solitt chucked their toys out of the pram and claimed that I had said that all club level rally people were idiots.

Can someone rename this thread?

"If Citroen want to win the manufacturers title do they need a new 2nd driver?"

Happy now?

[Tomi]

This is like that thread where Janvanvurpa and Solitt chucked their toys out of the pram and claimed that I had said that all club level rally people were idiots.

Can someone rename this thread?

"If Citroen want to win the manufacturers title do they need a new 2nd driver?"

Happy now?

Citroen has been keeping a little low profile about the manu.title lately, but for sure they value it higher than the drivers title.

[jonkka]

Citroen has been keeping a little low profile about the manu.title lately, but for sure they value it higher than the drivers title.

For some obscure reason, manufacturers are so very keen on manufacturers' crown even though the drivers' title is much more prestigious. This year Citroen has a good shot at the manu title again, though outcome will pretty much depend on both team's 2nd driver's performance.

[Saabaru]

Maybe Dani is harder on the car? I dont think Citroen are building him duff cars on purpose. Seb often has a margin over everyone on rallys and is able to back of, as seen in Greece where Dani was pushing(a bit too hard for his tyres) all the way

I’m not questioning the Flying Frenchman’s ability at all. Like hem or not, he is clearly the best at what he dose. But the busted cylinders and transmission problems Sordo has had over the past year are not a result of driver’s abuse in my opinion. I don’t think Citroen is sabotaging his car ether. His teammate being the golden boy of rally though might have something to do with it. I wouldn’t say sabotage, but diverting attention and resources to their number one driver, maybe.

[J4MIE]

Citroen has been keeping a little low profile about the manu.title lately, but for sure they value it higher than the drivers title.

...maybe because they haven't been winning it? :p :

[COD]

Sordo has maybe not developed (yet) to an event winner I expected him to become. His development has slowed down dramatically. Still, he is as good of a no.2 driver as any in my opinion. On gravel he is not among top, but overall (tarmac included) he does a good job. Not too many own mistakes and solid results.

[tmx]

Despite Dani being my least favorite wrc driver, I disagree with the original question, have you even watch his times? Dani is doing a lot better lately, and he had bad luck with engine late last year. His speed on gravel have improve significantly, and I mean he totally caught me by surprises the beginning of this season, ..well atleast it couldn't just be the car. Several times he is challenging for the lead. Chris may have good result in the first 4 events, but Dani should be able to challenge Chris in driver points by the year end.

[jens]

Sordo isn't as bad as he seems, I think his main problem is that he is driving in the same team with someone, who is widely acknowledged as the best driver of WRC, who makes him look average. I really don't think C4 is as good as Focus on the gravel and therefore it would be hard to expect Dani being a constant rival to Ford factory guys - as it seems most of you expect him to be.

I'd like to see Sordo fighting with another team-mate one day to find out, how good he really is.

[AndyRAC]

Citroen need a third driver who is a Gravel expert - keep Dani and let him get better on Gravel. Okay he can't score Manufacturers points, but it would possibly take drivers points from the Ford drivers.

[Finni]

Sordo isn't as bad as he seems, I think his main problem is that he is driving in the same team with someone, who is widely acknowledged as the best driver of WRC, who makes him look average. I really don't think C4 is as good as Focus on the gravel and therefore it would be hard to expect Dani being a constant rival to Ford factory guys - as it seems most of you expect him to be..

Considering Ava's stage times from last two rallies I wouldn't belittle C4.

[Donney]

He is one point behind Atkinson, who is doing his best season, and four points away from Latvala, he is showing good consistent times on gravel and he is fast as anyone on asphalt, I think he is doing fine.

[Daniel]

He is one point behind Atkinson, who is doing his best season, and four points away from Latvala, he is showing good consistent times on gravel and he is fast as anyone on asphalt, I think he is doing fine.

Fair point I guess :up:

I just kinda expected a bit more for him this year on gravel. I know his car hasn't been as reliable as it could have been of course.

[Brother John]

Maybe they need a new first driver! or if you want to see sport they would have to leave WRC (World Rally Circus) and go somewhere else. :p :


Perhaps it's just me but I really think Citroen need a new 2nd driver. Sordo has shown flashes of brilliance but just never seems to deliver the goods on a regular basis.

If I were in charge at Citroen I'd have Atkinson in the 2nd C4 and have the manufacturers title in the bag.

I wonder how long Dani has left at Citroen because he's not really shown the makings of a champion in the 2 and a bit years he's had a factory drive......

[Daniel]

Maybe they need a new first driver! or if you want to see sport they would have to leave WRC (World Rally Circus) and go somewhere else. :p :

Yes. Great logic :D Most successful rally driver in history and they need to replace him :p Agree with the circus bit though :up:

[AndyRAC]

Yes. Great logic :D Most successful rally driver in history and they need to replace him :p Agree with the circus bit though :up:

Just imagine if they did leave. The WRC would be even more worseless than it is now - if that is possible. Loeb could take up Sportscars/DTM/anything in fact. We'd be left with the FordWRC, (with support from Subaru, Suzuki).

[Daniel]

Just imagine if they did leave. The WRC would be even more worseless than it is now - if that is possible. Loeb could take up Sportscars/DTM/anything in fact. We'd be left with the FordWRC, (with support from Subaru, Suzuki).

Yup :D

I can imagine Malcolm would be going on about how great Mikko and Latvala are driving and so on. Malcolm strikes me as the sort of guy who would keep on playing when the competition has gone just because it means he can win lots.

[Mihai]

You pose the question as though winning the manufacturers championship is their primary goal.

Citroen's primary goal is to sell more cars, having a Spanish driver that is competitive (points scoring wise) is more important to realizing that goal than winning the manufacturers championship.

Totally agreed. :up:
Let's not forget that WRC is big and expensive business for the manufacturers. Subaru kept Atko during his early years in the WRC because his image was selling lots of Imprezas in native Australia. The same for Sordo.

If Leob opens up a significant gap in the championship before Rally Catalunya, I bet Citroen will hand Sordo the home win, for publicity purposes.