Cleveland Still Alive [Archive]

MDS

13th June 2008, 18:14

Old news:

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=488576&postcount=4

Problem is the City of Cleveland may close Burke Lakefront Airport. Then what?

Well, it may happen, it may not happen. It won't happen if a contract is signed to race in 2009. I get that you have an agenda against anything that at one point was Champ Car related, but the event could draw good crowds and TV ratings again and many fans, myself included, think Cleveland shoud be given a shot.

What I've learned from watching governments and public interactions with airports is there is always a hew and cry to shut down general avation airports for "Development," and it normally doesn't happen quickly, if at all. If the race is a success I think both the airport and the race will be around for a while because Cleveland is kinda clingy for attention.

If it comes back I'll make the trip from Atlanta to Cleveland to see it, visit with family and go to Cedar Point.

dataman1

13th June 2008, 19:05

From the Rumor page at AutoRacing1 dated 6/13/08:

Bobby Rahal, a native of Medina, came to the aid of Cleveland when he attended a meeting between Cleveland officials and the Indy Racing League. Rahal, who won 3 Indy League Championships, told IRL officials that he was a big fan of the track and that it would be a shame for the event to be discontinued.

!!WALDO!!

13th June 2008, 19:24

Well, it may happen, it may not happen. It won't happen if a contract is signed to race in 2009. I get that you have an agenda against anything that at one point was Champ Car related, but the event could draw good crowds and TV ratings again and many fans, myself included, think Cleveland shoud be given a shot.

Been to more CART races than you, so no agenda. The IRL said they will not do both Cleveland and Mid-Ohio. I take them at their word.

What I've learned from watching governments and public interactions with airports is there is always a hew and cry to shut down general avation airports for "Development," and it normally doesn't happen quickly, if at all. If the race is a success I think both the airport and the race will be around for a while because Cleveland is kinda clingy for attention.

Been in government, look at Meigs, open one day closed the next. Took the City of Chicago to court and lost. Property just to valuable.

If it comes back I'll make the trip from Atlanta to Cleveland to see it, visit with family and go to Cedar Point.

Hold you breath please.

MDS

13th June 2008, 20:00

If the IRL will not do Mid-Ohio and Cleveland, and plan on sticking to that, what makes you think Mid-Ohio would be the one to get the nod?

If League officials are talking with Cleveland, and by the way the only person I've heard claiming inside information saying its dead is you, it might mean that Mid Ohio is the course in trouble, and not Cleveland.

Mid-Ohio will never be anything more than a company picnic for Honda, but Cleveland, historically got good ratings and good crowds back in the CART days. All Cleveland needs to be viable is 28 cars and a title sponsor... the Honda Grand Prix of Cleveland sounds like a good idea to me.

This is just pure speculation, but Mid-Ohio is sitting on the weekend Michigan wants. Drop Mid-Ohio and move or drop Nasville, put Cleveland back on its traditional July 4 weekend and Michigan returns to the schedule. It certainally seems plausable to me

Anyway, back to facts. Burke is one of the busyist airports in Ohio. It's on pace to see 90,000 take offs and landings this year. The sizable fleet of single engine plans and a number of corporate jets would have to go somewhere, and that would over-burden the other airport in town. The Mayor has said Burke is not being redeveloped and will remain an airport. The only people I have heard crying for Burke to be shut down is the anti-airport "Rich toys for Big Boys" welath envy crowd and opportuntistic land developers. So your "it may close" is misleading and unfounded in fact and the Cleveland political climate, but in the short time don't let facts get in the way of your agenda.

BTW: In order for you to have attended more CART races than me you would have had to attend every race from 1999 to 2002 and then some. I worked for a team, I was at the track every weekend and that doesn't even count the four or five races a year I went every year from age 12 to 21 as a fan.

indyracefan

13th June 2008, 20:19

cartpix

13th June 2008, 22:27

...with Belle Isle and Mid-Ohio already on the schedule along with Chicagoland and Kentucky in addition to the probablility of Toronto getting a date Cleveland is probably a long shot at best. The series is concerned with Midwest over-saturation and don't seem eager to have more than 20-22 races in a season, all this works against Cleveland.

The race fan in me says, if I lived in the mid west I'd be happy to be "oversaturated" with races. Living on the west coast, I would love to be oversaturated. We used to be & I got spoiled.

Jeff

indyracefan

13th June 2008, 22:36

The race fan in me says, if I lived in the mid west I'd be happy to be "oversaturated" with races. Living on the west coast, I would love to be oversaturated. We used to be & I got spoiled.

Jeff

...they could add Cleveland, Gateway, Road America in addition to the dates already on the schedule and I wouldn't mind.

BobGarage

13th June 2008, 23:09

The IRL said they will not do both Cleveland and Mid-Ohio. I take them at their word.

The IRL once said (in the begining) that they would be an all oval series. An all american series that wasn't interested in overseas races, drivers or manufacturers.

All the above is certainly not the case today.

That is not a dig at the IRL, just saying the powers that be at the IRL can change their mind, they have in the past and because they once said one thing, doesn't mean they will stick to it in the future.

!!WALDO!!

13th June 2008, 23:28

If the IRL will not do Mid-Ohio and Cleveland, and plan on sticking to that, what makes you think Mid-Ohio would be the one to get the nod?

2007 was year one of a three year deal. STANDARD!

If League officials are talking with Cleveland, and by the way the only person I've heard claiming inside information saying its dead is you, it might mean that Mid Ohio is the course in trouble, and not Cleveland.

What League officials? Bobby Rahal? He should be more worried about sponsorship.

Mid-Ohio will never be anything more than a company picnic for Honda, but Cleveland, historically got good ratings and good crowds back in the CART days. All Cleveland needs to be viable is 28 cars and a title sponsor... the Honda Grand Prix of Cleveland sounds like a good idea to me.

One race and you make this statement.

This is just pure speculation, but Mid-Ohio is sitting on the weekend Michigan wants. Drop Mid-Ohio and move or drop Nasville, put Cleveland back on its traditional July 4 weekend and Michigan returns to the schedule. It certainally seems plausable to me

Is spelling plausable for you? Get back to me then.

Anyway, back to facts. Burke is one of the busyist airports in Ohio. It's on pace to see 90,000 take offs and landings this year. The sizable fleet of single engine plans and a number of corporate jets would have to go somewhere, and that would over-burden the other airport in town. The Mayor has said Burke is not being redeveloped and will remain an airport. The only people I have heard crying for Burke to be shut down is the anti-airport "Rich toys for Big Boys" welath envy crowd and opportuntistic land developers. So your "it may close" is misleading and unfounded in fact and the Cleveland political climate, but in the short time don't let facts get in the way of your agenda.

Real Estate, Meigs had more than that and went bye-bye. Divide 90,000 by 365 and you get 247 T/O and landing and 18 hour of activity you get 13 movements per hour or about 1 every 5 minutes.

Nothing at all.

!!WALDO!!

13th June 2008, 23:29

The IRL once said (in the begining) that they would be an all oval series. An all american series that wasn't interested in overseas races, drivers or manufacturers.

All the above is certainly not the case today.

That is not a dig at the IRL, just saying the powers that be at the IRL can change their mind, they have in the past and because they once said one thing, doesn't mean they will stick to it in the future.

They said that 12 years ago, they said this a month or two ago. Many of those powers are gone.

!!WALDO!!

13th June 2008, 23:30

!!WALDO!!

13th June 2008, 23:32

BTW: In order for you to have attended more CART races than me you would have had to attend every race from 1999 to 2002 and then some. I worked for a team, I was at the track every weekend and that doesn't even count the four or five races a year I went every year from age 12 to 21 as a fan.

Worked for CART from 1980-1983 and other things that total up to a number well past seventy-five.

Thanks for playing.

BobGarage

13th June 2008, 23:45

They said that 12 years ago, they said this a month or two ago. Many of those powers are gone.

Tony George said all of those things, last time I checked he was still involved in the IRL in some small capacity ;)

To give a more recent example of mnd changing. Just a week or two before mergification Tony George said (not an exact quote) "we offered the teams x, y, and z to switch series at the end of last year. No one took us up on that offer and its too late in the day now to offer that now"

Just a week or two later the offer was open again and the merger was done.

I'm just pointing out the management can change their minds in a matter of minutes and until the schedule comes out I won't believe anything.

!!WALDO!!

13th June 2008, 23:52

Tony George said all of those things, last time I checked he was still involved in the IRL in some small capacity ;)

Never said that. CART Myth started by people like me.

To give a more recent example of mnd changing. Just a week or two before mergification Tony George said (not an exact quote) "we offered the teams x, y, and z to switch series at the end of last year. No one took us up on that offer and its too late in the day now to offer that now"

That day's 25/8 to get certain people to dump or get off the pot. It is called politics.

Just a week or two later the offer was open again and the merger was done.

Again they got off the pot.

I'm just pointing out the management can change their minds in a matter of minutes and until the schedule comes out I won't believe anything.

Are you aware they basically the same market only weeks apart. Would Silverstone and Brands Hatch have an F-1 GP 4 weeks apart?

Believe what you want but with Mid-Ohio, Detroit, Watkins Glen and Toronto all in the same area it will not work.
If you think it will, then step up call the IRL and offer to PROMOTE CLEVELAND as Lanigan is gone.

MDS

14th June 2008, 00:48

2007 was year one of a three year deal. STANDARD!

Worse case scenario they keep Mid-Ohio and Cleveland on the schedule next year and then in 2010 drop Mid-Ohio.

What League officials? Bobby Rahal? He should be more worried about sponsorship.

Rahal was just a last minute tag-along because he wanted to show his support for the race. I think the biggest gun there was John Lewis, the VP of development.

It also included Mike Lanigan, who you just said was gone. Why here he is quoted in the Cleveland Plain Dealer. How could a guy who is quote "Gone" be in a meeting about a race that won't happen.

http://www.cleveland.com/sports/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1213259453300500.xml&coll=2

So that's another asertation of fact that was just completely wrong and baised on absolutely nothing on your part.

Well, some guy on the internet who claimes inside knowledge, but is often wrong on a number of facts, said he lost and shirt and was happy to be rid of those too races. Or Lanigan didn't lose nearly as money as some partisan outsider wishes he did. .... hmmm, so many options

One race and you make this statement.

It was always a B-level CART event, nice, but really nothing exciting.

Real Estate, Meigs had more than that and went bye-bye. Divide 90,000 by 365 and you get 247 T/O and landing and 18 hour of activity you get 13 movements per hour or about 1 every 5 minutes.

Nothing at all.

You're opinion of how busy Burke may or may not be is pointless, because you're clearly not aware of the situation on, and underneath, the ground in Cleveland. First of all the Mayor has decided to invest more money into Burke and the FAA master plan presented in October calls for improvements at Burke, and Continental doesn't want it to close.

It's not going anywhere any time soon. Read this link.
http://blog.cleveland.com/architecture/2007/09/_mayor_frank_jacksons_decision.html

Burke is built on top of landfill refuse and would require millions of dollars to make it suitable for development. So its not anywhere near the prime realestate you make it out to be. But by all means, don't let facts get in the way of your agenda.

Worked for CART from 1980-1983 and other things that total up to a number well past seventy-five.

Thanks for playing.

I did the math, and my number is between 114 and 125, and that doesn't count Champ Car or IRL events. I was part of the travel team and attened all 20 races between 1999 and 2002, so that's 80 races right there. Of course now I'm sure you'll trump up your number up to 150 or so.

millencolin

14th June 2008, 01:48

Are you aware they basically the same market only weeks apart. Would Silverstone and Brands Hatch have an F-1 GP 4 weeks apart?

If bernie would let them, i think they would. Hamilton fever has taken over. I'd pick a diffrent country for your analogy

The Indycar first races of the year were both in Florida, that wasn't a concern to them.

Lets hope that Cleveland gets the go-ahead because it was one of the classic races. The start into that narrow turn one was always exciting.

!!WALDO!!

14th June 2008, 02:05

If bernie would let them, i think they would. Hamilton fever has taken over. I'd pick a diffrent country for your analogy

Tell me how solvent are either track? So both can come up with the $35,000,000 sanction of F-1 and together can generate over $70,000,000?

Amazing, the U.S. GP will not take place unless BE gets off that figure and a sponsor writes off half. The U.S. GP lost money every time yet you believe because of Lewis they could handle two.

Send a wee bit of that stuff your drinking.

The Indycar first races of the year were both in Florida, that wasn't a concern to them.

Two different markets. Both have Baseball, Football and Hockey Teams. If you live near Mid-Ohio you get on I-71 and in an hour and 15 be in town. If you want to see Baseball that is the market, Football or Basketball. Hockey you drive an 1:15 the other way and go to Columbus. Compares not at all. Here we have Markets and M-O and Cleveland are the same.

Lets hope that Cleveland gets the go-ahead because it was one of the classic races. The start into that narrow turn one was always exciting.

Read Lewis statement "hope" and "we don't want to give any false expectations, either,"

Same language used by the IRL 3 years about Portland. Where or where is it on the schedule?
Quickest way of killing things with the IRL are "trolling" it to death.

garyshell

14th June 2008, 05:00

Here we have Markets and M-O and Cleveland are the same.

Absolutely not so. Mid-Ohio might be able to draw much of the market that Cleveland does, but the reverse is not true. There is a sizable portion of the MidOhio crowd coming from southeastern Ohio, northern Kentucky and southeast Indiana. MidOhio is a comfortable day trip for those folks, but Cleveland is not. It's pretty easy to get from Cincinnati to MidOhio on race day and back. No one would dare try that to Cleveland.

Now I realize this would become fodder for your argument that Cleveland can't be on the schedule, but I still wanted to clarify that the two tracks do cover different albeit significantly overlapping markets.

I suspect there is a portion of the Cleveland crowd that comes from northeast of the city that consider MidOhio too far away as well.

Gary

!!WALDO!!

14th June 2008, 05:02

Absolutely not so. Mid-Ohio might be able to draw much of the market that Cleveland does, but the reverse is not true. There is a sizable portion of the MidOhio crowd coming from southeastern Ohio, northern Kentucky and southeast Indiana. MidOhio is a comfortable day trip for those folks, but Cleveland is not. It's pretty easy to get from Cincinnati to MidOhio on race day and back. No one would dare try that to Cleveland.

Now I realize this would become fodder for your argument that Cleveland can't be on the schedule, but I still wanted to clarify that the two tracks do cover different albeit significantly overlapping markets.

I suspect there is a portion of the Cleveland crowd that comes from northeast of the city that consider MidOhio too far away as well.

Gary

You're right, I forgot you live in Ohio. Viva Cleveland!

garyshell

14th June 2008, 05:05

Are you aware they basically the same market only weeks apart. Would Silverstone and Brands Hatch have an F-1 GP 4 weeks apart?

If bernie would let them, i think they would. Hamilton fever has taken over.

The U.S. GP lost money every time yet you believe because of Lewis they could handle two.

Waldo, you really do have a penchant for putting words into people's mouths. Where did millencolin say a thing about the US GP??? He said that the two tracks YOU picked would most likely want to each have a race because of Hamilton. You do know what country Hamilton is from right?

Gary

!!WALDO!!

14th June 2008, 05:10

Waldo, you really do have a penchant for putting words into people's mouths. Where did millencolin say a thing about the US GP??? He said that the two tracks YOU picked would most likely want to each have a race because of Hamilton. You do know what country Hamilton is from right?

Gary

Your right, England can handle two F-1 dates while we can't get one. I am sorry I was making a comparision. Oh btw, both of those tracks I believe are in some form of receivership.

Sure, enough people to cover $70,000,000. Yup, you are right. Not enough here to cover $35,000,000.

I am never right on this stuff. Just keep on hammering away.

millencolin

14th June 2008, 06:52

Your right, England can handle two F-1 dates while we can't get one. I am sorry I was making a comparision. Oh btw, both of those tracks I believe are in some form of receivership.

Sure, enough people to cover $70,000,000. Yup, you are right. Not enough here to cover $35,000,000.

I am never right on this stuff. Just keep on hammering away.

Spain has 2 f1 races now... Due to the emergence of Fernando Alonso and the fact that populartiy of f1 in spain has also skyrocketed. Spain also has 3 MotoGp round every year due to its immense popularity and corporate might within the sport.

Same can be said in Germany when Schumacher was driving having 2 races every year at Nurburgring and Hockenhiem. The extra Spanish and German races are/were covered with the 'Euro gp' tag (or sometimes, luxembourg gp).

All i was stating was that If bernie would allow a second grand prix in england, im sure it would sell out due to the massive popularity of Lewis Hamilton. Where did i mention the fact that this would occur or where did i mention the United States gp? Perhaps Formula one isnt popular enough? i dont know, I dont know why America doesn't have a grand prix, im not Bernie. So please stop putting words in my mouth and screaming some so called figures at me. Because whatever point youre attempting to make, i'm not sure if its working.

Send a wee bit of that stuff your drinking.

Fancy a glass of chilled water then? might cool you down a bit. Dont want Wally to get all hot n bothered now :p :

xtlm

14th June 2008, 07:13

i guess i shouldn't bring in he ''they used to do it" argument, to an airport closing topic

BobGarage

14th June 2008, 08:30

Your right, England can handle two F-1 dates while we can't get one. I am sorry I was making a comparision. Oh btw, both of those tracks I believe are in some form of receivership.

Formula 1 is extremely popular in the UK. almost 4 million viewers per race (which are good viewing figures for any sports on TV in the UK), in comparison IndyCar struggles to get 30,000 veiwers per week over here. Even the Asian 3 o'clock in the morning races get those type of viewing figures! Is there such a big following in the US for F1 that can justify getting the race back?

If Brands was up to scratch for an F1 race it would sell out even if it was the following weekend from Silverstone. Formula 1 is that popular over here! Brands even gets massive crowds every year for A1GP so F1 wouldn't be a problem. And Silverstone sells out every year too and this years race has been sold out for ages. Even with the stupid prices for tickets it still sells out!

Don't forget for years Silverstone and Brands both held races of the F1 calender. They alternated the British GP for years and in the years when Brands wasn't the British GP it held the European GP.

icehammer97

14th June 2008, 10:25

There has been talk here about overlapping markets. Why not take Detroit off the schedule and replace it with Cleveland. The airport race is much better the races on the narrow streets of Belle Isle. What was is 6 cars that finished the race last year and only four on the lead lap? I know the markets of Detroit and Lexington are not overlapping like the markets of Lexington and Cleveland but they are still over 90 miles apart and like it was said before many people from Cleveland won't go to Mid-Ohio and many people from Columbus and Cincinnati would not go to Cleveland so many of the fans won't be the same or take away for each other and the ones who are between the two races might go to both. Also for the fans in Michigan put MIS back on the schedule either as a extra race or replacing a race that isn't drawing well.

!!WALDO!!

14th June 2008, 16:11

Spain has 2 f1 races now... Due to the emergence of Fernando Alonso and the fact that populartiy of f1 in spain has also skyrocketed. Spain also has 3 MotoGp round every year due to its immense popularity and corporate might within the sport.

They do? Where?

Same can be said in Germany when Schumacher was driving having 2 races every year at Nurburgring and Hockenhiem. The extra Spanish and German races are/were covered with the 'Euro gp' tag (or sometimes, luxembourg gp).

Now neither track can handle the $35,000,000 except to do it in alternate years.

All i was stating was that If bernie would allow a second grand prix in england, im sure it would sell out due to the massive popularity of Lewis Hamilton.

At tracks that are Broke, and you never see Bernie reaching into his own pocket even when Silverstone went to Bernie.

Where did i mention the fact that this would occur or where did i mention the United States gp?

If bernie would let them, i think they would. Hamilton fever has taken over.

I was comparing the fact that England because of one man could sell two GPs and the U.S. with almost as many people of African descent cannot get a GP because it is a money loser, always has been as by the way, the GP of England.

Perhaps Formula one isnt popular enough? i dont know, I dont know why America doesn't have a grand prix, im not Bernie.

Too expensive but not too expensive for England, even for two possibly. Based on Bernie's own words I would really start being concerned about hold on to one.

So please stop putting words in my mouth and screaming some so called figures at me. Because whatever point youre attempting to make, i'm not sure if its working.

What words? Figures? You mean what Bernie is asking for in 2009 per race? I can't scream at you as I am typing words. If you hear screaming then it is in your own mind.

Fancy a glass of chilled water then? might cool you down a bit. Dont want Wally to get all hot n bothered now :p :

That is my drink of choice, ice water prior to eating and fast. It causes the body temp to drop then it must burn calories to heat up, so you are burning calories as you eat. I then drinks something that was hot, cold with a stimulant in it and burn more calories.

Just me.

Lousada

14th June 2008, 16:20

!!WALDO!!

14th June 2008, 16:25

Formula 1 is extremely popular in the UK. almost 4 million viewers per race (which are good viewing figures for any sports on TV in the UK), in comparison IndyCar struggles to get 30,000 veiwers per week over here. Even the Asian 3 o'clock in the morning races get those type of viewing figures! Is there such a big following in the US for F1 that can justify getting the race back?

300,000,000 people with TVs, Bernie and the F-1 sponsors want to reach them.

If Brands was up to scratch for an F1 race it would sell out even if it was the following weekend from Silverstone. Formula 1 is that popular over here! Brands even gets massive crowds every year for A1GP so F1 wouldn't be a problem. And Silverstone sells out every year too and this years race has been sold out for ages. Even with the stupid prices for tickets it still sells out!

What is a sell out? Bernie said at USGP one, that was the largest crowd F-1 ever raced in front of. I take him at his word. So a 17 race schedule puts in what around 2,000,000 people. In 2009 the total nut will $600,000,000. No wonder he is going to governments for the money.

Don't forget for years Silverstone and Brands both held races of the F1 calender. They alternated the British GP for years and in the years when Brands wasn't the British GP it held the European GP.

Yes but not at $35,000,000 each at $1,250,000 each.

Sorry for the figures but that is what chokes me, some race fans don't see that 75,000 fans CANNOT pay for $35,000,000. Even governments are saying enough is enough. Pretty soon the whole series will revolve around oil producing states.

It is hard enough in the U.S, to make a $550,000 show NET pay. Yet, easy for England to possibly sell two GPs at two tracks that are basically broke.

Anything is possible, put the people that figured out how to put a an on the moon can't make a F-1 race profitable.

Truth is neither can anybody else. The same holds for Cleveland. Put it back on with Mid-Ohio and we take a marginally profitable show and make it a money loser as will be Cleveland, for what?

!!WALDO!!

14th June 2008, 16:30

I suggest you look on the European map where the F1 tracks are located. Especially Spa and the Nurburgring.

Been to both and Nurburging is struggling as is Spa.

I give you this, no way England or any track can come up with a 35 million sanction without goverment assistance. That's why all the old tracks pay less than half of that (and still can't make it work).
TG refuses goverment assistance for the sanction, that is the only reason he does not have a race.

It isn't TG refuses, nobody in government want to spend that bacause that is about what the revenue returned will be. 1 to 1 Why do it? Heck a sponsor wants, requires and demands a 1 to 7 return. Government would like to see the same, so TG could get $5,000,000 but that still leaves him $30,000,000 short. Old tracks will not get a break in 2009, so a new schedule will exist.
Stay with the Bikes as they are cheaper and a different crowd mixed in.

garyshell

14th June 2008, 17:20

Are you aware they basically the same market only weeks apart. Would Silverstone and Brands Hatch have an F-1 GP 4 weeks apart?

If bernie would let them, i think they would. Hamilton fever has taken over. I'd pick a diffrent country for your analogy.

Your right, England can handle two F-1 dates while we can't get one. I am sorry I was making a comparision. Oh btw, both of those tracks I believe are in some form of receivership.

All i was stating was that If bernie would allow a second grand prix in england, im sure it would sell out due to the massive popularity of Lewis Hamilton. Where did i mention the fact that this would occur or where did i mention the United States gp?

I was comparing the fact that England because of one man could sell two GPs and the U.S. with almost as many people of African descent cannot get a GP because it is a money loser, always has been as by the way, the GP of England.

Really??? Where is that comparison stated? Where is that comparison even implied? It looks like a convenient response now, but giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe it WAS in your thoughts when you wrote the reply. But you must remember we can't read your thoughts only the words on the page.

Gary

MDS

14th June 2008, 18:57

How did a posting about a potential race at Cleveland turn into an arugement about a fictious F-1 race in England?

Oh yeah, some guys will argue about anything.

!!WALDO!!

14th June 2008, 19:39

Really??? Where is that comparison stated? Where is that comparison even implied? It looks like a convenient response now, but giving the benefit of the doubt, maybe it WAS in your thoughts when you wrote the reply. But you must remember we can't read your thoughts only the words on the page.

Gary

So I MUST have to STATE A COMPARISION? I am sorry, I thought what I said was IMPLIED. In school ir wasn;t stated like that once you got past the 5th grade.

Next time I put the cute little things you do. <BITING MY FIST>

!!WALDO!!

14th June 2008, 19:40

How did a posting about a potential race at Cleveland turn into an arugement about a fictious F-1 race in England?

Oh yeah, some guys will argue about anything.

You know it is interesting, the fourth largest market in the U.S. is where?

Hint: Another place Lanigan isn't crying about.

!!WALDO!!

14th June 2008, 19:54

600 mil divided by 2 mil = $300 per person.

Bernie gets what the market will bear, regardless of source. What's so unusual about that? As soon as three or four existing tracks say "Sorry guy, you're too expensive. We've booked something else for that weekend", you'll see a turn about just like in any other market. There aren't enough asian countries panting for F1 dates to make up the loss.

Why do you suppose Bernie was so concerned about CART? It gave tracks a viable alternative to his show and at substantially less cost. It's called competition in the marketplace and it's a good thing. The IRL's challenge is to built a series that could (notice I don't say should) have a high enough profile to be competition again. Personally, I don't have a problem if the IRL is content to just built the best series in North America. That will keep everyone involved in Indy Car challenged for the next few years. And give Bernie some heartburn as sponsors who now pay outrageous prices to be part of the F1 circus might, once again, look at other possible places to spent their marketing dollars.

$300.00 would be a tough sell here. So how many in Hungrary can pay that or even it Italy?

If NASCAR was an AVERAGE of $300.00 the ball game would be over.

I understand front row at New Yankee will be $2500.00 per seat, it isn't like there are 40,000 of them, more like 1200.

I just saw $145,600 I believe puts you in the upper 5% of all wage earners in the U.S. and not many of those would drop $300.00 for a ticket. So that is 15,000,000 people, what about the remaining 285,000,000?

So the U.S. GP gets the first crowd of 125,000 then you got it. At $300 you would be lucky to get half.

DrDomm

15th June 2008, 16:33

i guess i shouldn't bring in he ''they used to do it" argument, to an airport closing topic

Logic and reason will get you nowhere with the clown leading this circus.

AntiSpeed

15th June 2008, 19:00

Hey Waldo and MDS, what did you do for CART and your team (and what team)?

I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything, I'm just curious.

!!WALDO!!

15th June 2008, 19:21

Hey Waldo and MDS, what did you do for CART and your team (and what team)?

I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything, I'm just curious.

I just stood around and looked stupid. :D

MDS

15th June 2008, 22:37

Hey Waldo and MDS, what did you do for CART and your team (and what team)?

I'm not trying to call anyone out or anything, I'm just curious.

My first ever job was cleaning up the Forsythe pit space and being a gopher for them back in 1983 when I was 13. I got paid the whopping sum of $10 a day for three weeks during May. Then did a year working on PR/driver's PA for Arciero-Wells in 1999 which went on to become PPI and then switch to NASCAR after the 2000 season. I didn't want be be on the road as much as NASCAR requires so I moved to Patrick racing.

!!WALDO!!

16th June 2008, 16:50

In 1983 you had to be 18 to be in the pits at all CART races.

Just a point of reference. IMS was 21.

dataman1

16th June 2008, 18:10

I just stood around and looked stupid. :D

What kind of anwer is that? If you want people to believe you, you should give some verification of your credentials.

!!WALDO!!

16th June 2008, 18:16

What kind of anwer is that? If you want people to believe you, you should give some verification of your credentials.

I just did, above. What credentials do you have?

See on the Internet, nobody believes anything anyone says. If I told you I was on an Advance Team, you wouldn't believe me? If I told you I supplied stories to the press, you would think it was BS. If I told you I took care of credentials and paddock passes, you would ask for proof. If I told you I did research into a CART "B" Series, you may say what is that?

So do not believe I said as this is the internet and it is all an illusion. ;)

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

ykiki

16th June 2008, 18:33

If I told you I did research into a CART "B" Series, you may say what is that?

Ummm.... I guess I'll be the foolish one that asks.

What is that?

!!WALDO!!

16th June 2008, 18:43

Roger Penske came up with an idea of a "training series" using older CART equipment.
This would have allowed teams to empty space of old obsolete equipment.
Form new ownership opportunities.
Develop new drivers, mechanics and crews.
Develop new dates away from CART.
Develop new officials.

All while being cost effective and putting money into every team's pockets.

You can guess what we got and why?

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

ykiki

16th June 2008, 20:05

coogmaster

16th June 2008, 20:13

Was it Indy Lights in the early '90s?

MDS

16th June 2008, 21:20

In 1983 you had to be 18 to be in the pits at all CART races.

Just a point of reference. IMS was 21.

Yeah, I should clarify I was never in the pits, and was only in the garage area during when cars weren't on the track, a few times at night when pretty much everyone else had gone home, but I was still techincally paid for "Sweeping on the garage," as my uncles got there start that way and thought it was an important right of passage. Largely it was just away for my uncle to give me some walking around cash and to encourage me to help look out for the younger kids, because my cousins and I did a lot of baby sitting.

dataman1

16th June 2008, 21:20

I just did, above. What credentials do you have?

See on the Internet, nobody believes anything anyone says. If I told you I was on an Advance Team, you wouldn't believe me? If I told you I supplied stories to the press, you would think it was BS. If I told you I took care of credentials and paddock passes, you would ask for proof. If I told you I did research into a CART "B" Series, you may say what is that?

So do not believe I said as this is the internet and it is all an illusion. ;)

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

I for one have learned several things from you and have actually said so to you in response or in support of your information in my posts. We didn't grow up on the same side of issues but that does not mean I have distrust or disrespect. Granted many others are full of ***** and just like to debate with you. I will not stoop to that level. If I see a need to provide a viewpoint from the other side that was not covered then I will speak up.

Remebering back at least a month ago Gary put out a thred that I intepret him saying it was time to take off our masks and state where we started, how we got involved, etc... in an effort to begin the healing process. I told the truth in my piece. Go find the old post if you wish to check my credentials. I don't care either way. I am secure in myself and my 25 years of experience in AOWR. I know that I contributed, that is until April of this year. Now I am reduced to writing rather than deeds. I will never look to this forum to validate me.

!!WALDO!!

16th June 2008, 22:13

What year was this?

1983

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!!WALDO!!

16th June 2008, 22:14

Was it Indy Lights in the early '90s?

1985 the final vote.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

!!WALDO!!

16th June 2008, 22:21

I for one have learned several things from you and have actually said so to you in response or in support of your information in my posts. We didn't grow up on the same side of issues but that does not mean I have distrust or disrespect. Granted many others are full of crap and just like to debate with you. I will not stoop to that level. If I see a need to provide a viewpoint from the other side that was not covered then I will speak up.

Remebering back at least a month ago Gary put out a thred that I intepret him saying it was time to take off our masks and state where we started, how we got involved, etc... in an effort to begin the healing process. I told the truth in my piece. Go find the old post if you wish to check my credentials. I don't care either way. I am secure in myself and my 25 years of experience in AOWR. I know that I contributed, that is until April of this year. Now I am reduced to writing rather than deeds. I will never look to this forum to validate me.

See I don't need to validate you. It is none of my business. Some want an anal exam but for what?

Kicks, grins and chucks.

Me, I read your stuff and rarely respond as there is nothing there that sways me either way. Others here just like to post as I try to set the record as straight as I am allowed. (About an inch and a half)

I am secure in myself and my 44 years of experience in AOWR and 4 years prior to that in Auto Racing, that I contributed. Many here do not like that but it is what it is.

You and I should discuss the politics of CART. Now that was fun.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

!!WALDO!!

16th June 2008, 22:23

21 to get into the garage also. I got tossed in 1970 at age 16 doing what you were doing. No women then either.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

MDS

16th June 2008, 22:32

21 to get into the garage also. I got tossed in 1970 at age 16 doing what you were doing. No women then either.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

All I can say is there are rules, and then there is enforcement of rules. My brother and cousins, including the girls, and I all have pictures of us doing it. The reasons behind this is my uncle saw this as a right of passage, it's a good story, and probably because it sounds good in an interview.

Now that I think about it though I've never actually been a live garage at Indy. We did sneek in one year after the end of the race. I think in 1993 or 1994. We found a spot in the fence and jumped it. Once we got in no one said anything to us. I remember we were going to lie and claim our parents worked for Team Penske.

!!WALDO!!

16th June 2008, 23:30

I slept in a garage on an occasion or two but, if they found you they tossed you.

In life you see things and know things to be true or false. The garages at Indy are some peoples domain and they guard it with a passion. I knew of parties that ended at the Marion County Jail with some very unhappy policemen asking really tough questions.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

pits4me

17th June 2008, 01:13

Works for me. Drop Mid O. Fast cars outgrew that track years ago. Same with Laguna, even as spectacular as the corkscrew is. They're both still really good club tracks or 2nd tier series venues.

Another Bingo with Mid Ohio! Laguna Seca is better than Sear Point from both driver and fan perspective (unless you're driving NASCABS).

As long as Mike Lanigan is a team owner, Tony cannot ignore a race in either Cleveland or Houston. Mi-Jack just starting building momentum as a promoter when KK pulled the plug.

!!WALDO!!

17th June 2008, 01:41

Mi-Jack just starting building momentum as a promoter when KK pulled the plug.

Where is Mike been?Never once read he was crying about losing those dates. Still could have done ALMS in Houston but cancelled and paid a price for that. Yet that was better than doing it.

Facts are both lost their promoters for the 2007 edition and Lanigan picked them up as the CCWS would not. Neither one made a penny otherwise they would have stated and Lanigan would have been screaming.

Nothing but silence from him and soft petaling what is going on.

I would take Houston first as it is the 4th largest market in the US.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

MDS

17th June 2008, 03:50

Where is Mike been?Never once read he was crying about losing those dates. Still could have done ALMS in Houston but cancelled and paid a price for that. Yet that was better than doing it.

Facts are both lost their promoters for the 2007 edition and Lanigan picked them up as the CCWS would not. Neither one made a penny otherwise they would have stated and Lanigan would have been screaming.

Nothing but silence from him and soft petaling what is going on.

I would take Houston first as it is the 4th largest market in the US.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

Because Lanigan hasn't been publically airing his laundry and bitching about losing Cleveland and Houston you assume that he doesn't want those dates? That seems like a leap.

It's far more likely that if he wants Cleveland and/or Houston back, he's quietly lobbing Tony George and other league officials because he's a professional who knows how to conduct his business with the proper decorum. Just because he's not childishly whining doesn't mean he's not interested.

Again, I ask you, if he's not interested what is he doing taking meetings with league and city officials? Would seem rather disingenous and misleading if he wasn't interested.

BobGarage

17th June 2008, 10:11

Where is Mike been?Never once read he was crying about losing those dates.

Just because he hasn't been publically crying doesn't mean he has washed his hands of either event.

Infact he made a statement just after Unifcation that he was talking to the IRL about both events going forwards.

I have not read anywhere that he no longer has an interest in either event. Infact you are the only person who I have heard saying that he is no longer wanting to run the events. There have been numerous sites reporting rumours that Cleveland could be on for 09. Yes just rumours at the moment but that is the only rumour about Cleveland that I am hearing.

Whilst I am happy to read your insight into AOWR's past, as it is very interesting stuff, what source of information do you have on the present goings on behind the scenes at the IRL? What do you have to confirm Langian is gone from these two events?

No news source is reporting this, so you must have a source for this bit of knowledge? Or are you just assuming he is gone because you have heard nothing? Putting 2 and 2 together and getting 6?

!!WALDO!!

17th June 2008, 15:14

Because Lanigan hasn't been publically airing his laundry and bitching about losing Cleveland and Houston you assume that he doesn't want those dates? That seems like a leap.

Not a leap at all, why then did he not do Houston with the already booked ALMS?

It's far more likely that if he wants Cleveland and/or Houston back, he's quietly lobbing Tony George and other league officials because he's a professional who knows how to conduct his business with the proper decorum. Just because he's not childishly whining doesn't mean he's not interested.

No he lost a load of money, thus the proper decorum is say nothing and hope it goes away.

Again, I ask you, if he's not interested what is he doing taking meetings with league and city officials? Would seem rather disingenous and misleading if he wasn't interested.

It appears someone met with League officials and if the city started it, he would be the promoter on record so he would be there and must be there.

NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

!!WALDO!!

17th June 2008, 15:24

Just because he hasn't been publically crying doesn't mean he has washed his hands of either event.

He paid off ALMS rather than run them and lose more money

Infact he made a statement just after Unifcation that he was talking to the IRL about both events going forwards.

Yup, right after the IRL gave $4,000,000 to the LBGP.

I have not read anywhere that he no longer has an interest in either event. Infact you are the only person who I have heard saying that he is no longer wanting to run the events. There have been numerous sites reporting rumours that Cleveland could be on for 09. Yes just rumours at the moment but that is the only rumour about Cleveland that I am hearing.

IRL said not due to the same market.

Whilst I am happy to read your insight into AOWR's past, as it is very interesting stuff, what source of information do you have on the present goings on behind the scenes at the IRL? What do you have to confirm Langian is gone from these two events?

He lost loads of money. Visiable money if you saw the races. I never said he was gone, you did. I said he was not looking to do it again. Interestingly now that Edmonton is getting that $4,000,000 now he is interested again.

No news source is reporting this, so you must have a source for this bit of knowledge? Or are you just assuming he is gone because you have heard nothing? Putting 2 and 2 together and getting 6?

IRL has 2 years left on Mid-Ohio, even though people here want to argue about things, both Mid-Ohio and Cleveland are in the same market and the IRL needs to go to another market. See it is common sense. Maybe in 2010, but the airport could be gone by then. I just would not hold my breath on this one.
There is not enough of the $4,000,000 checks to go around to prop up money losing CCWS shows.

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Spiderman

17th June 2008, 17:10

MDS

17th June 2008, 17:11

I never said he was gone, you did.

Backtrack much?

If you want, PM me and I will give you a number and I will take you to Mi-Jack and Mike.

...

Lanigan is all done and notice Mi-Jack is not on the cars like it was in Dale Coyne's Payton #34 or the Conquest effort. He too was pulling back and he was made a partner in N-H so he wouldn't leave altogether.

I'm still waiting for that number btw.

Maybe in 2010, but the airport could be gone by then.

Just stop with the completely unfounded idea that Burke is going to close. Just stop it, it's not based in any sort of real world facts. Its not going to happen in the foresable future. I realize posting your opinions as fact is your thing, but Burke is going to be around for a long time.

You clearly didn't read the link I posted. It's not prime lakefront as it is built on top of a landfill, the mayor supports it, and most importantly the Airlines don't want it to close. Because Burke takes takes operations away from the main Cleveland airport the landing fees are lower. With all the airlines fighting increased fuel costs the last thing they're going to want to let happen is closing Burke and raising landing fees elsehwere. To paraphrase the article you clearly didn't read, politicians don't decide to close airports, the FAA and airline executives do. If in the future Contenital and other airlines want to pay higher landing fees, Burke will close, but likely not before then.

!!WALDO!!

17th June 2008, 17:30

We'll see it in a couple of weeks. For the fans it would be a very good thing, because there was always good racing in Cleveland.
Anmd that's how it should be. Give the fans these tracks, where the racing is best...

So it does not matter the show loses and has been losing money? It is about giving the fans these tracks, where the racing is the best, right?

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

!!WALDO!!

17th June 2008, 17:43

Backtrack much?

LINK PLEASE

I'm still waiting for that number btw.

Reread my post. I was at 167th and Kedzie yesterday.

Just stop with the completely unfounded idea that Burke is going to close. Just stop it, it's not based in any sort of real world facts. Its not going to happen in the foresable future. I realize posting your opinions as fact is your thing, but Burke is going to be around for a long time.

Airports close, Chicago lost its third airport, downtown. 10 miles Northeast is a very busy Airport that has taken most of Burke's traffic. 1 operation per 5 minutes is nothing. Meigs was twice that and gone.

You clearly didn't read the link I posted. It's not prime lakefront as it is built on top of a landfill, the mayor supports it, and most importantly the Airlines don't want it to close. Because Burke takes takes operations away from the main Cleveland airport the landing fees are lower. With all the airlines fighting increased fuel costs the last thing they're going to want to let happen is closing Burke and raising landing fees elsehwere. To paraphrase the article you clearly didn't read, politicians don't decide to close airports, the FAA and airline executives do. If in the future Contenital and other airlines want to pay higher landing fees, Burke will close, but likely not before then.

Landfill? Really, since the airport has been there since the 1920's. The City of Cleveland pays the bills for Burke, fact of life not the opinion of the reporter. So Cleveland can close it. Cuyahoga County Airport does what Burke does. (Eddie Johnson crashed on approach there in 1974)
They have the same facilities and Instrument Approaches. County pays for that one.

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champmember

17th June 2008, 20:26

So it does not matter the show loses and has been losing money? It is about giving the fans these tracks, where the racing is the best, right?

True the races were losing money, but they were to start making money after a couple years (which would have been now) as attendance and corporate support grew. This year off will really hurt that momentum.

Also, I'm not sure if MJ promotions would take on just one race (Cleveland). Houston and Cleveland shared the same infrastructure and management team helping with cost.

No will argue that Cleveland isn't a great track, it all comes down to money and potential for the future. MJ got burned bad with this and may not be that eager to jump back aboard the promotional end. I hope they do, but as it was said previously, we will will have to wait for the schedule to be announced.

Spiderman

17th June 2008, 21:54

So it does not matter the show loses and has been losing money? It is about giving the fans these tracks, where the racing is the best, right?

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

Perhaps the fact that the sport in general was/is in a bad position is an not unimportant reason for the races losing money. If the sport grows again, its events will grow again and start to earn money again. But condition for the sport growing again is a good product to offer for the fans. Hey, an Cleveland is a pvery good place for exciting races. So I believe, it would be a good investition...

!!WALDO!!

17th June 2008, 22:58

Perhaps the fact that the sport in general was/is in a bad position is an not unimportant reason for the races losing money. If the sport grows again, its events will grow again and start to earn money again. But condition for the sport growing again is a good product to offer for the fans. Hey, an Cleveland is a pvery good place for exciting races. So I believe, it would be a good investition...

The only problem is why two races in the same market 4 weeks away. I bet that Mid-Ohio has a no compete clause in their contract with the IRL and is worth 3 years.

My point is and everybody is ducking it, is HOUSTON. The 4th largest market in the U.S. rather that the umptheen.

With a limited number of race dates, you can't afford to go into the same market twice.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

Spiderman

18th June 2008, 07:28

The only problem is why two races in the same market 4 weeks away. I bet that Mid-Ohio has a no compete clause in their contract with the IRL and is worth 3 years.

My point is and everybody is ducking it, is HOUSTON. The 4th largest market in the U.S. rather that the umptheen.

With a limited number of race dates, you can't afford to go into the same market twice.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)
It would be only for two years, that we would have two races there. And with Cleveland being a temorary circuit you can't let them wait too long. Cleveland ist a long term investment, so they should try it. I dob't think Cleveland and Houston are rivals because of the time of the year the races probably would run.

dataman1

18th June 2008, 14:45

Waldo's point about Houston is very valid. The demographics of that area are ripe for success, more so than Lanigan's other track. Lanigan is a savy business man with good people around him. He understands which will end up being the biggest race. I believe that is why things on that front are so quiet, running under the radar.

Cleveland however, sells more seats than Mid-Ohio, had more corporate sponsorship, better media coverage, closer hotels, more night spots, etc.. If I were in charge, I would find a way to get out of the Mid-Ohio deal. But I am not so this is all IMO.

!!WALDO!!

18th June 2008, 15:33

It would be only for two years, that we would have two races there. And with Cleveland being a temorary circuit you can't let them wait too long. Cleveland ist a long term investment, so they should try it. I dob't think Cleveland and Houston are rivals because of the time of the year the races probably would run.

It is dates, I bet only one or two will be added next year. TG wants Mexico or something early. Now it is one. Cleveland can't go in Feburary or March.
Houston can go early in the spring maybe between St Pete and LB.

!!WALDO!!

18th June 2008, 15:34

Cleveland however, sells more seats than Mid-Ohio, had more corporate sponsorship, better media coverage, closer hotels, more night spots, etc.. If I were in charge, I would find a way to get out of the Mid-Ohio deal. But I am not so this is all IMO.

Really, they had less than 30,000 seat last year according to post race sources.

dataman1

18th June 2008, 18:38

Really, they had less than 30,000 seat last year according to post race sources.

Can't look at one year in a series that most of you considered a joke and use that data to justify a point. Since TG wants the new series to look like the old CART go back to when CART ran both places and look at attendance. My bet is that Cleveland out performed Mid-Ohio and that is why Mid-Ohio was dropped from the schedule.

In other words, your point is valid, can't have 2 races that close together.

!!WALDO!!

18th June 2008, 18:49

Can't look at one year in a series that most of you considered a joke and use that data to justify a point. Since TG wants the new series to look like the old CART go back to when CART ran both places and look at attendance. My bet is that Cleveland out performed Mid-Ohio and that is why Mid-Ohio was dropped from the schedule.

In other words, your point is valid, can't have 2 races that close together.

Well. Mid-Ohio was dropped because they wanted to pay what Portland, RA, and Cleveland. The standard Sanction under CART was $3,500,000. All three tracks screamed and Pook cut it under the table for them to $1,250,000. Well when the Three Amigos took over everyone was to pay the new $3,600,000, but the word was out. So more tracks wanted deals cut. Mid-Ohio and Laguna Seca being 2 of them and eventually Montreal. When they wouldn't pay it they were dropped.
Under Lanigan was the first time that Cleveland paid a full sanction since 2002.

No TG does not want it to look like CART, he wants shows that remain on the schedule year after year. That really wasn't an issue in CART.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

dataman1

18th June 2008, 21:57

Waldo,

Hypothetical question: Which do you think, Mid-Ohio or Cleveland, would produce the best attendance and/or exposure for the series, assuming they are promoted equally?

!!WALDO!!

18th June 2008, 22:13

Waldo,

Hypothetical question: Which do you think, Mid-Ohio or Cleveland, would produce the best attendance and/or exposure for the series, assuming they are promoted equally?

Mid-Ohio, it draws from more markets. Cleveland doesn't it is too bad but it ran its course.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

pits4me

18th June 2008, 22:24

Where is Mike been?Never once read he was crying about losing those dates. Still could have done ALMS in Houston but cancelled and paid a price for that. Yet that was better than doing it.

Facts are both lost their promoters for the 2007 edition and Lanigan picked them up as the CCWS would not. Neither one made a penny otherwise they would have stated and Lanigan would have been screaming.

Nothing but silence from him and soft petaling what is going on.

I would take Houston first as it is the 4th largest market in the US.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

You seem to have an answer for everything Waldo. If you had all the facts you wouldn't be grabbing at straws. Lanigan doesn't play ball in the media, he yields his big stick very quietly and from a position of strength. He is known to keep his friends close and his enemies even closer. Like Carl Haas, he'll give TG just enough rope. Don't forget who was behind the 1st Houston Texaco GP.

!!WALDO!!

18th June 2008, 23:41

You seem to have an answer for everything Waldo.
Nope logic is the answer here.

If you had all the facts you wouldn't be grabbing at straws.

What straws are those?

Lanigan doesn't play ball in the media, he yields his big stick very quietly and from a position of strength.

What strength is that, being talked into doing two money losing races in exchange for a "part" ownership in Haas? Ever see his operation? Maybe I need to take a picture of it.

He is known to keep his friends close and his enemies even closer.

Who are his friends, Conquest Racing, Dale Coyne?

Like Carl Haas, he'll give TG just enough rope.

Nope he needs TG's $4,000,000.00. If he is hung then no check.

Don't forget who was behind the 1st Houston Texaco GP.

Carl Haas but notice how he ran from the second edition?

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

Spiderman

19th June 2008, 08:07

It is dates, I bet only one or two will be added next year. TG wants Mexico or something early. Now it is one. Cleveland can't go in Feburary or March.
Houston can go early in the spring maybe between St Pete and LB.

It's all speculation! We'll wait and see. From what you're writing here, it's clear you don't now more than anybody else here!

BobGarage

19th June 2008, 08:53

Nope logic is the answer here.

And that is exactly your problem.

You are using your logic to make assumptions. However, you post those assumptions as if they are facts! They are not! Maybe you should try saying "in my opinion x, y, z will happen" more often.

Just because something is logical, doesn't mean it will happen! ;)

!!WALDO!!

19th June 2008, 15:26

And that is exactly your problem.

You are using your logic to make assumptions. However, you post those assumptions as if they are facts! They are not! Maybe you should try saying "in my opinion x, y, z will happen" more often.

Just because something is logical, doesn't mean it will happen! ;)

My assumptions? Ok, then rewrite what happened then we can all throw lgic, signed contracts and huge financial losses out the window.

Ask you self this, Lanigan had a signed contract to run ALMS at Houston and cancelled it paying a penalty. Laguna Seca, had a signed Contract to run Grand-Am on the Champ Car weekend and did. Why?

Logic or pure chance?

Look the IRL said two races will not happen in that market. IRL signs deals for three years, I AM ASSUMING, that there is a no compete clause in the contract as if I was running the deal at M-O I would want the only INDY CAR RACE IN THE STATE.

TG has/is giving $4,000,000 to LBGP and Edmonton. If I could get a group together I would just to get my mitts on the $4M in kind to at least give the promotion a fighting chance to work.

So for Lanigan to come out of the woodwork for that money is not stupid, who else did also. Again TG wants early dates, thus Houston seems more logical.

That right we can't use logic, right?

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

BobGarage

19th June 2008, 15:30

That right we can't use logic, right?

I didn't say we can't use logic. I said just because something is logcial doesn't mean it will happen. ;-)

!!WALDO!!

19th June 2008, 15:39

I didn't say we can't use logic. I said just because something is logcial doesn't mean it will happen. ;-)

The logic put out by TG is early dates, Feburary, March.

Then isn't logical to consider Cleveland out of that equation?

Then isn't logical that Houston could be considered?

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

BobGarage

19th June 2008, 15:46

The logic put out by TG is early dates, Feburary, March.

Then isn't logical to consider Cleveland out of that equation?

Then isn't logical that Houston could be considered?

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

it seems you are not listening to what I am saying. Just because something is logical doesn't mean it will happen. The same in reverse also works... just because something is ilogical doesn't mean it won't happen.

Both the IRL and CC/CART in their past have made ilogical decisions. Just because they were ilogical it didn't stop the decisions being made.

My point was that you are stating things as fact based on logic. They are not fact just logic makes you assume that it should happen. (not will happen should happen!) You are then posting your assumptions as fact when they clearly are not fact, just a logical assumption. hence my point that maybe you should put an "in my opinion" in front of soem of your posts, because that is all they are.. your opinion, not fact!

On the subject of Houston I agree that it is logical for Houston to have one of the early dates. But then when has logic made anything a reality in AOWR over the last 13 years?

Hoss Ghoul

19th June 2008, 16:03

Why worry so much about it? We'll know in September, or there-about. Cleveland is a neat race, but it isn't some massive historical gem(IndyCar has few of these anyways). Houston is irrelevant from a fan stand point, IMO.

I'd love to see Cleveland back personally, especially if it means dropping/replacing a 1.5 miler, but not at the expense of Mid-Ohio.

!!WALDO!!

19th June 2008, 19:13

it seems you are not listening to what I am saying. Just because something is logical doesn't mean it will happen. The same in reverse also works... just because something is ilogical doesn't mean it won't happen.

The IRL is trying for schedule consistency. Now that is logical. The problem is taking on dates that the CCWS had and making them fit. The CCWS fans expect the IRL to cancel and move dates, which is illogical.

Both the IRL and CC/CART in their past have made ilogical decisions. Just because they were ilogical it didn't stop the decisions being made.

True but only in hind sight but in fore sight just not completely thought out or not looking at all the issues that affect the sport.

My point was that you are stating things as fact based on logic. They are not fact just logic makes you assume that it should happen. (not will happen should happen!) You are then posting your assumptions as fact when they clearly are not fact, just a logical assumption. hence my point that maybe you should put an "in my opinion" in front of soem of your posts, because that is all they are.. your opinion, not fact!

Sorry, I do not deal with opinions; I deal only in the facts of history. I gave you things that actually occurred. Now you may think this is opinion but it isn’t. If you choose not to believe what happened then it is your choice. Opinions are for those wanting to guess like in the 15th market in the U.S. we should do two races in 4 weeks time, 125 miles apart. That is an illogical opinion due to IRL people saying, no way.

On the subject of Houston I agree that it is logical for Houston to have one of the early dates. But then when has logic made anything a reality in AOWR over the last 13 years?

The 4th largest market according to some is not important. Logic tells me that if TG is passing out $4,000,000 then there are people knocking on the door like Biloxi, Portland, SMI, ICS and a few other strange places. Problem is TV money may only allow for 1 or 2 races added. That is logical that it can only be stretched so far before the deal is redone. Now 2010, all bets are off but still only one race in Ohio.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

BobGarage

19th June 2008, 19:59

Sorry, I do not deal with opinions; I deal only in the facts of history. I gave you things that actually occurred. Now you may think this is opinion but it isn’t. If you choose not to believe what happened then it is your choice. Opinions are for those wanting to guess

You only deal in the facts of history? But we are talking about a possible Cleveland race date in the future! Everything you say about said possible future race date is your opinion because the events have not yet happened!!!

I have never questioned anything you have said on past events, your knowledge there is far greater than mine and I enjoy reading your factual posts on past events.

What I am debating is your opinions on the possible future event for which you cannot refer to the past as it has not yet happened! As it has not yet happened we are not dealing with "facts of history".

!!WALDO!!

19th June 2008, 20:34

You only deal in the facts of history? But we are talking about a possible Cleveland race date in the future! Everything you say about said possible future race date is your opinion because the events have not yet happened!!!

The IRL said they will not do two races in that market. I have stated that 12 times and people have stated their opinion that isn’t true. I pointed out facts to why not including a bit of history. (From history is our future)
Why are you so interested in this event? Do you attend it or something? I have been to it a dozen times at least. One of my favorite races but reality and the words of those in charge tell me it isn’t going to happen.

I have never questioned anything you have said on past events, your knowledge there is far greater than mine and I enjoy reading your factual posts on past events.
I enjoy writing them. Why do you think I am writing about that year, 1968? There are parallels to today.

What I am debating is your opinions on the possible future event for which you cannot refer to the past as it has not yet happened! As it has not yet happened we are not dealing with "facts of history".

So losing money in 2005, 2006 and 2007 is not important to the future of the event? The IRL took two shows that made money or lost marginal money. Had Cleveland made money then maybe the IRL would have taken Cleveland. Again, they more than likely have a no compete clause in their contract with Mid-Ohio. I realize that contracts are meant to be broken but that is the way of making enemies real quick. Remember Honda was behind the Mid-Ohio date and I think we should go out of our way to slap them in the face.
So where are my opinions? I only stated one.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

MDS

19th June 2008, 20:59

The IRL said they will not do two races in that market.

Then why are they taking meetings with Cleveland?

From my vantage point you seem to be taking one statement use it as an absolute certainty when even the casual observe has to believe that statement isn't set in stone.

The way I see it there are a couple scenarios that could be playing out.

1. It's a courtesy meeting: The city of Cleveland asked for a meeting, and the IRL is giving them a meeting in the hopes of not burning any bridges.

2. The IRL is considering changing their minds: When those league officials made those statements, which I personally haven't seen so a link would be nice, they have examined the situation and are open to reversing their position and running both races.

3. Honda wants more exposure: I don't think anyone doubts a Honda Grand Prix of Cleveland would be sucessful, more so than the company picnic that is Mid-Ohio. It is possible that Honda wants to move their support from Mid-Ohio to Cleveland and are willing to pay to get out of contract with Mid-Ohio.

4. Lanigan has more power than we thought: Perhaps the reason we aren't hearing anything about Houston is because it's a done deal, but in order to get Houston Lanigan wants Cleveland to make the numbers work for him in Houston.

Obviously the most likely option is the first option. It's a pretty common business practice to have a meeting so that both sides can save face. But its also fairly common for the actual negotations to be kept truely quiet and for very few people to actually know what's going on.

As far as the IRL trying to build consistant dates we know the schedule is going to change. In all likelyness its going to be an 18 race 9 oval 9 road schedule or a 20 50/50 schedule and that means at least one oval is comming off, possibly as many as three to be at 9/9 with adding New Hampshire.

One more wild rumor I heard from a crew member is that four ovals are going to be dropped (Kansas, Chicago, Homestead and Nashville) and two added Pheonix and New Hampshire. The Kansas date would go to Houston and the Chicago date to Cleveland. The Homestead date would go to Pheonix and Nashville would go New Hampshire. This is based on the idea that 18 events is the absolute most ABC is willing to broadcast next year without some significant ratings improvement

We know things are going to change, what we don't know is how much.