Who's the best Vauxhall BTCC driver ever ??

[stevevxr]

Hallo Vauxhall fan's !!!

I've been following Vauxhall Motorsport since 1989.... such a long time ago !!

I was thinking who's the best BTCC driver Vauxhall have ever had ???

My hero of BTCC is John Cleland. He was such a star on and off the track and he showed the BMW and Cosworth driver's a thing or too in the mighty Cavalier GSI.

Jeff Allam. James Thompson. David leslie (RIP). Bobby Verdon Roe. Derek Warick. Yvan Muller, Giovanardi, Chilton, Neal and many more....

John Cleland is and will always be the star for me....

What do you think Vauxhall fans....

Also what car did you like ???

Astra GTE
Cavalier GSi
Vectra GSi
Astra Coupe
Astra Sports Hatch
Vectra VXR

Looking forward to your views Vauxhall fans !!!!

[BDunnell]

It has to be John Cleland. Along with various contemporaries, he helped define the best era of the BTCC, and brought a real fire and personality to the championship. Whether Muller and Giovanardi, both of whom are superb, are better touring car drivers I really wouldn't like to say, but neither is as legendary in my eyes as Cleland.

[wedge]

It has to be John Cleland. Along with various contemporaries, he helped define the best era of the BTCC, and brought a real fire and personality to the championship. Whether Muller and Giovanardi, both of whom are superb, are better touring car drivers I really wouldn't like to say, but neither is as legendary in my eyes as Cleland.

Couldn't put it any better :up:

Plato is up there as well

[stevevxr]

Its good to know there are JC fans out there !!!!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Cleland is a BTCC legend, but he was outperformed by Muller in 1999 (although JC had lost interest and the car didn't suit him)

I rate Muller higher than Giovanardi, i'm not sure why though. Maybe it's because Muller did better with the Astra Sport Hatch, even if it was in two different seasons.

I liked Muller after what he achieved in that dog of an Audi in 1998 (running with the front pack). He could easily have been a 4 time champion.

[VkmSpouge]

It would probably be John Cleland for me as well. Great driver and always had something to say in interviews.

My favourite touring car Vauxhall would be the Cavalier with the Astra coupé being second.

[wedge]

I rate Muller higher than Giovanardi, i'm not sure why though. Maybe it's because Muller did better with the Astra Sport Hatch, even if it was in two different seasons.

I liked Muller after what he achieved in that dog of an Audi in 1998 (running with the front pack). He could easily have been a 4 time champion.

I have a similar conundrum. Perhaps he looked a bit average in his debut year and similarly this year he looks average at times but this year has greater strength and depth compared to last year.

[racer69]

David Coulthard?

Markus Oesterich was a great touring car driver as well internationally

These guys only got one-offs in the second Cavalier though in 1990, how would they have gone with more races ;)

[Iain]

As did Bob Berridge and Chris Hodgetts. ;)

Can't believe you even have to ask such a question Steve. You should have just said "Cleland is a touring car god - discuss". :D :champion:

[vx1054]

John Cleland is my favourite BTCC racer of all time, the most entertaining on and off track, I am a huge fan of Giovanardi and Muller also, they stood out for me with their racecraft and car control, and they also put their respective team mates in the shade, although Tom Onslow Cole is fairing better than most.

Favourite car has to be the Cavalier (esp the 95 car), but do have a soft spot the current Vectra.

[VX_Rules]

Im too young to really comment on such a thing, but of footage and reputation all I would guess at that Cleland was a bit of a ledgend. As for car, I would say the Astra Coupe purely because it was so successful and held on to alot of the track records for a long time, and still does a few. The rest of the BTCC track records are mainly the Astra Sporthatch and Vectra VXR though.

[Iain]

I forgot to mention car. The old Cavalier was my favourite, especially in 1994 GM Card colours or the Ecurie Ecosse livery of 1993. When I was a kid I actually wanted a white Nova with the yellow Vauxhall Sport livery on it. :laugh: But by the time I got my licence, I had lost interest in Vauxhall when JC retired and realised the value of money and how silly that would have looked. :p :

[VkmSpouge]

The Ecurie Ecosse livery in 1993 was beautiful, one of the best ever.

[SEATFreak]

IMHO I think Vauxhalls drivers have just gotten better and better with every year I have watched them from Croft or my armchair. Every succesive driver it seems has improved on the one before. I didn't think it was possible to best Yvan Muller until Fabrizio was aquired from the WTCC. A totally new star in my eyes.

They have uncharacteristically had their flops like possibly Gavin Smith and Luke Hines but they are rare for a team as huge as 888.

In order for Fabrizio to be bettered I reckon it would have to take a very very good Augusto Farfus.

[stevevxr]

The Ecurie Ecosse livery in 1993 was beautiful, one of the best ever.


Have to agree with you on that one.... That was such great livery !!!

Plus the late David leslie drove it (RIP).

I think the GM Card and Vauxhall masterfit livery cars were very nice too. :)

[BDunnell]

Cleland is a BTCC legend, but he was outperformed by Muller in 1999 (although JC had lost interest and the car didn't suit him)

Not really the best year by which to judge Cleland, in my view!

[wedge]

IMHO I think Vauxhalls drivers have just gotten better and better with every year I have watched them from Croft or my armchair. Every succesive driver it seems has improved on the one before. I didn't think it was possible to best Yvan Muller until Fabrizio was aquired from the WTCC. A totally new star in my eyes.

Gio doesn't appear as the type who enjoys the limelight. I get the impression he's earnt respect in the BTCC. Does he actually have a following early last year?

On the otherhand Muller loved the attention whether or not he was the good guy or bad guy!

[Eurotech]

James Thompson and the 2004 Astra Coupe

(I prefered the 2004 paint job!)

[LiamM]

John Cleland and Derek Warwick was the best pairing for a long time in a Vauxhall IMO

[Martin-MC]

Cleland was a legend behind the wheel but if memory serves me didnt he win one title back in the Cossie era when driving the Astra against weaker opposition in a different class? Taking nothing away from him though his title in the Cavalier was against all the best on offer and he won fair and square.
Its always hard to compare drivers from different eras even from Cleland to Gio today, may be only 15/20 years but different totally.
Look at the bigger picture to what they have done in other machineery and formula and Gios career record speaks for itself.
Also Muller he can pedal anything, Ice racing being one thing he dominated for 7 years.
James Thompson as well, two BTCC titles but put him back in a car now and im sure he would add more, watched him go rallying with interest a few years back and it didnt take him long to get right up to speed on tarmac with the best drivers in Ireland and UK on that surface. He had a few big accidents though but had he stuck at it he would of won a BRC event by now.
Those four without doubt the pick of the crop.

[SEATFreak]

What about Paul O'Neil?

[vx1054]

Or Andy Prialux, although it was only for one meeting, Oulton Park in 2001 I think, stepping in for a suspended Phil Bennett.

[MrJan]

JC, a legend for a good reason.

[stevenlcroucher]

Let's not forget the late great Gerry Marshall who in one race needed only three laps in qualifying to start on pole.

[Martin-MC]

Let's not forget the late great Gerry Marshall who in one race needed only three laps in qualifying to start on pole.

Well said but going back years now LOL
He always carried top weight too the big fella, top driver and down to earth human being sadly missed.

[reidy_fan]

has to be John Cleland man is simply a touring car legend

having said that Thommo proved himself in the old astra

[MrJan]

Let's not forget the late great Gerry Marshall who in one race needed only three laps in qualifying to start on pole.

Good shout. Well before my time but a name that has carried from previous generations.

I'm sticking with Cleland but remember when Tarquini came along and Alfa had the aero package, he was certainly a great driver (and my middle name is Gabriel so as a youngun who hated his name it was nice to know that there were others out there :D

I think Giovanardi is pretty good too but I hesitate to mention any of the current crop as truly great drivers. Back before themanufacturers fled the series and we had Peugeot, Volvo, Renault, Ford and many others competing, most of them with top drivers behind the wheel, it was much better IMO.


Oh and let's not forget the Jurgen Klinsmann of the BTCC, Smoking Jo.



edit:OOPS. JUST REALISED THAT THE OP SAYS Vauxhall.

[Robinho]

tough call between Cleland, Muller and Giovanardi for me, but Cleland probably just shades it for me, and i always had a soft spot for the Cavalier GSI. honourable mention to Thommo too

[AndySpeed]

I'm extremely surprised that Jeff Allam hasn't had a mention yet...

[thetrooper_scot]

I reckon John Cleland is the best and his 1995 winning Cavalier SRI.

[Iain]

I'm extremely surprised that Jeff Allam hasn't had a mention yet...

I've spotted him at a few meetings in recent times. Still looks as miserable as ever. :p :


I reckon John Cleland is the best and his 1995 winning Cavalier SRI.

Cavalier 16V ;)

[BDunnell]

I think it's worth saying in this context that Dave Richards stated a few years back that John Cleland's name should be as synonymous with Vauxhall in tin-top terms as Gerry Marshall's, which seems like a very fair judgement.

[stevevxr]

I think it's worth saying in this context that Dave Richards stated a few years back that John Cleland's name should be as synonymous with Vauxhall in tin-top terms as Gerry Marshall's, which seems like a very fair judgement.


Yep i with you on that one :wave:

[mpj4582]

John Cleland, no doubt! I remember feeling like the only one in the crowd at Donington in 1998 during "that race" cheering on Cleland rather than Mansell! Legend!

[LiamM]

John Cleland, no doubt! I remember feeling like the only one in the crowd at Donington in 1998 during "that race" cheering on Cleland rather than Mansell! Legend!

No you wasn't cos I was too

[mpj4582]

Good man! It was great publicity for the championship, having a name like Mansell competing at the front, as long as he didn't win! LOL

[Mark]

Phil Bennett :D

[thetrooper_scot]

I've spotted him at a few meetings in recent times. Still looks as miserable as ever. :p :



Cavalier 16V ;)
Yes it was but it was based on the SRI not the GSI as in previous years ;)

[Allyc85]

John Cleland is my favourite BTCC racer of all time, the most entertaining on and off track, I am a huge fan of Giovanardi and Muller also, they stood out for me with their racecraft and car control, and they also put their respective team mates in the shade, although Tom Onslow Cole is fairing better than most.

Favourite car has to be the Cavalier (esp the 95 car), but do have a soft spot the current Vectra.

I couldnt have put it better myself, apart from the vectra :P

[NoahsGirl]

Ooooh, tough call, but its between Cleland, Muller and Giovanardi. JC just shades it though, but it's very tough.

[SEATFreak]

Plato is up there as well

I have looked hard through both pages and your the only one who has mentioned Jase'.

I would have thought being 2001 Champion for them and given his performances in 2000 and 2001 would have given him some weight as a candidate.

I mean if this was an actual poll with real votes I would vote for him. For me he, with Yvan, started of Vauxhalls dominance of the BTCC in the 21st Century. Showed the world just how powerful Vauxhall are as a touring car manufacturer.

[Dave B]

I mean if this was an actual poll with real votes....
Why not request one? :)

[wedge]

I have looked hard through both pages and your the only one who has mentioned Jase'.

I would have thought being 2001 Champion for them and given his performances in 2000 and 2001 would have given him some weight as a candidate.

I mean if this was an actual poll with real votes I would vote for him. For me he, with Yvan, started of Vauxhalls dominance of the BTCC in the 21st Century. Showed the world just how powerful Vauxhall are as a touring car manufacturer.

Good observation!

I don't understand why Plato's overlooked, his battle with Muller is supposed to go down in BTCC history?

[Iain]

It was good battle but he overstepped the mark that year.........

[rwssport]

Will always be Cleland for me - just loved the guy's attitude both in and out the car. How many other drivers would have said they were retiring at the end of the year live on TV before telling their bosses. David Leslie as well - as far as driving goes an equal of Cleland but not quite so "in your face" as John.

Plato for me can at times be a bit like Mansell - everyone has got it in for me and it's never my fault - No way as severe with it as Mansell though.

Stands back ready for the flack...

[MrJan]

I have looked hard through both pages and your the only one who has mentioned Jase'.

I would have thought being 2001 Champion for them and given his performances in 2000 and 2001 would have given him some weight as a candidate.

I mean if this was an actual poll with real votes I would vote for him. For me he, with Yvan, started of Vauxhalls dominance of the BTCC in the 21st Century. Showed the world just how powerful Vauxhall are as a touring car manufacturer.

More down to a history of being in the BTCC and one of the few manufacturers during a lean spell. To be honest I find Plato's time as a Vauxhall driver fairly forgettable and think of him more as a Renualt and Seat man.

Remember that Cleland and Marshall were proper Vauxhall drivers in the sense that they rarely drove elsewhere. Muller too spent a long time with them, even though he started out in the Audi.

[SEATFreak]

Why not request one? :)

That wouldn't be a bad idea! I will PM Mark or Iain about that ASAP.


Good observation!

I don't understand why Plato's overlooked, his battle with Muller is supposed to go down in BTCC history?

Thanks Wedge. ;)

Their was that famous colliding of the two at Silverstone I think it was which supposedly caused the rift that still seems to exist between the two men today.


It was good battle but he overstepped the mark that year.........

In what way?


More down to a history of being in the BTCC and one of the few manufacturers during a lean spell. To be honest I find Plato's time as a Vauxhall driver fairly forgettable and think of him more as a Renualt and Seat man.

Remember that Cleland and Marshall were proper Vauxhall drivers in the sense that they rarely drove elsewhere. Muller too spent a long time with them, even though he started out in the Audi.

I think you have a very valid point. I think a driver can be credited with one particular team if he drives for them long enough. For me the only reason why I find it hard to look beyond Yvan, other than Gio of course, is because he was with Vauxhall for the first 5 years of my life as a fan of this series. Seven in total because he signed from Audi in 1998.

[Iain]

Their was that famous colliding of the two at Silverstone I think it was which supposedly caused the rift that still seems to exist between the two men today.

They have no rift between them now, it's mostly media spin that has been put on the situation. Infact they have quite a healthy respect for eachother. :)




In what way?

The coming together you mentioned above was one example.

[TCuns]

and Plato v Neal, seems to have a lot more spice over more years than muller v plato

[Winchester]

I interviewed Plato before Silverstone 2005 when it was Muller v Neal for the title.
I asked him who he wanted to win, fully expecting him to say Neal, and he said Muller because he respected the way he drove that Sport Hatch into the ground to get it at the front.
So maybe their 'spat' is long dead!

[Daz]

There are 3 drivers I can think of. Cleland, Muller and Giovanardi in most order of winning BTCC titles. I had had to pick one of them it would have to be Muller. Mainly due to his other wins in the Andros ice racing series and for holding the best slide ever at Church at Thruxton a few years back :D

[C64WDU]

John Cleland in the Astra, Richard Kaye's Fujifilm (total cup) Cav had the best colourscheme.

[daz90]

Cleland was and always will be my BTCC driving hero, but in his day Andy Rouse was about the best there ever has been, not only a driver but an outstanding engineer in his own right, Rouse built and raced his cars, and did it to an extremly high standard winning trophys left right and centre.

I dont have a favourite from the current crop, i dont even bother following it much these days, my interest went when the old super tourers died, however with the reamergence of one or two proper four dour cars it is atleast an improvement on the hatchbacks and coupe's from a year or so ago. However i doubt we will ever see the heady heights of the mid 90's, not with the WTCC enjoying its success and the best drivers going in that direction.

[Abo]

IMHO I think Vauxhalls drivers have just gotten better and better with every year I have watched them from Croft or my armchair. Every succesive driver it seems has improved on the one before. I didn't think it was possible to best Yvan Muller until Fabrizio was aquired from the WTCC. A totally new star in my eyes

As a Vauxhall man (I'm on my 7th Vauxhall now...) I'm happy that Vauxhall in BTCC have mostly been great (barring the lean patch with the Vectra-B) :s mokin:

[Eurotech]

Isnt is strange that Muller started at one VW Company (Audi) and has ended up back at VW with SEAT.

But of course it is the Stint at Vauxhall that counts most for him.

I really want to see Gio, Thommo, Muller and Clelands battle it out in Identical cars to see who wins........

[Iain]

Muller actually started out with ORECA BMW in touring cars and the Andros Trophee, who now run his WTCC SEAT. :)