Another what if

[Bob Riebe]

Roger Ward, after a second and a first in the first two races '66, had a horrendously bad car at Indy (the mechanics installed the steering box wrong) and said when racing stopped being fun he would quit, so he park the nasty Indy car and retired from racing mid-race.

What if he had not quit, but had stayed around.
He was in the Andretti, Foyt, Unser caliber of racing driver. Had he stayed around for another seven years or so, how do you think racing might have been different?
Bob

[!!WALDO!!]

Roger Ward, after a second and a first in the first two races '66, had a horrendously bad car at Indy (the mechanics installed the steering box wrong) and said when racing stopped being fun he would quit, so he park the nasty Indy car and retired from racing mid-race.

What if he had not quit, but had stayed around.
He was in the Andretti, Foyt, Unser caliber of racing driver. Had he stayed around for another seven years or so, how do you think racing might have been different?
Bob

I saw Rodger race and interviewed him later. Like Parnelli did two years later Rodger walked away from Champ Car racing but did race some NASCAR West Races into 1968.
Rodger gave up the DIRT after the 1964 season and had 26 wins which at that time made him only the second driver to pass DePalma's 25 win mark which was the standard. Foyt went past it in 1964, Ward in 1966, Andretti in 1969 and Al in 1973. So Rodger was the best but when he retired he was 47 years old and the speed was working at him.
Had he poked and steered the car he may have won as his teammate led and broke and his other one went on to win.

Rodger also flew P-51s in WWII I believe.

[Bob Riebe]

I saw Rodger race and interviewed him later. Like Parnelli did two years later Rodger walked away from Champ Car racing but did race some NASCAR West Races into 1968.
Rodger gave up the DIRT after the 1964 season and had 26 wins which at that time made him only the second driver to pass DePalma's 25 win mark which was the standard. Foyt went past it in 1964, Ward in 1966, Andretti in 1969 and Al in 1973. So Rodger was the best but when he retired he was 47 years old and the speed was working at him.
Had he poked and steered the car he may have won as his teammate led and broke and his other one went on to win.

Rodger also flew P-51s in WWII I believe.
He was only 45 in 1966, and was still at the top of his game.
I read a quote from him some years ago that when he did retire, what the Andretti, Foyts and Unsers did was NOT common, i.e. just keep on racing into their forties, and thought MAYBE he quit to soon.
But it WOULD HAVE been interesting, especially some Indy wins might be different.
Bob

[!!WALDO!!]

He was only 45 in 1966, and was still at the top of his game.
I read a quote from him some years ago that when he did retire, what the Andretti, Foyts and Unsers did was NOT common, i.e. just keep on racing into their forties, and thought MAYBE he quit to soon.
But it WOULD HAVE been interesting, especially some Indy wins might be different.
Bob

Rodger Ward 56 points (First 5 races 1951-1955)-23.2 average finish, 20.6 average start, 54.6% Laps finished and led 0.00% of the laps. (2.6 positions lost per race) 15 races total-13.47 average finish, 12.27 average start, 72.00% Laps finished and led 12.08% of the laps. (1.20 positions lost per race)

Rodger lost many friends over the years and since he was fired from Wilkie-Watson in 1965 his heart wasn't in it. I saw the second place run at PIR in 1966 and it was because of attrition and his Trenton win came because Mario was laps ahead and had a flat tire and pitted, attrition put Rodger in the lead and it rained at lap 102.

He suffered from a spine injury in the 1962 LA Times GP at Riverside that took much spunk out. Like I said he retired from Indy Cars and off all the 500 winners Rodger was the most broke as he had at least three wives.

Rodger got to survive the sport but many of his peers, Elisian, Reese, Bettenhausen, Thomson, Amick, Sachs, Duman, MacDonald, Bryan, Bisch and countless others did not. Nice guy, great story teller and in 1968 when the First Race to be Televised Live was the Springfield 100 for the Wide World of Sports it was Jim McKay and a former winner of the Bettenhausen 100, Rodger Ward doing the race.

Speculation is fine but in Rodger was really done when he failed to make the 1965 500 ending his streak which was the longest in history at that point.
When Rodger arrived in 1959 until the end of 1963 he and Foyt put on some great races.

[Bob Riebe]

[b]
Rodger lost many friends over the years and since he was fired from Wilkie-Watson in 1965 his heart wasn't in it. I saw the second place run at PIR in 1966 and it was because of attrition and his Trenton win came because Mario was laps ahead and had a flat tire and pitted, attrition put Rodger in the lead and it rained at lap 102.

Don't-DON'T take away credit for his wins by some rationalizing.

THERE are MANY races won under those circumstances, and where were the superior drivers. THEY should have finished second and won the second race!

I am not going to turn this into a ***** match, but your opinion thinking he was washed-up is not backed by facts.
His '65 car is considered by most to be a crap-wagon, and the results show it.
His '66 car was not and the results show it. Had the moron mechanics installed the steering box correctly the '66 Indy could have easily been won by him. The fact he drove the car as long as he did without crashihg speaks volumes.
I was wondering how history would have changed, you think he was washed up FINE, but do not give BS statistics to back it up.

As I said, in an interview some years back, even he thought, maybe, he might have quite to soon.
Bob

[indycool]

I think his retirement was a surprise to most. Back then, it was difficult for many drivers to make the transition from front to rear-engine cars and he had made it well. Many didn't. I read an interview with "Caveman" Bob Christie, who also made the transition at the end of his career, talking about it. It wasn't easy. Bob had a stroke a few years ago but can still talk....maybe it's time somebody gave him a call in Grant's Pass, Ore.

[!!WALDO!!]

Don't-DON'T take away credit for his wins by some half-assed rationalizing.

Sir, where did I do that? I pointed out some, just some of his friends he lost while competing including Jimmy Bryan at Langhorne in his car because Rodger felt the place too dangerous.


THERE are MANY races won under those circumstances, and where the hell were the superior drivers. THEY should have finished second and won the second race!

Rodger won races with Roger Wolcott but also was too hard on equipment. It wasn't until 1959 when Rodger got top equipment and won the 500 and National Driving Title in 1959 and 1962. Foyt won the National Driving Title 4 times from 1960-1964 with Ward finishing 3rd twice and 2nd Twice. The years Ward won, Foyt finished 5th and 2nd.


I am not going to turn this into a pissing match, but your opinion thinking he was washed-up is not backed by facts.
His '65 car is considered by most to be a crap-wagon, and the results show it.

Facts? He won no races in 1964. Was out of the car in 4 races in 1965, teamed up in the ex-Agajanian Lola-Ford for John Mecum with George Bignotti as crew chief and did nothing the rest of 1965.
Same car with a Supercharged Drake has a second and a win with George Bignotti wrenching and Bignotti won his 3rd 500 with Hill and Ward was part of the team.
Those are the FACTS. Johnny Rutherford won with that "crap wagon" at Atlanta in 1965, the exact same car Rodger struggled with at Indy.
Rodger talked about the fact his heart really wasn't in it after missing the 500 and he was also a bit fearful of getting hurt. He tore up the Needle Nose car and his car from 1964 trying to get in. The sport was changing and he could not get things adapted.


His '66 car was not and the results show it. Had the moron mechanics installed the steering box correctly the '66 Indy could have easily been won by him. The fact he drove the car as long as he did without crashihg speaks volumes.

Mixing up stories aren't we. Parnelli had Wheel Bearings in backwards as reported during the 1966 500 on the IMS radio Network. Bignotti said there was NOTHING wrong with the car and it went as it to Milwaukee and Al Unser drove it. I was there for that too.


I was wondering how history would have changed, you think he was washed up FINE, but do not give BS statistics to back it up.

What BS Statistics? I gave you his history. Maybe instead of dreaming you need to go to my 1968 Thread and read about Chuck Stevenson. Chuck was 1952 National Champion and qualified for his last 500 the year Rodger missed the show and he did it in a two year old Roadster. Stevenson was now an Indy Only driver but now 3 years later he needed to get his Huffaker/Finley up to 163 to be considered an viable effort. On the 12th of May he wrecks the car at a speed 5 MPH slower than it appeared necessary. Once they got it fixed, Chuck lost his nerve and retired from racing. Sam Sessions qualified the car almost cold at over 162 MPH.
See when Ward became a real factor in 1959, speeds were in the 147 range. When Rodger missed the race he needed a 153 and didn't get it even though he drove the same car the year before to 157. In 1966 he got a 159 and was a bit unconfortable in the car even though he had raced it 252 miles and practiced it almost 500 miles.
As speeds climbed some drivers walked away due to being scared and intimidated by the jumps in speed. It happens in sports and sometimes a guy walks away and decides to come back. Many times it doesn't work.
Did you know Rodger was rumored for a car at the 1969 500? Just never occurred.


As I said, in an interview some years back, even he thought, maybe, he might have quite to soon.
Bob

Again, he retired from Indy Cars but not racing but each year that passed it got tougher and tougher and the speeds higher and higher. I interview Rodger and my Greatest Driver Thread had his influence in it. Rodger as far as I am concerned was Top 10 of all the Greats as he got better with age. Rodger told be he started to drive with his brain over his foot once he landed at Wilkie-Watson. He figured that was worth tons of wins.

Here is one that nobody knows but there was two Super-Charged Offys, a home build and a Factory Built engine, Rodger Ward won the only races those engines ever won. One of those BS Statistics that nobody cares about.

[Bob Riebe]

QUOTE=!!WALDO!!;485137]Sir, where did I do that? I pointed out some, just some of his friends he lost while competing including Jimmy Bryan at Langhorne in his car because Rodger felt the place too dangerous.
------
So what, I have never said anything about his personal beliefs

Rodger won races with Roger Wolcott but also was too hard on equipment. It wasn't until 1959 when Rodger got top equipment and won the 500 and National Driving Title in 1959 and 1962. Foyt won the National Driving Title 4 times from 1960-1964 with Ward finishing 3rd twice and 2nd Twice. The years Ward won, Foyt finished 5th and 2nd.
-------
Again, so what pointless to the thread

Facts? He won no races in 1964. Was out of the car in 4 races in 1965, teamed up in the ex-Agajanian Lola-Ford for John Mecum with George Bignotti as crew chief and did nothing the rest of 1965.
Same car with a Supercharged Drake has a second and a win with George Bignotti wrenching and Bignotti won his 3rd 500 with Hill and Ward was part of the team.
Those are the FACTS. Johnny Rutherford won with that "crap wagon" at Atlanta in 1965, the exact same car Rodger struggled with at Indy.
Rodger talked about the fact his heart really wasn't in it after missing the 500 and he was also a bit fearful of getting hurt. He tore up the Needle Nose car and his car from 1964 trying to get in. The sport was changing and he could not get things adapted.
----------
1964He led at Trenton but ran out of fuel; He finished second at Milwaukee;He finished second on dirt at Indianapolis; He finished fourth at Trenton; He finished second at Phoenix;1965 He led at Phoenix till his engine froze; Trenton he qualified third but his clutch went out on lap fifteen, in the Watson.
Yes Rutherford won with the Watson at Atlanta, but how other many races did he even lead a lap in with it?

Mixing up stories aren't we. Parnelli had Wheel Bearings in backwards as reported during the 1966 500 on the IMS radio Network. Bignotti said there was NOTHING wrong with the car and it went as it to Milwaukee and Al Unser drove it. I was there for that too.
--------
No you do not like the truth so you ignore it.
Go read the biography book on Wards career, either the author lied or you only believe what you want to believe

What BS Statistics? I gave you his history. Maybe instead of dreaming you need to go to my 1968 Thread and read about Chuck Stevenson. Chuck was 1952 National Champion and qualified for his last 500 the year Rodger missed the show and he did it in a two year old Roadster. Stevenson was now an Indy Only driver but now 3 years later he needed to get his Huffaker/Finley up to 163 to be considered an viable effort. On the 12th of May he wrecks the car at a speed 5 MPH slower than it appeared necessary. Once they got it fixed, Chuck lost his nerve and retired from racing. Sam Sessions qualified the car almost cold at over 162 MPH.
See when Ward became a real factor in 1959, speeds were in the 147 range. When Rodger missed the race he needed a 153 and didn't get it even though he drove the same car the year before to 157. In 1966 he got a 159 and was a bit unconfortable in the car even though he had raced it 252 miles and practiced it almost 500 miles.
As speeds climbed some drivers walked away due to being scared and intimidated by the jumps in speed. It happens in sports and sometimes a guy walks away and decides to come back. Many times it doesn't work.
Did you know Rodger was rumored for a car at the 1969 500? Just never occurred.
----------
Again SO WHAT, pointless to this thread.
You are giving your opinions not related to this thread.
Your proof of Rodger being washed up is....
This about Rodger Ward and what he DID do and might have done, NOT about what some other drivers did.
Yes he was uncomfortable,the steering box was in wrong, or historians are lying. Go read the account of what that screw-up caused the car to do EVERY LAP, before you insult other people and make fool out of your self.

There is a thread over at AtlasF1 nostalgia site where hundreds of threads exist because some people want to rewrite existing Indy history. Do not do it here, this is a what-if thread, go do it somewhere else.
Here you can make a could been future but leave changing reality alone.

Again, he retired from Indy Cars but not racing but each year that passed it got tougher and tougher and the speeds higher and higher. I interview Rodger and my Greatest Driver Thread had his influence in it. Rodger as far as I am concerned was Top 10 of all the Greats as he got better with age. Rodger told be he started to drive with his brain over his foot once he landed at Wilkie-Watson. He figured that was worth tons of wins.

Here is one that nobody knows but there was two Super-Charged Offys, a home build and a Factory Built engine, Rodger Ward won the only races those engines ever won. One of those BS Statistics that nobody cares about.
------------
Which one of those races do matter because of what you said in the post where you dismissed his win as not counting because of the way he won it.
This one ?: Waldo wrote--"I saw the second place run at PIR in 1966 and it was because of attrition, his Trenton win came because Mario was laps ahead and had a flat tire and pitted, attrition put Rodger in the lead and it rained at lap 102."
That existed on to show that Ward was washed up, so you want to have your cake and eat it too, doe not work.
[/quote]
..

[Phoenixent]

Mixing up stories aren't we. Parnelli had Wheel Bearings in backwards as reported during the 1966 500 on the IMS radio Network.

How do you install wheel bearings in backwards?

[!!WALDO!!]

When you really had a crew by committee you make mistakes. They weren't packed either.

I was 12, I heard Parnelli complain about it over the radio.

[!!WALDO!!]

So what, I have never said anything about his personal beliefs

I guess his words mean nothing to you.


Again, so what pointless to the thread

As pointless as this thread?


1964He led at Trenton but ran out of fuel; He finished second at Milwaukee;He finished second on dirt at Indianapolis; He finished fourth at Trenton; He finished second at Phoenix;1965 He led at Phoenix till his engine froze; Trenton he qualified third but his clutch went out on lap fifteen, in the Watson.
Yes Rutherford won with the Watson at Atlanta, but how other many races did he even lead a lap in with it?

Yes and in 1964 A.J. won 10 out 13 races. Foyt drove a Roadster and Rodger had a RE Ford.
In 1965 like Foyt he dropped out of both PIR and Trenton, both led the race.

So how many races did the National Champion Mario Andretti lead in 1965?


No you do not like the truth so you ignore it.
Go read the biography book on Wards career, either the author lied or you only believe what you want to believe

You're right. "It just isn't fun anymore"--Rodger Ward. "There was nothing wrong with the car when Rodger climbed out."--George Bignotti. "We didn't do anything to the car other than load it on the trailer."---George Bignotti at Milwaukee. "The first Lolas were very tough to stear and were very heavy to respond to imput."---Rodger Ward to me in 1985. "This car has hope but it is stearing a truck and about as heavy."---A.J. Foyt in a test of his Lola in 1965 (Sister to the Ward 1966 Car) "No way, this car will wear me out real quick."--Parnelli Jones after 5 laps in practice in 1965. (Car sold to Mecum and was the car that Ward climbed out of.)
"Yikes this thing is a truck but I am hopeful it gives me my best chance to win."---Bud Tingelstad in 1965. (Third Lola and was running 4th when it pitched a wheel in turn 3)
I spent the evening going through stuff from that era in my records. History written when it occurs is more true than something written 5, 10 or 15 years later. You seem to dismiss George Bignotti. Foyt won 30 times with George, Al Unser 25 times and Gordy won a ton of races with George, Tom Sneva and others. The winniest mechanic in Champ Car History. He was Rodger's chief at PIR, Trenton and Indy in 1966.


Again SO WHAT, pointless to this thread.
You are giving your opinions not related to this thread.
Your proof of Rodger being washed up is cow dung.
This about Rodger Ward and what he DID do and might have done, NOT about what some other drivers did.
Yes he was uncomfortable,the steering box was in wrong, or historians are lying. Go read the account of what that screw-up caused the car to do EVERY LAP, before you insult other people and make fool out of your self.

It was very much on point. Rodger hit the wall twice in 1965 and before that it was when his axle broke that started the Vukovich fatal. He almost quit then in 1955. It was the Vukovich family that told him to forget about it and continue to drive.
Many drivers in that era saw the light when things happen to them that never occurred before. Bob Christie in 1967 was a good example. One crash in the spare Foyt Coyote and he called it a career.
According to what Rodger told me, of course worth nothing to you, he was already tired from the clean up of the crash, he used so much up to make through the crash unscathed. He said he almost didn't want to get back into the car but Firestone and Bryant money got him back out. He realized when the race was an hour old and short of the quarter mark that heat and fatigue were catching up to him. He made it to his pit stop. Now he drove the car 185 miles. More miles than the 150 he did at PIR and weeks later 102 miles at Trenton. According to him, he was thinking outside the car and not in it to what was going on the track.
So you think that is a guy not finished? Either get out or it could get ugly.


There is a thread over at AtlasF1 nostalgia site where hundreds of threads exist because some people want to rewrite existing Indy history. Do not do it here, this is a what-if thread, go do it somewhere else.
Here you can make a could been future but leave changing reality alone.

Again sir he continued to drive. He drove in NASCAR WEST and drove that race north of Vegas for years. You appear to want to rewrite the history as I was there, saw Rodger drive, liked Rodger very much, have 15 pieces of news written at the time and interviewed him for 2.5 hours.

You're right, it is a history rewrite but as it actually occurred.


Which one of those races do matter because of what you said in the post where you dismissed his win as not counting because of the way he won it.

To win you must finish and have some luck. A win is a win but the Ward I saw was very aggressive and could have pushed the survivor at PIR, Jimmy McElreath but he didn't. He told me in the interview that physically he was not in shape when the 1966 season opened and the Lola was a tough car to get a hold of at a track like PIR. Between races he laid off the bad food and alcohol and was better at Trenton.
Rodger was very straight forward with his life as a driver and as a human being. I asked him, "Why then at Indy in 1966?" "Indy was good to me, and I lost my edge and that caused me to look at my own mortality. I never lost my desire but I can always find another way to use up my desire."


This one ?: Waldo wrote--"I saw the second place run at PIR in 1966 and it was because of attrition, his Trenton win came because Mario was laps ahead and had a flat tire and pitted, attrition put Rodger in the lead and it rained at lap 102."
That existed on to show that Ward was washed up, so you want to have your cake and eat it too, doe not work.

I need to borrow that decoder ring others talk about. Attrition causes things to occur that do not have the results many thing should have happened.

Wins are wins, if they are so invigorating then why did Sam Hanks call it a career in Victory Lane at Indy?

Reality of mortality. Reality is lacking in this thread and I am done with it.

[indycool]

I, for one, am enjoying this thread from the fascinating knowledge that is being imparted by many here about an era of my youth that clearly shaped my fandom in my teens. Today, Rodger Ward Jr. is a friend of mine here in Indy and I'm going to take my own advice and give him a call, and also have put in a call to Bob Christie.....at the age of about 10, I caddied in a celebrity golf tournament in which Christie was in our foursome....for me, that was like a ghetto kid meeting Kobe Bryant.

I DO know this about Ward. He pretty much bounced around from opportunity to opportunity after he retired as a driver and some things worked and some didn't. He was actually the promoter of the high-banked half-mile at Owosso, Mich., for a few years, the track on which Page Reynolds broke the accepted half-mile closed-course speed record in a supermodified previously set by Sonny Ates in a sprinter at Dayton.

[Phoenixent]

When you really had a crew by committee you make mistakes. They weren't packed either.

I was 12, I heard Parnelli complain about it over the radio.

I know how it could have happened as the bearing races dictate how the bearings are mounted. If they weren't packed they would fail that I can see. But mounted backward I can't since the bearing seat is machined for the bearing races and the bearing fit the races.

Maybe the reporter got his facts wrong?

Maybe Parnelli was sticking it to someone?

[Scheckterfan54]

Maybe they should shut this post down also, It has been ruined.

[Bob Riebe]

As pointless as this thread?[/u] If you do not like the thread stay out of it.

Yes and in 1964 A.J. won 10 out 13 races. Foyt drove a Roadster and Rodger had a RE Ford.
In 1965 like Foyt he dropped out of both PIR and Trenton, both led the race.
So how many races did the National Champion Mario Andretti lead in 1965? Who cares, unless one has poor reading comprhesion and does not understand the thread title.

're right. "It just isn't fun anymore"--Rodger Ward. "There was nothing wrong with the car when Rodger climbed out."--George Bignotti. "We didn't do anything to the car other than load it on the trailer."---George Bignotti at Milwaukee. "The first Lolas were very tough to stear and were very heavy to respond to imput."---Rodger Ward to me in 1985. "This car has hope but it is stearing a truck and about as heavy."---A.J. Foyt in a test of his Lola in 1965 (Sister to the Ward 1966 Car) "No way, this car will wear me out real quick."--Parnelli Jones after 5 laps in practice in 1965. (Car sold to Mecum and was the car that Ward climbed out of.)
"Yikes this thing is a truck but I am hopeful it gives me my best chance to win."---Bud Tingelstad in 1965. (Third Lola and was running 4th when it pitched a wheel in turn 3)
I spent the evening going through stuff from that era in my records. History written when it occurs is more true than something written 5, 10 or 15 years later. You seem to dismiss George Bignotti. Foyt won 30 times with George, Al Unser 25 times and Gordy won a ton of races with George, Tom Sneva and others. The winniest mechanic in Champ Car History. He was Rodger's chief at PIR, Trenton and Indy in 1966.
Then Bignotti lied, or was ignorant of what his mechanics did.
The other Lolas don't mean squat to the thread or your faulty logic.

WHen your own ... contradicts what you said previously, you go on with unrelated chatter, and then asinine childish remarks.
If you do not like the thread leave, do your own thing.

"Chuck came back in 1966 with the unlucky and out-of-date non-supercharged Offenhauser. It was the only car Roger Ward ever failed to qualify for the race (last year in '65) and the same car that Rutherford spun into the pits with at Trenton, injuring two people." Indy Speedway

The car that you seem to think that Ward should have done so well with, and also the car that killed Chuck Rodee.

"It turned out there was a high-spot in the Lola's steering rack. When Rodger set-up for the corner there was an increasing steering resistance in the steering wheel as he tried to turn it to the left. When the car reached the apex of the turn it would go past the high-spot and with the pressure Rodger was exerting would quickly go farther than it should." Mike O'Leary---Rodger Ward
Which if you read the book, happened because the box was installed improperly, and is why he nearly crashed every lap till he parked it.

Now you can change history to what ever you want but do it in your own thread, and not this one.
Bob

[indycool]

C'mon guys. Different guys retire for different reasons and in different ways. A.J. Foyt quit in the middle of a month of May after Robby Gordon crashed his team car. In the late '60s, Sonny Ates did the same thing at Indy, saying he just didn't "have it" any more. Others retire, then come back, like Luyendyk. Others retire and should have stayed retired, but that's not something they knew or felt at the time.

Yes, speeds had something to do with it. Some could get the hang of rear engine stuff and some couldn't -- both in varying degrees -- and that was a BIG change for American drivers back then. I can remember Jimmy Bryan qualifying at 144-plus one year at Indy and going on the PA system and saying, "when 144 won't make the field, I don't want to be here." And that was near the start of the rear engine revolution.

I think this thread started about the length of Rodger Ward's career. Rodger made it through his career in one piece. Many in his era, who showed great promise, didn't, like Bobby Marshman.

Just IMO, but I think most retired for more than one reason if they looked back, but there were also those who retired because of one single happening. Impossible to document history farther than it went -- for them or any of us.