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View Full Version : Vettel & Sutil Over-rated or Wet Weather Specialists?



wedge
4th June 2008, 15:57
Thoughts?

They've made more of name for themselves for mastering tricky conditions. I get the impression they're the next Jean Alesis and Stefan Bellofs.

jens
4th June 2008, 18:48
I think they are among the best wet weather drivers.
The key question of this thread might be that how good are they in the dry then?

Hard to say that Sutil is overrated, he has got some criticism this season and to cement a good reputation he needs to show himself well against Fisi in the next weekends. The opinions about Vettel vary a lot, but only future will tell the truth, especially if he gets a drive alongside Webber at Red Bull.

Azumanga Davo
4th June 2008, 19:07
I wouldn't discount them at anytime. Both have the potential to be higher than they really should. Force India's car apeears to be a bit hit and miss, but can have a strong result or two thanks to the closer grids. Same for Vettel.

Roamy
4th June 2008, 19:14
you don't know just after this race because a lot of the setups were modified in case the track dried.

wait until a full wet race and then you will be able to see.

BDunnell
4th June 2008, 20:01
We simply don't know as yet. Whether we will while they're in their current teams remains to be seen.

Garry Walker
4th June 2008, 20:28
Sutil the new Senna (outqualified by team mate 5 times in row + struggled at time with Sakon Yamamoto)
Vettel the new Schumacher (struggles to beat a teammate in qualifying who admits he sucks in qualifying)
Neither is anything special.

Bezza
5th June 2008, 13:44
Rain is a great leveller and gives drivers in poorer cars the chance to show their skills. In my opinion, a rain specialist = a very good driver!!!

5th June 2008, 14:18
Thoughts?

They've made more of name for themselves for mastering tricky conditions. I get the impression they're the next Jean Alesis and Stefan Bellofs.

Maybe, although I remember a certain bloke by the name of Ayrton excelled in a less than competitive Toleman at a wet Monaco.

Don't remember anyone suggesting that he was the next Jacky Ickx.

SGWilko
5th June 2008, 15:00
Maybe, although I remember a certain bloke by the name of Ayrton excelled in a less than competitive Toleman at a wet Monaco.

Don't remember anyone suggesting that he was the next Jacky Ickx.

I also seem to remember a certain M Hakkinen crashing an awful lot in his first season (especially during the start of races) and look how he turned out.

wedge
5th June 2008, 15:41
Maybe, although I remember a certain bloke by the name of Ayrton excelled in a less than competitive Toleman at a wet Monaco.

Don't remember anyone suggesting that he was the next Jacky Ickx.

Except Senna was amazing and made a huge impact in all conditions in the Toleman wet or dry races.

5th June 2008, 17:55
Except Senna was amazing and made a huge impact in all conditions in the Toleman wet or dry races.

Not before Monaco though, which was the first time that the world saw Senna as a real superstar.

Before that, his only points finish was a 6th place at Kylami, in the second race of the season, and nobody thought too much about it since Derek warwick had become a regular points scorer in the same car at the end of '83.

Storm
6th June 2008, 07:57
Surely racing in the wet is a must for a very good driver to be considered truly great..but there are some really great drivers in the dry and not so much in the wet (Ralf, Fernando to an extent)....some are excellent in the wet but also very good in the dry.(Rubens, Fisichella, Kimi apart from this Monaco :p : )
So what these Vettel and Sutil have to show is beat their teammates and show a consistently good performance in the dry, on current stats they certainly look good in the wet but can't be anything more than good drivers unless they can match/beat their teammates in the dry.

Garry Walker
6th June 2008, 09:31
Rain is a great leveller and gives drivers in poorer cars the chance to show their skills. In my opinion, a rain specialist = a very good driver!!!

No, a rain specialist= Rain specialist.

Sutil has so far shown nothing in dry to see him as special (what do you call getting beaten by a clear margin by Fisi in the first 5 dry races?), nor has Vettel. But they are good in Wet, Vettel for one has shown that in lower classes.

The old myth about drivers who are good when its raining being the most talented it just that, a myth.


Not before Monaco though, which was the first time that the world saw Senna as a real superstar.

Before that, his only points finish was a 6th place at Kylami, in the second race of the season, and nobody thought too much about it since Derek warwick had become a regular points scorer in the same car at the end of '83.

Except Vettel and Sutil are more experienced now than Senna was at the time of Monaco gp and neither of them has shown anything in the dry, except for the ability to consistantly be involved in crashes.

sutil and Vettel will never be superstars like Senna, it is because they are nowhere near good enough.

Garry Walker
6th June 2008, 09:34
Surely racing in the wet is a must for a very good driver to be considered truly great..but there are some really great drivers in the dry and not so much in the wet (Ralf, Fernando to an extent).

Alonso? :rotflmao:
He is excellent in wet, he has shown that many times.

Storm
6th June 2008, 10:57
I am not sure he is as good as Senna, Schumacher or even some one like Barrichello in the wet. He is awesome in the dry but doesn't exactly seem to like the wet conditions....just my opinion

What are the many times he has shown to be great in the wet?
and I like Alonso btw :)

Garry Walker
6th June 2008, 11:08
I am not sure he is as good as Senna, Schumacher or even some one like Barrichello in the wet. He is awesome in the dry but doesn't exactly seem to like the wet conditions....just my opinion

What are the many times he has shown to be great in the wet?
and I like Alonso btw :)

Hungary 2006, China 2006, nürburgring 2007 just to mention the last few examples.

ioan
6th June 2008, 11:16
Hungary 2006, China 2006, nürburgring 2007 just to mention the last few examples.

Fuji 2007! No wait, he binned it big way there! :p :
Or maybe Shanghai 2006! Nah, he was slower than a snail and even slower than Fisi! :D

Garry Walker
6th June 2008, 11:28
Fuji 2007! No wait, he binned it big way there! :p :
Or maybe Shanghai 2006! Nah, he was slower than a snail and even slower than Fisi! :D

Schumacher put it in the wall at Monaco 96 and spun out of Donington 93, Senna spun at Barcelona 91, 92. Way to go. Give me one driver who hasn`t spun out in wet.

At China he was only slower after the first pitstop because Renault decided to change his tyres, which was a mistake. When both had normally working tyres, Fisi was nowhere compared to Alonso.

ioan
6th June 2008, 11:33
Schumacher put it in the wall at Monaco 96 and spun out of Donington 93, Senna spun at Barcelona 91, 92. Way to go. Give me one driver who hasn`t spun out in wet.

At China he was only slower after the first pitstop because Renault decided to change his tyres, which was a mistake. When both had normally working tyres, Fisi was nowhere compared to Alonso.

Why are you getting upset? I only gave a few examples to prove that he wasn't the king of the harbor as you were depicting him.

Garry Walker
6th June 2008, 11:49
Why are you getting upset? I only gave a few examples to prove that he wasn't the king of the harbor as you were depicting him.


1) Where did I get upset?
2) I said he is excellent in wet, nowhere did I say he was the "king."
Unless you can produce evidence where I said that of course, but I doubt that, right?

Do you disagree that he is very good in wet?


This must be the first time ever when someone has accused me of being an Alonso fanboy :D

wedge
6th June 2008, 15:19
No, a rain specialist= Rain specialist.

The old myth about drivers who are good when its raining being the most talented it just that, a myth.

Could you elaborate further?

I found that hypothesis puzzling me over the years and not sure to what extent whether there is such a thing as 'rain specialists'.

Roamy
6th June 2008, 17:00
Jean Alesis had one good race in 10 years.
Prost hated the rain and was awful in it.
I think MS ran a soft car in the dry and therefore was very fast
in the rain. While JV was a stone in the rain because his car was always
super stiff and they probably couldn't get it soften up enough for the rain.
That is why you need a complete rain race to see. Bring F1 to Seattle if you
want to see wet races.

jens
6th June 2008, 20:53
Surely racing in the wet is a must for a very good driver to be considered truly great..but there are some really great drivers in the dry and not so much in the wet (Ralf, Fernando to an extent)


Ralf was more impressive in the wet than in the dry.

I agree with Garry Walker that being a great wet weather driver does not automatically mean that he is the best driver. And on the contrary who doesn't excel in the wet, is nothing special. In that case Prost would be an average driver and Verstappen an all-time legend. Whenever it rained, Jos The Boss was one of the fastest guys out there, but I doubt anyone thinks he was overall one of the best drivers.

Every driver has his strengths and weaknesses. Being strong or poor in one area doesn't mean that driver's skills can be rated the same in every area.

wedge
6th June 2008, 23:18
Jean Alesis had one good race in 10 years.
Prost hated the rain and was awful in it.
I think MS ran a soft car in the dry and therefore was very fast
in the rain. While JV was a stone in the rain because his car was always
super stiff and they probably couldn't get it soften up enough for the rain.
That is why you need a complete rain race to see. Bring F1 to Seattle if you
want to see wet races.

Jean Alesi was undoubtedly a rain-meister in the 1990s.

Battled with Mansell in Suzuka in 1994 for lap after lap which technically wasn't even for position! (because they used to run aggregate times whenever a race was red flagged)

He was second only to Shumi in Spain 1996 (with compromised settings, IIRC).

Was looking to get his first win in 1995 European GP but was overtaken by Schumi on the penultimate lap.


Every driver has his strengths and weaknesses. Being strong or poor in one area doesn't mean that driver's skills can be rated the same in every area.

Perhaps post-Senna and Schumacher I'm/we're expecting too much now?

Alonso has proven the case and to some extent Hamilton as well that they have shone in wet and dry and therefore top-rated drivers.

ShiftingGears
7th June 2008, 02:37
A certain amount of it comes down to second guessing the weather, and hence having the right set-up for wet races.

And another part (at least for Sutil) is that tyre conservation was not a problem in the rain at Monaco. Having said that, Fisichella didn't have first and second gear, which would have to be the WORST scenario you could be in at a wet Monaco. So comparatively, we won't know how good Sutil was. Maybe it's because some drivers know where their limits are, better than others.

Lets look at past "rainmasters":

Nuvolari
Caracciola
Fangio
Moss
Clark
Ascari
Stewart
Ickx
Rodgrigez
Hunt
Villeneuve
Reutemann
Senna
Schumacher
Raikkonen
Alonso
Hamilton

More often than not, the drivers who have the feel to be fast in the wet are fast in the dry as well.

7th June 2008, 11:10
Prost hated the rain and was awful in it.

His first win was at a wet Dijon, he won again at the monsoon-like 84 Monaco (OK, the race was stopped early but he was the leader).

It was only later in his career that he decidedly didn't like the wet.

To say he was 'awful' in the wet is incorrect.

ioan
7th June 2008, 11:21
Lets look at past "rainmasters":

...
Hamilton


:laugh:
You're joking, right?!

Bezza
7th June 2008, 12:42
Hamilton's record in the wet:

Nurburgring 07 - spun off, finished 9th
Japan 07 - WON
China 07 - slid into gravel trap
Monaco 08 - WON, despite mistake hitting barrier.

So you can say Hamilton is 50% successful in the wet. A rainmaster though?! No way.

wedge
7th June 2008, 13:23
Last year Motorsport magazine had a look at wet weather drivers.

Don't suppose anyone here has it and does it have anything on the 'good in the dry but great in the wet' conundrum?

Also in the same issue I remember Pat Symonds was asked about wet weather set ups and that they don't run them anymore now because of the amount of downforce generated with today's cars, the plank will cause the car to aquaplane as well as the tyres. They adjust the wings and ride height accordingly.

ShiftingGears
7th June 2008, 15:48
:laugh:
You're joking, right?!

No.

ioan
7th June 2008, 16:31
No.

Than you can add me to your list, I manage dto keep it on the road every time, no matter the weather! :D

gloomyDAY
7th June 2008, 16:42
No.You do know that a wheel popped off Hamilton's car at Monaco, right?

That doesn't exactly scream rain master.

wedge
7th June 2008, 23:35
You do know that a wheel popped off Hamilton's car at Monaco, right?

That doesn't exactly scream rain master.

Schumi slipped on over a wet kerb in Poirtier and was out in 1996 Monaco GP(???).

Aqua-planed off at the 'river' in Brazil 2003

Every dog has its day.

markabilly
7th June 2008, 23:50
What rain does do, is take away some of the car advantage of front runners, and someone with more ability, can shine better on a wet road by showing car control skills. Good way to get noticed.

And make no mistake: to Drive well in the rain, does require great skills and nerves, so as to how much may translate into the dry can always be argued, but, me, I think great rain drivers do show excllent promise that might not otherwise show, when they ase driving a backmarker

ShiftingGears
8th June 2008, 02:41
Than you can add me to your list, I manage dto keep it on the road every time, no matter the weather! :D

Yeah, but you'd be **** slow :p :

jens
8th June 2008, 12:54
At least Lewis has won 50% of the wet races in his F1 career. Rate him or not, but that's a pretty darn good percentage.

ioan
8th June 2008, 13:45
At least Lewis has won 50% of the wet races in his F1 career. Rate him or not, but that's a pretty darn good percentage.

And he finished the others in the kitty litter!
Not to mention that Fuji 2007 was only 1/2 a race! :D

ShiftingGears
8th June 2008, 14:01
And he finished the others in the kitty litter!
Not to mention that Fuji 2007 was only 1/2 a race! :D

Michael Schumacher spun off or crashed in three out of his first four wet races. But as we all know, he was a terrible rain driver, so its a bad comparison.

Valve Bounce
8th June 2008, 14:17
A certain amount of it comes down to second guessing the weather, and hence having the right set-up for wet races.

And another part (at least for Sutil) is that tyre conservation was not a problem in the rain at Monaco. Having said that, Fisichella didn't have first and second gear, which would have to be the WORST scenario you could be in at a wet Monaco. So comparatively, we won't know how good Sutil was. Maybe it's because some drivers know where their limits are, better than others.

Lets look at past "rainmasters":

Nuvolari
Caracciola
Fangio
Moss
Clark
Ascari
Stewart
Ickx
Rodgrigez
Hunt
Villeneuve
Reutemann
Senna
Schumacher
Raikkonen
Alonso
Hamilton

More often than not, the drivers who have the feel to be fast in the wet are fast in the dry as well.

I don't suppose you have any space for Bernd Rosemeyer, have you?

ShiftingGears
8th June 2008, 14:33
I don't suppose you have any space for Bernd Rosemeyer, have you?

Probably, although I don't know if any of his major grand prix victories were in the rain. I know he won the Nurburgring race with impossibly thick fog.

Valve Bounce
8th June 2008, 14:37
Probably, although I don't know if any of his major grand prix victories were in the rain. I know he won the Nurburgring race with impossibly thick fog.

Yeah!! it's on my tape. ;)

ShiftingGears
8th June 2008, 14:43
Yeah!! it's on my tape. ;)

You must find a way to upload! :D

Valve Bounce
8th June 2008, 14:52
You must find a way to upload! :D

I wish I knew how to transfer the tape onto my disc recorder which I can't figure out how to use yet. :(

It also has a section on the audi quattro rally car.

gloomyDAY
8th June 2008, 18:17
I wish I knew how to transfer the tape onto my disc recorder which I can't figure out how to use yet. :(

It also has a section on the audi quattro rally car.
Hey! When you figure it out send me a PM, yeah? :)

aryan
8th June 2008, 21:38
I wish I knew how to transfer the tape onto my disc recorder which I can't figure out how to use yet. :(

It also has a section on the audi quattro rally car.

Is it a VHS? Maybe I can help you with that.

We should really try to digitise these magnificant videos, they're not gonna last forever on analogue films.

jens
8th June 2008, 23:08
A fine race by Vettel and he showed some nice blocking against Kovalainen & Co at the end of the race. :) While he is an excellent wet weather driver, then it looks like he really doesn't lack of potential in dry either if he has troublefree races.

Sutil looked like capable of beating Fisichella this weekend, so I think both Germans are on their way to prove themselves in a positive light.

Ranger
9th June 2008, 02:49
A fine race by Vettel and he showed some nice blocking against Kovalainen & Co at the end of the race. :) While he is an excellent wet weather driver, then it looks like he really doesn't lack of potential in dry either if he has troublefree races.

Vettel wasn't bad.

Straight-lining the final chicane more than once while battling those guys and gaining a competitive advantage by doing so was pretty suss.