Kawasaki's GP doldrums...

[ZX7Robert]

I pulled the article below off of another website, 600rr.net. I'm not sure how to handle such things as far as crediting or whatnot, as the source (short of the authors) wasn't specified.

My question is though...Kawasaki obviously has the will and the enthusiasm. They want to try new things. Apparently they (still) have unwavering corporate backing, which is a little surprising at this point. I think most people would like to see them do well. Yes, they're still very green (pun intended) when it comes to GP, but what are some of your opinions on what it will take for this team to actually start winning races?

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Kawasaki evaluates in-line five engine

By Michele Lostia and Simon Strang Thursday, May 15th 2008, 13:23 GMT


Kawasaki are considering building a brand new in-line five cylinder 800cc engine in an attempt to make them world championship contenders in time for the 2011 world championship.

The Japanese bike-makers are the only active manufacturer not to have won an event at Moto GP level, and are looking at several potential engine lay-outs to replace their current in-line four cylinder motor.

Kawasaki technical director, Ichiro Yoda, told Italian magazine Motosprint:


"We are thinking of something different for the future: we are evaluating an in-line five cylinders. It's possible. Our engineering staff is evaluating the project.


"I don't understand why Honda went back to four cylinders with the 800cc. Honda dominated with the V5 because you can use smaller cylinders, you get less friction, and you can have more power.
"And in my opinion there are advantages also with regards to fuel consumption."


Yoda also suggested that the lack of success has not discouraged Kawasaki, whose best result in 2008 was a fifth place in Portugal with new signing John Hopkins.


"For sure we must win, we have the right budget and the company believes in this MotoGP project," he said.


"We are getting there. Our bike, in China, was finally at the level it should be in practice. It was with the best.


"We still have to do a lot of work to do for the races. In Portugal we tried several new parts that work. We changed several things on the chassis, already during the winter, and many in the engine thanks to Hopkins's indications. Now the frame set-up seems greatly improved and we carry on the development of the current traditional engine."


Yoda also hinted that the introduction of Kawasaki's high-revving 'screamer' engine may now not happen until next year.


"It's being developed in Japan with [Olivier] Jacque," he said. "We use Kawasaki's private track of Autopolis. Jacque works on both developments on the current engine and on the development of the screamer.


"We must not rush things, it will be fine if it races in 2009. It's one of the possibilities we have for the immediate future, without the need to change too much the philosophy of our engine. The screamer has some qualities this engine doesn't have."

[MrJan]

Different riders if they want to do it now. Hopper and Westy are both very good but at the moment I don't think that either of them is capable of winning races. However both undoubtedly have a talent that could see them regularly on the podium given a sharper bike.

Perhaps they might actually benefit from the traction control rule being recinded, less technical stuff to spend money on means more money on general bike development. Ultimately though I just think they need things to click a la Ducati/Stoner last year or Rossi's first year at Yamaha when a pig of a bike became fantastic. Sometimes it's just about the right people being in place at the right time to make things work.

[maxu05]

I think Kawasaki should be trying to sign Melandri, if Westy is to go. His style does not suit the Ducati, but I feel he would feel better on the Kwaka.

[NinjaMaster]

I think the Kwak is a better bike than the results has so far shown but it's still only a regular top 5 getter in Hopkins hands, not a race winner. There's still plenty of work to be done and errors like last weekend for Hopkins and the race before for Westy certainly don't help. Either did Hopkins being injured during the test season which set them back as well and then he wasn't fit leading into the race season. West just hasn't/can't gel with the bike, a bit like Melandri on the Ducati, though there is clearly more speed in both their bikes as evidenced by strong finishes by their teammates.
As John and Jan have both said, I agree that team green are short that superstar talent to really lead them to the top as well. On the back of Yamaha's dominance this year, Colin Edwards should be high on the signing list for his development skills and then the likes of Bautista, Dovizioso, Kallio and Melandri should be chased hard to give the team real top flight talent to fight for victories.
Overall, I think Kawasaki are heading in the right direction but they clearly have a long way to go to get where they (and I!) want to be, especially as the target is constantly moving with further improvements from their opposition.

[Roby44]

But couldn't Shinya Nakano ride that bike well?? :confused:

[MrJan]

But couldn't Shinya Nakano ride that bike well?? :confused:

He was born on a Kwaka wasn't he?

As I said before it's not that the bike is terrible just that it isn't a polished product just yet. We all know how sometimes teams have good and bad years but I just hope that we don't see the same situation with Kawasaki that we have with Honda in F1, a few promising seasons but ultimately doomed to be mid to back of the field.

[T-D]

why anyone would believe that kawasaki could win a motogp race when they never have is beyond me. the bike has taken a step backward and that's disappointing because westy and hopper could do much more with a decent bike.

i don't know why anyone rates colin edwards as a bike developer. a tire developer, maybe, but rossi and burgess developed the current yamaha and every one before that. michelin upped their game and yamaha gave tech 3 equal equipment: voila--colin edwards is suddenly running up front.

if hte kwak is better than its results have shown so far then only superman--rossi--could deliver consistent results on it. only he and stoner of the current grid have ever done anything with less than great equipment.

[MrJan]

why anyone would believe that kawasaki could win a motogp race when they never have is beyond me. the bike has taken a step backward and that's disappointing because westy and hopper could do much more with a decent bike.

i don't know why anyone rates colin edwards as a bike developer. a tire developer, maybe, but rossi and burgess developed the current yamaha and every one before that. michelin upped their game and yamaha gave tech 3 equal equipment: voila--colin edwards is suddenly running up front.

if hte kwak is better than its results have shown so far then only superman--rossi--could deliver consistent results on it. only he and stoner of the current grid have ever done anything with less than great equipment.

Faith.

Would say that Pedrosa is doing fairly well on below-par machinery because that Honda isn't fantastic and wasn't last year. Likewise Hopper was punching abvoe the Suzooks weight before he moved.

[fatman]

Faith.

Would say that Pedrosa is doing fairly well on below-par machinery because that Honda isn't fantastic and wasn't last year. Likewise Hopper was punching abvoe the Suzooks weight before he moved.

I don't believe for a second that Pedorsa is on below-par machinery. The Honda (and specifically HIS honda) is the second best bike on the grid. He's typically the first Honda because he seems to be the first priority with HRC and is riding a bike developed specifically for him.

[MrJan]

It's the second best on the grid just because everyone else is so poor but he has been up with the Yamahas who seem a long way ahead. The reason I think that he is punching above his weight is because the other riders are doing so poorly and I just don't think that bike should be on the podium as often as it is.

Let's not forget that his team mate is a former world champion who has been getting worse results than rookies.

I'm not saying that Pedrosa is doing amazing things on a crock but I just think that he is doing better than most would and it's not just this season either, he was riding the dog that they had last year fairly well too.

[fatman]

@Mr Jan Yeo - All your points are very valid. I do think Pedrosa is getting every ounce of performance he can out of that Honda and doing better than his team mate. I still don't believe the machine is sub-par. I think the reason Nicky is having an aweful season on the bike is because he's much bigger than Pedrosa, has a very different riding style and is getting NO co-operation from HRC.

There is an interesting article on soup (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jun/080601rn.htm) which they talk about the situation with Nicky and Dani. Here is a quote.


Nicky Hayden wanted to use the new motor, but Honda wanted to race test it first. This is so far from the normal HRC way of doing things—the only other example anyone can bring to mind is Shinichi Itoh and the alleged fuel- injected 500 back in 1995. He was reckoned to have ridden that for the whole year not just one race, but it was a third factory Honda rider acting as a tester at the races. However, it is difficult to understand why Nicky wasn't allowed to race it. He isn't within a shout of the championship and is clearly demoralised. For once, HRC could give him something he wants.


On the other side of the garage, Dani Pedrosa clearly doesn't want to change things. A meeting is taking place right now at which the team manager will decide who rides what next weekend, although it is possible that each rider will start the Catalunya weekend with one conventional and one pneumatic engine. It is difficult to understand why Honda won't just give Nicky the new motor and hope it gives him the extra power he so obviously needs and switch off as many electronic controls as possible while they're at it. Today it looked like tyres were the problem, although they aren't mentioned in the official press release. There is also the unspoken assumption that if Pedrosa had wanted the new engine, he would have got it.

[MrJan]

@Mr Jan Yeo - All your points are very valid. I do think Pedrosa is getting every ounce of performance he can out of that Honda and doing better than his team mate. I still don't believe the machine is sub-par. I think the reason Nicky is having an aweful season on the bike is because he's much bigger than Pedrosa, has a very different riding style and is getting NO co-operation from HRC.

There is an interesting article on soup (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2008/Jun/080601rn.htm) which they talk about the situation with Nicky and Dani. Here is a quote.

I think it's difficult to say what Par is this season. I think that all teams are struggling for consitency. I just expected Honda to be doing better which is why I see Pedrosa as doing better :D

I knew that it'd be a controversial point to be honest :D

[NinjaMaster]

why anyone would believe that kawasaki could win a motogp race when they never have is beyond me. the bike has taken a step backward and that's disappointing because westy and hopper could do much more with a decent bike.

The guy who heads the project (Ichiro Yoda) is the same guy who turned the Yamaha into a race winner. That's where the optimism comes from.


i don't know why anyone rates colin edwards as a bike developer. a tire developer, maybe, but rossi and burgess developed the current yamaha and every one before that. michelin upped their game and yamaha gave tech 3 equal equipment: voila--colin edwards is suddenly running up front.

Beacuse he took on the majority of the testing duties this year and for the first time since going 4 stroke, the Yamaha is competitive with all riders and not just Rossi. Also, Col is the most competitive he's been because he get's attention in his pitbox, not just his teammate.


if hte kwak is better than its results have shown so far then only superman--rossi--could deliver consistent results on it. only he and stoner of the current grid have ever done anything with less than great equipment.

I'll assume this comment is in response to my post and I'll clarify it for you. Their testing program was hindered by both West and Hopkins being injured which Hopkins then carried into the start of the season. When Hopkins got fit, he started showing top 5 position form. However, poor tire choice (China), a broken chain (LeMans) and a gear selector problem (Mugello) have delivered disastrous results for John and team green recently. China was a gamble that didn't pay off in difficult conditions, the chain breaking is the supplier, not Kawasaki's fault (unless is was adjusted incorrectly) and it cost them a top 5 position and only in Mugello Kwak were completely to blame.
West just can't get to grips with the bike for whatever reason but given how Hopkins is outpacing him without the same problems, it is obviously has something to do with Wests riding style and the relationship that has with the bike.
So the results have been disappointing but all is not as straight forward as it seems.

[AndyRAC]

Just how much money are Kawasaki putting in to their effort? Along with Suzuki, they both only run 2 bikes, with no satellite teams.

[CaptainRaiden]

If Rossi wins this year on the Yamaha, and is looking for a new challenge, nothing better than the struggling Kawasaki outfit. That would be exciting and adventerous for Rossi and would spark a HUGE level of interest in next year's championship. Rossi's yellow with the green machine would look awesome IMHO.

I guess that's all Kawasaki needs, a mercurial rider and a brilliant mechanic. Then they need to put all their might and resources behind that. No offense to Hopkins and West, but they are no Rossi. (Or even Stoner for that matter).

Maybe Dovizioso could join them, but then he seems to be in love with Honda.

[Roby44]

If Rossi wins this year on the Yamaha, and is looking for a new challenge, nothing better than the struggling Kawasaki outfit. That would be exciting and adventerous for Rossi and would spark a HUGE level of interest in next year's championship. Rossi's yellow with the green machine would look awesome IMHO.

I guess that's all Kawasaki needs, a mercurial rider and a brilliant mechanic. Then they need to put all their might and resources behind that. No offense to Hopkins and West, but they are no Rossi. (Or even Stoner for that matter).

Maybe Dovizioso could join them, but then he seems to be in love with Honda.


The Green and Yellow would be very Australian wouldn't it!!

Dovi is very loyal to Honda isn't he, even after their failing him last year in the 250cc

[T-D]

ninja master, i don't know where you get the notion that edwards took on the majority of development in the yamaha this year. let's look at things objectively, if you were yamaha and had burgess and rossi, who had successfully lifted your team to a championship, would you give the second rider, who the team owner didn't even want (poncharral preferred guintoli) the responsibility to develop the bike?

that doesn't pencil. rossi developed this year's yamaha and every yamaha and honda before that (maybe not his first year) he has ever ridden.

the fact that tech 3 are getting results is because tech 3 have equal equipment for the first time ever. every previous tech 3 rider (especially porr james ellison) was given the year old bike and dunlops. put colin and jt on the '07 bike and dunlops and i guarantee they will be racing poor old westy for last place again this year.

also, bartholomew apologized to westy after lemans, so i am thinking that you should add that event to one that kwak screwed up.

realistically, kwak are NOT a contender for podiums. top five? they can get a top five when the stars align, but woop de doo. the yamahas are all superior, then you have the hondas, especially ridden by pedrosa and dovi. stoner on the ducati is faster. even zook look superior at the moment. had deangelis gotten a better start in mugello, he would have podiumed.

when have kwak ever looked capable of a podium? on a normal race weekend, who of the big four would you bet your hard earned cash on them finishing ahead of:

rossi?
stoner?
pedrosa?
lorenzo?

[MrJan]

ninja master, i don't know where you get the notion that edwards took on the majority of development in the yamaha this year. let's look at things objectively, if you were yamaha and had burgess and rossi, who had successfully lifted your team to a championship, would you give the second rider, who the team owner didn't even want (poncharral preferred guintoli) the responsibility to develop the bike?

Everyone knows that teams use lesser riders for data, look at all the third drivers in F1. Edwards is most likely to have spent more time on the bike doing longs stints and given the team feedback on how it feels and what needs changing drastically before Rossi and Burgess fine tune the finished bike to the way that Vale likes it.

Make no mistake Colin is a decent rider who has so often been unlucky, as in Assen the other year when Nicky and him came together (ooh er missus) and on other occassions when the bike has let him down.

[NinjaMaster]

ninja master, i don't know where you get the notion that edwards took on the majority of development in the yamaha this year.

From the man himself! 475516


let's look at things objectively, if you were yamaha and had burgess and rossi, who had successfully lifted your team to a championship, would you give the second rider, who the team owner didn't even want (poncharral preferred guintoli) the responsibility to develop the bike?

that doesn't pencil. rossi developed this year's yamaha and every yamaha and honda before that (maybe not his first year) he has ever ridden.

the fact that tech 3 are getting results is because tech 3 have equal equipment for the first time ever. every previous tech 3 rider (especially porr james ellison) was given the year old bike and dunlops. put colin and jt on the '07 bike and dunlops and i guarantee they will be racing poor old westy for last place again this year.

If I was Yamaha and the direction that Edwards preferred made everyone on the M1 go fast then I would take his lead, not the 'all-in-the-Rossi-basket' approach. For the first time since MotoGP started, the Yamaha is now a machine that can be ridden fast by all and more than just Rossi is capable of race wins on it. This is the reason I think (and it's only my opinion) that Edwards would be good for Kawasaki or maybe even Ducati who clearly have bikes that only suit specific riders. Yamaha have had this problem in the past and I believe Colin when he says he is the main one responsible for their turnaround.


also, bartholomew apologized to westy after lemans, so i am thinking that you should add that event to one that kwak screwed up.

Yes, that was also a screw up but ultimately it just meant that West was in last place by further than he would otherwise have been. It is still something they need to make sure doesn't happen again however.


realistically, kwak are NOT a contender for podiums. top five? they can get a top five when the stars align, but woop de doo. the yamahas are all superior, then you have the hondas, especially ridden by pedrosa and dovi. stoner on the ducati is faster. even zook look superior at the moment. had deangelis gotten a better start in mugello, he would have podiumed.

when have kwak ever looked capable of a podium? on a normal race weekend, who of the big four would you bet your hard earned cash on them finishing ahead of:

rossi?
stoner?
pedrosa?
lorenzo?

Show me where anyone has said the Kawasaki was a podium bike. I've only said it is top 5 capable and Hopkins already has a top 5 result which would be 2 had it not been for the broken chain. They're not startling or even good enough results but what they have is capable of consistently running around that 5th place mark in the hands of Hopkins if a little bit of luck goes their way.

[T-D]

"They're not startling or even good enough results but what they have is capable of consistently running around that 5th place mark in the hands of Hopkins if a little bit of luck goes their way."

just so i understand: the bike is capable of consistently running top 5 IF they get a bit of luck.

that bit of luck usually means that the top riders have difficulties or someone falls, or makes a poor tire choice.

that's not very inspiring. :)

as for colin edwards. i have 5 years of watching him underperform on top equipment to know that i don't rate him very highly. anyone can get owned by vale, but compare how closely a rookie like lorenzo has been to rossi versus colin. compare colin to sete--no contest on the same bike.

every rider trots out the "equal equipment" excuse when they don't perform. however, i have seen stoner, dovi, hopkins, elias, guntoli, even roberts, jr.('06 kr), do amazing things given the right or even slightly less than perfect equipment. colin? not so much.

[ChrisS]

I guess that's all Kawasaki needs, a mercurial rider and a brilliant mechanic. Then they need to put all their might and resources behind that. No offense to Hopkins and West, but they are no Rossi. (Or even Stoner for that matter).

I think its just the opposide of that.

Kawasaki needs to improve the bike down to its core. Not even the best riders and race engineers can win races if the bike is not up to it. They should go back to the basics and sign 2 good but cheap development riders.


Adding to the Edwards debate

Edwards is considered a very good bike developer as well as a tyre developer. He did lots of work for Yamaha these past few years. He also developed the RC51 into a championship winning superbike.

[NinjaMaster]

just so i understand: the bike is capable of consistently running top 5 IF they get a bit of luck.

that bit of luck usually means that the top riders have difficulties or someone falls, or makes a poor tire choice.

that's not very inspiring. :)

My 'bit of luck' comment was probably more directed towards Hopkins with the bike in that if they can stop the mechanical failures (when was the last time someone broke a chain?) I thought he was capable of mixing it fairly consistently for top 5's behind only the 4 blokes you mentioned, Stoner, Rossi, Lorenzo and Pedrosa.

However, after this weekend I must admit that I think Kawasaki have dropped the ball in development. I still think that earlier in the year, even up to a couple of rounds ago it was a top 5 competitive bike but it looks like the competition is moving forward and Team Green have been left standing still. Perhaps development on the screamer needs to be fast tracked to see if it's even worthwhile pursuing because somewhere, somehow they need to come up with some solutions to make them competitive at the pointy end of the field.


as for colin edwards. i have 5 years of watching him underperform on top equipment to know that i don't rate him very highly. anyone can get owned by vale, but compare how closely a rookie like lorenzo has been to rossi versus colin. compare colin to sete--no contest on the same bike.

every rider trots out the "equal equipment" excuse when they don't perform. however, i have seen stoner, dovi, hopkins, elias, guntoli, even roberts, jr.('06 kr), do amazing things given the right or even slightly less than perfect equipment. colin? not so much.

You're getting development rider mixed up with racer. Edwards is a very good racer but an excellent development rider.
The reason Lorenzo is able to challenge Rossi much more than Edwards has been able to is simply because he is a better, more talented racer. I do have my doubts however, how competitive he would be without Edwards there to develop the M1 with Michelin tires. He would be up there but maybe not race win competitive yet. Also, Colin was never a priority at Yamaha, Rossi was the priority. When Rossi had troubles, the majority of the garage concentrated on him leaving Edwards less resourced. That is why his performance has improved this year now that he has a team dedicated to helping him as the focus.

The Edwards-Gibernau comparison is a waste of time. Sete had a factory bike after the demise of Kato, Edwards had a kit bike and was last in line for parts. It's like comparing Pedrosa and Stoner in 2006. Stoner got some good results but ultimately his bike was greatly inferior to Dani's.

[NinjaMaster]

I think its just the opposide of that.

Kawasaki needs to improve the bike down to its core. Not even the best riders and race engineers can win races if the bike is not up to it. They should go back to the basics and sign 2 good but cheap development riders.


I actually think Kawasaki, as well as needing a very good development rider to set the direction for the bike to go, need a real outstanding talent who can push the bike to it's absolute limit to see just how good it is. Otherwise they could just have 2 good, middle-of-the-road riders developing the bike to a level still below the competition but you'd never know because the riders aren't capable of running at the front anyway.

[T-D]

kwak have sent westy to japan to work on correcting the traction issues.

ninja, i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on colin.

[ChrisS]

I actually think Kawasaki, as well as needing a very good development rider to set the direction for the bike to go, need a real outstanding talent who can push the bike to it's absolute limit to see just how good it is. Otherwise they could just have 2 good, middle-of-the-road riders developing the bike to a level still below the competition but you'd never know because the riders aren't capable of running at the front anyway.

True but talent costs more and I dont think Kawasaki has the budget. A rider with Hopkins financial demands is probably as high as Kawasaki can go and I wouldnt rule out that Hopkins salary actually decreased the bike development budget.

[CaptainRaiden]

I think its just the opposide of that.

Kawasaki needs to improve the bike down to its core. Not even the best riders and race engineers can win races if the bike is not up to it. They should go back to the basics and sign 2 good but cheap development riders.

Well, agreed, but where do you find "good but cheap" development riders? They just do not exist. They are either good or cheap. :p And also, what may seem a good setup for a development test rider, may not translate into the same for the race rider. So, that's again just a wastage of time.

Well, I still think that they need a brilliant rider/mechanic/bike designer combination. If they don't wanna extend their budget, then they should be content with mid-field results for the while or maybe wait for magic to happen. Maybe they should hire Mary Poppins.

[NinjaMaster]

kwak have sent westy to japan to work on correcting the traction issues.

ninja, i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on colin.

I guess so. :D



True but talent costs more and I dont think Kawasaki has the budget. A rider with Hopkins financial demands is probably as high as Kawasaki can go and I wouldnt rule out that Hopkins salary actually decreased the bike development budget.

Kawasaki, when they entered MotoGP, announced that they would do and spend what it took to be competitive. Perhaps they have under-estimated what that would be? I think that they really need to run at least one, preferably two more bikes through a satellite team like Aspar or Pons and they need another star rider to back Hopkins up (or someone even better). I can't see them being race win competitive until their budget and presence is increased, let alone being title competitive. Which sucks, coz I so badly want to see them do well. :(