Ron Dennis Was Desperate to Sign Indycar/American Drivers!

[wedge]

I was watching the 1991 Indy 500 last night and the commentary mentioned Ron Dennis was in attendance because he tried to sign Al Unser Jr (who eventually re-signed with Galles) and Ron had his eye Michael Andretti.

Does make me wonder why Ron was so desperate to sign an Indycar driver around that time and why Ron never looked across the Atlantic again post-Andretti even though we know how demanding Ron can be?

Apparantly Frank Williams (who has an eye on young talent) was enquiring on Greg Moore when the 1996 season began. Norbet Haug was one of the first people to congratulate Greg Moore's win in Detroit and I think most people thought Moore would jump to F1 sooner, not later.

[gshevlin]

There was some interest in Al Unser Jr. from F1 teams. Williams tested him in the autumn of 1991, but he was not that quick, and Patrick Head was quoted at the time as saying that he would need to improve his fitness if he wanted to drive in F1.
Benetton also tested Paul Tracy in (I think) 1993 at Estoril. He was respectably quick, but rumours were that he declined any sort of driving contract because it would have required him to agree a multi-year deal to be managed by Flavio Briatore, and he was not prepared to do that. In fact, when he arrived at Estoril he was asked to sign a contract before even getting in the car, refused to do so and went off to his hotel until the issue was resolved.
The McLaren signing of Michael Andretti was self-financing, according to articles I read at the time, by virtue of the sponsorship money that came to the team from the USA. If you look at pictures of the 1993 car, you can clearly see significant signage from Dirt Devil, and other smaller logos from several other US sponsors. After Andretti was stood down from the team after being replaced by Mika Hakkinen, Andretti and Dennis even went on a US trip so that Dennis could explain to media and sponsors there why Andretti had been replaced. As I recall, the official explanation was something along the lines that Andretti had been replaced because Ron could not commit to him for 1994 and beyond, and he needed to be able to work out his 1994 plans without being distracted by driving duties. However, that did not really hold water, since Andretti had signed for Ganassi within days of being stood down by McLaren, and even attended a CART race shortly afterwards wearing Ganassi clothing. (Ganassi having agreed to run an entirely separate team for him in CART).

[Colin]

....However, that did not really hold water, since Andretti had signed for Ganassi within days of being stood down by McLaren, and even attended a CART race shortly afterwards wearing Ganassi clothing. (Ganassi having agreed to run an entirely separate team for him in CART).

Thus beginning the rise of Ganassi. For all the bashing MA gets here, if I remember correctly, he brought the first win ever for Ganassi as a team owner (or driver) in CART. A driver with a burning desire to win, meets a team with all the pieces in place but no catalyst.

[Yankee Racer]

On the subject of Greg Moore, he was linked to a McLaren drive.

http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns01175.html

In a similar article that I can't find, Moore said he was more interested in trying NASCAR, but I wasn't really sure if he was being serious.

Little Al had a test with Williams in 1992, didn't he?

[nigelred5]

Do you think McLarens primary sponsor throughout the 80's and 90's had anything to do with wanting an american driver?

[Phoenixent]

Little Al had a test with Williams in 1992, didn't he?

Yes Little Al test with Williams not sure of the year. Also Paul Tracy tested with Benetton in 1994 and Rick Mears tested with Brabham in 1980.

[Placid]

Back in the '80s, Willy T Ribbs also tested for Brahbam. And in 2003, Bryan Herta had a test with Minardi.

Ever since the split, no F1 team could test an AOWR driver until the RBDS came in.

[wedge]

Yes Little Al test with Williams not sure of the year. Also Paul Tracy tested with Benetton in 1994 and Rick Mears tested with Brabham in 1980.

Good article in Motorsport magazine with a silly headline - "The man who said no to Bernie!"

He was quick out of the box, quick to adapt his driving style.

Was offered the money to boot.

Bit of a shame Roger Penske twisted Mears' arm for another crack at Indy.

[BobGarage]

Around 1986/87 Dennis was considering expanding his team to run in IndyCar as well. I was watching the Mid-Ohio race from 1986 a few months back and the commentators talk about his regular trips to the US what he was considering doing....

[D-Type]

Back in the '80s, Willy T Ribbs also tested for Brahbam. And in 2003, Bryan Herta had a test with Minardi.

Ever since the split, no F1 team could test an AOWR driver until the RBDS came in.Please! What is AOWR or RBDS?

[call_me_andrew]

Please! What is AOWR or RBDS?

AOWR: American Open-Wheel Racing

RBDS: Red Bull Driver Search

[futuretiger9]

Do you think McLarens primary sponsor throughout the 80's and 90's had anything to do with wanting an american driver?

I'm not sure. Wasn't it the European arm of Philip Morris which sponsored McLaren? Ironically, of course, the same brand sponsored the leading Indycar team of that era, Penske.

Looking back, the signing of Michael Andretti was astonishing. It's hard to see Ron making a similar signing these days, without doing his homework thoroughly beforehand.

[wedge]

Looking back, the signing of Michael Andretti was astonishing. It's hard to see Ron making a similar signing these days, without doing his homework thoroughly beforehand.

Although Ron Dennis/McLaren generally buy talent off rivals, he did a similar thing with Hamilton ie. F1 rookie.

Ron did do his homework. As I mentioned at the beginning Ron attended the 1991 Indy 500. He signed Andretti halfway through the 1992 season because Berger was moving over to Ferrari for 1993.

Mika Hakkinen was signed on the assumption that Senna was going to leave the team but Senna would only commit to the 1993 season on a race-by-race basis at the behest of Phillip Morris.

Fast forward to 2006. JPM decides to walk out of F1, breaking contractual ties with the team and so forth which means McLaren has no long term 'second driver' good enough to partner Alonso.

[Civic]

Senna wanted to keep Andretti as a teammate, though I don't know if it's because he respected Andretti or knew that it would be easier since Andretti would always be slower than him.

I do know Senna was one of the first to congratulate Mikey on his win (which also continued the debut win streak of Reynard).

[futuretiger9]

Senna wanted to keep Andretti as a teammate, though I don't know if it's because he respected Andretti or knew that it would be easier since Andretti would always be slower than him.

I do know Senna was one of the first to congratulate Mikey on his win (which also continued the debut win streak of Reynard).

I think Ayrton was quoted at the time as saying that Andretti had been unfairly treated, mainly by the European media.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Senna did say Andretti was unfairly treated, and Mikey was. F1 has no shelf life for drivers to adapt. You go fast or your pillored right away. The thing is, that McLaren that year was not as good as the glory years of Senna and Prost. Mike didn't help his cause by insisting on flying back and forth and not living the f1 lifestyle but he showed up and ran fast in the latter half of that year.

AS for other North American drivers who tested and never signed, both PT and Greg Moore were more interested in winning the 500 than going to f1. Most Americans look at racing in the OW world the same way. Europeans and the press that cater to them have never understood that. There is a perception among the f1 ownership and press that American and Canadian drivers are not up to f1 standards, and the reality is most don't really look at f1 as an option. They don't want to fight the subtle insult of having to become a Euroweenie to compete. PT and Mears and the like are who they are and they wouldn't last too long in that vicious bunch of self absorbed backstabbers. The only reason Gilles Villeneuve survived it was because of his immense talent and his ability to not care what people think. His son is the same way. Other North Americans who have flirted with the f1 world such as Speed and the like have had a higher bar to reach and were held to a different standard.

If Ron Dennis was desparate to get North American talent it was because he searching for a driver when his plan A didn't work out. He was one of the few people in Europe willing to look over here, and his signing Gilles in 77 was proof of that. That said, the preconceived notions of the European world of f1 is that North American drivers are not f1 ready even if they have the talent. I am of the opinion a great race driver is a great driver period, whether he drives a 3400 Sprint Cup car or an f1 car. Every level at the top of the sport has talented guys and it is the racing culture they are most comfortable in makes up the fate they choose.

[ykiki]

Didn't Davey Jones have a Brabham test in the early 80s when he was just a teenager?

[Placid]

And so did Richard Antinucci, but he also did not impressed either.

[ArrowsFA1]

If Ron Dennis was desparate to get North American talent it was because he searching for a driver when his plan A didn't work out. He was one of the few people in Europe willing to look over here, and his signing Gilles in 77 was proof of that...
Ron was not yet a part of McLaren in 1977. Teddy Mayer brought GV to McLaren on recommendations from the likes of Chris Amon and James Hunt. Inexplicably Mayer then let him go in favour of Patrick Tambay.

There was talk of Gilles going to RD's McLaren during 1982 though. IIRC some negotiations were conducted via a pitboard to keep Ferrari in the dark :p

[futuretiger9]

Didn't Davey Jones have a Brabham test in the early 80s when he was just a teenager?

Jones was definitely one of those who deserved an F1 shot, having finished third behind Senna and Brundle in the '83 British F3 championship. He could still have done a job in F1 in the early 1990s, but by then his career had taken a different course, towards sportscars.

[philipbain]

Legend has it that Frank Williams' attention was drawn to Nico Rosberg when he was scouting Scott Speed in GP2, as he was truely excited by the idea of a truly competitive american driver, I think he saw the potential for big $! I think it was Patrick Head that told Frank to have a look at Nico Rosberg, as he was doing the winning and of course it was Williams that made his dad a star (and a World Champion of course).

I believe that the powers of F1 would truly love for there to be a world beating american driver on the grid, F1's sponsors are international and the US is the biggest market in the world (though with the recent financial meltdown, how long this will be the case remains in the balance) so from a purely fiscal point of view it would be great, as well as broadening the sport's appeal that would benefit all parties involved.

The question is though - who is there currently? It strikes me the best young american talent gets hoovered up by NASCAR, not the best proving ground for the bleeding edge technical world of F1! Indycar would be a more suitable feeder formula and the IRL would do well to get more young talent into the series. There is Marco, he has showed the odd flash of form in Indycar and he would be very marketable, so given a little more experience and perhaps a season or two of GP2 he could be a very big star in F1, but its that step to GP2 that the amercians don't like, John Andretti was advised to do F3000 if he wanted to do F1, he wouldnt so he never got close to an F1 drive. Micheal's forray into F1 proved that doing GP2 (or F3000 as it was at that time) would be a very wise preparation, the circuits and style of racing are quite different to what is the norm in the states. So in short, if America produces a driver of the right quality and approaches the step to F1 in the right manner there no reason why american drivers shouldnt be in F1.

[call_me_andrew]

Technology is irrelevent. The engineers never listen to the driver.

[Civic]

Technology is irrelevent. The engineers never listen to the driver.

Was it true that Head hated JV's stubbornness? I think Head criticized JV for running a stiff car, while FW admired JV's "take the car by the scrap of the neck" attitude.

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[wedge]

Was it true that Head hated JV's stubbornness?

Yes, same with Mansell.

Head wanted Mansell to run active suspension during GPs whereas Mansell would prefer it ran during testing because it was so unreliable. This was in the 80s when hydraulics technology was at its infancy.

[Placid]

Another thought in the mid-90s aside from Bryan HertaI would also named
Jimmy Vasser and Robby Gordon as potential hopefuls to carry the US flag
into F1.

[futuretiger9]

Another thought in the mid-90s aside from Bryan HertaI would also named
Jimmy Vasser and Robby Gordon as potential hopefuls to carry the US flag
into F1.

At that time, though, CART was ultra-competitive. The F1 opportunities which may have been on offer at the time to those guys would not have been sufficiently attractive, or lucrative for that matter, to lure them away.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The reason Americans don't really gravitate to f1 is the basic premise that for the last 20 years or so f1 has looked upon American drivers and the American market as an afterthought. I think when Mario Andretti was winning for Ferrari and Lotus, the GP was part of the conversation for American race drivers as a possible destination. The problem is no American wants to go to Europe and play the political games to get a ride. The way up through the ranks to get a coveted seat (no more than 6 a year really are worth having as far as winning races go) is a tough road to take (ask Scott Speed) and if you end up on all but a few teams, you wont win anyhow. If an American is going to go through all that and race for points, he will do it in NASCAR and make a very healthy living for a decent lengthed career. The cameraderie off the track with the drivers and the fact that it doesn't leave American soil appeals because being big in America is enough for them.

It sucks that they don't care about f1 but as I stated above, I have often thought F1 really doesn't care too much about America. Also...Americans love close competitive racing. IT isn't a coincedance that best competition for race wins is also the most successful form of racing on the continent.

F1 has to not treat every American drivers as some rube from the sticks and make the USGP a permanent stop on the f1 calender and maybe THEN an American driver will stick around.

[DBell]

Nice bump Mark :D I agree with what you said.

[DirtDevil5]

There was some interest in Al Unser Jr. from F1 teams. Williams tested him in the autumn of 1991, but he was not that quick, and Patrick Head was quoted at the time as saying that he would need to improve his fitness if he wanted to drive in F1.
Benetton also tested Paul Tracy in (I think) 1993 at Estoril. He was respectably quick, but rumours were that he declined any sort of driving contract because it would have required him to agree a multi-year deal to be managed by Flavio Briatore, and he was not prepared to do that. In fact, when he arrived at Estoril he was asked to sign a contract before even getting in the car, refused to do so and went off to his hotel until the issue was resolved.
The McLaren signing of Michael Andretti was self-financing, according to articles I read at the time, by virtue of the sponsorship money that came to the team from the USA. If you look at pictures of the 1993 car, you can clearly see significant signage from Dirt Devil, and other smaller logos from several other US sponsors. After Andretti was stood down from the team after being replaced by Mika Hakkinen, Andretti and Dennis even went on a US trip so that Dennis could explain to media and sponsors there why Andretti had been replaced. As I recall, the official explanation was something along the lines that Andretti had been replaced because Ron could not commit to him for 1994 and beyond, and he needed to be able to work out his 1994 plans without being distracted by driving duties. However, that did not really hold water, since Andretti had signed for Ganassi within days of being stood down by McLaren, and even attended a CART race shortly afterwards wearing Ganassi clothing. (Ganassi having agreed to run an entirely separate team for him in CART).



the KMart & DirtDevil sponsorship remained on the McLaren cars thru
the end of the 93 season post Andretti, per sponsor contracts.
Michael Andretti was fired by McLaren in 1993 for poor performance
issues and probably lack of commitment issues as well. case closed.
Michael was in way over his head in F1 and did more harm world-wide
to AOWR, image wise than any other driver, ever.
you could go ahead and ask him but Michael has never wanted to
speak the truth about any of this.

[markabilly]

Senna did say Andretti was unfairly treated, and Mikey was. F1 has no shelf life for drivers to adapt. You go fast or your pillored right away. The thing is, that McLaren that year was not as good as the glory years of Senna and Prost. Mike didn't help his cause by insisting on flying back and forth and not living the f1 lifestyle but he showed up and ran fast in the latter half of that year.

AS for other North American drivers who tested and never signed, both PT and Greg Moore were more interested in winning the 500 than going to f1. Most Americans look at racing in the OW world the same way. Europeans and the press that cater to them have never understood that. There is a perception among the f1 ownership and press that American and Canadian drivers are not up to f1 standards, and the reality is most don't really look at f1 as an option. They don't want to fight the subtle insult of having to become a Euroweenie to compete. PT and Mears and the like are who they are and they wouldn't last too long in that vicious bunch of self absorbed backstabbers. The only reason Gilles Villeneuve survived it was because of his immense talent and his ability to not care what people think. His son is the same way. Other North Americans who have flirted with the f1 world such as Speed and the like have had a higher bar to reach and were held to a different standard.

If Ron Dennis was desparate to get North American talent it was because he searching for a driver when his plan A didn't work out. He was one of the few people in Europe willing to look over here, and his signing Gilles in 77 was proof of that. That said, the preconceived notions of the European world of f1 is that North American drivers are not f1 ready even if they have the talent. I am of the opinion a great race driver is a great driver period, whether he drives a 3400 Sprint Cup car or an f1 car. Every level at the top of the sport has talented guys and it is the racing culture they are most comfortable in makes up the fate they choose.


It is called egocentrism and all those folks thinkin if they ain't in f1 it is beacuse they are not good enough, where I think that all those folks who ain't in nascar, it is because they do not want Johnson, Gordon and all the rest make them look like back field also-rans.....sort of like JPM often looks like, just another also-ran in nascar (and with a good car, capable of winning) who won and scored higher far more in f1 events than nascar, where car differences are not that much, unlike f1...well, once again... :eek: OPPS!!!!! :eek:

[ykiki]

What ever happened to Elton Julian? IIRC he had tested for, and was also in line for a race seat with Larrouse when that team folded.

[Mark in Oshawa]

the KMart & DirtDevil sponsorship remained on the McLaren cars thru
the end of the 93 season post Andretti, per sponsor contracts.
Michael Andretti was fired by McLaren in 1993 for poor performance
issues and probably lack of commitment issues as well. case closed.
Michael was in way over his head in F1 and did more harm world-wide
to AOWR, image wise than any other driver, ever.
you could go ahead and ask him but Michael has never wanted to
speak the truth about any of this.

He didn't do the AOWR scene that much harm because Jacques Villeneuve came from the same series, won the 500, won the championship and then went over to Williams and won in his second year. He did it with a lot of thinking and attitude he had from working on his cars over here in North America. His pass on the outside of Schmaucher at Estoril one year was because he had the team set up the car like he was running on an oval turning right to gain speed on that last corner. He had to practically put a gun to the head of Patrick Head and company to allow him to experiment with setups close to what he ran on ovals in the US and it WORKED.

I think by the time he was done, and JPM had his monster year over here that people realized the racing in the US wasn't that bad.....

That said..there is still a bias that occurs in Europe and I think it just isn't in racing but in football, and in most sports. One only has to see the Eurocentric bias in the members of the IOC to understand that....

[DirtDevil5]

both Indy Car drivers yes,, but Canadian & Columbian not USA..

[Mark in Oshawa]

DirtDevil, do you really think Michael holding an American passport makes a difference? It was the idea that the CART circuit at the time was where retired F1 drivers went to win races. The F1 mentality was and to an extent is that North American racing is of lesser value. Of course, this is probably a reaction to the American attitude of "if it isn't happening here, it aint happening".

I just have the opinion that the f1 world has its attitude that nothing else matters but that FIA World Championship and what many in that form of racing seem to miss is that the racing in f1 is as much the car than the drivers. In American racing, the driver has a lot more say in the victory.

If Ron Dennis was desparate to get North American talent it was because he searching for a driver when his plan A didn't work out. He was one of the few people in Europe willing to look over here, and his signing Gilles in 77 was proof of that.

Ron Dennis had nothing to do with Mclaren until 1980. It was Teddy Mayer who gave Villenueve his F1 debut.

[BDunnell]

The reason Americans don't really gravitate to f1 is the basic premise that for the last 20 years or so f1 has looked upon American drivers and the American market as an afterthought. I think when Mario Andretti was winning for Ferrari and Lotus, the GP was part of the conversation for American race drivers as a possible destination. The problem is no American wants to go to Europe and play the political games to get a ride.

What do you think changed? After all, it wasn't just Andretti representing North America in the '60s and '70s — we shouldn't forget people such as Phil Hill, Dan Gurney, Richie Ginther, Mark Donohue and Peter Revson. North American drivers were certainly 'in fashion' back then, but it didn't last much beyond Mario, and it wasn't as if plenty of quite big North American names didn't give it a go.



F1 has to not treat every American drivers as some rube from the sticks and make the USGP a permanent stop on the f1 calender and maybe THEN an American driver will stick around.

I've always thought that modern-day F1 doesn't need, nor especially want, North America and modern-day North America doesn't need, nor especially want, F1. The same applies to North American open-wheel racing in Europe. Under these circumstances, it isn't surprising that no North American drivers have stuck around in F1.

[BDunnell]

I just have the opinion that the f1 world has its attitude that nothing else matters but that FIA World Championship...

If you're referring to the lack of interest the F1 world has in North American open-wheel racing, I don't think we should be surprised by this. It's hardly as if either form of racing is in any way seriously deficient as a result of the lack of 'crossover'. Other problems are more fundamental. Personally, I am more concerned about how the FIA has the attitude that nothing else really matters but the F1 World Championship, and its poor management of other series.

[BDunnell]

Other than the ones you mention in your post, what other "big North American names" are you referring to? Michael and JV who've already been mentioned sure, who else?

Well, several who tested for F1 teams and have been mentioned in this thread, plus Rick Mears who tested and turned F1 down, and Bobby Rahal and Danny Ongais who actually raced, admittedly for 'lower division' teams. I am sure there are others.

Other than the ones you mention in your post, what other "big North American names" are you referring to? Michael and JV who've already been mentioned sure, who else?

Danny Sullivan.

[ykiki]

Brett Lunger & Kevin Cogan as well. Not the greatest names in racing for sure, but at least Americans were getting opportunities. Now you're lucky if you get one a decade.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Americans in f1 you can count on one hand since Mario hung it up. It is the ultimate flaw in the argument that f1 is the supreme form of motorsport that some would like to argue.

To have the richest market in the world, with more racing drivers per capita than any other to NOT have a few drivers in the F1 championship EVERY year sort of points to an opportunity being missed. Once Scott Speed was sent packing, the teams in Europe more or less went back to ignoring the fact there is a TON of talent in North America but it has to be identifyed and given a shot. No American driver is really even invited to climb the ladder in Europe whereas you can bet Flavio Briatore, Frank Williams and the like have no problem naming 10 possible drivers who are 18 who they might have in their car in two years. None of them will be from North America though unless the American or Canadian go native and do it from France like Speed did. THAT is just goofy. I commend Red Bull for the effort they took in trying to put an American in f1.

[BDunnell]

Americans in f1 you can count on one hand since Mario hung it up. It is the ultimate flaw in the argument that f1 is the supreme form of motorsport that some would like to argue.

To have the richest market in the world, with more racing drivers per capita than any other to NOT have a few drivers in the F1 championship EVERY year sort of points to an opportunity being missed. Once Scott Speed was sent packing, the teams in Europe more or less went back to ignoring the fact there is a TON of talent in North America but it has to be identifyed and given a shot. No American driver is really even invited to climb the ladder in Europe whereas you can bet Flavio Briatore, Frank Williams and the like have no problem naming 10 possible drivers who are 18 who they might have in their car in two years. None of them will be from North America though unless the American or Canadian go native and do it from France like Speed did. THAT is just goofy. I commend Red Bull for the effort they took in trying to put an American in f1.

None of this answers the question about what changed after Mario's time.

[BDunnell]

Also never had a regular F1 ride. Particularly after he became a "name" in CanAm and then CART.

Test drives and one offs don't qualify as "big North American names"
having a chance.

Why did these remain examples of 'test drives and one-offs'? I think this is the question one needs to ask oneself.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Why did these remain examples of 'test drives and one-offs'? I think this is the question one needs to ask oneself.
Speed or politics? We will never know because we were not there. I suspect politics comes into it. Teams develop drivers and have relationships with agents in Europe who have their guys coming up. Most of the Americans or Canadians are often coming in and having to be fast right off the top or they will not get a second look.

If you win GP2 and you are a bit slow in testing, you get the benefit of the doubt. If you are from Formula Atlantics you wont get the test unless you won every race last year and if you did get the test, they will want to see that speed right away.

The F1 circus is forgiving if you play the game their way. If you race in Europe where the team bosses can see you every week on TV or live, you will develop a following and a relationship with the top teams. Racing on this side of the Atlantic doesn't keep you in the forefront.

No one will ever convince me that the talent is not in North America to compete in Formula 1. What it is though is a separate world of racing and it is large enough that there is no need for many of these guys to aspire to f1 to be rich and famous. Beating and banging 43 stock cars for 36 weeks may not seem like much to some in Europe, but money wise and FUN wise ( this is supposed to be fun is it not? ) it takes no backseat, and as JPM has said more than once, it is a tougher game to be good in because everyone has the same stuff more or less you do....

[ykiki]

Brett Lunger bought his ride. Kevin Cogan? Who'd he ever drive for in F1?

Cogan had a few DNQs in the early 80s for RAM and Tyrrell. Not a "big name American", but that wasn't really my point.

It just seems like you could find Americans in F1 25 - 30 years ago, whether they were household names or not. Rahal, Ongais, Cogan, Sullivan - at least they got a shot at F1. Eddie Cheever was the only American "regular" in the last couple decades. Having grown up in Europe, no one in America really knew who he was until he moved to CART and the IRL. Nobody else has lasted longer than a season and a half. Nowadays Americans aren't even on anyone's F1 radar.

Oh, and about Ongais - he drove a handful of F1 races in the late 70s. In only his second F1 race he finished 7th in the 77 Canadian GP - just shy scoring points. Today, that result would garner 2 points.

[Placid]

From this decade, the very best US hopefuls who would have been in F1 are
as follows (Right before the Red Bull Driver Search):

Buddy Rice
Jon Fogarty
AJ Allmendinger
Sam Hornish Jr

Also never had a regular F1 ride. Particularly after he became a "name" in CanAm and then CART.

Test drives and one offs don't qualify as "big North American names"
having a chance.

Sullivan had a full-time seat at Tyrrell in 1983. That is a "regular" drive.

He lost it at the end of the season mainly because Benetton took their sponsorship to Alfa Romeo for the 84 season & Alfa already had an American driver who fulfilled Benetton's request to have an US name for marketing purposes, Eddie Cheever. Oh, that and not scoring any points.

Tyrrell took two novices for 84 due to having no sponsorship at all.

[BDunnell]

Speed or politics? We will never know because we were not there. I suspect politics comes into it. Teams develop drivers and have relationships with agents in Europe who have their guys coming up. Most of the Americans or Canadians are often coming in and having to be fast right off the top or they will not get a second look.

If you win GP2 and you are a bit slow in testing, you get the benefit of the doubt. If you are from Formula Atlantics you wont get the test unless you won every race last year and if you did get the test, they will want to see that speed right away.

The F1 circus is forgiving if you play the game their way. If you race in Europe where the team bosses can see you every week on TV or live, you will develop a following and a relationship with the top teams. Racing on this side of the Atlantic doesn't keep you in the forefront.

No one will ever convince me that the talent is not in North America to compete in Formula 1. What it is though is a separate world of racing and it is large enough that there is no need for many of these guys to aspire to f1 to be rich and famous. Beating and banging 43 stock cars for 36 weeks may not seem like much to some in Europe, but money wise and FUN wise ( this is supposed to be fun is it not? ) it takes no backseat, and as JPM has said more than once, it is a tougher game to be good in because everyone has the same stuff more or less you do....

All very interesting, but still I don't understand what changed between the '60s/'70s and now! Could it be that young American drivers don't want to come to Europe to race as much now as the likes of Hill and Andretti did, because of the huge riches on offer 'at home'? Could the lack of crossover between the European and US 'scenes' today be a factor, when in the '60s and '70s there was a great deal more with British teams and drivers going over to Indy, the huge profile of the big sportscar races in the US and Europe, the rise of Can-Am with its major European participation, etc? Maybe this is at the root of what you describe as the 'separate world of racing' that exists today in the US?

[D-Type]

What changed between the 60s/70s and now? CART,IRL, and FOCA.

Quite simply there is now no road racing of note occurring in the States. Ask an average American what motor racing means and he will visualise racing around an oval probably in vividly painted glorified taxi cabs. The up-and-coming drivers aspire to winning a 500 mile race at either Indianapolis or Daytona.

[Mark in Oshawa]

All very interesting, but still I don't understand what changed between the '60s/'70s and now! Could it be that young American drivers don't want to come to Europe to race as much now as the likes of Hill and Andretti did, because of the huge riches on offer 'at home'? Could the lack of crossover between the European and US 'scenes' today be a factor, when in the '60s and '70s there was a great deal more with British teams and drivers going over to Indy, the huge profile of the big sportscar races in the US and Europe, the rise of Can-Am with its major European participation, etc? Maybe this is at the root of what you describe as the 'separate world of racing' that exists today in the US?

A lot did change. D - Type is right in that the series in North America changed. It also was seen that CART was a legitimate place for an aspiring race driver. The late Greg Moore always looked towards CART and Indy and NOT f1 merely because he didn't see it as inferior to f1. Paul Tracy was much the same.

The problem is that to go to Europe from North America or from Europe to the IRL in the US is involving a culture shock. European drivers who fail to make it in F1 or GP2 come over because the OW racing community in Europe will still look highly upon a guy coming over to the IRL/CART/CCWS and beating up the locals (Sebatien Bourdais) whereas an American going to Europe might as well enter the witness protection program.

America really doesn't care for f1 that much. Americans like passing. They like racing and they like something they can identify. F1 doesn't give them much of those three factors. Put NASCAR and its overwhelming power in the market place and f1 is off the radar.

I think too you are also underestimating the fun factor. Show me an F1 driver who doesn't look like he is having an enema done on Sunday mornings and I will show you one who will be looking for a ride in the next year. The pressure cooker of f1 and the brutality of the cars to drive, coupled with the lack of side by side racing makes f1 a rather techinical if boring series to participate in. American drivers see THAT and see the joking and comradery of NASCAR or even the Indy car paddock and they realize they can enjoy racing without the pressure cooker of f1.

In short, American drivers decided about two minutes after Mario hung it up from f1 that they didn't really have to prove anything by going over. A few did here and there but never really enjoyed the process and often were in crap rides. Seeing how Scott Speed was blamed for his team's failings doesn't make anyone want to change that either.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sullivan had a full-time seat at Tyrrell in 1983. That is a "regular" drive.

He lost it at the end of the season mainly because Benetton took their sponsorship to Alfa Romeo for the 84 season & Alfa already had an American driver who fulfilled Benetton's request to have an US name for marketing purposes, Eddie Cheever. Oh, that and not scoring any points.

Tyrrell took two novices for 84 due to having no sponsorship at all.

Not scoring points? Like his teammate. Like most Tyrell drivers did in the 80's. Danny may not have been an f1 driving champion but I suspect his skills were greater than he was allowed to show in that Tyrell and if pressed I suspect Ken would have admitted that if he was still alive.

[BDunnell]

A lot did change. D - Type is right in that the series in North America changed. It also was seen that CART was a legitimate place for an aspiring race driver. The late Greg Moore always looked towards CART and Indy and NOT f1 merely because he didn't see it as inferior to f1. Paul Tracy was much the same.

The problem is that to go to Europe from North America or from Europe to the IRL in the US is involving a culture shock. European drivers who fail to make it in F1 or GP2 come over because the OW racing community in Europe will still look highly upon a guy coming over to the IRL/CART/CCWS and beating up the locals (Sebatien Bourdais) whereas an American going to Europe might as well enter the witness protection program.

America really doesn't care for f1 that much. Americans like passing. They like racing and they like something they can identify. F1 doesn't give them much of those three factors. Put NASCAR and its overwhelming power in the market place and f1 is off the radar.

I think too you are also underestimating the fun factor. Show me an F1 driver who doesn't look like he is having an enema done on Sunday mornings and I will show you one who will be looking for a ride in the next year. The pressure cooker of f1 and the brutality of the cars to drive, coupled with the lack of side by side racing makes f1 a rather techinical if boring series to participate in. American drivers see THAT and see the joking and comradery of NASCAR or even the Indy car paddock and they realize they can enjoy racing without the pressure cooker of f1.

In short, American drivers decided about two minutes after Mario hung it up from f1 that they didn't really have to prove anything by going over. A few did here and there but never really enjoyed the process and often were in crap rides. Seeing how Scott Speed was blamed for his team's failings doesn't make anyone want to change that either.

Given all of this, should we be surprised that US drivers don't get much of a chance — or don't want to compete in — F1, and that there is no interest in US series in Europe despite numerous efforts to change this? I don't think so. Therefore, I don't feel that either the lack of North Americans in F1 nor the almost complete European antipathy towards US series should be a particular source of concern to anyone.

Not scoring points? Like his teammate.

Mark, his team-mate did score points in one race that year.....Detroit GP......Actually, he didn't just score points. He won it.

However, I do agree that Sullivan was a lot better driver than the results show. He wasn't far off Alboreto's pace, never having seen any of the tracks before and his drive in the Race of Champions at Brands Hatch (the last ever non-Championship F1 race) was an indication of his talent (he pushed Rosberg all the way to the flag).

It was a shame that he never had the chance to further his F1 career, as there was definite promise there.