Women drivers in motorsport..

[Zico]

Wasnt sure which forum sector to post this under as its a very general question.Not sure if this has been covered before either..

I recently had an unresolved debate with a friend about why we have seen so few succesfull women drivers in motorsport, he reckoned it was down to strength and fitness levels.

I had to partly dissagree with him as I dont think its as big an issue in the WRC.
He also suggested that mens brains better suited to driving due to a superior spacial awareness/measurement functionality evolved/developed by our hunting ancestors..
I didnt dissagree with this, but pointed out the exceptions of Michelle Mouton, possibly Louise Aitken Walker and the current Danica Patrick, which brought our debate to a stalemate.

I simply believe that women are generally not as interested in motorsport as men are.


I know this is probably a pointless thread with an obvious answer but hopefully your input will rubbish his P.O.V. once and for all.

So, your thoughts, opinions ?

[rah]

As far as I am concerned it is a matter of numbers. You need a lot of women trying to get into motorsport to get the numbers up. At the moment all you are seeing is the most determined getting in there. Once you have thousands of women trying you will not get more than a few at the top. Just have a look at men, how many men try to make it into F1? how many men get to F1?

There may be slight differences in certain skills, but they will cancel each other out over time.

[SEATFreak]

Granted if their isn't that many to begin with their may be a chance not all of the few who do get involved will qualify/graduate, but could it be a simple case that males qualify/graduate more often than females?

[AndySpeed]

It could be a case of money: that motorsport is a sport in which to succeed you initially need lots of backing and that for women it is harder to get this support and financial backing at the very start.

[AndyRAC]

I don't think you can compare Michelle with Danica. One was a feisty talented driver, the other is just a whinger who got lucky in a race, and is now milking it.

I read a fabulous book 'The Bugatti Queen', the story of the 1920s automobile racer known as Helle Nice. The book gives a really good idea of what car racing was like way back then and I can only admire the fortitude of the men and women. I think there are a small percentage of women who do well in what are traditionally male occupations/sports etc and there are probably very good reasons for this, spatial ability being one.

[Zico]

I read a fabulous book 'The Bugatti Queen', the story of the 1920s automobile racer known as Helle Nice. The book gives a really good idea of what car racing was like way back then and I can only admire the fortitude of the men and women. I think there are a small percentage of women who do well in what are traditionally male occupations/sports etc and there are probably very good reasons for this, spatial ability being one.

I agree that there may well be something in men having better spatial ability despite the odd exceptional women.


I don't think you can compare Michelle with Danica. One was a feisty talented driver, the other is just a whinger who got lucky in a race, and is now milking it.

Yep, its a bit of an insult to include Michelle in the same sentence as Danica, as far as talent goes. I guess I was struggling for names.. :D



It could be a case of money: that motorsport is a sport in which to succeed you initially need lots of backing and that for women it is harder to get this support and financial backing at the very start.

On the contrary, I'd imagine women would find it far easier to find that backing. Sponsors would be more attracted to the increased media coverage a woman would recieve over a man. If Im correct with this, I'd expect talented women fast-tracked to the top. Something we just dont seem to be seeing very often.


As far as I am concerned it is a matter of numbers. You need a lot of women trying to get into motorsport to get the numbers up. At the moment all you are seeing is the most determined getting in there. Once you have thousands of women trying you will not get more than a few at the top. Just have a look at men, how many men try to make it into F1? how many men get to F1?

There may be slight differences in certain skills, but they will cancel each other out over time.

Yep, I think that sums it up.. the percentage of men interested in motorsport in comparison to women must be the biggest factor.

[MrJan]

On the contrary, I'd imagine women would find it far easier to find that backing. Sponsors would be more attracted to the increased media coverage a woman would recieve over a man. If Im correct with this, I'd expect talented women fast-tracked to the top. Something we just dont seem to be seeing very often.

Yup. Reckon more people will have heard of Katherine Legge than Dan Wheldon. Likewise Fiona Leggate and Martyn bell.

I can actually only think of one woman to ever truly compete on the same level (Michelle Mouton) as male counterparts. Generally I think that this is a mix of the ratio of people trying to make it (look at all the support series to BTCC, GT etc. etc which is male dominated. Also men are more spatially aware (women better at spotting things) so that makes training to race a bit easier.

[Gurl Racer]

Naturally, men are better at sports than woman... due to their testosterone. Motorsport is physically and mentally demanding, and you have to be fit to be competing at a serious level.

But when I'm at small club events, there is usually quite a few females competing too. I just think that at the top level, it's a little bit harder for females to get in/accepted. Don't forget about families too ;)

[MrJan]

But when I'm at small club events, there is usually quite a few females competing too. I just think that at the top level, it's a little bit harder for females to get in/accepted. Don't forget about families too ;)

Do men not have families? :p :

True that there is a bigger proportion of women at club events but at the few sprint events I've competed in there is still an extremely male dominated entry list, likewise watching rallies and general track racing. I''d say that there is rarely more than 10% of a field made up by women.

And mostly the reason that they aren't accepted at the top level is that they just aren't good enough, something that is eveident by results, see Danica with her funding in America or almost any woman in a club event versus a bloke in a similar car. I'm not saying that all women are slower but I'd reckon that the majority are outpaced by blokes.

[GridGirl]

I love motorsport, yet I have absolutely no desire to compete. I've had a go at Karting, infact we had a works do a few months ago but after a few of the short sprints I was bored of it.

Maybe wanting to drive fast and race is just a boy thing. :p

[inimitablestoo]

When Autosport did a feature on women racers last year, I think it was Katherine who pretty much dismissed the fitness factor. It was also interesting to see the other week that the best finish for a woman at Le Mans occurred back in the 1930s - and those cars would have been physically demanding to say the least!

I also noticed how the three female drivers in the Indy 500 at the weekend were effectively taken out by three of the guys in the race... :s

[leopard]

Naturally, men are better at sports than woman... due to their testosterone. Motorsport is physically and mentally demanding, and you have to be fit to be competing at a serious level.


I think Drew have made brief definition on math about woman ...

[dc10]

I can answer for myself - if I had had the opportunity, money, time etc when I was younger I would have jumped at the chance to race but it was never an option. I dont have any female friends who are motor-racing fans so I think lack of numbers must be the major reason there are so few women racers. I dont think it has anything to do with fitness/stamina - they can be worked on by either sex.

[Gurl Racer]

That too, I was often called nasty names by girlfriends of the guys I was racing with/against... and I couldn't be bothered half the time!

[SubaruNorway]

Pernilla Solberg was a Norwegian champion in group N in 2000 and i think she could of got the offer of stepping into the wrc if it hadn't been for the family I've heard.

This girl seems to have some talent, even been to john Haugland's Rally School here in Norway.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Taylor-family-with-up-and_129148.htm

[janvanvurpa]

I can answer for myself - if I had had the opportunity, money, time etc when I was younger I would have jumped at the chance to race but it was never an option. I dont have any female friends who are motor-racing fans so I think lack of numbers must be the major reason there are so few women racers. I dont think it has anything to do with fitness/stamina - they can be worked on by either sex.

Exactly right!
The tiny differences in supposed "natural" skills are merely the starting point that a guy or a gal brings and at a 100% amateur level that can be a factor, maybe.

But at any slightly higher level there will be a need for some systematic skills TRAINING, and at least with cars, thats EXPENSIVE.
But that training or practice---given the same level of motivation---will be decisive.

There are always old arguements---from boys---about what's decisive and they're always funny to me (retired from making a living racing moto-cross years ago).
They drag out "Reflexes!!!!---ya gotta be young, cause young guys have faster reflexes!!!"

I bug them when i say "No, reflexes are over-rated, with experience you don't put yourself into a position that the reflexes are a factor, and you see situations developing earlier, and AVOID problems"

They say "Strength!!! You gotta be strong!"
I say "Oh yeah, we don't have power steering on the cars? Oh wait look at this! Seems my Sierra rally car does have power steering!! Guess I don't have to be strong"

The critical thing is personal motivation and social reinforcement for certain complex behaviours, eg does society think it's admirable for a person to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours doing some pointless sport at the expense of a normal life.
There it seems that more males seem to choose to do single things even to levels destructive of their personal lives, physical heath and to interpersonal relationships.

[Zico]

Exactly right!
The tiny differences in supposed "natural" skills are merely the starting point that a guy or a gal brings and at a 100% amateur level that can be a factor, maybe.

But at any slightly higher level there will be a need for some systematic skills TRAINING, and at least with cars, thats EXPENSIVE.
But that training or practice---given the same level of motivation---will be decisive.

There are always old arguements---from boys---about what's decisive and they're always funny to me (retired from making a living racing moto-cross years ago).
They drag out "Reflexes!!!!---ya gotta be young, cause young guys have faster reflexes!!!"

I bug them when i say "No, reflexes are over-rated, with experience you don't put yourself into a position that the reflexes are a factor, and you see situations developing earlier, and AVOID problems"

They say "Strength!!! You gotta be strong!"
I say "Oh yeah, we don't have power steering on the cars? Oh wait look at this! Seems my Sierra rally car does have power steering!! Guess I don't have to be strong"

The critical thing is personal motivation and social reinforcement for certain complex behaviours, eg does society think it's admirable for a person to spend hundreds and hundreds of hours doing some pointless sport at the expense of a normal life.
There it seems that more males seem to choose to do single things even to levels destructive of their personal lives, physical heath and to interpersonal relationships.


Good points well made...

Do you believe theres anything in the theory that men generally have better spatial computation abilities?

[Azumanga Davo]

The NHRA has always had a good share of female drivers, some of which will be/are big names (Shirley Muldowney, Ashley Force, Melanie Troxel, Angelle Sampey etc.). I for one have never understood the reason behind it, but quality entertainment is always guaranteed and that's a winner in my book. ;)

[MrJan]

The NHRA has always had a good share of female drivers, some of which will be/are big names (Shirley Muldowney, Ashley Force, Melanie Troxel, Angelle Sampey etc.). I for one have never understood the reason behind it, but quality entertainment is always guaranteed and that's a winner in my book. ;)

Yeah drag racing seems to be an area where women compete on an equal basis. Troxel was winning fairly often when I used to watch on FiveUS and back when I used to go to Santa Pod there was some finnish woman pretty much dominating the European drag scene (believe she might have been the first to get sub-5 second which shows how long it is since I've been drag racing :D )

To an extent reactions do have a place because while an older driver with slower reactions can foresee danger so can the younger driver but the younger driver can also react quicker. Obviously fast reactions alone are not good enough else Francois Duval and Dani Sordo would not crash as much but Loeb is still a fairly young bloke and could probably wipe the floor with Sainz or Makinen. Likewise I think that Latvala and Hirvonen would also run them close despite not having the same experience.

[Zico]

To an extent reactions do have a place because while an older driver with slower reactions can foresee danger so can the younger driver but the younger driver can also react quicker. Obviously fast reactions alone are not good enough else Francois Duval and Dani Sordo would not crash as much but Loeb is still a fairly young bloke and could probably wipe the floor with Sainz or Makinen. Likewise I think that Latvala and Hirvonen would also run them close despite not having the same experience.

I think your correct but then I also think that experience is far more valuable (within the age group of 17-35). Comparisons to the current generation of WRC drivers with the old guard is perhaps an unreliable indicator of reaction time vs experience due to the differences in style learned for the current and previous generation of cars. You'd have to include a reverse of the experiment and try the young guns in the passive cars, now that would be very interesting to see.
Reaction time is a very interesting subject in itself, I know I drive differently and far better/quicker/safer than I did when I was younger, Id love to read a case study on the reaction time results of people as they age, anyone know of any?.. there must be one out there.

[Zico]

Found one here.. http://www.psy.ed.ac.uk/people/iand/Der%20(2006)%20Psychology%20and%20Aging%20reaction %20time%20age%20hals.pdf

Interesting...

[Azumanga Davo]

I think your correct but then I also think that experience is far more valuable (within the age group of 17-35). Comparisons to the current generation of WRC drivers with the old guard is perhaps an unreliable indicator of reaction time vs experience due to the differences in style learned for the current and previous generation of cars. You'd have to include a reverse of the experiment and try the young guns in the passive cars, now that would be very interesting to see.
Reaction time is a very interesting subject in itself, I know I drive differently and far better/quicker/safer than I did when I was younger, Id love to read a case study on the reaction time results of people as they age, anyone know of any?.. there must be one out there.

I'm trying to get mine down from a 0.003 at the moment, but now the off-season kicks in until October...

[Zico]

I'm trying to get mine down from a 0.003 at the moment, but now the off-season kicks in until October...

I thought you were taking the piss at 1st but no smileys above makes me wonder.. :D

If not.. What program do you use? Like to see what mine is..

[Zico]

I'm trying to get mine down from a 0.003 at the moment, but now the off-season kicks in until October...

Yep, your taking the piss now.. :D

[ready2rock]

There's more female drivers coming through the ranks now - look at the Ginetta Juniors who have 4/5 female drivers this year, and they aren't slow either!

[MrJan]

Comparisons to the current generation of WRC drivers with the old guard is perhaps an unreliable indicator of reaction time vs experience due to the differences in style learned for the current and previous generation of cars.

Loeb learnt in a 2 wheel drive Saxo for years before being dropped into the Xsara and being quicker than Sainz. Obviously you need both reaction and experience but I'm saying that if I had the choice of either I wouldn't necessarily opt for experience, no good being able to see that something is about to happen without being able to act in avoidance.

[Zico]

Loeb learnt in a 2 wheel drive Saxo for years before being dropped into the Xsara and being quicker than Sainz. Obviously you need both reaction and experience but I'm saying that if I had the choice of either I wouldn't necessarily opt for experience, no good being able to see that something is about to happen without being able to act in avoidance.

Yep, if you were blessed with superhuman reaction times, you'd only need the experience...

[Azumanga Davo]

Yep, your taking the piss now.. :D

The light sequence of course does take 0.400 of a second, but my timecard did read it as 0.003 (or 0.403 in terms of reading the lights).

My motivation to get the elusive perfect light (0.000) remains high though (what with a nice financial gain to be had :p : )

[janvanvurpa]

I think your correct but then I also think that experience is far more valuable (within the age group of 17-35). Comparisons to the current generation of WRC drivers with the old guard is perhaps an unreliable indicator of reaction time vs experience due to the differences in style learned for the current and previous generation of cars. You'd have to include a reverse of the experiment and try the young guns in the passive cars, now that would be very interesting to see.
Reaction time is a very interesting subject in itself, I know I drive differently and far better/quicker/safer than I did when I was younger, Id love to read a case study on the reaction time results of people as they age, anyone know of any?.. there must be one out there.

I can only suggest things which may be difficult to find regarding this simple reaction time vs experience, but it's worth mentioning.
My father was a US Navy pilot from the middle of WWII until 1972. I grew up around these fairly fiesty, competitive types of guys and was of course mightyly impressed with everything around them and flying (especially after a friend of my father who was piloting the DC3/Dakota we were flying from Naples to Rome let me take the controls and "fly" the airplane for a while when i was just over 5, Oh yeah I was hooked) and spent a lot of time hanging around when other pilots were over and "shooting the breeze" about the whole "Art" of flying.
Now I remember clearly that a whole bunch of his friends and he were all seriously discussing this whole reaction time thing after a US Navy report came out and was circulated after the Korean War trying to analyze exactly what made a more EFFECTIVE fighter pilot.
The report noticed a surprising thing that OLDER pilots, guys of my Dad's generation who had gone into the Navy in '42, '43, 44, shot down more baddies, and we're shot down themselves at far lower rates.

This was a revelation and I recall heated arguments from some of his friends on this very thing : Reaction times are decisive.

Let's just say that the US Navy concluded that the BEST, most effective at shooting down baddies and coming home again were pilots that had MORE EXPERIENCE (and many were in their late 20s early to mid 30s) vs the younger guys with inarguably marginally quicker "Reflexes' but poorer judgment in too may areas---essentially an inability to CONCENTRATE.

This study came up several times in conversations with my father when I had decided to aim for being a full time professional moto-cross guy. I told my father I had met and talked with a whole stack of the World Championship elite from the 1960s and they universally said to me (17 at the time) "Give yourself 10 years to gain the condition and importantly the experience"
(and I did and they were right.)

Now in the world of car stuff, specifically rally, even if the level of performance is extremely low in USA, the tendancies are there in this discussion and i've watch many younger guys who so strongly believe that having "fast reflexes" is so vital.

What I've seen is reflected in the link to those tests, peak speed may be in early 20s but most consistent speed was in late 20s.
I take it further.
Simple "slap the button" does test reaction times effectively.

BUT! driving down a stage, especially a gravel stage is not anywhere near as simplistic, indeed, considering relative to even a 25 year old moto-cross motorcycle what hulking, slow to react, cumbersome beasts cars are, driving down a gravel stage is pretty difficult to do correct even at clubman level.

So I suggest that the actual execution of the skills correctly is far more decisive than the ability to have "fast reflexes".
Indeed my experience in both moto-cross and gravel rally has shown me that most young guys believe that fast reactions are important because they are constantly making errors, mostly from trying too hard (failure to brake correctly and diving too deep into turns before attempting to brake and initiate a turn well past the middle of a turn and thus sliding way out towards the outside ---and into the ditch or the trees).

Finally, reaction AFTER a period of concentration, is and can be trained, and once trained, maintained.
The way I try to settle the discussion whn it comes up is an old bar trick: I hold a Dollar bill just over the outstretched thumb and index finger of my "reaction time is decisive" fan and tell them that I will be nice and even count 3 before dropping the dollar---which is about 155mm long, and their job is to catch it before it drops between the fingers.
To make it interesting I would keep up a distracting chatter "You OK? Don't choke up!!!! Relax!!! It's only a test! No reason to sweat!! Relax I'm going to count three!!! You know when its going to happen! Why you nervous, come on, relax here it goes!!! 1-2- You ready? Its coming on three remember??!! Want me to start over.? " This delivered very rapidly.
It is EXTREMELY rare for anybody to catch the dollar bill before it hits the ground. Seems the only people who have even 50% catch rate are those who have had 5+ years of competition in some form.

In my case, cause I was usually challenged "Oh yeah? Let's see you do it" I could usually catch the dollar about 80% of the time even into my mid 40s, not from simple reaction, but, and I know this, from that Tommy Mäkinen "Never blink" type concentration.

[SchUMine]

Turkish Rally Driver; Burcu Cetinkaya is doing Fiesta Sporting Trophy International this year.

http://fiestasportingtrophy.com/2008season.asp

[COD]

The NHRA has always had a good share of female drivers, some of which will be/are big names (Shirley Muldowney, Ashley Force, Melanie Troxel, Angelle Sampey etc.). I for one have never understood the reason behind it, but quality entertainment is always guaranteed and that's a winner in my book. ;)


So women car drive straight, but are in trouble when they need to negotiate turns? :D

[Azumanga Davo]

So women car drive straight, but are in trouble when they need to negotiate turns? :D

I bet you think it's all point and shoot. I beg to differ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2-d5yePIno

I know that the car featured is not Melanie nor Hillary Will, but trust me, they have had their share of keeping things under control for the win... ;)

[BDunnell]

Very interesting topic. :up:



I can actually only think of one woman to ever truly compete on the same level (Michelle Mouton) as male counterparts.

Well, Louise Aitken-Walker was more than a match for her team-mates in the 16-valve Group A Peugeot 205 GTi. She was absolutely brilliant in the forests on the 1987 RAC Rally, getting that car well into the top 10, far ahead of her team-mate Kalle Grundel and indeed in front of all the other front-drive cars, before retiring with accident damage.

But going back further, there are many more female competitors one might mention. Desire Wilson, for instance — there are those who believe she could have gone really well in the F1 world championship (of course, she did really well in the British F1 series) if she had been given more of a chance. She won some major sportscar races with Alain de Cadenet, who rates her as the best team-mate he ever had, and she's tremendously quick and aggressive in the Goodwood Revival today. Before her, we shouldn't forget Pat Moss and Anne Hall in rallying, both of whom were more than a match for the men of the day, and there were others in numerous formulae, such as Christabel Carlisle who was very quick on track in Minis. I discount the female racers at Brooklands before WW2, because they competed in women-only events there called things like the 'Ladies' Bracelet Handicap'.

It's interesting that the women who are generally considered to have been the best in motorsport were all in their prime 20 years ago or more. As for why few have come along since then, and none in rallying which used to see such excellent female competitors, I really couldn't say.