No loss of momentum...the Indy 500 PR juggernaut rolls on....

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Brian Williams will broadcast the NBC Nightly News program LIVE from the front straight at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway on May 23.

"Live from IMS: It's Brian Williams

"NBC Nightly News" will be broadcast live from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway on Friday when anchorman Brian Williams comes to town.

The Indianapolis NBC affiliate, WTHR (Channel 13), will host Williams at a luncheon that afternoon.

And here we thought Indiana was off the news map after the May primary.

Also, ESPN's morning sports show, "Mike & Mike in the Morning," is broadcasting from the Brickyard. The sh`ow can be heard on WFNI-AM (1070) from 6 to 10 a.m. Monday through Friday."

Indystar.com (May 21, 2008)

Also... McDonald's is now sponsoring the Pit Stop Competition taking over from long time sponsor Rally's.

USA Today has also consistently run at least one article about the Indy 500 every day this week.

[downtowndeco]

After just getting out of twelve years of the split that literally started because some team owners wanted to cut the month of May because because they didn't feel Indy was that important I find it hard to believe that some hear are saying it again.

Are you guys serious or do you just like to stir up ****? : )

[anthonyvop]

Are you guys serious or do you just like to stir up ****? : )
Totally serious.

The biggest race over the Memorial Day weekend will take place over 4 days.

[CARTDM15]

After just getting out of twelve years of the split that literally started because some team owners wanted to cut the month of May because because they didn't feel Indy was that important I find it hard to believe that some hear are saying it again.

Are you guys serious or do you just like to stir up ****? : )
One race don't make a series.You can jump up and down about the 500 but what about the other races.I don't care about the 500.I want a strong racing series

NBC, Mike & Mike can all be their but I bet they can't name any drivers outside of Danica & Helio.I know that wasn't the case 12 years ago

[gofastandwynn]

One race don't make a series.You can jump up and down about the 500 but what about the other races.I don't care about the 500.I want a strong racing series

NBC, Mike & Mike can all be their but I bet they can't name any drivers outside of Danica & Helio.I know that wasn't the case 12 years ago

You sure about that?

Lets look at all of the big stars that retired from 1990 - 1996;
Mario Andretti, Gary Bettenhausen, Emerson Fittipaldi, A. J. Foyt, Gordon Johncock, Rick Mears, Johnny Rutherford, Tom Sneva, Danny Sullivan, Al Unser.

21 Indy 500 wins between them all, and they were all gone with no one to replace them who won anything that mattered.

So who could the mass media name 12 years ago? Mikey Andretti & Little Al?

[ChicagocrewIRL]

It's amazing to me how people fail to see that the health of open wheel racing in America is forever tied to the health of the Indy 500. To the casual race fan, open wheel racing IS the Indy 500, not Long Beach, not Texas, not Milwaukee.

The Indy 500 is, was, and always will be the catalyst for open wheel racing in North America and that's a good thing.

I have always said... if CART/CCWS had the Indy 500 I would have been a CART/CCWS fan. I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment.

[nigelred5]

They just don't know what Indy means.......... ;)

[nigelred5]

One race don't make a series.You can jump up and down about the 500 but what about the other races.I don't care about the 500.I want a strong racing series

NBC, Mike & Mike can all be their but I bet they can't name any drivers outside of Danica & Helio.I know that wasn't the case 12 years ago



Well, you fail to see what has always and will always drive Open wheel racing in this country. It supported a lame series for over ten years, just as it's absence from the CART schedule led to it's demise. twice.

Take the Indy 500 out of the equation and absolutely NO ONE with as much as a nickle of sponsorship money to spend will care about open wheel racing in the US. There is no possibility of a strong open wheel series in this country without the 500.

[dataman1]

Take the Indy 500 out of the equation and absolutely NO ONE with as much as a nickle of sponsorship money to spend will care about open wheel racing in the US. There is no possibility of a strong open wheel series in this country without the 500.

I am/was as dedicated a CART/CCWS supporter as is possible but I agree with Nigel on this. All the new sponsorship announcements were made during the month of May, many just for the 500. The TV contract is for Indy first then all the others were negotiated in later. Honda would leave for sure without Indy as they use Indy internationaly in their advertising. I traveled with CART/CCWS everywhere they raced and to get most fans not already connected to a series to understand the differences during the split all I had to say was "we are guys that don't go to Indy" and most would understand.

That said, I still think INDY is very expensive for the teams that have a home base outside of Indy. Holding costs down for teams during the time of rebuilding will be important for good car counts outside of Indy. There is a conflict here in that the spokespeople say unification is great for growth (butts in the seats / increased revenue) yet the decision makers at Indy increase the costs for everything the teams need (greed / incresed revenue). They should use the increased revenue from ticket sales to decrease maybe even subsidize the costs for teams. There really needs to be an honest discussion between the ICS, the Indy 500 staff and the teams on how costs can be decreased during rebuilding.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Well, you fail to see what has always and will always drive Open wheel racing in this country. It supported a lame series for over ten years, just as it's absence from the CART schedule led to it's demise. twice.

Take the Indy 500 out of the equation and absolutely NO ONE with as much as a nickle of sponsorship money to spend will care about open wheel racing in the US. There is no possibility of a strong open wheel series in this country without the 500.

AMEN BROTHER !!!

[CARTDM15]

They just don't know what Indy means.......... ;)

Your right I don't know what it means.But I do know open wheel racing is about dead because one guy thought more of that race than the series.Thanks a lot, guy.

[CARTDM15]

It's amazing to me how people fail to see that the health of open wheel racing in America is forever tied to the health of the Indy 500. To the casual race fan, open wheel racing IS the Indy 500, not Long Beach, not Texas, not Milwaukee.

The Indy 500 is, was, and always will be the catalyst for open wheel racing in North America and that's a good thing.

I have always said... if CART/CCWS had the Indy 500 I would have been a CART/CCWS fan. I'm sure I'm not alone in that sentiment.
Thats fine if the 500 is all you care about.I love the series more than I love the 500.I can live without the 500 but not a good racing series.And what we have now is a bunch of races nobody cares about.Use the month of May to pub the series not just the 500.

If the Nascar stars decided to run Indy.It would see a big spike in the tv ratings and Indy would be huge but It would do nothing for the series.When Danica led a few laps.Everybody was talking about Indy.It got a big tv rating boast but the rest of the races rating stunk like always.

Tony got what he wanted and I guess you all are happy.Indy means everything again.He also got a series that needs major repair.Thats what I care about.

[downtowndeco]

Basically it sounds like you'd like to diminish how important Indy is compared to the other races by shortening the month of May & to completely change the formula to be more road course/street centric.

Good luck with that.


Thats fine if the 500 is all you care about.I love the series more than I love the 500.I can live without the 500 but not a good racing series.And what we have now is a bunch of races nobody cares about.Use the month of May to pub the series not just the 500.

If the Nascar stars decided to run Indy.It would see a big spike in the tv ratings and Indy would be huge but It would do nothing for the series.When Danica led a few laps.Everybody was talking about Indy.It got a big tv rating boast but the rest of the races rating stunk like always.

Tony got what he wanted and I guess you all are happy.Indy means everything again.He also got a series that needs major repair.Thats what I care about.

[tbyars]

Your right I don't know what it means.But I do know open wheel racing is about dead....

That needs a GREAT BIG "IMO" behind it. And more power to you if that mistaken opinion is what you believe.

But, frankly, a crowd of about 300,000 and many millions of people watching on TV this weekend will prove you to be wrong.

Again.

And about 100,000 folks at TMS will also prove you wrong in about two weeks.

Again.

I'm afraid with the end of the split, so also is the end of the days where "if I say it enough times, people will accept it as true."

[garyshell]

I am/was as dedicated a CART/CCWS supporter as is possible but I agree with Nigel on this.

Count me in on this as well. Nigel hit the nail on the head.

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

Tony got what he wanted and I guess you all are happy.Indy means everything again.He also got a series that needs major repair.Thats what I care about.

Name one Open Wheel Race that capture the amount of attention that Indianapolis got. Go back to 1911. I have and there was NOT ONE.

For years CART accepted the name INDY CARS, notice these cars were not called LONG BEACH CARS or PORTLAND CARS. They were named for what? A non-important race in May.

Does it need repair, yes but a 20 year cancer is tough to overcome and this series started to get sick over 20 years ago but that would be news to some.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[garyshell]

Your right I don't know what it means.But I do know open wheel racing is about dead because one guy thought more of that race than the series.Thanks a lot, guy.


Then you don't understand the business model that drives open wheel racing in the US. Sponsors foot the bills, period. And Madison Ave. in New York controls that aspect. Those folks on Madison Ave. when asked about open wheel racing have a myopic view that centers on 16th and Georgetown. Without that race on your schedule Madison ave has damn near zero interest. With a fractured fan base they also had very little interest. Now that the split is behind us, (well at least for SOME of us) there is renewed interest from Madison Ave. There are already ideas being floated about the beer companies getting back in the game!

Gary

[garyshell]

Name one Open Wheel Race that capture the amount of attention that Indianapolis got. Go back to 1911. I have and there was NOT ONE.

For years CART accepted the name INDY CARS, notice these cars were not called LONG BEACH CARS or PORTLAND CARS. They were named for what? A non-important race in May.

Does it need repair, yes but a 20 year cancer is tough to overcome and this series started to get sick over 20 years ago but that would be news to some.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

Absoloutely correct! The only open wheel race that even comes close would be Monaco if, and only if ,you widen the scope to include the attention of the entire world. If you limit this statement to US attention alone, then nothing even begins to hold a candle not even Monaco.

Gary

[dataman1]

Absoloutely correct! The only open wheel race that even comes close would be Monaco if, and only if ,you widen the scope to include the attention of the entire world. If you limit this statement to US attention alone, then nothing even begins to hold a candle not even Monaco.

Gary

Right on brother! If you go to Australia during the Surfer's event you will see so much coverage and fan involvement it makes the Indy of today look weak but once you step outside of Oz, nobody heard a thing. Same went for the first year CCWS went to Mexico City. Huge crowd and media coverage. The town was electric. Back in the USA, nothing.

Go to Europe, Oz or Mexico next Monday and you will find coverage about Indy. I believe that it the point being made.

Have a beer and enjoy the race. TGIF

[anthonyvop]

Name one Open Wheel Race that capture the amount of attention that Indianapolis got. Go back to 1911. I have and there was NOT ONE.
24 Hours of LeMans
and
Grand Prix of Monaco
Italian Grand Prix
British Grand Prix
French Grand Prix
German Grand Prix
......ect.
Shall I continue?




Does it need repair, yes but a 20 year cancer is tough to overcome and this series started to get sick over 20 years ago but that would be news to some.

Agreed but to hitch all of your horses to a wagon that has been on downward spiral just for the sake of Tradition is silly!

[anthonyvop]

Go to Europe, Oz or Mexico next Monday and you will find coverage about Indy. I believe that it the point being made.

It will be a small article after the Larger story of the Monaco Grand Prix.

[!!WALDO!!]

It will be a small article after the Larger story of the Monaco Grand Prix.

I always think of Graham Hill after he won Indy. He won $156,297 and the most he won at "the biggest race and most important race in the World" was $3500.00, yes 3 thousand, 5 hundred dollars.

Not my words but his.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[Scheckterfan54]

Personally, I am sick of AOWR trying to become a more popular around the world. I dont give a **** what a paper in prague says about the 500, I care what a paper in a small american town says because at the end of the day, the only way the ICS is going to continue to gain popularity is to show the average american fan that this series is a lot of fun and is the best racing product in the world. Sure, maybe there may be only a small article in newspapers overseas about the 500, but it is likewise about monaco here in the U.S..

[Miatanut]

Name one Open Wheel Race that capture the amount of attention that Indianapolis got. Go back to 1911. I have and there was NOT ONE.

A door big enough to drive a semi through and several have already gone through, but I'll drive mine, too.

Monaco.

Indy with be the third place race this weekend for TV viewers. Even though Charlotte has fewer seats, they will probably have more ticket revenue.

To the only person with control over this, it was more important to be the biggest fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond.

Very sad for the sport. :(

[!!WALDO!!]

A door big enough to drive a semi through and several have already gone through, but I'll drive mine, too.

Monaco.

Indy with be the third place race this weekend for TV viewers. Even though Charlotte has fewer seats, they will probably have more ticket revenue.

To the only person with control over this, it was more important to be the biggest fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond.

Very sad for the sport. :(

This was about American Open Wheel racing. Graham Hill pretty much shot that down with his own words.

This is about AWOR. Still interesting, Denis Hulme, 1967 World Champion flying back for 1:20 to qualify for a little race over here and to fly back to your big race in 1968.
If you statement is true then Denis would have stayed in Monaco.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[Bob Riebe]

Your right I don't know what it means.But I do know open wheel racing is about dead because one guy thought more of that race than the series.Thanks a lot, guy.
If open wheel cars, besides sprint cars, truly meant anythng in the US, the SCCA Formula A/5000 series would never have died.
It was the ONLY open wheel road racing series at the time it died and it still DIED.

Open wheel racing in the US means two things, Indianapolis 500 and sprint cars, period.

Bob

[!!WALDO!!]

If open wheel cars, besides sprint cars, truly meant anythng in the US, the SCCA Formula A/5000 series would never have died.
It was the ONLY open wheel road racing series at the time it died and it still DIED.

Open wheel racing in the US means two things, Indianapolis 500 and sprint cars, period.

Bob

Very true!! Winged or Non-Winged?

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[dataman1]

Open wheel racing in the US means two things, Indianapolis 500 and sprint cars, period.

Bob

IMO Might have to add midgets in there also. I would guess there are more midget racers in the US than the other 2 combined because it is more affordable and local racing.

[FormerFF]

A door big enough to drive a semi through and several have already gone through, but I'll drive mine, too.

Monaco.

Indy with be the third place race this weekend for TV viewers. Even though Charlotte has fewer seats, they will probably have more ticket revenue.

To the only person with control over this, it was more important to be the biggest fish in a small pond than a small fish in a big pond.

Very sad for the sport. :(


I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the 500 will edge out the Charlotte NASCAR race in TV ratings. As far as Monaco goes, F1 is the world sport and any F1 race will have more worldwide fan interest than any race in a national series. Same thing with World Cup vs the Super Bowl. The whole world watches World Cup, whereas the Super Bowl is mostly of interest to Americans.

[Miatanut]

This was about American Open Wheel racing. Graham Hill pretty much shot that down with his own words.

This is about AWOR. Still interesting, Denis Hulme, 1967 World Champion flying back for 1:20 to qualify for a little race over here and to fly back to your big race in 1968.
If you statement is true then Denis would have stayed in Monaco.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

Yes, for about a five year period, there were F1 guys skipping Monaco to come to Indy to clean up with their superior rear-engine cars in fields full of Watson Roadsters (and knock-offs). Big purses can do that. F1 guys would also run CanAm events for the big purses. Once the roadsters were gone and with them the easy pickings, Indy became something ex-F1 guys did, but not guys in contention for the championship.

[!!WALDO!!]

Yes, for about a five year period, there were F1 guys skipping Monaco to come to Indy to clean up with their superior rear-engine cars in fields full of Watson Roadsters (and knock-offs). Big purses can do that. F1 guys would also run CanAm events for the big purses. Once the roadsters were gone and with them the easy pickings, Indy became something ex-F1 guys did, but not guys in contention for the championship.

Clean up? In 1965, 5 roadsters, 1966 one roadster and 1967 zero roadsters.

Yes, Clark won in 1965 and Hill in 1966. In 1970 only Jack Brabham and Peter Revson were in the 500.

The money was here, Innes Ireland at Daytona in 1967 and Jimmy Clark at Rockingham, NC in 1967 in NASCAR or is that news.

Glory outside the U.S. here glory and cash.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[CARTDM15]

Then you don't understand the business model that drives open wheel racing in the US. Sponsors foot the bills, period. And Madison Ave. in New York controls that aspect. Those folks on Madison Ave. when asked about open wheel racing have a myopic view that centers on 16th and Georgetown. Without that race on your schedule Madison ave has damn near zero interest. With a fractured fan base they also had very little interest. Now that the split is behind us, (well at least for SOME of us) there is renewed interest from Madison Ave. There are already ideas being floated about the beer companies getting back in the game!

Gary
I don't understand the business model that drives open wheel racing.I know even with Indy Tony George had to spend millions, of his own money, to keep the series going.Even thought Indy is the greatest thing in the world.

The split is behind us but not the fractured fan base.The fan base is all but gone and the 500 alone isn't going to bring it back.I would say a great racing series will bring it back but Americans care to much about "fluff" than driver talent (Danica Patrick).The only thing INdy has created in the last 12 years and she didn't even win.

I'm saying the 500 alone want bring back the series.New cars and new venues will bring the series back not the same old same old.12 years of the 500 didn't grow the IRL.

[Miatanut]

Clean up? In 1965, 5 roadsters, 1966 one roadster and 1967 zero roadsters.

Yes, Clark won in 1965 and Hill in 1966. In 1970 only Jack Brabham and Peter Revson were in the 500.

The money was here, Innes Ireland at Daytona in 1967 and Jimmy Clark at Rockingham, NC in 1967 in NASCAR or is that news.

Glory outside the U.S. here glory and cash.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

I was counting from '63 and, yes, the first couple tries started but didn't finish well.

Agreed. The purses were better in the US.

[BenRoethig]

It will be a small article after the Larger story of the Monaco Grand Prix.

Monaco will get the same treatment here. They like F1. Great, that's their choice. We have different traditions. Just because Europe likes something doesn't mean we have to or vice versa.

[!!WALDO!!]

I was counting from '63 and, yes, the first couple tries started but didn't finish well.

Agreed. The purses were better in the US.

Yes in 1963 you had Clark and Gurney in Lotus 29 and Duane Carter Sr. in a Mickey Thompson Chevy (Dave MacDonald's car of 1964) and Al "Krulac" Miller in the 1962 Thompson Buick and the 9th fastest time of the month on day 4.

Clark, Gurney and Miller finished 500 miles in the top 10.
In 1964, Rodger Ward in the 1964 Watson/Ford was the only car in the top ten with an engine in the rear or top 12 for that matter. (Points paying)

In 1967, Monaco was so early that Lorenzo Bandini who was entered at Indy died in the race without coming over. Hill the 66 winner had difficultly qualifying and Stewart was bumped on the third only to have to qualify back in. Chris Amon and Pedro Rodriguez went home.

It wasn't as easy as you think it was. They struggled just like anyone to make the race. Making the race with their split was more than they could make in F-1.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[Bob Riebe]

Yes in 1963 you had Clark and Gurney in Lotus 29 and Duane Carter Sr. in a Mickey Thompson Chevy (Dave MacDonald's car of 1964) and Al "Krulac" Miller in the 1962 Thompson Buick and the 9th fastest time of the month on day 4.

Clark, Gurney and Miller finished 500 miles in the top 10.
In 1964, Rodger Ward in the 1964 Watson/Ford was the only car in the top ten with an engine in the rear or top 12 for that matter. (Points paying)

In 1967, Monaco was so early that Lorenzo Bandini who was entered at Indy died in the race without coming over. Hill the 66 winner had difficultly qualifying and Stewart was bumped on the third only to have to qualify back in. Chris Amon and Pedro Rodriguez went home.

It wasn't as easy as you think it was. They struggled just like anyone to make the race. Making the race with their split was more than they could make in F-1.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)
Ah Al Miller, the gent who it is said, had he not had an older small tank Lotus, would have easily won rather than finish fourth.
Without the time of his extra pit-stop, he would have cruised home in first.
Too bad.
Bob

[CARTDM15]

1.1 rating for Bump day 0.9 for pole day.Numerours blank side pods.What momentum? Looks like the same old same old.The month of May is no longer a big deal.The race maybe but not the whole month.

[tbyars]

New cars and new venues will bring the series back not the same old same old.

Worked REAL WELL for CCWS and the DP-01, didn't it?

Your problem is that YOU want to try the same old things that have driven two series into bankruptcy. I would submit to you that EVERYTHING TG did is far superior with far superior results. One thing is certain...CART and CCWS are gone because they failed. The 92nd running of the Indy 500 is scheduled for this Sunday, and I have absolutely no doubt there will be a 93rd next year, a 94th year after that, a 95th year after that.....

If you were going to invest significant money, in retrospect, what would have been the wisest investment - CART/CCWS or the IRL?

I think you are right. You DON'T understand the business model. You also don't seem to grasp the drawbacks of the business model that is a proven non-starter, twice over.

[dataman1]

Just because Europe likes something doesn't mean we have to or vice versa.

You know what? I think he has something here. Lets all get on a few ships and go someplace to start a new country. We'll show them! Ha Ha

[SarahFan]

anyone suggesting for even a second that AOWR, May and/or the 500 hasn't taken a step backwards over the debacle that was the past decade plus is delusional


does that change my appreciation for the size of the cajones of 33+ racers who strap in on race weekend or the long hours and hard work of the teams that support them or the dollars the manufactures and sponsors put forward so I can enjoy my beloved speed sport....absolutly not!

[Miatanut]

Worked REAL WELL for CCWS and the DP-01, didn't it?

Your problem is that YOU want to try the same old things that have driven two series into bankruptcy. I would submit to you that EVERYTHING TG did is far superior with far superior results. One thing is certain...CART and CCWS are gone because they failed. The 92nd running of the Indy 500 is scheduled for this Sunday, and I have absolutely no doubt there will be a 93rd next year, a 94th year after that, a 95th year after that.....

If you were going to invest significant money, in retrospect, what would have been the wisest investment - CART/CCWS or the IRL?

I think you are right. You DON'T understand the business model. You also don't seem to grasp the drawbacks of the business model that is a proven non-starter, twice over.

Perhaps the unsuccessfulness of CART is a matter of perspective.

1991:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1991.htm
You could power your car with:
Cosworth DFX
or
Cosworth FS
or
Ilmor "Chevy"
or
Alfa
or
Judd
or Buick

For chassis you could run a:
Lola
or
Penske
or
Truesports (yes, somebody other than Penske or Gurney would still make their own car)

'94:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1994.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Ilmor C
Ilmor D

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard

Half the races that season, outside of the month of May, they sent teams home on Saturday. Too many teams for the pit space or space on track, indicating a lot of teams felt it was the place to be.

'96:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1996.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Cosworth XD
Ilmor "Mercedes"
Honda
Toyota

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard
Eagle

From a motorhead perspective, it's hard to see CART as less successful than what we have now.

If CART was unsuccessful, I hope the future brings more of the sort of unsuccessfulness that CART had.

[Jag_Warrior]

If you were going to invest significant money, in retrospect, what would have been the wisest investment - CART/CCWS or the IRL?

No disrespect meant toward you, but the saddest thing whenever I read through piss & moan threads like this... people continue to think of the world only as chocolate vs. vanilla. A wise investment is not choosing the one which doesn't fail, but choosing one which succeeds. Would I buy GM or Ford? Uh... neither. I own Toyota and Hyundai ADR's. I believe in trends. So if I was pressed to invest significant money in an auto racing enterprise, which series would I choose, CART/CCWS or the IRL? Again, neither. I'd have chosen NASCAR. In fact, I did, in a way... when I bought stock in ISC and SMI a decade ago - but I'm not a 24/7/365 NASCAR fan. If the IRL had been a public company, I would have shorted it, just as I shorted MPH in its last two years of life. I made a few bucks on CART on the way up, but I made a lot more on the way down. But that didn't affect my appreciation for CART's style of racing. Why do people choose investments based on emotion? I don't know, but it seldom works out for them.

Though it's not where it once was, the Indy 500 was, is and may continue to be the most watched open wheel race in the U.S. But sponsors aren't restricted to open wheel racing, rather it's a broad universe of sponsorship possibilities. Prior to the split, the Indy 500 was in the Top 10 in the Forbes rankings of Global Event Values. The Daytona 500 was not in the Top 10. By 2007, Indy had dropped out of the Top 10 and Daytona was at #4. Based on ratings decreases and event ranking decreases, I think my IRL short would have worked out pretty well too... though maybe not as well as the one on CART/MPH. For the past decade AOWR has looked like that TV show called The Biggest Loser... is second place in that contest anything to really brag about?

[Jag_Warrior]

If CART was unsuccessful, I hope the future brings more of the sort of unsuccessfulness that CART had.

It'll take years to climb back to that level of "unsuccessfulness", if it ever happens.

Businesses that are truly broken do need to be restructured. Businesses that have general, basic problems usually implement continuous improvement initiatives - they don't set off bombs on every floor. 20/40 hindsight says that the situation between CART and IMS needed a kick of continuous improvement, not a total restructuring. But fixing what isn't really broken is what some people do. And God bless 'em. The France family and Bernie Ecclestone are thankful. I'm sure Bernie's girls aren't cheap to buy Xmas presents for.

The sure fire way to tell if you made the right or wrong choice: if what you end up with, after doing either, is worse than what you had before, ya definly gots it wrong. Or as a pal of mine used to say after a major executive FUBAR: "how's that workin' for ya?" :dozey:

[ShiftingGears]

Actually had some coverage of the IndyCars on primetime news last night!

[nigelred5]

Perhaps the unsuccessfulness of CART is a matter of perspective.

1991:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1991.htm
You could power your car with:
Cosworth DFX
or
Cosworth FS
or
Ilmor "Chevy"
or
Alfa
or
Judd
or Buick

For chassis you could run a:
Lola
or
Penske
or
Truesports (yes, somebody other than Penske or Gurney would still make their own car)

'94:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1994.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Ilmor C
Ilmor D

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard

Half the races that season, outside of the month of May, they sent teams home on Saturday. Too many teams for the pit space or space on track, indicating a lot of teams felt it was the place to be.

'96:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1996.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Cosworth XD
Ilmor "Mercedes"
Honda
Toyota

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard
Eagle

From a motorhead perspective, it's hard to see CART as less successful than what we have now.

If CART was unsuccessful, I hope the future brings more of the sort of unsuccessfulness that CART had.


And exactly what happened to all of that once INDY was removed from the picture????? Anyone? Bueller?, anyone?

[Miatanut]

And exactly what happened to all of that once INDY was removed from the picture????? Anyone? Bueller?, anyone?

Exactly what happened to Indy when Indy was removed from the CART schedule? Is the glass half full or half empty?

The thing was growing like gangbusters until it was formally split in two.

The big questions are, now that it is reunited, will it again follow the trajectory in increase in fans, teams, sponsorship, etc. that it followed from '79 to '95?
Will we see a schedule full of healthy venues or full of struggling venues in service to a single venue?
Will the sport be run for everyone in the sport or will it be run for the benefit of a chosen few?
Would Il Leone have come here to race if the environment was like we have currently?

I think we know the answers to those questions. I would love to be surprised.

[garyshell]

I would submit to you that EVERYTHING TG did is far superior with far superior results. One thing is certain...CART and CCWS are gone because they failed.

Well, the bit about "EVERYTHING" is a bit of hyperbole, don't you think? I believe even "king" George in his own words admitted that there were some missteps along the way. And while CART did declare bankruptcy, which by any measure is certainly a failure, technically CCWS was purchased by the IRL which COULD leave the concept of failure open to interpretation. Clearly, I am quibbling semantics with that. CCWS was most assuredly not a success, but if the investors intent was to build it into something they could sell, then maybe in their eyes it was not a "failure".

Gary

[CARTDM15]

Worked REAL WELL for CCWS and the DP-01, didn't it?

Your problem is that YOU want to try the same old things that have driven two series into bankruptcy. I would submit to you that EVERYTHING TG did is far superior with far superior results. One thing is certain...CART and CCWS are gone because they failed. The 92nd running of the Indy 500 is scheduled for this Sunday, and I have absolutely no doubt there will be a 93rd next year, a 94th year after that, a 95th year after that.....

If you were going to invest significant money, in retrospect, what would have been the wisest investment - CART/CCWS or the IRL?

I think you are right. You DON'T understand the business model. You also don't seem to grasp the drawbacks of the business model that is a proven non-starter, twice over.
What has the Irl done so great in 12 years? I can tell you what it has done.Bring open wheel racing to its knees.

[tbyars]

What has the Irl done so great in 12 years?

Survived.

[SarahFan]

Survived.

I'm not sure whether I should laugh or cry

[BenRoethig]

Survived.

By finally learning to adapt. Champ Car kept moving closer to the European model and hoped that fans who had shown no interest at all would finally pay attention. Never happened.

[Bob Riebe]

What has the Irl done so great in 12 years? I can tell you what it has done.Bring open wheel racing to its knees.
As another poster said all it really did do was survive and that is because it has the 500.
As far as rules go, the IRL cut-off its nose to spite its face, for all practical purposes.
The current optimistic rhetoric about open wheel racing, is really because it has replaced all the: you ****, no you ****, no you *****-- rhetoric which died with CC--that has been more prevelant than either series was.

If Mr. George thinks he can stick with some quasi-spec rules crap simply because the 100th anniversary of Indy will get press, he is a moron, but remember this is the gent who crapped on his own "vision."

[markabilly]

What has the Irl done so great in 12 years? I can tell you what it has done.Bring open wheel racing to its knees.
well it had Danica stomping around like she was wanting to engage in some serious fighting, like a real pro wrestling champ

Too bad, it did not happen, cause it would have been fun stuff for sure.
Too bad it was not some other female driver involved!! Could have been a real hair puliing cat fight
MEOW

:D

[Miatanut]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the 500 will edge out the Charlotte NASCAR race in TV ratings.
Limbs can be dangerous places.
http://sportsmediawatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/indy-tops-box-office.html

Update: NASCAR did end up winning the ratings battle with the Indy 500. The Coca Cola 600 drew a 4.7 final rating (up 7% from the 4.4 overnight) while the Indy 500 finished with a 4.5 (down 12% from the 5.1 overnight).
Would this be the case if there were never a split?
Can the sport still be fixed (in our lifetimes)?

[AussieV8]

IMHO the main reason CART failed was because of mismanagement in the late 90's that pi$$ed off the manufacturers to the point where they jumped to the IRL and took most of the top teams with them.

Until that point, the IRL was irrelevant apart from the Indy 500. Tony George simply new that he wanted control, which he didn't get with CART running the series so he created his own, much the same way as a spoilt child behaves.

The IRL of the late 90's had several ex backmarker teams from CART plus some new teams, with Z grade "stars" such as Billy Boat and Eddie Cheever. Compared to this, CART had some of the top teams in American motorsports with much higher quality drivers such as Jimmy Vasser, Paul Tracy, Alex Zanardi, Juan Montoya, Bobby Rahal, Michael Andretti, Dario Franchitti, etc...

If you look at the Indy 500 in 2000, 2001 where some top CART teams "raided" it, they literally blew away the competition in the IRL. In 2002, Penske (who had jumped ship that year) won it from Team Green (who were full time CART at that point) in a very close finish.

I think this speaks volumes for the level of competition in the IRL at that point for the regulars. Panther Racing is one exception. If it wasn't for them in 2002, Penske would have had a much easier time of it.

After CART lost the big name teams, the momentum swung to the IRL and quickly went bankrupt (only to be ressurrected in a foolhardy move by the "three amigos"). However, along the way many of the smaller teams in the IRL dropped out (or in the case of Conquest, jumped the other way to CART). From that point I think it was pretty obvious that the IRL would eventually win.

However, this "victory" is not through anything that Tony George has done IMHO. When the big name teams came in with the support of their big name manufacturers (Toyota and Honda), they started to exert their obvious influence on the league to remake it into the type of series they preferred racing in.

Fast foward to 2007 and the IRL looked much more like the CART of the mid to late 90's than the significantly weaker CCWS. I was a big CART fan of the late 90's, but I didn't even watch most races in the 2007 season, simply because I didn't care anymore. I'm guessing that many other people felt the same way and ultimately (and for the good of the sport), CCWS was folded up, leaving the IRL as the only top level open wheel series in North America.

So where does this leave us now. Yes the IRL IndyCar series is on an upswing, but it's only just coming off life support IMHO. Yes there is momentum, but there is still a long way to go. I won't really say that IndyCar is back to full strength until there is more than one competitive chassis manufacturer and more than one engine manufacturer.

[Bob Riebe]

Limbs can be dangerous places.
http://sportsmediawatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/indy-tops-box-office.html

Would this be the case if there were never a split?
Can the sport still be fixed (in our lifetimes)?This is only the case because NASCAR for all practical purposes, has its own network.

NASCAR is losing viewership and attendance, even with its own network, but that makes the rating for Indy even better.

[Bob Riebe]

The IRL of the late 90's had several ex backmarker teams from CART plus some new teams, with Z grade "stars" such as Billy Boat and Eddie Cheever. Compared to this, CART had some of the top teams in American motorsports From that point I think it was pretty obvious that the IRL would eventually win.

THat is only if one holds a myoptic opinion.
CART did not have better drivers, CART had big buck teams.

Any semi-compentent driver can win when the drivers team outspends the competition ten to one.

[anthonyvop]

So much for momentum

http://sportsmediawatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/indy-tops-box-office.html

NASCAR did end up winning the ratings battle with the Indy 500. The Coca Cola 600 drew a 4.7 final rating (up 7% from the 4.4 overnight) while the Indy 500 finished with a 4.5 (down 12% from the 5.1 overnight).

[anthonyvop]

NASCAR is losing viewership and attendance, even with its own network, but that makes the rating for Indy even better.

The NASCAR ratings slide stopped.
NASCAR has been posting ratings gains at every race so far this year.

[garyshell]

The IRL of the late 90's had several ex backmarker teams from CART plus some new teams, with Z grade "stars" such as Billy Boat and Eddie Cheever. Compared to this, CART had some of the top teams in American motorsports with much higher quality drivers such as Jimmy Vasser, Paul Tracy, Alex Zanardi, Juan Montoya, Bobby Rahal, Michael Andretti, Dario Franchitti, etc...



THat is only if one holds a myoptic opinion.
CART did not have better drivers, CART had big buck teams.

Any semi-compentent driver can win when the drivers team outspends the competition ten to one.


In the context of the list of CART drivers that was part of the message that you didn't include in your quote (and I am including above for clarity), can you with a straight face really say that those drivers were not better than what the IRL offered at the time? None on that list would fall into the "semi-competent" classification.

Gary

[fugariracing]

The crowd in attendance at Indy seemed bigger than in previous yrs as opposed to seeing it on TV - turn three didn't have as many fans dressed in aluminum.

Compare the ratings/buzz/time put into Indy vs. any other race on the schedule, and its history, and it far surpasses anything else out there. By default, mainly. Ratings for CC's 14 races last year COMBINED barely equal Indy's mark. It is still the biggest race and will continue to be.

The only reason the pundits/media people are saying the series is on the upswing is because it is literally starting from rock bottom. It couldn't go any lower. As much as people gloat about the influx of talented Champ Car drivers/teams, fact is there are still ride-buyers out there.

It's not the best drivers, there's still hacks like the IRL has always had and CC had in recent years since CCWS took over the CART assets. Viso replaced Doornbos b/c of cash. Philippe has no seat because he wants to be paid. Only reason Camara is in a seat is because the check cleared to bounce Perera. Marty Roth? Fine as an owner but needs to get out of the cockpit.

The buzz at Indy may have been back but there's still a ways to go.

[Bob Riebe]

In the context of the list of CART drivers that was part of the message that you didn't include in your quote (and I am including above for clarity), can you with a straight face really say that those drivers were not better than what the IRL offered at the time? None on that list would fall into the "semi-competent" classification.

Gary
Had the IRL drivers driven for the mega buck teams I have zero doubt they would have performed quite well.
Had the above drivers driven for the low buck teams they would have done no better than the ones that had to.
It is well know that by the time CART came into existence talent played second fiddle to the sponsor bank roll a driver could bring to any team.

[Bob Riebe]

The NASCAR ratings slide stopped.
NASCAR has been posting ratings gains at every race so far this year.
Time will tell. THe season is only four months old.
Of course then maybe the NASCAR network has gone into overdrive to reduce losses.

[Bob Riebe]

So much for momentum

http://sportsmediawatch.blogspot.com/2008/05/indy-tops-box-office.html

NASCAR did end up winning the ratings battle with the Indy 500. The Coca Cola 600 drew a 4.7 final rating (up 7% from the 4.4 overnight) while the Indy 500 finished with a 4.5 (down 12% from the 5.1 overnight).
THis so called momentum is something some dreamer made-up.
The press, in all its ignorance, acted as if by magic that this so called merger was going to bring back the glory days of Foyt, Unser, Andretti, Rutherford, Sneva etc., with the same magic a magician uses to pull a rabbit out of a hat.
Of course that magic is as much a scam as this so called momentum is.

Until there are rules that make open wheel racing more than a high buck SCCA spec. race, it is same dung, same pile.
There are plenty of sprint car tracks around the country which have just as much talent and a far more exciting show, not to mention more variation of equipment.

Bob
PS--ON a positive note, our paper yesterday had an article about INDY, with Patrick and Fisher, and pretty much called Patrick the prima-donna she is, and said Fisher is from a racing family and has a racers heart.

[garyshell]

It is well know that by the time CART came into existence talent played second fiddle to the sponsor bank roll a driver could bring to any team.


Well known by whom? When CART came into existence the business model was Sponsor --> Team Owner --> Driver
not Sponsor --> Driver --> Team Owner.

Or are you saying that the team owners decision on which driver to hire was influenced by what the sponsor might think of the driver. If that is what you meant, I agree. However if you are saying it was up to the driver to go find the sponsor and bring them to the table, I don't think that started to occur until well after CART came into existence.

Gary

[-Helix-]

Perhaps the unsuccessfulness of CART is a matter of perspective.

1991:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1991.htm
You could power your car with:
Cosworth DFX
or
Cosworth FS
or
Ilmor "Chevy"
or
Alfa
or
Judd
or Buick

For chassis you could run a:
Lola
or
Penske
or
Truesports (yes, somebody other than Penske or Gurney would still make their own car)

'94:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1994.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Ilmor C
Ilmor D

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard

Half the races that season, outside of the month of May, they sent teams home on Saturday. Too many teams for the pit space or space on track, indicating a lot of teams felt it was the place to be.

'96:
http://www.champcarstats.com/year/1996.htm

Engines:
Cosworth XB
Cosworth XD
Ilmor "Mercedes"
Honda
Toyota

Chassis:
Lola
Penske
Reynard
Eagle

From a motorhead perspective, it's hard to see CART as less successful than what we have now.

If CART was unsuccessful, I hope the future brings more of the sort of unsuccessfulness that CART had.

You kind of disproved your own point with this post.

Sure, CART was great when it had the INDY 500 and for a few years after the split when it still had all the top teams and drivers.

But what eventually happened to CART again WITHOUT Indy?

Bankruptcy.

CART was successful for a while until it tried to survive without the one thing AOWR needs to survive. Then it became unsuccessful and will forever be remembered for being unsuccessful because of it.

[inthemarbles]

They just don't know what Indy means.......... ;)

I got it, Nigel...good one!

[Bob Riebe]

Well known by whom? When CART came into existence the business model was Sponsor --> Team Owner --> Driver
not Sponsor --> Driver --> Team Owner.

Or are you saying that the team owners decision on which driver to hire was influenced by what the sponsor might think of the driver. If that is what you meant, I agree. However if you are saying it was up to the driver to go find the sponsor and bring them to the table, I don't think that started to occur until well after CART came into existence.

Gary
By the eighties, many drivers had sponsors WITH THEM, or had quick access to one, IF they got the ride.
Straight talent getting a ride petered out in the seventies, with and actually before the death of USAC--sadly.
The Parsons, Vukovich, and other members of what racing rags called the "'missing generation" of drivers, had talent, but the old guard did not retire and by the time the old guard did finally start to hang it up,(some forced out not for lessening talent, but the money behind the newbies was more important than the talent of the Rutherfords and Unsers) the team owners were lookin for daddy war-bucks foreign drivers that came with sponsors, talent was optional.
The "'missing generation" got rides where they could but even with some high finishes or rare victories, always were pretty much stuck with grade B rides, at best.

[Miatanut]

You kind of disproved your own point with this post.

Sure, CART was great when it had the INDY 500 and for a few years after the split when it still had all the top teams and drivers.

But what eventually happened to CART again WITHOUT Indy?

Bankruptcy.

CART was successful for a while until it tried to survive without the one thing AOWR needs to survive. Then it became unsuccessful and will forever be remembered for being unsuccessful because of it.

The bankruptcy happened after Penske jumped ship. Had the CART champion not jumped ship, the split would have ended years before it did, with a quite different result.

In any case, now that we are back to a single series, can we now expect to see the sport follow to follow the sort of trajectory of growth CART had in its first ten years?

The main part of my point is that we now have a single engine manufacturer, a single tire, a single chassis. Maybe the CART model was pretty good. No?

[Bob Riebe]

In any case, now that we are back to a single series, can we now expect to see the sport follow to follow the sort of trajectory of growth CART had in its first ten years?

No-because for CART's first ten years it merely inherited the ascending state of open wheel racing, and most rules, that USAC had nurtured in the seventies, including road racing that USAC had already resumed.
Bob

[Miatanut]

No-because for CART's first ten years it merely inherited the ascending state of open wheel racing, and most rules, that USAC had nurtured in the seventies, including road racing that USAC had already resumed.
Bob
I don't think there were any road races from '71 to '76. One in '77. On pressure from road racers in the group, there were three on the schedule in '78. Kind of hard to establish a trend there. Then CART did a maximum of three a year until '83.

USAC's influence graced CART for ten whole years?

Considering it was in the '90's that CART really took off, maybe that wasn't such a good thing.

[Bob Riebe]

I don't think there were any road races from '71 to '76. One in '77. On pressure from road racers in the group, there were three on the schedule in '78. Kind of hard to establish a trend there. Then CART did a maximum of three a year until '83.

USAC's influence graced CART for ten whole years?

Considering it was in the '90's that CART really took off, maybe that wasn't such a good thing.
CART took off in the late-eighteis and early-nineties because SCCA and IMSA road racing which, in various forms, had dominated US racing scene for approximately twenty years, began to self-destruct.

Stock car racing series, except for NASCAR, had had done the same thing so, the two biggest items left was Indy and CART, plus NASCAR.

[Jag_Warrior]

Really? Refresh my memory. Which drivers brought the following title sponsors for various teams in CART? - Marlboro. Mobil 1, Pennzoil, Valvoline, Domino's Pizza, Machinist's Union, Toyota, Quaker State, etc.

Edit: Also forgot to add Budweiser and Miller Light.

Target, Kmart, Service Merchandise, Visteon, Kool, Shell, Texaco, McDonalds...

Owners have often had (personal) connections to corporate sponsors. And the more money they put in the kitty, the more influence they may have on the team owner to hire one driver over another. But like you, I don't know anything about any driver having any sort of special relationship with the sponsors that either of us named. At least in the primary car, top teams hired for speed in 1979 and they're hiring for speed in 2008.

Here's one thing that I think is being left out: if the commercial value is there, sponsors step up... if it's not there, they don't. Backmarkers, ridebuyers and Richie Rich wannabe racers have always been on the scene. Whether today or thirty years ago, other than a major decline in popularity and ratings, I don't see what's different in AOWR.

[CARTDM15]

Momentum lost......TV ratings for Milwaukee .8 on ABC.Thats pretty sad.The 500 can't help the rest of the series.

[Wilf]

Momentum lost......TV ratings for Milwaukee .8 on ABC.Thats pretty sad.The 500 can't help the rest of the series.


That does it. The sport is officially dead!!!!

[CARTDM15]

[quote="Wilf"]That does it. The sport is officially dead!!!![/QUOTE
Not the sport just the series.Indy is alive and well.How can we improve interest in the rest of the series? The 500 alone want do it.

[Wilf]

That does it. The sport is officially dead!!!![/QUOTE
Not the sport just the series.Indy is alive and well.How can we improve interest in the rest of the series? The 500 alone want do it.

The IRL has to move from battle mode of the last 12 years to battle mode of the next ten years. Unfortunately, they went from battle mode to coast mode. They have become sloppy in execution in everything from media bull pens during qualifying to the actual broadcast of the race.

Look at the telecasts of the last two weeks. There is no continuity from going to break to resumption after the break. Their packages aren't sync'ed and yet they continue to air.

Yesterday it is purported to be a live, albeit, late broadcast. But they fully intended to tape delay the race, starting at 9:30 instead of the advertised 10:00. It got further complicated when NASCAR ran long. They either forgot all the webcasts started at 9:30 as well as the Canadian broadcast so they were really sloppy or unbelieveably arrogant believing no one would notice. Unfortunately, ESPN really complicated the problem by runing the tape delayed video under live audio. Oops.

You don't grow viewership by airing amateur telecasts and you don't get the respect of the media by letting certain elites walk all over you.

The battle for success will take at least ten years and every day they coast will lessen their chance for success

[SOD]

AMEN BROTHER !!!

Too bad the sport had to be destoryed to prove you correct.

better luck next time.