Failed Experiment Succeeds?

[Wilf]

Many times we have read that TG should fold the Indy Pro Series as a failed experiment as a feeder series because it has failed to produce any successful drivers.

I found it interesting to note that in it's seventh season of operation there are nine graduates of the Firestone Indy Lights in the field for this year's Indianapolis 500: Marco Andretti, Jaime Camara, Ed Carpenter, A.J. Foyt IV, Alex Lloyd, Hideki Mutoh, Graham Rahal, Marty Roth, and Jeff Simmons.

Maybe there is something to the theory of learning how to drive a high powered rear engined car on an oval by first driving a not so high powered rear engined car on an oval.

[BobGarage]

I think calling Graham Rahal a graduate of the IPS/Indy Lights series is stretching it a bit. He raced in one race on the road course at Indy.

Rahal went from star mazda to atlantics to champ car.

[Mark]

You can't count drivers related to existing drivers as they have their parents to push them forward. The idea of a feeder series is to find previously unknown talents.

[Civic]

How well have the graduates (those with at least one full season) done overall in the series? Mark Taylor? Quattro? Carpenter?

I'm wondering if a successful driving style in an IPS car isn't the ideal style for an IndyCar.

Similar theories were suggested for Indy Lights. Atlantics were said to be natural precursors for Champ Cars because driving styles and car setups and car behavior were very similar to Champ Cars while Indy Lights were "top heavy" (I think it was Dixon who said the Lights was completely different from a Champ Car). With that said, I wonder how similar in performance/behavior the Lights Lola was to the F3000 Lola. (someone told me they share the same basic tub)

[BobGarage]

I'm wondering if a successful driving style in an IPS car isn't the ideal style for an IndyCar.

Jaime Camara has said as much in the build up to the 500. I can;t remember if it was in one of the videos on indycar.com or on abc/espns coverage, but he basically said "I could do things in the IPS car to gain speed that would put me in the wall in the Indy Car."

[BenRoethig]

Well, an Indy lights car is more or less a modified version of the Indycar Dallara with half the power. Because of that its going to be much more forgiving.

[Chamoo]

I expect that when the formula changes in a year and a half (hopefully) for the ICS, the formula will change as well for the IP Series. I also think you'll see the merger of both the Indy Lights and Atlantics before then. Atlantics will mostlikely adopt a formula close to the IRL, yet different, to keep in line with the system.

[Miatanut]

Atlantics will mostlikely adopt a formula close to the IRL, yet different, to keep in line with the system.

Considering Mazda's emphasis is in road racing, why would they do that?

[Wilf]

Considering Mazda's emphasis is in road racing, why would they do that?

How much tv exposure is the Atlantics series receiving this year?

[Mad_Hatter]

Not too much probably. But to honestly type that implies that you believe it'll remain that way and that the unification had nothing to do with it. Regardless, apparently it's enough to keep Cooper Tires and Mazda along for the year.

[Wilf]

Not too much probably. But to honestly type that implies that you believe it'll remain that way and that the unification had nothing to do with it. Regardless, apparently it's enough to keep Cooper Tires and Mazda along for the year.

My question asked how much television coverage Atlantics had this year.

The unasked question is, how long will Mazda and Cooper remain without television. They are honoring their contract this year and that is commendable. If it makes sense for them to continue, they will do so. Maybe they can talk some network into providing coverage, but in todays environment it's hard to believe that will happen.

That is why Mazda, if they remain, would "most likely adopt a formula close to the IRL." Regardless of anyone's view of how good the cars are or how exciting the racing is, it won't succeed as a professional feeder series without television.

[Mad_Hatter]

Sort of like Formula BMW?

I haven't seen them on tv in years. I don't believe Mazda races for the tv exposure alone. Have you ever seen their racing commercial?

"No wonder more people road race mazdas than any other car."

Why would a road racing driven company push the atlantics to a more oval weighted schedule?

[!!WALDO!!]

You can't count drivers related to existing drivers as they have their parents to push them forward. The idea of a feeder series is to find previously unknown talents.


This was the theory of Tony George. Problem was the IRL followed Jeff Gordon where step dad got him in a position to go to the top. After that 100s of Son/Father started down that same path in Midgets. Soon, old timers were moving out of the way as they were getting out spent and then some of the Son/Fathers ran out of ability and money thus ending their effort. The loser was these ladder series as no money, no moving.

Talent should rise to the top but since Jeff everyone assumes you throw enough money at it you will get to the top. Since only one is paying money now is NASCAR that is the target.

Tom Sneva in late 1974 got a call from Roger Penske, "How would you like to drive for me next year for $40,000?"
"But Roger, I do not have $40,000."

This world requires checks to get you up the ladder.

[nigelred5]

Well, it's pretty much a given that the upcoming schedules will be much less oval weighted. It hasn't been unusual for atlantics to run fewer races and races at tracks where the main series did not, even as an official ladder series. Why couldn't it continue to operate in that fashion. Being a feeder series doesn't mean the cars must run at all of the same events.

I proposed just such a schedule for Atlantics in another thread. They can continue to run at places like Trois Rivieres, NJMSP, possibly even in events with ALMS apart from the main Indycar series. Then, run all of the street and road course events and only the small ovals like Richmond and Milwaukee. Real diverse training for developing drivers. Young drivers get a taste of ovals, then the Lights is a true step up in HP and track size. Drivers get their first taste of the big 1.5 and 2+ mile ovals in higher HP cars.

The key is the cars need to be similar . The original lights in CART had little in common with Atlantics or the Indycars

[!!WALDO!!]

Well, it's pretty much a given that the upcoming schedules will be much less oval weighted. It hasn't been unusual for atlantics to run fewer races and races at tracks where the main series did not, even as an official ladder series. Why couldn't it continue to operate in that fashion. Being a feeder series doesn't mean the cars must run at all of the same events.

I proposed just such a schedule for Atlantics in another thread. They can continue to run at places like Trois Rivieres, NJMSP, possibly even in events with ALMS apart from the main Indycar series. Then, run all of the street and road course events and only the small ovals like Richmond and Milwaukee. Real diverse training for developing drivers. Young drivers get a taste of ovals, then the Lights is a true step up in HP and track size. Drivers get their first taste of the big 1.5 and 2+ mile ovals in higher HP cars.

The key is the cars need to be similar . The original lights in CART had little in common with Atlantics or the Indycars

Nice post but the Atlantics are running for World of Outlaw purses and almost 20% of a cheap Indy Car program.

I know that here it is now the only connection to the past by Gerry Forsythe is paying the bills and the Atlantics do not make revenue to offset the lay out of hard cash.

We know Gerry's history so you can kiss it good bye unless Don Panoz buys it and he is already looking to sell out to Grand-Am.

Pictures are changing and by this time next year Atlantic could very well be gone.

[Miatanut]

My question asked how much television coverage Atlantics had this year.

The unasked question is, how long will Mazda and Cooper remain without television. They are honoring their contract this year and that is commendable. If it makes sense for them to continue, they will do so. Maybe they can talk some network into providing coverage, but in todays environment it's hard to believe that will happen.

That is why Mazda, if they remain, would "most likely adopt a formula close to the IRL." Regardless of anyone's view of how good the cars are or how exciting the racing is, it won't succeed as a professional feeder series without television.

How much TV exposure does Star Mazda have this year? Or last year? Or the year before? How much TV exposure does Spec. Miata have this year? Or last year? Or the year before?

They're in it for exposure in front of the hard core gearheads (like me) who buy tickets and sit (even in the rain) for the races and qualifying of the ladder series. Who spend money playing around with sportscars.

Given a little time to plan ahead, I would expect Atlantic to follow ALMS around. With Star Mazda and in some places Spec. Miata. Drilling their point home.

[gofastandwynn]

IIRC, a few years ago there was a overhaul of the IPS/IndyLights car. They changes the wings & underbody, went from 1 front spring to 2, and changed the engine build from Menard to Speedway, all to get the handling close to the Indy Car. So it would be more fair to judge on more recent results.

In other news, Firestone introduced a new "Firehawk Cup" Indy Lights trophy which will have the names of all Indy lights champions (cart era 1991-2001, IPS 2002-2007).

They also announced the continuation of the "Greg Moore Legacy Award".


The Greg Moore Legacy Award is a continuation of the honor begun in CART/Champ Car following the Canadian star's death in 1999. Moore was the Firestone Indy Lights champion in 1995 before moving up to CART in '96 and winning five races in four seasons. The award will retain the same criteria - it's given to a driver who most typifies Moore's distinctive combination of outstanding on-track talent and dynamic personality - and will be presented to sychos Firestone Indy Lights driver at the conclusion of the season.

Wait, the CC hate crew said all TG wanted to do was trash CC and it's history....

[nigelred5]

Not all of them ;) , though It seems they the IRL are more than happy to embrace a lot of the CART/Indycar history. The Champcar history, maybe not so much ;)

Personally, That blend of history kinda makes sense to me. There's a lot of the early IRL history during the very successful CART years many would just as soon forget, just as there's plenty of reasons I'd just as soon forget a lot about the Champcar years. Embrace the good, learn from the bad and then hide that crap in a dumpster some where.

[Wilf]

Sort of like Formula BMW?

I haven't seen them on tv in years. I don't believe Mazda races for the tv exposure alone. Have you ever seen their racing commercial?

"No wonder more people road race mazdas than any other car."

Why would a road racing driven company push the atlantics to a more oval weighted schedule?

This is a quote from MAZDASPEED History:

"By this time, it was clear that a disproportionate number of Mazdas were appearing and winning in small owner-driver sports car events all over the world, and that this was where Mazda truly belonged and should focus its competitive efforts."

There is a significant difference between racing versions of their production vehicles and racing a chassis of another manufacturer with their engine and sponsoring that series, The costs are significantly higher on the manufacturer and they generally look for some return on their investment.

In addition, when it costs $750,000 or more to have a minimally succcesful team, it helps to have television exposure to help you obtain a team sponsor to reduce your out of pocket expense.

I don't want to see the series disappear, but without television it is going to be a hard row to hoe,