back markers

[touring guy]

hi everybody,

is it me or does it seem that the same drivers are always at the back of the field in the btcc races.i am not knocking them for competing but what do the likes of bell,doyle,taylor,erkut get out of the series apart from telling people they are touring car drivers.even in qualifying they struggle with times.

just my observation......

[LiamM]

Everyone you have just named there are on tight budgets and are in old out-dated machinery, hence for their participation at the back. Each team will have their own goals, but im sure they all want to the best BTC-Spec racers (bar the Jordans)

[Robinho]

if i had the money i'd be right out there with them, and in all probablility, much as i would love to rate my ability the reality is i'd be running round at the back with them, but as long as you've got someone to race with then i'd be happy just to be competing. as their budgets are inevitabley tight they can't afford the best cars and in all honesty, some of the guys aren't professional racing drivers, but guys who want to race cars at the highest level possible - fair play to them, the sport needs their sort, IMO it makes it much more accessable to the fans to have teams and drivers like Bell, Erkut, Taylor, George, Hughes etc

[cazvxr]

Having just spent the weekend working alongside Mickey and his fantastic team i would just like to say that these "back markers" work their n**s off to get the car out.Everyone mucks in and works hard even Mickey gets his hands dirty.They work on very tight budgets as Big sponsors are hard to find and keep hold of,when Mickey finished 15th on the 1st race the grin on Mickeys Dads face said it all.Most people do not see what goes on behind the scenes,how much work and prepairation goes in even before the car gets onto the track.You will always have "back markers"-thats racing!

[RED VXR]

Having recieved a phone call late Thursday evening via Nick Leason (NJL racing) I had the pleasure of working for Michael Doyles team In-Tune Racing. Michael is a fantastic guy with a great attude towards his racing. Hes got total backing from his dad, a very good engineer Wayne and a great technician Ash. I had a great weekends racing not quiet going to plan in race 2 but the race 1 result proved that theres a star in the making, and if called upon again i will be there again to help in any way poss to get michael out on circuit and see his dad smile. If anyone had wandered past the pit garage they would of seen a team not just racing, but there enjoying themselves which in my opion is what its all about. If it wasent for teams like In-Tune Racing and NJL Racing the BTCC wouldnt be what it is.

[nik]

It's called an enthusiast, and enjoying racing in the sport they love.

Simple.

[racer69]

If everyone who didn't win didn't bother you'd barely have more than 10 cars on the grid....

[SEATFreak]

It's called an enthusiast, and enjoying racing in the sport they love.

Simple.

I think that might be, altleast in part, driving teams to want to buy cars and want to go racing. Enthusiasm and love.

I think they realise with the money they have for operating they won't win the Independents trophy anytime soon but they know that atleast they have a car for their money that enables them to race in the pinacle of racing in this country. The BTCC.

Might certainly Motorbase Performance (BTCC & Porche Carrera GT), Team Eurotech (BTCC & British GT) and Robertshaw Racing (BTCC & Clio Cup)possibly be showing that enthusiam, again atleast in some small way, by competing in more than one championships?

[Mark]

It shows that it's not all about winning and those private teams are what the BTCC is all about and has always been about IMO, the manufacturers come and go but it's the independants who give the series its depth.

Yes, they are not competing for wins but they have their own goals which for some may be just to take part, as that is difficult enough in itself!

It's the same in the likes of F1, when Super Aguri scored a single world championship point it was like they'd won the world championship to them.

[Les]

how can I match anything that has been said before.
That's why I go all round the country watching these guys race. The look on their faces after a good race result beats the pants off Giovanardi or Plato winning the championship. Seeing any one of them on the podium would have me in tears because I know how much hard work they have put into getting their cars out on track.
To see Mickey upset because a stupid piece of cardboard has ruined his weekend and maybe his season when VX or Seat or Halford just swap engines at the drop of a hat. To know that VX will probably strip those cars back to the bare shell and rebuild them by Croft whereas Mickey and his dad will clean and prepare theirs after work.
To me you could remove the whole of the front of the grid and just bring out my mates at the back or better still get them some more sponsors so that they get decent cars, full time staff and they will be at the front.

[tyreman2]

hi everybody,

is it me or does it seem that the same drivers are always at the back of the field in the btcc races.i am not knocking them for competing but what do the likes of bell,doyle,taylor,erkut get out of the series apart from telling people they are touring car drivers.even in qualifying they struggle with times.

just my observation......

I think you are doing Doyle an injustice putting him with Bell, Erkut and Taylor
Doyle has a lot of potential to improve and certainly would move up the field with some financial backing.Whereas the others will always be towards the rear of the field.......somebody has to be!

[MBailey06]

Infact, I believe Doyle had a strong race 1 and finished right behind Collard in 15th I think? And his pace looked quite competitive in comparison to Collard, so I think Doyle could spring a few surprises this year.

[SEATFreak]

I think you are doing Doyle an injustice putting him with Bell, Erkut and Taylor

Doyle has beaten Taylor every time the two have finished but with the Arkas drivers it has been hitty-missy.

At Brands Hatch Doyle did not get out for race 1 but in the last two races which saw Bell and Kizilirmak trade places, Doyle finsihed behind them in 18th in race 2 but ahead of them in 15th.

At Rockingham in races 1 & 2 again Bell and Kizilirmak trade places but in the one race Doyle did finish (race 1) his 20th was two places behind Bell's 18th and three behind Kizilirmaks 17th.

At Donny Doyle finished in 15th; one place behind Bell but one ahead of Kizilirmak.

And again, at Thruxton, he only started and finished race 1 but was higher than the Arkas drivers. Finishing 15th to Bell's 17th and Kizilirmaks 22nd.


Infact, I believe Doyle had a strong race 1 and finished right behind Collard in 15th I think? And his pace looked quite competitive in comparison to Collard, so I think Doyle could spring a few surprises this year.

Doyle finished 15th and Collard was 13th.

[VkmSpouge]

I think you are doing Doyle an injustice putting him with Bell, Erkut and Taylor

I see your point but in terms of pace this season so far it isn't an injustice, it is accurate. However Doyle's pace probably has more to do with the car, stick him in Taylor's Integra and I think he'd be up in the midfield with the likes Vaulkhard and the Motorbase cars.

[Phil H]

Having raced with Micky, I can safely say he is a top line driver with a very bright future. His Dad and their whole team have been very good to me in the past and I wish them all the best. Keep up the good work lads!

[Les]

why stick him in the Integra?
If he had managed to get in some testing so that he qualified in the right position and had participated in all 3 races he would have been top 10. That car is/was that quick.
Looking at the sector times a perfect lap would have seen Kane in 12th followed by jordan, jelley, doyle, howell, collard!!
Over the finish line he was faster than Giovanardi!!
He would have had Collard but for the the incorrect blue flags being shown so he was forced to back off and let through Sheds

[VkmSpouge]

why stick him in the Integra?

Because the Integra is a better car than the Civic.

[racer69]

What happened to 'touring guy'?

[SEATFreak]

I see your point but in terms of pace this season so far it isn't an injustice, it is accurate. However Doyle's pace probably has more to do with the car, stick him in Taylor's Integra and I think he'd be up in the midfield with the likes Vaulkhard and the Motorbase cars.

It is all relative really for me. Some cars which are better than others aren't as good as others and basically I think that can aid the assendancy or decline of a drivers form.

I think if you were to see In-Tune buy Doyle a 320si he would probably be up with the likes of Vaulkhard and the Motorbase drivers (Collard and Kane) but I think he could probably beat them more often than if he were in the Integra. Because yes the Integra is better than the Civic but the BMW 320si is better than the Integra I think.

Though having said that, such is the variety of teams that can compete in the BTCC I don't think you can compare cars by fellow models either. You cannot compare one 320si to another. You could not compare Doyles's IN-Tune beemer to other teams that run the 320si like say Team RAC's or BMW Dealer Team UK because both teams are very good Independent teams who have proven how competitive they have turned their 320si's.

[Les]

true - that is what is good about the BTCC - good drivers getting the best out of not so good cars and visa versa. What would happen if Mickey was to be put in Jelley's car and visa versa?
A big part of continuing well though is the team and that where a professional team like RAC beats INTune hammer and nail.

[SEATFreak]

true - that is what is good about the BTCC - good drivers getting the best out of not so good cars and visa versa. What would happen if Mickey was to be put in Jelley's car and visa versa?

That is the $64m question. I know your question may be been just a rhetorical one, but I think if your question asks what would happen if two drivers traded cars, it would come down to individual talent.

If you can establish who has the better natural talent (in this case Steven and Mikey) then you have your answers.


A big part of continuing well though is the team and that where a professional team like RAC beats INTune hammer and nail.

Exactly. I feel we never really talk enough about the contribution by the leading Independents like Team Air Cool, Team Eurotech and WSR. Without their effort we wouldn't have the strength we do in the BTCC because they culdn't continue.

[Andy Neate]

true - that is what is good about the BTCC - good drivers getting the best out of not so good cars and visa versa. What would happen if Mickey was to be put in Jelley's car and visa versa?
A big part of continuing well though is the team and that where a professional team like RAC beats INTune hammer and nail.

Whilst I will not comment on how Mickey Doyle would perform if put in Stephen's car IMO Mickey Doyle has been the find of the season. Quite honestly and I'm not bias cause I dont know the young lad, but with the resource and the car he has to be consistantly quick as he has been and too out-pace the likes of Bell,Erkut,Taylor and a few others that I could mention in their far superior & better prepared machinery is a fantastic achievement!

I'm all for the backmarkers to make up the grid, OK... Les wil kill me for saying (as some of them are her friends as am I..) if you put a chunk of the backmarkers in with 888 they would still be a backmarker but thats what makes the beauty of the BTCC.... Everyones love the underdog.... I hope Mickey gets a top opportunity one day because as with so many others we could all mention he deserves a shot and I'm sure he would not disappoint.

[Les]

oh no doubt some will still be at the back even with a 888 car under them but they will have the biggest grin on their faces and be loving every minute.

I suppose that is one thing I love about the BTCC at the mo - we get some surprises with the reverse grid

[reidy_fan]

Whilst I will not comment on how Mickey Doyle would perform if put in Stephen's car IMO Mickey Doyle has been the find of the season. Quite honestly and I'm not bias cause I dont know the young lad, but with the resource and the car he has to be consistantly quick as he has been and too out-pace the likes of Bell,Erkut,Taylor and a few others that I could mention in their far superior & better prepared machinery is a fantastic achievement!

I'm all for the backmarkers to make up the grid, OK... Les wil kill me for saying (as some of them are her friends as am I..) if you put a chunk of the backmarkers in with 888 they would still be a backmarker but thats what makes the beauty of the BTCC.... Everyones love the underdog.... I hope Mickey gets a top opportunity one day because as with so many others we could all mention he deserves a shot and I'm sure he would not disappoint.

couldnt agree more Andy, the way he has taken to the car and been grinding out results has been great plus the boy is only 20 as well but he did serve his apprenticeship in Clios with good support in guys like Steven Hunter. Still say the Civic is a better car than the astra that Erkut and Bell have though

as I have said before for a wee country Scotland is punching well above its weight in motorsport, I wont mention ICR and a certain fiesta championship :-) who knows we might end up with a scottish DTM Champion this year

[SEATFreak]

oh no doubt some will still be at the back even with a 888 car under them but they will have the biggest grin on their faces and be loving every minute.

What makes you say that? How could any car engineered by 888 be at the back? They are an engineering team that are one of, if not thee, most succesful teams that touring car racing has ever seen who happen to engineer a car that is one, of if not thee, strongest, fastest and most competitive that touring cars has ever seen run. The fact their team are leading the Drivers, Teams and Manufacturers standings surely is testament to that. A 888 car could never be at the back. No matter who is running it.

That territory is usually reserved for the likes of Alan Taylor who is one driver who does seem to appear regularly at or near the back at the start.

[tyreman2]

couldnt agree more Andy, the way he has taken to the car and been grinding out results has been great plus the boy is only 20 as well but he did serve his apprenticeship in Clios with good support in guys like Steven Hunter. Still say the Civic is a better car than the astra that Erkut and Bell have though

as I have said before for a wee country Scotland is punching well above its weight in motorsport, I wont mention ICR and a certain fiesta championship :-) who knows we might end up with a scottish DTM Champion this year
It does. but Birmingham must be "BTCC town" at the moment

[Phil H]

What makes you say that? How could any car engineered by 888 be at the back? They are an engineering team that are one of, if not thee, most succesful teams that touring car racing has ever seen who happen to engineer a car that is one, of if not thee, strongest, fastest and most competitive that touring cars has ever seen run. The fact their team are leading the Drivers, Teams and Manufacturers standings surely is testament to that. A 888 car could never be at the back. No matter who is running it.

That territory is usually reserved for the likes of Alan Taylor who is one driver who does seem to appear regularly at or near the back at the start.

There not on about the quality of the engineering, but the out right pace of the driver!! Some of the drivers are out there to enjoy themselves. Fair play to them. I would love to, I may not be the quickest but if I could afford it I would do it.

[reidy_fan]

It does. but Birmingham must be "BTCC town" at the moment

very true mate, or bosteen as they say down that way

also re the backmarkers you will always have them it is the nature of the sport, one bloke that has impressed me is Jason Hughes he is getting that old mg running well, fact is that there is so little in terms of performance gap all the way down the grid it is the tightest I have seen for a while and re mickey, if you were to throw megabucks at that car it still probably wouldnt be top 10. okay the techspeed astras are better prepped but that car still wasnt great even with yvan and fab driving it plus with S2000 the cars have moved on a bit

[SEATFreak]

There not on about the quality of the engineering, but the out right pace of the driver!! Some of the drivers are out there to enjoy themselves. Fair play to them. I would love to, I may not be the quickest but if I could afford it I would do it.

I know! You think I don't know that?!

Can you remember what I said in closing in the first paragraph?

[tyreman2]

What makes you say that? How could any car engineered by 888 be at the back? They are an engineering team that are one of, if not thee, most succesful teams that touring car racing has ever seen who happen to engineer a car that is one, of if not thee, strongest, fastest and most competitive that touring cars has ever seen run. The fact their team are leading the Drivers, Teams and Manufacturers standings surely is testament to that. A 888 car could never be at the back. No matter who is running it.

That territory is usually reserved for the likes of Alan Taylor who is one driver who does seem to appear regularly at or near the back at the start.

Two of the cars usually at the back ARE 888 built cars,It is just a fact of life that some drivers are quicker than others whatever they drive.And some drivers no matter how good the cars will not show much improvement in this very competetive field.Just look at the BMW drivers situation there are now 5 of them,they are not all going to be in the top 10,and Collard is probably going to be the slowest of them,but that doesn't mean he is not a very good driver.I say lets be gratefull that it's so competetive at the front,and lets thank those who give it their all for a place somewhere round about 18th

[Brown, Jon Brow]

When Erkut competed in selected rounds in 2006 in the Astra VXR he was still near the back even though he had the same machinery as Giovanardi, Chilton and Smith who were front runners.

[Dave B]

I'm torn. Part of me wants to criticise those who run at the back and never seem to improve, but then again if you gave me £100K I know exactly what I'd be doing next year!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I'm torn. Part of me wants to criticise those who run at the back and never seem to improve, but then again if you gave me £100K I know exactly what I'd be doing next year!

Me too!!!

[reidy_fan]

I'm torn. Part of me wants to criticise those who run at the back and never seem to improve, but then again if you gave me £100K I know exactly what I'd be doing next year!

give it to someone like Jonny Adam that could do far more with it than me

[SEATFreak]

Two of the cars usually at the back ARE 888 built cars,It is just a fact of life that some drivers are quicker than others whatever they drive. And some drivers no matter how good the cars will not show much improvement in this very competetive field.Just look at the BMW drivers situation there are now 5 of them,they are not all going to be in the top 10,and Collard is probably going to be the slowest of them,but that doesn't mean he is not a very good driver.I say lets be gratefull that it's so competetive at the front,and lets thank those who give it their all for a place somewhere round about 18th

The two 888 built cars being Arkas. Do 888 then still have a hand in running them or is it a case where they built them, and ran them for a time, but once Arkas bought them they were free to commence work on preparing them for sessions?

It is just when I look at how Bell and Kizilirmak are doing in terms of form on a race-by-race basis my logic comes to the conclussion that their form reflects more on Arkas than 888 because of a second conclusion that I come to that if the Astra Sport Hatches are still prepared and ran by 888 and on behalf of Arkas, would Martyn and Erkut still be performing as Martyn and Erkurt are currently doing in terms of form but be higher up in the pecking order because surely any car 888 prepares would be faster and more competitive than the car prepared by Arkas.

I don't know if that atleast appears to fly in the face of what you just said about drivers doing well whatever they drive and drivers doing badly no matter how good the car is, but I think what I am saying is you cannot just look at a drivers pace alone and that you have to also perhaps look at how they would do in the same car if it were prepared by a team more able to prepare a more competitive car.

And I agree that, in this case Erkut and Matyn, would still perform as badly or as well as they are doing now for Arkas in terms of form but a possible increase in pace due to the cars being prepared by a team able to prepare a more competitive car would or could put that overall form Erkut and Martytn further up the pecking order.

[SEATFreak]

.....Still though having looked at the stats for 2006 & 2007 would be interesting to find out on Saturday where Erkut qualifies for Croft considering he qualified there in is first BTCC race in 2006 down in 17th with a time of 1:29.296 and in 2007 for Arkas one place better in 16th and about one minute quicker with a 1:28.210.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

.....Still though having looked at the stats for 2006 & 2007 would be interesting to find out on Saturday where Erkut qualifies for Croft considering he qualified there in is first BTCC race in 2006 down in 17th with a time of 1:29.296 and in 2007 for Arkas one place better in 16th and about one minute quicker with a 1:28.210.

You mean one second faster! But that time difference doesn't mean anything as track conditions would be different from year to year, Erkut had gained more experience of the car and track, and maybe even the control tyre was slightly different?!?

[kmchow]

People can debate fairness, but perhaps the DTM practice of allowing older spec S2000 cars to run with lighter weight would make the races more tight. This way, smaller budget/new teams can finish 1st as well?

OTOH, would the smaller teams feel a 1st place was really a genuine win when they were allowed to runs ay 50kg lighter?

But one can also argue if that is also "fair" to the big budget teams?

[VX_Rules]

You say any 888 run car wouldnt run at the back, but i bet a 888 prepared Lada 110 might struggle to keep up.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

People can debate fairness, but perhaps the DTM practice of allowing older spec S2000 cars to run with lighter weight would make the races more tight. This way, smaller budget/new teams can finish 1st as well?

OTOH, would the smaller teams feel a 1st place was really a genuine win when they were allowed to runs ay 50kg lighter?

But one can also argue if that is also "fair" to the big budget teams?

Interesting idea but I don't think that the development of super2000 cars happens at the same rate as it did with Supertourers or does with DTM. It's not like the lap records are beaten every year. After all, the 888 Astra coupes dominated 4 years on the trot.

[Eurotech]

Why would you bother critisizing the mid-grid privateers because they are the ones who stop the BTCC becoming Formula 1 in the way the it becomes to expensive for a Privateer team like Super Aguri for instance to get enough funds to compete.

Just as i question, when Chris Stockton was running 7th at Croft last year, how many of you felt gutted for him after he went off?

If the BTCC got rid of those "Back-Markers" there would be no underdogs for the crowds to cheer on.

[CroftPilgrim]

Just as i question, when Chris Stockton was running 7th at Croft last year, how many of you felt gutted for him after he went off?



Or even Andrew Jordan at Thruxton last week?

[Eurotech]

True.

[cazvxr]

Touring Guy,just like to say,Micky Doyle,race 1, 9th place! What a star! Enough said.

[thetrooper_scot]

You say any 888 run car wouldnt run at the back, but i bet a 888 prepared Lada 110 might struggle to keep up.

Have you seen the new Ladaa touring car that is supposed to be entering the WTCC?

:) :) :)

[VX_Rules]

:P Thats why i said it, it's as aero dynamic as a breeze block, the Vectra looks sleek in comparison, and the Leon looks pretty in comparison! :D

[reidy_fan]

Touring Guy,just like to say,Micky Doyle,race 1, 9th place! What a star! Enough said.

he was holding his own in race 2 until the curse of tower caught him out. hope the damage wasnt too bad and can get out again. wouldnt blame him if he missed snett due to the travel but hope he is out at Knockhill. C'mon scottish business chuck Mickey a few quid

[Les]

he was holding his own in race 2 until the curse of tower caught him out. hope the damage wasnt too bad and can get out again. wouldnt blame him if he missed snett due to the travel but hope he is out at Knockhill. C'mon scottish business chuck Mickey a few quid


just to correct you but it wasn't the curse of tower - it was the many times repaired gear box that threw him off

[cazvxr]

Unfortunately the gears were once again the problem and Mickys Dad worked like a trooper to get him back out for race 3 but there just wasnt enough time.Still, Micky enjoyed the weekend and we, again ,enjoyed working alongside the guys.We were well chuffed with 9th.Micky has the capability to be up there.C,mon sponsors!