View Full Version : The speed differences between M1 & M2 teams ?
When JML transferred to Fords M1 team his speed improved massively.. What do you think are the main reasons for this? higher car spec, or the increased testing data and the experience that comes with it?
Its something that made me wonder how much faster Gigi could be..
I belive it's the testing that makes the biggest difference, also I belive Wilson is not holding him back so much.
jonkka
17th May 2008, 18:46
I think that factors that contribute are, in no particular order:
Testing: Driver is more familiar with the car for being able to rack up the miles in it plus he knows effect of different set-ups. Familiarity with the tyre options is no longer as important as it was in the past when number of tyre options was staggering.
Security: Having secured the works drive takes away a lot of the pressures that privateers have, though different kind of pressures step into picture.
Focus: Privateers must handle much wider tasks within their team than works driver do, who are able to concentrate solely on driving (minus PR work of course).
Equipment: No matter what Wilson says, there is difference between latest spec works Focus and B-Team's Focus which is used and has seen more miles. Just look how Kronos-run Xsara lost it's competitiveness overnight when Loeb moved back to Frequelin's team.
Its something that made me wonder how much faster Gigi could be..
Almost as fast as Latvala and for sure faster than Mikko :p :
Galli would have for sure been a works driver by now if he would not be so stupid, thats for sure, now maybe the age is already a problem.
Just look how Kronos-run Xsara lost it's competitiveness overnight when Loeb moved back to Frequelin's team.
Tuohinos interview in VM not long time ago gives much info about different teams policy.
Galli would have for sure been a works driver by now if he would not be so stupid, thats for sure, now maybe the age is already a problem.
Galli been stupid when ? :confused:
Well answered Jonka... I agree. I'd always believed the M1 & M2 teams (at least in Fords case) used the same hardware. For what reasons do you think only the M1 team would use the superior parts... to keep costs to a minimum ?
Pino- Id absolutely love to see Gigi beside JML. It would be very interesting to see how he'd compare.. He's a character for sure, has... well... had ! a flamboyant driving style and he'd make great PR for sure. The only thing not on his side for a full works drive is his age. The WRC needs characters like him, especially since Marcus has left the building.
If JML finishes the rally tomorow at his current pace with no accidents I think I'll be making some enquiries regarding odds for the WRDC next year.. very impresive driving today.
Galli been stupid when ? :confused:
If he would have finished rallies a few years back in good positions, he would propably now drive a works car, instead of that he flipped the cars while trying to show off, thats stupid.
jonkka
17th May 2008, 20:46
I'd always believed the M1 & M2 teams (at least in Fords case) used the same hardware. For what reasons do you think only the M1 team would use the superior parts... to keep costs to a minimum ?
For starters, rules forbid M2 teams from using parts that have been homologated this year. Having said that, one must bear in mind that homologations have been restricted so this might not have big effect every year (depending on homologations).
For security reasons, customer versions rarely exhibit anything that teams consider their competitive advantage, the most secret parts. Citroen is notorious of not letting their cars out of the factory, much like Mitsubishi did too - electing to scrap their winning machines rather than selling those.
Also, M1 teams always use new parts and replace everything on every service, using refurbished parts only when they must. This strategy got Mitsubishi and Makinen their out-of-the-box Safari win in 1996 and such success forced other teams to copy that tactics. Whereas cash-stricken M2 teams do what they can, having smaller stores and replacing parts on car far less often.
jonkka
17th May 2008, 20:48
Galli been stupid when ? :confused:
2001 Swedish Rally. He was caught doing extra recce and was excluded. Naughty boy.
If he would have finished rallies a few years back in good positions, he would propably now drive a works car, instead of that he flipped the cars while trying to show off, thats stupid.
Tomi...we all know Gigi made some mistakes but we also know that he never had a competitive and reliable car until now.When you don't have a competitive car you need to push 100% that's why he had many off. Anyway we have discussed this 1000 times before so I stop here ;)
urabus-denoS2000
17th May 2008, 22:28
Tomi...we all know Gigi made some mistakes but we also know that he never had a competitive and reliable car until now.When you don't have a competitive car you need to push 100% that's why he had many off. Anyway we have discussed this 1000 times before so I stop here ;)
100% agree
Tomi...we all know Gigi made some mistakes but we also know that he never had a competitive and reliable car until now.When you don't have a competitive car you need to push 100% that's why he had many off. Anyway we have discussed this 1000 times before so I stop here ;)
If everyone knows that he was not driving a competitive car, why not drive the best possible in that car, instead of not finishing, you dont need to win rallies in an uncompetitive car to get a works seat, only to do good results and finish.
Biggest differece is KM's spent in the car = testing. Rest of it comes from car
Explaining the increase of JMLs speed IMO is that the cars sold to privateers or private teams have been ”down tuned” a little. I think it would be quite embarrassing for a M1 team if a M2 finds a good driver that could beet the M1 teams drivers. Do they (M1 teams) take that risk?
Explaining the increase of JMLs speed IMO is that the cars sold to privateers or private teams have been ”down tuned” a little. I think it would be quite embarrassing for a M1 team if a M2 finds a good driver that could beet the M1 teams drivers. Do they (M1 teams) take that risk?
Im not sure the team would find it embarrasing although the drivers sure would.. I think all the extra event targeted testing, the extra knowledge/data and experience gleaned from it and also what Jonka says about homologation parts confined to the M1 teams each season are the real reasons rather than a deliberate de-tuning of customer cars.
koko0703
18th May 2008, 07:38
I think the biggest difference between M1 and M2 teams are the testing mileage. Not only the M1 team drivers get more testing time but also works drivers have a say in how the car should be developed. For example, Citroen C4 is developed in the way Loeb prefers instead of, say, Rautenbach's preference. On the other hand, the privateers basically gets what the car works team has developed, and it may or may not suit your driving style, but you still have to adopt to what you got in a fewer mileage. If you are lucky, the car is already close to your preference, but if your car isn't exactly what you've expected, you will struggle to set up the car in a very short time.
So in that sense, I think the M1 team drivers have advantage over M2 team drivers even if they have exactly same equipments.
Daniel
18th May 2008, 09:45
I agree with Tomi. If Gigi had just driven within his limits he wouldn't be in an m2 car now. I think the Chris Atkinson way of driving within his limits this year is the way to drive in a slower car. I think Chris would be a great driver in a Ford or Citroen.
I think the Chris Atkinson way of driving within his limits this year is the way to drive in a slower car. I think Chris would be a great driver in a Ford or Citroen.
True his is doing just fine, also I belive that the car is much more competitive than many thinks.
I agree with Tomi. If Gigi had just driven within his limits he wouldn't be in an m2 car now...
You're right he would've been at home in Livigno enjoying the weather and picking mushrooms in the Wood...
Daniel
18th May 2008, 16:52
You're right he would've been at home in Livigno enjoying the weather and picking mushrooms in the Wood...
But he'd be doing in the most spectacular way possible ;)
I really think Gigi would have had a proper works seat if he'd driven within his limits. Look at Akinson now. Look at how he's performing in that car. Even if as Tomi says it's a good car he's still performing well.
DuncanD
18th May 2008, 17:25
I'd rather have an M2 seat at Ford now than an M1 seat at Subaru though :-P
But he'd be doing in the most spectacular way possible ;)
Even if as Tomi says it's a good car he's still performing well.
Not so good as Citroen and Ford, but not so bad as one of their driver claims.
The Italian way to pick mushrooms is, first you pick then you hide the mushroome behind a tree, and then the picker forget what tree it was, in other words quite ordinary way ;)
Helstar
19th May 2008, 05:15
You're right he would've been at home in Livigno enjoying the weather and picking mushrooms in the Wood...
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif
It's clear, it came out of both testing and JML experience. That's how it happened
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