Max Mosley opens a can of worms.

[leopard]

How about those choosing neither of them, they can select nothing but to know how much people really care or not about this has the place to mention, being abstain probably including me.

Five voters as of now but no reasoning. They could want Max to go, but probably with different reason, such as it ruins reputation of F1, having five girls all at once is considered greedy, or because didn't share the girls :D

[Knock-on]

Going by your logics Bernie should have been the first to want mcLaren thrown out of F1 because they were giving "bad press for F1, the FIA, and bad news for his and FOM's finances".
However he did protect them against Mosley's wrath.

Bernie says he's Max's friend and so on, not even a week ago he was declaring war to Max! :rolleyes:

Bernie is the cancer of F1, even having a fortune of £ billions built on the back of F1 teams, some of them going out of business because lack of funds, isn't enough to the poisonous dwarf.

What Max was saying about the commercial rights negotiation with Bernie is the truth, and Bernie wants Max out in order to put one of his own men there to facilitate the terms of the new contract.

Max knows who set him up and his attitude towards Bernie suggests that the later might be involved in the sting.

I have no love of Max or Bernie but be very careful what you write, even on a forum.

Unless you have proof that Bernie was involved, it might cause ramifications for you and the owners of this forum by posting unfounded allergations against "der management"!

[ioan]

I have no love of Max or Bernie but be very careful what you write, even on a forum.

Unless you have proof that Bernie was involved, it might cause ramifications for you and the owners of this forum by posting unfounded allergations against "der management"!

What happened to the free speech everyone was protecting when it was about Martin Brundle's columns against Max Mosley :?: ;)

[ioan]

Though of course this is all just speculation. None of us here are experts!

I fully agree with this! :)

[ArrowsFA1]

What happened to the free speech everyone was protecting when it was about Martin Brundle's columns against Max Mosley :?: ;)
Max sued Martin.

[Knock-on]

What happened to the free speech everyone was protecting when it was about Martin Brundle's columns against Max Mosley :?: ;)

Free speech is one thing. I agree with free speech and was a little dissapointed with Pino when he tried to curb this subject initially although I understand his reasons. His reasons I would imagine involve people making spurious accusations against some very powerful people in this sport.

While we can post opinions on what transpires, it is illegal to make unfounded accusations, is libelous and can lead to you or the forum operators being sued.

Not an arguement but just basic facts. If you carry on, the thread will have to be closed.

[Bagwan]

Nobody got nervous about having the forum shut down when I mentioned that half-wit has money on Max staying .
Is it only Bernard we should worry about closing the forum down ?

[Dave B]

Let's see what members here wants (poll added) ;)

I vote "go". Not really a hard choice, as Max is now utterly incapable of doing the job he's being paid for.

However I've got a feeling that he'll survive the real vote :s

[Knock-on]

I vote "go". Not really a hard choice, as Max is now utterly incapable of doing the job he's being paid for.

However I've got a feeling that he'll survive the real vote :s

I don't think that the role is a paid one although I would imagine that it's a position that can provide significant benefits ;)

I think Max will do a Gordon Brown and offer a last ditch compromise similar to what has been proposed. It is a moot point anyway as it is just a vote of confidence and as such, he is not compelled to step down should he lose.

He has said that he will not stand past next October but that is a long time in this game :D

Will he win? Lets look at the members.

26 Africa of which South Africa is only significant
15 in NA of which NA and Canada are only significant
10 in South America where Brazil is only significant
2 in Oceana where NZ and Aus carry weight
36 in Asia where you have the likes of China, Russia and Japan
Then we have Europe which is the real power-base.

The federation members who have made a formal written stance against Max reads like a who’s-who of significant FIA members.


America (AAA and AATA),
Singapore (AAS),
Germany (ADAC),
Finland, (AL),
Canada (CAA),
Brazil (CCB),
Denmark (FDM),
France (FFA),
India (FIAA),
Japan (JAF),
the Netherlands (KNAC),
Sweden (M),
Hungary (MAK),
Israel (MEMSI),
Austria (OEMTC),
Spain (RACC and RACE),
Belgium (TCB)
Switzerland (TCS),
Russia.

There are others that have come out as well from the FIA and many senior members within sport such as Bernie, the Manufacturers etc.

If these people follow through, he doesn't have a hope in hell.

[ioan]

Free speech is one thing. I agree with free speech and was a little dissapointed with Pino when he tried to curb this subject initially although I understand his reasons. His reasons I would imagine involve people making spurious accusations against some very powerful people in this sport.

While we can post opinions on what transpires, it is illegal to make unfounded accusations, is libelous and can lead to you or the forum operators being sued.

Not an arguement but just basic facts. If you carry on, the thread will have to be closed.

Well if there is a chance for the site administrators to have problems than I agree that the mods erase my posts, cause even if it doesn't look like that I do like this forum!

[SGWilko]

Nobody got nervous about having the forum shut down when I mentioned that half-wit has money on Max staying .
Is it only Bernard we should worry about closing the forum down ?

Well, I think it is taken that you are merely re-iterating someone elses comment about the individual in question. Had you been making a statement about said individual actually being a half wit, you might come unstuck.

[Knock-on]

Well if there is a chance for the site administrators to have problems than I agree that the mods erase my posts, cause even if it doesn't look like that I do like this forum!

And I hope you appreciate that I wasn't having a dig at you but was offering some friendly advice.

Forums have fallen foul of the Law courts recently and we all need to be a little guarded in our "enthusiasm". :)

[ioan]

And I hope you appreciate that I wasn't having a dig at you but was offering some friendly advice.

I know you are not always having a dig at me. Sometimes you are even making sense. ;)

[Bagwan]

Well, I think it is taken that you are merely re-iterating someone elses comment about the individual in question. Had you been making a statement about said individual actually being a half wit, you might come unstuck.

Well , actually , I took a shot at all Scots , intimating they are cheap , and called a knight , half-wit .

Now , Sir Jackie isn't showing himself as such here , though .
He's got 100 quid on Max staying .

Mind you , he is on the suspect list in the hunt to find who is responsible for the sting .
Betting on the coup not working might look good in the witness box .

[SGWilko]

Well , actually , I took a shot at all Scots , intimating they are cheap , and called a knight , half-wit .
.

Oh, I see now, well done. ;)

[Knock-on]

Well , actually , I took a shot at all Scots , intimating they are cheap , and called a knight , half-wit .

Now , Sir Jackie isn't showing himself as such here , though .
He's got 100 quid on Max staying .

Mind you , he is on the suspect list in the hunt to find who is responsible for the sting .
Betting on the coup not working might look good in the witness box .

PML :laugh:

Trouble with you Baggy is that one can never tell when you are extracting the urine. :p :

[Bagwan]

Half-wit was called half-wit for his comments on the FIA conducting a "witch hunt" , which later found the witches for whom they hunted .
He says he doesn't want to sink to Max's level .

That witch hunt gives us some other suspects , perhaps farther up the likely list than Sir Jackie .


Hell , there's probably people on the forum here farther up the list than Sir Jackie , for the venom they spout for Max .

[Bagwan]

PML :laugh:

Trouble with you Baggy is that one can never tell when you are extracting the urine. :p :

Ah , Knocky , you know I'm always serious .

It's Maximus eve , and everyone is getting excited about finding wormy videos under the tree .
I can't wait !

[Knock-on]

Ah , Knocky , you know I'm always serious .

It's Maximus eve , and everyone is getting excited about finding wormy videos under the tree .
I can't wait !


More like "The Ides of Max"

[Valve Bounce]

I have no love of Max or Bernie but be very careful what you write, even on a forum.

Unless you have proof that Bernie was involved, it might cause ramifications for you and the owners of this forum by posting unfounded allergations against "der management"!

You know, I have been mulling over this very aspect. Some here, in their enthusiasm, have come straight out and labeled both Bernie and Max with insults which may sound good in the context of our love of F1, but may in fact be unfounded or difficult to prove at least.

Perhaps we all need think carefully before making such unfounded accusations. And I do not exclude myself from such insults either because I have been pretty worked up at some of the (apparently) stupid decisions made at the top.

[Azumanga Davo]

Will he win? Lets look at the members.

26 Africa of which South Africa is only significant
15 in NA of which NA and Canada are only significant
10 in South America where Brazil is only significant
2 in Oceana where NZ and Aus carry weight
36 in Asia where you have the likes of China, Russia and Japan
Then we have Europe which is the real power-base.

The federation members who have made a formal written stance against Max reads like a who’s-who of significant FIA members.


America (AAA and AATA),
Singapore (AAS),
Germany (ADAC),
Finland, (AL),
Canada (CAA),
Brazil (CCB),
Denmark (FDM),
France (FFA),
India (FIAA),
Japan (JAF),
the Netherlands (KNAC),
Sweden (M),
Hungary (MAK),
Israel (MEMSI),
Austria (OEMTC),
Spain (RACC and RACE),
Belgium (TCB)
Switzerland (TCS),
Russia.

That's pretty much the big names of national motorsports and road bodies of the world. If they don't want to deal with him, then how is he going to get any work done at all? Get him out of there.

I see CAMS isn't on that list. I think this is yet another decision they would rather not make as usual. They are crap at making the hard choices and have ruined a lot of good motorsport in Australia. Get onto it, CAMS.

[AndyRAC]

That's pretty much the big names of national motorsports and road bodies of the world. If they don't want to deal with him, then how is he going to get any work done at all? Get him out of there.

I see CAMS isn't on that list. I think this is yet another decision they would rather not make as usual. They are crap at making the hard choices and have ruined a lot of good motorsport in Australia. Get onto it, CAMS.

Similar over here to MSA, nearly as good as useless. But won't come out and say anything in case the British GP gets axed.

[Dave B]

I'm astonished that only 14 votes have been cast on this poll.

Today's the big day. And, sadly, I still think he'l survive. The verdict's due this afternoon.

[Ranger]

I see CAMS isn't on that list. I think this is yet another decision they would rather not make as usual. They are crap at making the hard choices and have ruined a lot of good motorsport in Australia. Get onto it, CAMS.

Yeh they had Colin Osbourne (CAMS president) on RPM a fortnight ago and they asked him about the vote ... I'm pretty sure he gave a non-committal answer about it.

More reading material:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67951


"The problem is, if he stays until 2009, he will run again," Ecclestone said. "I am 100 per cent certain about that; no, one million per cent certain. That's what he said. He says: 'I don't have to do anything. There'll be another election and I can stand if I want.'"

Ecclestone added that there were sections of F1 that wished Mosley to go because it would help the commercial side of the sport.

"It has been difficult for me," Ecclestone explained. "The people I deal with are commercial people, manufacturers, sponsors and teams. They want peace and they want to get on with the business and the sport. Max doesn't care - he's not commercial - he hasn't got one single dollar invested, so he doesn't give a stuff."

[SGWilko]

I'm astonished that only 14 votes have been cast on this poll.

Today's the big day. And, sadly, I still think he'l survive. The verdict's due this afternoon.

The voting system and philosophy in Eurovision is more reliable thatn that of the FIA....

.....probably :p :

[leopard]

I think it's more because crisis of trust, today people aren't easily convinced with someone, Max or whoever replace his seat.

In this case Todt might be person with some faithfulness, because he has had Michelle Yeoh :D

[pino]

I'm astonished that only 14 votes have been cast on this poll.



Me too :s

[SGWilko]

I'm astonished that only 14 votes have been cast on this poll.

Today's the big day. And, sadly, I still think he'l survive. The verdict's due this afternoon.

Perhaps not everyone has paid their dues? ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Today's the big day. And, sadly, I still think he'l survive. The verdict's due this afternoon.
I suspect you're right. One of the most noteable aspects of Max's spell as FIA President has been his ability to secure and retain the power he needs to pursue his agenda.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, we can look on the brighter side: if Max stays, Bernie is screwed. :p :

[Mickey T]

the issue for me is that max refuses to be judged by the same standards by which he has judged others. plus his handling of the FIA which is so praised by ioan and a few others.

he is upset about what he thinks is an intrusion into something that is nobody else's business. well, why did he get involved in the intra-team qualifying squabble in hungary last year when the stewards (judges of fact, in motorsport speak) didn't bother?

he is upset that someone has "set him up". did he or did he not enter the apartment voluntarily? yes? well, the only set up then was the leaking of the footage, ergo, the only thing he is sorry about in the whole episode was that he got caught. i have heard no regret that he was with the hookers and he engaged in his acts; just that it hurt his family and invaded his privacy.

cast your mind back to last year, when max justified his fining of mclaren by saying he was only interested in what the evidence showed, not how it was obtained or the legal niceties of it.

you can't have it both ways, old son, especially not when, cheating or not, maclaren didn't actually break any of the FIA's laws governing F1. Not one of them.

That's why the FIA needed to charge them with bringing the sport into disrepute, because as unpalatable and unethical as it might have been, spying on another team didn't breach any of the FIA's laws governing the sport.

Max, on the other hand, would seem to have broken the law by using prostitutes. voluntarily.

If max had headed any of the companies sponsoring any F1 team, he'd have been out the door in less than 24 hours.

that he wasn't is indicative of an arrogance that interferes with judgement at key times and that makes you wonder about a lot of previous FIA decisions.

if max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he really have sold the F1 rights for 100 years without so much as a tender offer in a newspaper or magazine, as any accountable organisation (government, publicly listed company) would need to do?

if max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he have banned green technologies a decade ago?

If max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he have had a specific rule in place against cheating and spying on other teams?

if max had been such a good head of the FIA, would there have been a more transparent excuse or some rational reason why there was no philosophical parallel between mclaren cheating and renault cheating?

If max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he personally have done anything differently to avert the Indy debacle and retain F1's presence in the richest market in the world?

good riddance to you, max.

to most, the scandal alone would be enough.

to some, your reaction to the scandal says enough about your lack of rational capacity to lead in tough times.

to me, saying it's private and nothing to do with the FIA is the straw that broke the camel's back.

[leopard]

Bernie is up against Max, but Max stays :p :

[ioan]

Look who's stirring the stinky stuff again:


"The problem is, if he stays until 2009, he will run again," Ecclestone said. "I am 100 per cent certain about that; no, one million per cent certain. That's what he said. He says: 'I don't have to do anything. There'll be another election and I can stand if I want.'"

Why is that it isn't a surprise anymore to see such comments from Bernie?!

Why I don't trust Bernard:


Ecclestone added that there were sections of F1 that wished Mosley to go because it would help the commercial side of the sport.

"It has been difficult for me," Ecclestone explained. "The people I deal with are commercial people, manufacturers, sponsors and teams. They want peace and they want to get on with the business and the sport. Max doesn't care - he's not commercial - he hasn't got one single dollar invested, so he doesn't give a stuff."

Because all he does it's because his huge financial interest, while on the opposite Max has none of this, he's there to do his job.

Link: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67951

[Ranger]

Because all he does it's because his huge financial interest, while on the opposite Max has none of this, he's there to do his job.

Just the same as Bernie's job is to manage the sport's financial interests, and as far as his job is concerned, Max shouldn't be there.

But Bernie doesn't get a vote so that's just his opinion.
[quote="Mickey T"]the issue for me is that max refuses to be judged by the same standards by which he has judged others. plus his handling of the FIA which is so praised by ioan and a few others.

he is upset about what he thinks is an intrusion into something that is nobody else's business. well, why did he get involved in the intra-team qualifying squabble in hungary last year when the stewards (judges of fact, in motorsport speak) didn't bother?

he is upset that someone has "set him up". did he or did he not enter the apartment voluntarily? yes? well, the only set up then was the leaking of the footage, ergo, the only thing he is sorry about in the whole episode was that he got caught. i have heard no regret that he was with the hookers and he engaged in his acts]
This is a great post. :up:

[Dave B]

Yup. Great post, Mickey T. :up:

If Max survives this, what happens the next time someone in an FIA-sanctioned championship is accused of bringing the sport into disrepute? All they'd need to do is use the "pot-kettle-black" defence.

[SGWilko]

the issue for me is that max refuses to be judged by the same standards by which he has judged others. plus his handling of the FIA which is so praised by ioan and a few others.

he is upset about what he thinks is an intrusion into something that is nobody else's business. well, why did he get involved in the intra-team qualifying squabble in hungary last year when the stewards (judges of fact, in motorsport speak) didn't bother?

he is upset that someone has "set him up". did he or did he not enter the apartment voluntarily? yes? well, the only set up then was the leaking of the footage, ergo, the only thing he is sorry about in the whole episode was that he got caught. i have heard no regret that he was with the hookers and he engaged in his acts; just that it hurt his family and invaded his privacy.

cast your mind back to last year, when max justified his fining of mclaren by saying he was only interested in what the evidence showed, not how it was obtained or the legal niceties of it.

you can't have it both ways, old son, especially not when, cheating or not, maclaren didn't actually break any of the FIA's laws governing F1. Not one of them.

That's why the FIA needed to charge them with bringing the sport into disrepute, because as unpalatable and unethical as it might have been, spying on another team didn't breach any of the FIA's laws governing the sport.

Max, on the other hand, would seem to have broken the law by using prostitutes. voluntarily.

If max had headed any of the companies sponsoring any F1 team, he'd have been out the door in less than 24 hours.

that he wasn't is indicative of an arrogance that interferes with judgement at key times and that makes you wonder about a lot of previous FIA decisions.

if max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he really have sold the F1 rights for 100 years without so much as a tender offer in a newspaper or magazine, as any accountable organisation (government, publicly listed company) would need to do?

if max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he have banned green technologies a decade ago?

If max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he have had a specific rule in place against cheating and spying on other teams?

if max had been such a good head of the FIA, would there have been a more transparent excuse or some rational reason why there was no philosophical parallel between mclaren cheating and renault cheating?

If max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he personally have done anything differently to avert the Indy debacle and retain F1's presence in the richest market in the world?

good riddance to you, max.

to most, the scandal alone would be enough.

to some, your reaction to the scandal says enough about your lack of rational capacity to lead in tough times.

to me, saying it's private and nothing to do with the FIA is the straw that broke the camel's back.

:up: How quickly can you be in Paris? Hurry, hurry, hurry!!!

Good grief, common sense on the Motorsport forum, whatever next.

Thanks for a very well constructed post.

Not called Bernard perchance are you?

:up: :)

[SGWilko]

max refuses to be judged by the same standards by which he has judged others.

he is upset about what he thinks is an intrusion into something that is nobody else's business. well, why did he get involved in the intra-team qualifying squabble in hungary last year?

invaded his privacy.

max justified his fining of mclaren by saying he was only interested in what the evidence showed, not how it was obtained or the legal niceties of it.

you can't have it both ways, old son,

That's why the FIA needed to charge them with bringing the sport into disrepute, because as unpalatable and unethical as it might have been, spying on another team didn't breach any of the FIA's laws governing the sport.

Max, on the other hand, would seem to have broken the law by using prostitutes. voluntarily.

One suspects this will be tantamount to the success of any defence vis a vis the NOTW suit. Quite compelling against the old boy isn't it. Max is a 'do as I say, not as I do' wallah, apparently. ;)




if max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he really have sold the F1 rights for 100 years without so much as a tender offer in a newspaper or magazine, as any accountable organisation (government, publicly listed company) would need to do?

if max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he have banned green technologies a decade ago?

If max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he have had a specific rule in place against cheating and spying on other teams?

if max had been such a good head of the FIA, would there have been a more transparent excuse or some rational reason why there was no philosophical parallel between mclaren cheating and renault cheating?

If max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he personally have done anything differently to avert the Indy debacle and retain F1's presence in the richest market in the world?


And that is the case the delegation ought to be considering right now. And F1 is just one aspect of the FIA......

[ioan]

he is upset about what he thinks is an intrusion into something that is nobody else's business. well, why did he get involved in the intra-team qualifying squabble in hungary last year when the stewards (judges of fact, in motorsport speak) didn't bother?

Because it was public, showed on millions of TV sets worldwide?!
Because it wasn't fair play, something of utmost importance in sports?!
Because the FIA is responsible of the sporting regulations of F1?!
Because having stewards that aren't capable of doing their job (look no further than 2008 Monaco GP for a good example) doesn't mean that you should let them do whatever they do?!
Because it was hurting F1, on top of the spying affair?!

What has all this to do with Mosley playing with hookers?!
It has nothing to do with it! However if some stress their brains enough than they can make it look like id Mosley is responsible for the Iraqi war! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

If max had been such a good head of the FIA, would he personally have done anything differently to avert the Indy debacle and retain F1's presence in the richest market in the world?

:rotflmao:
This is the best piece of it!
Putting Bernie's wrongdoings on Max's back! :rolleyes:

Paraphrasing SGWIlko: "Not called Bernard perchance are you?"

[SGWilko]

:rotflmao:
This is the best piece of it!
Putting Bernie's wrongdoings on Max's back! :rolleyes:


Hang on a sec, I understand the Bibendum teams & Bernie had agreed a compromise that would allow them to race at a reduced pace in that corner.

My undersatnding of articles in Autosport online (http://www.autosport.com - go look for them, havn't the time myself) that Max vetoed this idea.

As for the McCall them whatever you like Hungary incident. That affected NO OTHER COMPETITORS but themselves. What was said between drivers and teams is private (even though all teams snoop on each others transmissions).....

[Dave B]

Hang on a sec, I understand the Bibendum teams & Bernie had agreed a compromise that would allow them to race at a reduced pace in that corner.

My undersatnding of articles in Autosport online (www.autosport.com (http://www.autosport.com) - go look for them, havn't the time myself) that Max vetoed this idea.


Correct. From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_United_States_Grand_Prix):


The FIA, the sport's governing body, refused to allow a chicane to be installed, maintaining that such rule changes would be grossly unfair to the Bridgestone-shod teams, who had come prepared with properly working tyres. The Michelin teams, unable to come to a compromise with the FIA, decided not to participate.

...

Ecclestone returned at about 10:55 to inform the group that Todt had refused to agree to the chicane, maintaining that it was an FIA and a Michelin problem and not his. By the time Stoddart's account of the meeting was published, Todt had already denied that he had ever been consulted, but stated that, if asked, he would not have agreed to the chicane. Furthermore, Ecclestone reported that "Mr Mosley had stated that if any attempts were made to alter the circuit, he would cancel the Grand Prix forthwith.

Max wasn't even at the race :rolleyes:

[Mickey T]

Because it was public, showed on millions of TV sets worldwide?!

and max's indiscretions have been shown on millions of computer screens around the world. if that's your argument, you'd better try harder.


Because it wasn't fair play, something of utmost importance in sports?!

But it was fair play for your favourite team to systemically quash the hopes of one of its drivers to favour the other? Fair play will often be compromised in the interests of the team.
would it be fair play, for example, to divert resources from the driver 11th on the grid to favour the car in 3rd? it's common sense, but it's still not fair.


Because the FIA is responsible of the sporting regulations of F1?!

Which were not breached by mclaren in the hungarian instance, until max decided he needed to be seen to be doing something, largely because britain's new sporting hero was getting an awful lot of ink in the UK and he'd get a rub off by being seen to protect him


Because having stewards that aren't capable of doing their job (look no further than 2008 Monaco GP for a good example) doesn't mean that you should let them do whatever they do?!

and who, might i ask, is the president of the body responsible for appointing and monitoring those stewards?


Because it was hurting F1, on top of the spying affair?!

And you really think Max's stubborn arrogance is not?


What has all this to do with Mosley playing with hookers?!

It is utterly indicative of the man's mindset and mental processes, his understanding of issues, his lack of understanding of how those issues are perceived in the rest of the world, his priorities. do i need to go on?


It has nothing to do with it! However if some stress their brains enough than they can make it look like id Mosley is responsible for the Iraqi war! :rolleyes:

your issue, ioan, is that the issue is larger than you understand. you talk like max is the public servant and bernie is the rich bully. it's not like that.
i don't much like bernie, either.

here are the facts: max is bernie's paid lapdog. has been for years. how do you think he got the job in the first place? it was bernie who stabbed belestre to push max's nomination through.

max was paid more than US$300 mill after bernie got the 100 year rights (for about 10 percent of the market rate) and then max had the gall to cry that potential EU litigation against FIA execs in the event of a fatality were making him move to monaco, when he clearly moved to monaco to avoid tax on his windfall. There is no legal implication for max in the event of an F1 fatality. Max still refuses to admit where his windfall came from.

Max is bernie's dog. Max has been an irretrievably bad dog. bernie's just trying to do what any owner should do to an irretrievably bad dog.

[ioan]

Hang on a sec, I understand the Bibendum teams & Bernie had agreed a compromise that would allow them to race at a reduced pace in that corner.

My undersatnding of articles in Autosport online (http://www.autosport.com - go look for them, havn't the time myself) that Max vetoed this idea.

As for the McCall them whatever you like Hungary incident. That affected NO OTHER COMPETITORS but themselves. What was said between drivers and teams is private (even though all teams snoop on each others transmissions).....

That has nothing to do with f1 leaving the US however. F1 left US because a certain Ecclestone wants more money and a certain George wasn't willing to pay the huge sum.

If you want to bring up the Michelin catastrophe than the only responsibles were Michelin, not the FIA, not Bridgestone, not Ferrari nor MS! :p :
And installing a chicane would have meant advantaging the Michelin team over the Bridgestone ones, and the FIA stance was fair in the sense that F1 is a sporting competition and not Bernie's cash cow. And this brings us to what happens today in Paris with Bernie bad mouthing his "friend" (as if he ever had one).

Here's a nice view on Bernie's actions:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34975

[ShiftingGears]

Because it was public,
So using this logic, you're saying Max should also get punished because his actions are unfavourable, and public?

Because it wasn't fair play, something of utmost importance in sports?!
McLaren shot themselves in the foot. No need to push them over for it.

Because the FIA is responsible of the sporting regulations of F1?!
Because having stewards that aren't capable of doing their job (look no further than 2008 Monaco GP for a good example) doesn't mean that you should let them do whatever they do?!
Again, the punishment was totally unnecessary. It only affected the McLaren team, so it should be up to them to deal with their drivers. If only the FIA overrode stupid stewards decisions, like Alonso's 2006 Monza qualifying penalty more often.

Look at the statement issued after Hungary.
"The actions of the team in the final minutes of Qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally."
Completely vague. Could be tacked on to anything remotely questionable and could result in a penalty.


Because it was hurting F1
Not at all. Having tensions boil over between teammates ads that element of emotion and rivalry to F1. No need to punish that. It is not like they were putting each other in dangerous situations.

[SGWilko]

That has nothing to do with f1 leaving the US however. F1 left US because a certain Ecclestone wants more money and a certain George wasn't willing to pay the huge sum.

If you want to bring up the Michelin catastrophe than the only responsibles were Michelin, not the FIA, not Bridgestone, not Ferrari nor MS! :p :
And installing a chicane would have meant advantaging the Michelin team over the Bridgestone ones, and the FIA stance was fair in the sense that F1 is a sporting competition and not Bernie's cash cow. And this brings us to what happens today in Paris with Bernie bad mouthing his "friend" (as if he ever had one).

Here's a nice view on Bernie's actions:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34975

That's a great picture of Bernie in that article, is he on his way to Paris with that knife? :laugh:

Your right about the responsibilities ioan, but at least some were making the effort to put on a race.....

Anyway, I see more toys flying out the mods pram, so lets just leave 2005 Indygate where it belongs, back in Indianapolis 2005.....

[janneppi]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7430939.stm
Apparently Mosley won the vote.

[SGWilko]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7430939.stm
Apparently Mosley won the vote.

Is anyone that surprised? Can't wait to hear his press conference.

I'm dissapointed Mickey T didn't make it to Paris in time. :laugh:

[ioan]

and max's indiscretions have been shown on millions of computer screens around the world. if that's your argument, you'd better try harder.

But not on the public television and without him agreeing to it. This is called intrusion in someones privacy and those who watched the videos show a lack of decency.

I needn't try any harder you're doing it for me! :p :



But it was fair play for your favourite team to systemically quash the hopes of one of its drivers to favour the other? Fair play will often be compromised in the interests of the team.
would it be fair play, for example, to divert resources from the driver 11th on the grid to favour the car in 3rd? it's common sense, but it's still not fair.


The time when Ferrari's favoritism was evident they were hit by the FIA, so I don't see what your problem is?! I suppose you would have left Austria 2002 go by without caring if the FIA intervened or not, the same way you would have liked to be in Hungary 2007! And you have the nerve to give lessons about how Max should do his work!



Which were not breached by mclaren in the hungarian instance, until max decided he needed to be seen to be doing something, largely because britain's new sporting hero was getting an awful lot of ink in the UK and he'd get a rub off by being seen to protect him

May I remind you that after Austria 2002 there was a rule that said that any action that brings the sport into disrepute will be punished?! You seem to lack knowledge of the rules, but you still go ahead and criticize the rulers.



and who, might i ask, is the president of the body responsible for appointing and monitoring those stewards?

It's not like he is having a personal interview with each of them, they are appointed by the race clerk and it is clear that the president of the responsible body doesn't tolerate their mediocrity and didn't hesitate to go against their wrong decisions.

So, if I may ask, what exactly are you trying to criticize Max for? because he dared to correct the ineptitudes of the stewards?!



And you really think Max's stubborn arrogance is not?


What arrogance?
Was he arrogant because he didn't yield to underhanded actions involving his private life?!
Or was he arrogant because he had the nerve to call a cheater a cheater and slap Ron and McLaren when they were lying and cheating around!



It is utterly indicative of the man's mindset and mental processes, his understanding of issues, his lack of understanding of how those issues are perceived in the rest of the world, his priorities. do i need to go on?

And you have the professional background to make comments on someone's mindset and mental processes?



your issue, ioan, is that the issue is larger than you understand. you talk like max is the public servant and bernie is the rich bully. it's not like that.
i don't much like bernie, either.

You have no idea whatsoever about who you are talking with, and even less the right to judge me, but given that you already did it i can't change that anymore.
The way I see it is the way I think it is, the fact that you see it otherwise doesn't mean that I don't understand it, it just means that I judge things based on different values that does you use in your thinking process.
You see, it is simple and I didn't need to insult you to make that clear. :rolleyes:



here are the facts: max is bernie's paid lapdog. has been for years. how do you think he got the job in the first place? it was bernie who stabbed belestre to push max's nomination through.

And?! It might be like that, and the way I see it "the lap dog" had enough of Bernie's fiddling, so Bernie decided to replay the Balestre card and change Max with a more docile "lap dog". And I hope his coup won't work and we get to see F1 without Bernard one day with the money he poaches going to the poorer teams in order not to repeat the Super Aguri F1 case.



max was paid more than US$300 mill after bernie got the 100 year rights (for about 10 percent of the market rate) and then max had the gall to cry that potential EU litigation against FIA execs in the event of a fatality were making him move to monaco, when he clearly moved to monaco to avoid tax on his windfall. There is no legal implication for max in the event of an F1 fatality. Max still refuses to admit where his windfall came from.

He might have earned the money you talk about, I might even believe you, as I have no idea about this being or not being the case



Max is bernie's dog. Max has been an irretrievably bad dog. bernie's just trying to do what any owner should do to an irretrievably bad dog.

Finally we agree that Bernie wants Max out because he didn't play Bernie's game.

Cheers :)

[ioan]

That's a great picture of Bernie in that article, is he on his way to Paris with that knife? :laugh:

It's a picture that made it's appearance during the Indy 2005 week end! ;)


Your right about the responsibilities ioan, but at least some were making the effort to put on a race.....

But did you know that if there was no race or a farce as we got than Bernie as the organizer had to pay back the money the televisions paid him for that race?! :rolleyes:
This may give you a clue why Bernard was trying so hard to have a race with 20 cars! Not for you, not for me for much more than that! ;)



Anyway, I see more toys flying out the mods pram, so lets just leave 2005 Indygate where it belongs, back in Indianapolis 2005.....

I agree, the technical aspect were already beaten to death, so no use going back. :)

[ioan]

I'm dissapointed Mickey T didn't make it to Paris in time. :laugh:

He was trying to get over me first! ;)

[Bagwan]

This is not about all that .
This is about hookers .

If you want to throw him out over all that , do it .
But , this is about hookers .

Should he be thrown out because of his indiscrete tryst ?



Max stays . Told ya so .

[ShiftingGears]

Report with a bit more information on autosport.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67957

[ioan]

This is not about all that .
This is about hookers .

If you want to throw him out over all that , do it .
But , this is about hookers .

Should he be thrown out because of his indiscrete tryst ?

It seems that he shouldn't! :)

[Bagwan]

103 to 55 .
That's a margin most politicians would love .

He must be doing a fine job , if you don't count shaking hands .

[AndyRAC]

What will happen to the Governing bodies who came out publicly and demanded his resignation? Will they lose their races/rallies?

[I am evil Homer]

Well the US and German both said they wanted him out in no uncertain terms....but I really don't think they want to risk upsetting BMW and Mercedes or risk the German GP. Not that Max gets to choose anyway....that's Moneybags Ecclestone.

Either way there's clearly a split that's going to take a great deal of time and care to repair. If they can.

[ioan]

What will happen to the Governing bodies who came out publicly and demanded his resignation? Will they lose their races/rallies?

They sure will keep their F1 races as long as they pay Bernie's astronomic fees.

[Azumanga Davo]

Good grief. Nil points all round...

What does Sir Terry Wogan make of that farcical vote?

[Rusty Spanner]

Max wins vote. Hardly surprising.
The real fight starts now because this is not going to go away.
F1 and its sponsors want nothing to do with Max.
The manufacturers want nothing to do with Max.
Many heads of state have shown they want nothing to do with Max.
Some of the largest auto clubs in the world want nothing to do with Max.
That will make it pretty difficult for him to do his job.
What little is left of the FIAs credibility is on the line.

[SGWilko]

Germany's ADAC pulls out of FIA Working Groups.

WHo's gonna join 'em eh?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67958

[ioan]

Germany's ADAC pulls out of FIA Working Groups.

WHo's gonna join 'em eh?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67958

Good riddance! :wave:

[SGWilko]

Good riddance! :wave:

:p : You had a bad experience having broken down in Germany? ;)

[F1boat]

I am delighted. Private life of people should not interfere with their job. In my opinion justice prevailed.

[AndyRAC]

They sure will keep their F1 races as long as they pay Bernie's astronomic fees.

Which is another matter altogether.

[ioan]

Which is another matter altogether.

Why did you bring it up here then?! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Dutch representatives stops short of saying that smaller clubs are rubbish because they voted for Mosley and his views on improving the level of this smaller associations :


Van Woerkom also said that it was normal that the clubs getting money from the FIA voted in favour of Mosley, although he denied there was corruption involved.

"It is more or less difficult to say, but there is a lot of money going around and if you get a small piece of that bread it can be very nice to eat," Van Woerkom said.

"Corrupt is not the way, I won't say it. But when you look at the McLaren fine, that is a lot of money, and when you get something from that you are more or less in favour of the people giving you that bread.

"So that's normal in life, although in some countries that's normal."

As I see it, it was all about the money, and I already mentioned those $ 100.000.000 in the threads about Mosely.
The bigger associations were unhappy that Max was thinking about giving most of the money to the smaller and poorer asociations in an attempt to raise their level.

They took the opportunity with the sex scandal and tried to changed the head of the FIA in an attempt to change the direction of the cash flow.

It was never about how good or bad Mosley is in his position as head of the FIA.

[MAX_THRUST]

Sorry, but MAx has employed those who support him, and they are the ones that voted. SOrry this just shows how corrupt the FIA is and I feel they have lost some credibillty with this move.

Yes his private life is his, but he thrust himself into the public domain recently with various situations and for that reason the press went for him all guns blazing.

The man is a silly old fool, and should resign now......

[Knock-on]

Well, this is very worrying.

The problem is that each representative gets 1 vote. The smallest get the same power as one of the American representatives with 100,000,000 members behind them.

So, Max ran a 3 line whip bribing and bullying the smaller members to toe the line.

Problem is that the people that voted against Max hold the power in the FIA and they are still against him and threatening to split from the FIA.

Max might be left holding a toothless FIA at this rate. Whatever happens, this is far from over.

[ioan]

The man is a silly old fool, and should resign now......

Are you kidding? He just won the first battle! Bring on the next one! :D

[ioan]

:eek:


"The Motor Sports Association respects the decision of the FIA General Assembly concerning President Mosley and considers that it is now time to move on and for the sport to pull together," said the MSA in a statement.


Link:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67960

[Valve Bounce]

The battle may be over, but the war has just begun. If many of the larger clubs pull out of the FIA, the ones in countries involved with F1, like those staging the races and/or those who are manufacturers, this may take a different direction.

[Knock-on]

Truth is that it has no effect on the FIA, because if Mosely can't meet some sheik or president or prime minister than the FIA vice presidents can do it without a problem. The FIA also has national associations in every country, and these are the ones who mainly interact with their governments.

All this talk about the "serious damage" is hot air, it's politics, trying to make it look worse without actually being able to prove it, because there is nothing to prove, and that's exactly why no one is coming up with an example of "serious damage".

Well, ADAC has withdrawn from the FIA until Max steps dow. I think they have 70,000,000 members or something?

That's the first. Which will be the 2nd as I think we will see some of that "serious" damage quite soon.

[ArrowsFA1]

With this vote the FIA have been seen to serve Max's interests, not those of the FIA.

The future is now the issue, and is a real concern


"This isn't just about the future of one person; this is about the future of a whole organisation with more than 100 years of history."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67952

Van Woerkom suggested some clubs are now likely to withdawn all involvement with the FIA, following ADAC's example.
"Yes, well, I am now away to have a lunch with those clubs and maybe that is the outcome of that discussion," he said.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67959

"For Europe's largest motoring club, this is a reason to put down all its functions and the involvement in the global organisation of motoring clubs with immediate effect and to step down from the globally active FIA working groups. The ADAC will stick to this attitude as long as Max Mosley will be on duty as president of the FIA."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67958

There may be some who are looking forward to the next battle in this mess, but some remember the FISA/FOCA "war" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FISA-FOCA_war) and hoped never to see that kind of thing happen again, but Maxgate is comparable. It may have begun with a private trip to a brothel, but it's gone waaaaay beyond that being the issue now.

Having called the meeting, set the agenda, and won the vote, Max should now resign. If not, it seems clear that there will be acrimonious division within the FIA.

[ioan]

Well, ADAC has withdrawn from the FIA until Max steps dow. I think they have 70,000,000 members or something?

I doubt they have 70.000.000 members as whole Germany has 90.000.000 citizens and that would mean that all of those over 18 would be ADAC members, which I doubt.


That's the first. Which will be the 2nd as I think we will see some of that "serious" damage quite soon.

Good riddance to all of them trying to put down a man for his private life while they did nothing when they had better reasons from his professional activity.

From the comments of the Dutch representative it is clear that it was a matter of money rather than anything else.

There will be little damage if any and it will be because some losers can't take it that they lost the battle.

[ioan]

Having called the meeting, set the agenda, and won the vote, Max should now resign.

That would suit your POV but not that of the majority of the FIA member clubs, given the results of todays vote, or maybe we shouldn't listen anymore to what the majority wants, rather be driven by personal interests and egos?! :p :

[cosmicpanda]

The ADAC has frozen its activities with the FIA. Does this mean that the Rally of Germany is off for this year?

[ioan]

The battle may be over, but the war has just begun. If many of the larger clubs pull out of the FIA, the ones in countries involved with F1, like those staging the races and/or those who are manufacturers, this may take a different direction.

Look, the MSA decided to stay and put an end to this story!
The French, I doubt they will leave.
The Dutch and Americans were unhappy but didn't leave, yet.

The Germans only left because they HAD TO BE AGAINST the "nazi" connotations of the whole affair, and they risked losing national support if they stayed.

Let's see what happens next in this game.
How will Bernie react now, after he tried to destroy Mosley's chances during the last 2 weeks?!
And how will Max return the favors?!

[ioan]

The ADAC has frozen its activities with the FIA. Does this mean that the Rally of Germany is off for this year?

They said they stop their activity with the Working Group of the FIA, whatever that means.

[ArrowsFA1]

There will be little damage if any...
I hope you're right :dozey:

[SGWilko]

How will Bernie react now, after he tried to destroy Mosley's chances during the last 2 weeks?!


Bernard can now fight the FIA as hard as he likes, as he and Max are no longer buddies. ;)

The French won't pull out, not if Todt is being groomed for the presidents' job (not of France, the FIA ;) ) :p :

[tintop]

I hope you're right :dozey: Unfortunately, I doubt it, Germany's contribution to Motorsport far exceeds that connoted by a simple representative population calculation.

[ioan]

Unfortunately, I doubt it, Germany's contribution to Motorsport far exceeds that connoted by a simple representative population calculation.

I doubt that Mercedes and BMW will pull out of F1 because Max stays in charge of F1 after an extra marital affair.
And not all Motorpsort is done under FIA approval, take a look to the USA.

[Tazio]

A serious blow to the Anglo-Mafia on this Forum!
Now drop your Knickers and take your spanking like good Puritans!

[F1boat]

It is interesting that ADAC attacks Mosley's private life, cause it is Nazi-like, but just exatcly what Nazi party did - when the vote doesn't suit it, it boycotts everything.
I am disgusted by ADAC and I hope that Max stays firm.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67960 - that's how democrats act. ADAC = the true nazis in motorsport!

[Knock-on]

A serious blow to the Anglo-Mafia on this Forum!
Now drop your Knickers and take your spanking like good Puritans!

First of all, I don't understand what an English-Sicilian secret criminal sect is doing on this forum (or indeed what it actually is?) but I doubt that this decision by the FIA will affect them in any way.

Second, what point were you trying to make?

[ioan]

First of all, I don't understand what an English-Sicilian secret criminal sect is doing on this forum (or indeed what it actually is?) but I doubt that this decision by the FIA will affect them in any way.

Second, what point were you trying to make?

I thought English as your first language and as such you understand it well! :p :

[Knock-on]

ADAC = the true nazis in motorsport!

This is frankly disgraceful and has no place on our Forum :(

[Knock-on]

I thought English as your first language and such you understand it well! :p :

I think you mean "is" my first language :p :

Anyway, it is and I still haven't a clue what point he was trying to make. Perhaps you could enlighten me ;)

[tintop]

I doubt that Mercedes and BMW will pull out of F1 because Max stays in charge of F1 after an extra marital affair.
And not all Motorpsort is done under FIA approval, take a look to the USA.

It's obvious that Max wouldn't be in Paris, if it were just an "extra-marital" affair. BMW and Mercedes pulling out would constitute "a lot" of damage, not "little damage if any", I'm sure that there is an array of impact that falls somewhere in that continuum. It would be helpful to keep these things straight.

[F1boat]

This is frankly disgraceful and has no place on our Forum :(

If you read my whole post, I don't say that the ADAC believe in the Nazi political philospohy, which would be a lie and disgraceful, but thet ADAC used questionable methods who were used by the Nazi party; which makes hypocritical their interference with Max's private life.

[Azumanga Davo]

Hmmm, if Bernie wants nothing to do with Max, would that mean he can become part of a Formula 1 that is split from the FIA like they did once in 1982?

[Azumanga Davo]

If you read my whole post, I don't say that the ADAC believe in the Nazi political philospohy, which would be a lie and disgraceful, but thet ADAC used questionable methods who were used by the Nazi party; which makes hypocritical their interference with Max's private life.

I don't see any how they relate. The Nazi Party used their tactics to force another vote. ADAC are pulling out, not for another vote, but because they don't want to be seen endorsing you know who.

I reckon you are out of line drawing that comparison in the first place.

[ioan]

Hmmm, if Bernie wants nothing to do with Max, would that mean he can become part of a Formula 1 that is split from the FIA like they did once in 1982?

Not sure about that, a read into the Concorde agreement would be useful.

[Azumanga Davo]

Not sure about that, a read into the Concorde agreement would be useful.

Tell that to the manufacturers who don't want Max. And Bernie.

[F1boat]

I don't see any how they relate. The Nazi Party used their tactics to force another vote. ADAC are pulling out, not for another vote, but because they don't want to be seen endorsing you know who.

I reckon you are out of line drawing that comparison in the first place.

Both come as a sign of enormous disrespect to the vote which was made.

[Azumanga Davo]

Both come as a sign of enormous disrespect to the vote which was made.

That depends on how fair a vote it was. By the sounds of things, much smaller automobile clubs had the same 'one vote, one value' as much larger clubs.

No, something is definitely not right. Everyone should know better than to assume all is well and not bribing anyone. It's never that simple higher up.

[F1boat]

I think that the system one club, one vote is much better than fiew enormous communities creating an oligarchy.
BTW, BMW now prefers to focus on racing:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67962

[ioan]

Both come as a sign of enormous disrespect to the vote which was made.

As I pointed it out earlier, because of the "nazi" connotations invoked by a certain so called "newspaper" the Germans had to vote against Max and than leave if he stayed. They are still paying the price for the WWII.

Others, although not happy with the outcome, didn't rush into such decisions.
The ADAC will be back in no time once Mosley retires, and their departure will have no influence on the German motorsport, that will be taken care of.

[ioan]

I think that the system one club, one vote is much better than fiew enormous communities creating an oligarchy.
BTW, BMW now prefers to focus on racing:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67962

Theissen always looked like a very serious and decent person, so this is no surprise for me.

[Azumanga Davo]

As I pointed it out earlier, because of the "nazi" connotations invoked by a certain so called "newspaper" the Germans had to vote against Max and than leave if he stayed. They are still paying the price for the WWII.

Others, although not happy with the outcome, didn't rush into such decisions.
The ADAC will be back in no time once Mosley retires, and their departure will have no influence on the German motorsport, that will be taken care of.

That is as maybe, but a lot of people are now thoroughly fed up with his "back door" tactics to elevate himself higher up the chain. One positive of that though is the increased chance of a challenge from another party for presidency of the FIA next election time.

[Dave B]

The Dutch club president has stopped just short of calling the vote corrupt:



Van Woerkom also said that it was normal that the clubs getting money from the FIA voted in favour of Mosley, although he denied there was corruption involved.

"It is more or less difficult to say, but there is a lot of money going around and if you get a small piece of that bread it can be very nice to eat," Van Woerkom said.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67959

He also agrees that the smaller clubs effectively saved Max:



"And he has a lot of contacts with the smaller clubs and what we have seen in the general assembly is that more or less the smaller clubs are in favour.

"But when you look to the bigger clubs, the AAA (USA), the triple A in Australia, the JAF (Japan) of 70 million members, the ADAC in Germany, the NWB in the Netherlands, they all are against. So when you count the members behind the members then I don't think he will succeed."

[SGWilko]

They are still paying the price for the WWII.



Don't be so silly. No they are not. What is done is done. The only person in this sorry saga who made a reference to the Germans and Nazi's was Max and his reposte of BMW and Mercedes......

[Azumanga Davo]

Don't be so silly. No they are not. What is done is done. The only person in this sorry saga who made a reference to the Germans and Nazi's was Max and his reposte of BMW and Mercedes......

That's the sort of jibe you would expect. He just can't seem to let go of it, can he?

[Dave B]

Damon Hill believes that Mosley staying on could damage the chances of the British government investing in the British GP.



"We really need an organisation like the FIA to help us protect our position so that we can have reasonable terms from the commercial rights holders.

"It's very difficult, when you have a president who is as controversial as Max is, to argue the case for funding for Formula 1 from the government if we need to.

"I think not taking on board the general political atmosphere is sometimes a strength, but in this case it seems to be really inconsiderate for the sport."

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=42853

Damon appears to agree with the prevailing view that Max is bad for the sport's image.

[Dave B]

Theissen always looked like a very serious and decent person, so this is no surprise for me.
Saying that you respect a decision is not the same as saying you agree with it. Mario was one of the first people to openly criticise Max (link here (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66308)).

[ioan]

That depends on how fair a vote it was. By the sounds of things, much smaller automobile clubs had the same 'one vote, one value' as much larger clubs.

These are national clubs, why would Finland or Sweden count less than the USA for example?!
Or what about China and India or Bresil or Pakistan? Shouldn't these count 3-4 times more than the USA? Or 10-20 times more than GB?!
Just think about it!


No, something is definitely not right. Everyone should know better than to assume all is well and not bribing anyone. It's never that simple higher up.

There is no bribing involved.

What the Dutch representative said is that the smaller clubs from poorer countries get more money from the common fonds in order to raise the level of the automobile related activities in those countries.

No one said anything about bribing.

It is never simple higher up, but if we go with your logic than none of the governments should stay on.

[ArrowsFA1]

You do wonder if, having received a mandate today, that Max will now tell us that only he can save the FIA but that he will need a further term to do so!

[ioan]

Saying that you respect a decision is not the same as saying you agree with it. Mario was one of the first people to openly criticise Max (link here (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66308)).

As I said, Germans have to criticize Mosley because of their past, they can't do otherwise.

However some of them are sensible people and don't go the extreme route.

I didn't say he agreed with anything.

[SGWilko]

Damon Hill believes that Mosley staying on could damage the chances of the British government investing in the British GP.



http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=42853

Damon appears to agree with the prevailing view that Max is bad for the sport's image.

Well, you see the problem is that, anyone will now associate Max with what he did behind closed doors. Now, regretful though it is that it came out, it did. The world and his hamster now knows the kind of man he is, when before, they just knew the public face of Max.

That IS the problem. Peoples perception. From the public, to the bigwigs in the boardroom see him in a very different light.

So, the focus can no longer be 100% on the task at hand. He therefore is severely handicapped from doing his job.

WHat have we learned today? That despite the big hitting clubs voting against Max, it was the small insignificant ones that held the aces. Max knew that all along. He never had a doubt he would lose, not in the slightest.

But, it's about as genuine a victory as the one Mugabe tried to take.

Does Max think that, now he has won the vote, no one knows what he did in that Chelsea basement?

Let us just see what happens in the next few days. The atmosphere in the Montral paddock will be a good barometer......

[ioan]

Damon Hill believes that Mosley staying on could damage the chances of the British government investing in the British GP.

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=42853

Damon appears to agree with the prevailing view that Max is bad for the sport's image.

Not that Damon often agreed with Mosley. This is all politics.
And what Damon "believes" might be true or not.

[ioan]

Does Max think that, now he has won the vote, no one knows what he did in that Chelsea basement?


I doubt he thinks that, however how would any of you people feel if your private life would go public?!
Can't you just stop criticizing him for his sexual life?

[ioan]

Don't be so silly. No they are not. What is done is done. The only person in this sorry saga who made a reference to the Germans and Nazi's was Max and his reposte of BMW and Mercedes......

Just goes to show you have no idea of how Germans and Austrians see what the Nazis did in WWII.
Trying telling a joke involving "nazis" and/or "jews" in Germany or Austria and you might see what I'm talking about.

Before saying that I'm silly you could take your time and try to find out what the reality is.

[Dave B]

These are national clubs, why would Finland or Sweden count less than the USA for example?!
Well, Paul Stoddart has said that he estimates the 55 clubs who voted against Mosley represent around 80% of the numbers of the motoring groups.


Source: http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?id=42854

"It's a sad day for world motorsport," he told BBC Radio 5 Live.

"If the 103 countries [who voted in Mosley's favour] were read out, I guarantee you wouldn't recognise 99 percent of them, with a few notable exceptions.

"I think it's the beginning of the end of the FIA as we know it.

"I suspect we will now see a massive breakaway – the 50-odd that voted against Mosley represent some 80 percent of the numbers of the worldwide motoring groups of the big countries that we all know and respect.


If this vote had been organised along the lines of a shareholders' meeting, Max would have lost by a ratio of approximately 20:80 instead of winning 103:55.

Remember: 55 clubs had no confidence in Max Mosley. That's hugely significant.

[Dave B]

I doubt he thinks that, however how would any of you people feel if your private life would go public?!
Can't you just stop criticizing him for his sexual life?

If my sex life affected my ability to do my job, I'd expect to be asked to resign.

[SGWilko]

If my sex life affected my ability to do my job, I'd expect to be asked to resign.

+1

Mind you, I only get it twice a year, so no shocking headlines here I am afraid! :rotflmao:

Oh, ioan, I don't think telling jokes about nazi's is very clever anywhere, do you?

[ioan]

Well, Paul Stoddart has said that he estimates the 55 clubs who voted against Mosley represent around 80% of the numbers of the motoring groups.

Not him again! :mad:


If this vote had been organised along the lines of a shareholders' meeting, Max would have lost by a ratio of approximately 20:80 instead of winning 103:55.

Was this calculated based on Stoddy's estimation?!


Remember: 55 clubs had no confidence in Max Mosley. That's hugely significant.

And 103 did have confidence, that's even more significant! Unless there is a huge change in maths that I missed one of these days!

As already pointed out by Bagwan, many politicians would be happy to win by such a margin!

Cheers people, try to get over someone else's private life, it's none of your business.

[ioan]

If my sex life affected my ability to do my job, I'd expect to be asked to resign.

You're some kind of p-star!?! :p :
Just kidding.

[ArrowsFA1]

...many politicians would be happy to win by such a margin!
Richard Nixon perhaps...oh no, he resigned :p :

[SGWilko]

Not him again! :mad:



Was this calculated based on Stoddy's estimation?!



And 103 did have confidence, that's even more significant! Unless there is a huge change in maths that I missed one of these days!

As already pointed out by Bagwan, many politicians would be happy to win by such a margin!

Cheers people, try to get over someone else's private life, it's none of your business.

You are missing the point. The way the vote works skews the true result, because countries with one club get one vote, countries with 3 clubs, get..........


anybody?



Beuller.........
Beuller.........
Beuller.........
anybody.......

;)

[ioan]

+1

Mind you, I only get it twice a year, so no shocking headlines here I am afraid! :rotflmao:

Oh, ioan, I don't think telling jokes about nazi's is very clever anywhere, do you?

No it isn't but in some countries they might try to see the humorous part of it, but not in Germany and Austria.
Believe me I know these countries, young people (there are exceptions as always) are ashamed about what happened and they do strongly condemn it.

The ADAC move was based on Germany's external politics in regard to the horrors of WWII.

[ioan]

You are missing the point. The way the vote works skews the true result, because countries with one club get one vote, countries with 3 clubs, get..........


anybody?



Beuller.........
Beuller.........
Beuller.........
anybody.......

;)

Honestly, do all these clubs have a minimum set number of members?! If each club has a minimum of say 10 millions and one country has 2 and the other 10 than I see your point.

But what if in OZ they have 5 clubs of 1 million members while in China they have 1 club of 100.000.000?! What then?!

Allow me to cite you:
"anybody?



Beuller.........
Beuller.........
Beuller.........
anybody.......

;) "

:p :

[ioan]

Anyway I'm just glad that justice was done and he didn't have to resign because of extra-marital affairs.

See ya all in another thread! ;)

[SGWilko]

Anyway I'm just glad that justice was done and he didn't have to resign because of extra-marital affairs.

See ya all in another thread! ;)

TTFN. :wave:

[SGWilko]

try to see the humorous part of it.

What part of gassing very large numbers of people based on their faith do you find humorous?

There is being able to move on from something, and being offended by something.

I suspect ADAC had to make the stand not directly because of Germany's history, but because of Max's inference that BMW and Mercedes were directly involved of their own volition during WWII.

Anyway, we've digressed way off the beaten track, again. Wainwright would be proud! ;)

[Mickey T]

i'm not surprised and i don't know why anybody else is, either.

max wouldn't have called the vote if he didn't absolutely know he would win it.

as i predicted a couple of weeks ago on the other Mosley-related thread, max won the vote on the strength of the unrepresentative FIA voting structure and the big clubs from the big countries will bugger off and form their own organisation, leaving max until the end of his term in 2009 to spend McLaren's $100 mill on his supporting countries.

amongst the countries likely to have voted against mosley - because their federations signed official letters demanding his resignation - include (as mentioned by Knock-On a while back):

USA (AAA and AATA),
Singapore (AAS),
Germany (ADAC),
Finland, (AL),
Canada (CAA),
Brazil (CCB),
Denmark (FDM),
France (FFA),
India (FIAA),
Japan (JAF),
the Netherlands (KNAC),
Sweden (M),
Hungary (MAK),
Israel (MEMSI),
Austria (OEMTC),
Spain (RACC and RACE),
Belgium (TCB)
Switzerland (TCS),
Russia.

Bernie will side with the breakaway, because if you add Monaco, you've got a solid championship base already.

Singapore, Germany, Hungary, Spain, Belgium, Canada, Brazil and Japan already hosting a Grand Prix (Germany and Japan are both easily and historically capable of hosting two), while Russia and India are both dead keen to get one anyway.

It's a reasonable championship already and the Muslim-dominated countries (Bahrain, Turkey and Malaysia) plus Australia and China would almost certainly come with them.

Rule out Switzerland, because by law, you cannot hold a car race there.

then, at the end of 2009, mosley will depart. he will not seek another term because, with the bigger clubs gone, their earning power will be gone as well, and so will everything inside the cash tin in the FIA's headquarters. And why would max want to be looking at an empty biscuit tin? his successor can clean that mess up.

While F1 may find its groove without the FIA, the World Rally Championship and the WTCC have less certain futures, neither of them being commercially strong enough to wander off on their own, neither of them being commercially strong enough to warrant the attentions of B Ecclestone.

Look for these two sports, in particular, to become the outlet for some of the voting payoffs, with people from countries you've never heard of being appointed stewards and new events in countries loyal to max.

I'd also like to see somebody auditing airfares and accommodation costs from the FIA (though they've learned a thing or two off the IOC, so it'll be a few layers deep), because this is another way the payoff will happen.

(and, ioan, china and india have a fraction of the cars in the US or the UK, for that matter, and a fraction of the licenced drivers, so they would not have a 4-1 voting advantage over the US. it's the other way around, and then some.)

it's a sad, predictable day. we stand on the brink of a schism the likes of which the sport we all love has never seen.

Regardless of what anybody thinks about privacy issues and whether somebody's personal life should be aired in public, the fact remains that up until this afternoon, only one man could have stopped this from happening.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man. And he didn't.

the only conclusion you can draw from it is that a man with a deep love of the sport (and the rest of the FIA's responsibilities) could have, for the sake of the sport, averted the worst yet to come.

The FIA is not just motorsport and max knows (and if i knew they would break away two weeks ago, he surely did) that without the money from the bigger countries, any FIA road-safety initiatives will not be seen through, either.

yet he still placed his pride above the that which he purports to love and feel responsible for.

Karma, where art thou?

[Mickey T]

Honestly, do all these clubs have a minimum set number of members?! If each club has a minimum of say 10 millions and one country has 2 and the other 10 than I see your point.

But what if in OZ they have 5 clubs of 1 million members while in China they have 1 club of 100.000.000?! What then?!

Allow me to cite you:
"anybody?



Beuller.........
Beuller.........
Beuller.........
anybody.......

;) "

:p :

Australia has one club, the AAA.

it is the peak body for the state clubs (RACQ, NRMA, RACV, RACT etc).

china does not have 100,000,000 people with licences. while it's accelerating, its annual new car sales last year were about the same as Australia's.

[Mickey T]

No it isn't but in some countries they might try to see the humorous part of it, but not in Germany and Austria.
Believe me I know these countries, young people (there are exceptions as always) are ashamed about what happened and they do strongly condemn it.

The ADAC move was based on Germany's external politics in regard to the horrors of WWII.


i wouldn't have thought telling nazi or jewish jokes was a bright idea in romania, either, given that their slaughter of jews was so extreme that the nazis had to send Eichmann down there - of all people - to put a stop to it.

[tintop]

As I said, Germans have to criticize Mosley because of their past, they can't do otherwise.

However some of them are sensible people and don't go the extreme route.

I didn't say he agreed with anything.

This simplistic assesment is neither accurate nor productive.

[jens]

The voting result proves, how powerful Max is. It looks like he got votes from those, for who his continuance is beneficial (smaller organizations?). Money talks, you know. Max is a true specialist at law and he uses this knowledge perfectly to keep his seat. Alas his knowledge is not that beneficial for the interest of autosport in general.

I don't think the scandal was a direct reason for this voting procedure and all this sudden dissatisfaction with Max by those, who are engaged with autosport. More likely it's only an impulse, which indeed has magnified all the previously accumulated tensions.

[Knock-on]

i'm not surprised and i don't know why anybody else is, either.

max wouldn't have called the vote if he didn't absolutely know he would win it.

as i predicted a couple of weeks ago on the other Mosley-related thread, max won the vote on the strength of the unrepresentative FIA voting structure and the big clubs from the big countries will bugger off and form their own organisation, leaving max until the end of his term in 2009 to spend McLaren's $100 mill on his supporting countries.

amongst the countries likely to have voted against mosley - because their federations signed official letters demanding his resignation - include (as mentioned by Knock-On a while back):

USA (AAA and AATA),
Singapore (AAS),
Germany (ADAC),
Finland, (AL),
Canada (CAA),
Brazil (CCB),
Denmark (FDM),
France (FFA),
India (FIAA),
Japan (JAF),
the Netherlands (KNAC),
Sweden (M),
Hungary (MAK),
Israel (MEMSI),
Austria (OEMTC),
Spain (RACC and RACE),
Belgium (TCB)
Switzerland (TCS),
Russia.

Bernie will side with the breakaway, because if you add Monaco, you've got a solid championship base already.

Singapore, Germany, Hungary, Spain, Belgium, Canada, Brazil and Japan already hosting a Grand Prix (Germany and Japan are both easily and historically capable of hosting two), while Russia and India are both dead keen to get one anyway.

It's a reasonable championship already and the Muslim-dominated countries (Bahrain, Turkey and Malaysia) plus Australia and China would almost certainly come with them.

Rule out Switzerland, because by law, you cannot hold a car race there.

then, at the end of 2009, mosley will depart. he will not seek another term because, with the bigger clubs gone, their earning power will be gone as well, and so will everything inside the cash tin in the FIA's headquarters. And why would max want to be looking at an empty biscuit tin? his successor can clean that mess up.

While F1 may find its groove without the FIA, the World Rally Championship and the WTCC have less certain futures, neither of them being commercially strong enough to wander off on their own, neither of them being commercially strong enough to warrant the attentions of B Ecclestone.

Look for these two sports, in particular, to become the outlet for some of the voting payoffs, with people from countries you've never heard of being appointed stewards and new events in countries loyal to max.

I'd also like to see somebody auditing airfares and accommodation costs from the FIA (though they've learned a thing or two off the IOC, so it'll be a few layers deep), because this is another way the payoff will happen.

(and, ioan, china and india have a fraction of the cars in the US or the UK, for that matter, and a fraction of the licenced drivers, so they would not have a 4-1 voting advantage over the US. it's the other way around, and then some.)

it's a sad, predictable day. we stand on the brink of a schism the likes of which the sport we all love has never seen.

Regardless of what anybody thinks about privacy issues and whether somebody's personal life should be aired in public, the fact remains that up until this afternoon, only one man could have stopped this from happening.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man. And he didn't.

the only conclusion you can draw from it is that a man with a deep love of the sport (and the rest of the FIA's responsibilities) could have, for the sake of the sport, averted the worst yet to come.

The FIA is not just motorsport and max knows (and if i knew they would break away two weeks ago, he surely did) that without the money from the bigger countries, any FIA road-safety initiatives will not be seen through, either.

yet he still placed his pride above the that which he purports to love and feel responsible for.

Karma, where art thou?

Yep, I pretty much agree with all that. However, there are options.

IF there is a break-away, then I see things going the way you say. It will be damaging for everyone involved and the good work that the FIA does will be severly compromised. There will be a lot of collatoral damage but a leaner, meaner FIA (or whatever it's called then) will emerge.

But, there is a 3rd way.

MM must know now that he cannot survive and continue. He would be foolish to try as he will be thwarted at every term. He may hold onto his position but it is a hollow role. There is a possibility he may bow out, stating he has proved himself with the vote but now feels it the correct time to focus on clearing his name with the NOTW.

We can just hope now he's had his ego massaged by the "monkeys at the back" that he decides to quit.

[Dave B]

I was just saying as much to Susy. Max could emerge with a tiny trace of dignity if he now says "I've won the vote, which was important for me personally, but now it's time to step down for the sake of the FIA and motorsport".

I wouldn't get my hopes up though :s

[tintop]

I was just saying as much to Susy. Max could emerge with a tiny trace of dignity if he now says "I've won the vote, which was important for me personally, but now it's time to step down for the sake of the FIA and motorsport".

I wouldn't get my hopes up though :s

Well done, Max and dignity are difficult to combine in the same sentence :)

[Bagwan]

Max needs now , to focus on opening up that can of worms a little wider .

Let's see who was responsible for the sting .

[Nikki Katz]

I'm really disappointed by this. Aside from anything, Max doesn't seem to have done anything other than defend himself since the story broke; the only race he turned up at was Monaco, and most of the teams refused to meet him then. He also said that if he survived then he wanted the role to be more low-key until his term expires in a year or so. Erm, isn't there a lot of stuff that needs to be sorted out before then? I get the feeling that Bernie's going to have to step in in the off-season over the customer cars issue as that simply won't wait until next summer.

[Dave B]

Let's see who was responsible for the sting .
You need to appreciate that this is how the News Of The World gets most of its publicity. They're well known for organising elaborate situations to entrap high-profile public figures, criminals, or celebrities. Google "Fake sheik" and you'll get an idea of their modus operandi.

Maybe Max upset somebody in Murdoch's empire, but I doubt there's any big conspiracy at work here.

[F1boat]

Our Bulgarian member has voted for Max - I am happy :)

[Knock-on]

Interesting observation is that if the vote at the FIA would have been representative of the size of the organisation (as mentioned earlier) rather than the number of organisations, it would have been similar to the results of our vote.

As it is, we know that the FIA doesn't work like that ;)

I wonder if all the smaller members are Ferrari fans as well :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

Bernie's view:

"It's business as usual as far as I'm concerned. I hope it hasn't destabilised sponsors or manufacturers. I've always said publicly that I thought he should stand down at the end of the year. We are now in a position where nobody quite knows (what will happen). All those who said things in the past, I don't imagine they are going to change their opinion now. It's going to be difficult for him to act as a president of the FIA if the people who said before that they don't want to meet with him maintain that position."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67965

[Azumanga Davo]

Our Bulgarian member has voted for Max - I am happy :)

Tell me some statistics of the driving population of Bulgaria and what events your governing body hold thanks.

I daresay it would be small beer compared to other countries events.

Why that allows a vote equal with others escapes me.

[Tazio]

This man is a farce.
I don't think so! This is a farce :p
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34986

[Azumanga Davo]

I don't think so! This is a farce :p
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=34986

See? It's drastically changing the environment as we speak. Action now! :D

[Mickey T]

i really enjoyed that the Vatican has the same voting rights as, say, the UK and the US.

makes the dodgy lack of transparency all the more transparent.

[Dave B]

I can't take Pitpass seriously, their reporting smacks desperately of an organisation trying not to piss off the people who provide their precious media credentials.

How else could you explain:


Despite the best efforts of certain people within
the F1 paddock, aided and abetted by their friends
in the mainstream media, FIA President Max Mosley
has scored a resounding victory in his battle to
keep his job, winning today's crucial vote by 103
votes to 55.

or


In a blatant attempt to sway FIA members ahead of
today's all important Extraordinary General
Meeting - at which Max Mosley's fate will be
decided - Bernie Ecclestone has sent out a clear
warning... vote for Max and you're stuck with him
for another six years. While the rest of us await
not only news of the vote but also the two
investigations into how the News of the World
first got hold of the Mosley sex scandal in the
first place, Bernie Ecclestone has made another
attempt to rock the boat.

Quality journalism? :erm:

[Dave B]

i really enjoyed that the Vatican has the same voting rights as, say, the UK and the US.

Hey, the Vatican could one day be a major player in motorsport. I for one would love to see a Popemobile in the WTCC :p

[Garry Walker]

I applaud this.
Awesome result.



Justice has prevailed.

Really, I can`t but admire how tenacious this man is.

[Knock-on]

I can't take Pitpass seriously, their reporting smacks desperately of an organisation trying not to piss off the people who provide their precious media credentials.

How else could you explain:



or



Quality journalism? :erm:

If Sniff Petrol is the "Daily Sport" of F1, then PitP1ss must be "The Sun".

Does anyone apart from the most sycophantic fan take it seriously? I haven't looked at the bilge for years and feel infinatly better each day :)

[Knock-on]

I applaud this.
Awesome result.



Justice has prevailed.

Really, I can`t but admire how tenacious this man is.

Garry. You have on occassions let slip evidence of cognitive reasoning and intelligence. Admittedly, it's often disguised in some tirade or other but we know you are capable of being insightful, witty and even informed.

Can we get back to that side of you? :p : :D

Whatever the morality of Max, it is immaterial now in the face of the damage his position is bringing to F1. He might be a tenatious old buzzard but that scaresly matters any more. Personally, I think he is a hypocrite and has issues that professional counselling will take years to iron out but that isn't a reason for him to quit. What is a reason is that now his position is untenable and he is persona non gratis around most of F1, He has lost the support of FIA members representing over 3/4 of the bulk of the FIA and is seen as a laughing stock (or worse) by anyone that has heard of him, do you not think he should do the decent thing for the FIA and get the hell out of Dodge.

I ask again, what good is there in him staying on and what can he possibly hope to accomplish?

[BDunnell]

I, for one, hope he stays, because he is the one that did most for F1, like it or not.

This is often said by those who support him, but rarely qualified. Care to expand?

As I have said before, I am uncomfortable with people being forced out of jobs of any sort because of matters in their private lives, because not everyone's personal behaviour goes along with some sort of perceived norm. But the situation with Max Mosley has got completely out of hand and I'm not sure the FIA delegates realise what damage this is doing to the general motorsport 'brand'. Like it or not, the first thing most non-motorsport fans will think whenever they hear the name Max Mosley being mentioned will not be whatever he's done in the job, but 'That's the bloke who was in that video with the Nazi prostitutes'. Sometimes, it becomes impossible for public figures to carry on in these circumstances, and the best course of action is to step aside quietly.

My view that he should now go is based largely upon the ridiculous remarks he made towards the German car manufacturers who called for his resignation, not the original story. Personally, I don't believe in the 'Nazi' element of the story one bit. It's too perfect a fit, given his family heritage. If it can be proved in some way that this element of the story has in some way been concocted, then I will feel he has been rather hard done by. But taking legal action is potentially extremely risky for Mosley. As stated on here by various people, the News of the World must have known about some sort of sexual preferences on his part in order to carry out the sting. These are bound to come out in court.

One final thought. It is said that we live today in generally more liberal times, in which we care less about what everyone gets up to in the privacy of their own homes (or those of others), so long as it doesn't have wider adverse effects. However, when a case like this comes up, we see exactly the opposite — the view that this sort of behaviour is appalling, enough to cost someone their job, etc, etc. If the 'Nazi' bit is true, then I would agree with this. But I don't think it is. If it turns out to have been manufactured for the 'benefit' of the story, then would anyone on here who thinks Mosley should go because of what he got up to change their mind?

[BDunnell]

He has lost the support of FIA members representing over 3/4 of the bulk of the FIA and is seen as a laughing stock (or worse) by anyone that has heard of him

I think the 'laughing stock' thing is probably most important here.

By the way, I hate to bring this up, but I would like to ask whether some people commenting in favour of Mosley would be so tolerant of this behaviour if, say, Ron Dennis had been caught doing something similar?


I ask again, what good is there in him staying on and what can he possibly hope to accomplish?

I agree, none. However, again I must sound a note of caution, in that the fact he's in this position may not be entirely fair. But you are right in saying that he clearly has some difficult personal 'issues' that he ought to sort out.

[Tazio]

I ask again, what good is there in him staying on and what can he possibly hope to accomplish?He will maintain his policy of not paying "protection money", or do "favors" for the Anglo-Mob! :beer:

[ioan]

Tell me some statistics of the driving population of Bulgaria and what events your governing body hold thanks.

I daresay it would be small beer compared to other countries events.

Why that allows a vote equal with others escapes me.

You want to know it? Google it! After all you seem to believe that you are better and deserve more than a fellow Bulgarian. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

By the way, I hate to bring this up, but I would like to ask whether some people commenting in favour of Mosley would be so tolerant of this behaviour if, say, Ron Dennis had been caught doing something similar?


Did you see anyone here dissecting Ron's private life, even though he went through a divorce?
I didn't. And honestly I don't care about his private life. The sexual preferences of other people are of no interest for me.

[BDunnell]

Did you see anyone here dissecting Ron's private life, even though he went through a divorce?
I didn't. And honestly I don't care about his private life. The sexual preferences of other people are of no interest for me.

Fair enough.

[Valve Bounce]

A serious blow to the Anglo-Mafia on this Forum!
Now drop your Knickers and take your spanking like good Puritans!

Is Max still available?

[ArrowsFA1]

I'm astonished that only 14 votes have been cast on this poll.
It's interesting that since the outcome of the FIA EGM was known the number of votes in the forum poll for "I want Max Mosley to go" has increased significantly, whereas the vote "to stay" has increased by just 1.

[MAX_THRUST]

Now he has won this first battle with the FIA he should resign before he has to go......He can not stay in power. Bernie said he was glad he wasn't pushed out with the vote, and that he should go in a dignified manner. Theres nothing diginified in Max Mosely. Surely he can see his time is up and if the manufacturers break away from the FIA, then we are heading down a road that will possibly cause the end of the FIA. All thanks to Happy Spanky, Max Mosely.........

Arrogant fool.

[ioan]

It's interesting that since the outcome of the FIA EGM was known the number of votes in the forum poll for "I want Max Mosley to go" has increased significantly, whereas the vote "to stay" has increased by just 1.

Most people are showing their frustration, much like in the posts!
They didn't give a damn before the vote, then suddenly woke up and got frustrated about the issue. :p :

[ioan]

Bernie said he was glad he wasn't pushed out with the vote...

And you believe him?! :D

[ArrowsFA1]

Interesting stuff from Ed Gorman (http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/2008/05/voting-realitie.html) in The Times (Murdoch paper!!)

It has often been pointed out by "those close to Mosley" that the FIA is not a motoring or sporting governing body so much as a political party with Mosley as its leader.

[truefan72]

Now he has won this first battle with the FIA he should resign before he has to go......He can not stay in power. Bernie said he was glad he wasn't pushed out with the vote, and that he should go in a dignified manner. Theres nothing diginified in Max Mosely. Surely he can see his time is up and if the manufacturers break away from the FIA, then we are heading down a road that will possibly cause the end of the FIA. All thanks to Happy Spanky, Max Mosely.........

Arrogant fool.

:up:

[Big Ben]

I actually agree with Ioan on something. It's silly to make someone leave after being caught in an orgy with 5 hookers... especially after you ignored every sign of incompetence (and there were plenty of them) for so many years. It's good to see that FIA can be consistent in something... being dead wrong all the time.

[Knock-on]

I actually agree with Ioan on something. It's silly to make someone leave after being caught in an orgy with 5 hookers... especially after you ignored every sign of incompetence (and there were plenty of them) for so many years. It's good to see that FIA can be consistent in something... being dead wrong all the time.

Possibly one of the best posts on this thread. Have a Gold star :)

[Azumanga Davo]

You want to know it? Google it! After all you seem to believe that you are better and deserve more than a fellow Bulgarian. :rolleyes:

Let him speak for himself. And how is that powerhouse of all things motorsport Romania? Hardly think a Logan is a winning prospect at the moment...

Oh dear, I've turned into Garry Walker. Get the cross and garlic... :eek:

[pino]

Let him speak for himself. And how is that powerhouse of all things motorsport Romania? Hardly think a Logan is a winning prospect at the moment...

Oh dear, I've turned into Garry Walker. Get the cross and garlic... :eek:

Please keep racism off here, I didn't like your post about Bulgaria, neither do I like this one...

[Azumanga Davo]

Please keep racism off here, I didn't like your post about Bulgaria, neither do I like this one...

Racism? I don't see any. I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question about their respective countries and their activities that allow a vote to count as the same.

[SGWilko]

Please keep racism off here, I didn't like your post about Bulgaria, neither do I like this one...

Am I missing the subliminal racist remark? Likeing a post and not likeing it are hitherto niether here or there, if no forum rules have been broken, surely?

As a mod, you canoot let your personal bias get in the way of your delegated function. :confused:

[A Scotsman]

One shouldn't laugh at this but:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/mosley-to-mount-a-donkey-before-french-grand-prix-20080604997/

[SGWilko]

One shouldn't laugh at this but:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/mosley-to-mount-a-donkey-before-french-grand-prix-20080604997/

Thanks, another keyboard covered in coffee!

Health & Safety will 'jump on him' for incorrect use of a stepladder....... ;)

[Azumanga Davo]

Thanks, another keyboard covered in coffee!

Health & Safety will 'jump on him' for incorrect use of a stepladder....... ;)

PETA will jump on him too about the incorrect use of all objects, I reckon... :s

[Knock-on]

Am I missing the subliminal racist remark? Likeing a post and not likeing it are hitherto niether here or there, if no forum rules have been broken, surely?

As a mod, you canoot let your personal bias get in the way of your delegated function. :confused:

Sorry Pino but I agree.

Can't see any hint of Racism at all and it seems a fair point to compare the comparitive sizes of the Romanian and American / German motoring organisations and their respective improtance to Motorsport in general.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Sorry Pino but I agree.

Can't see any hint of Racism at all and it seems a fair point to compare the comparitive sizes of the Romanian and American / German motoring organisations and their respective improtance to Motorsport in general.

More nationalism than racism in any case. I didn't know Romania and Bulgaria were populated by different "races"...

[ioan]

Am I missing the subliminal racist remark? Likeing a post and not likeing it are hitherto niether here or there, if no forum rules have been broken, surely?

As a mod, you canoot let your personal bias get in the way of your delegated function. :confused:

Does chauvinistic sound any better to you?!
Chauvinist and racist are just the same thing, only the reasons are slightly different.

But let's not get down to Doorslamer's level.

[SGWilko]

Does chauvinistic sound any better to you?!
Chauvinist and racist are just the same thing, only the reasons are slightly different.

But let's not get down to Doorslamer's level.

Oh lordy, here we go again. Enough already.

Monaro Doorslammer was using the various sizes/populations/demographics of different countries to make a fair and valid point.

Ioan, you are always so on the defensive, that you are looking for little 'digs' at you or your country which quite frankly are just not there mate.

The world and his rabbit are not against you, honest. ;)

[Azumanga Davo]

Does chauvinistic sound any better to you?!
Chauvinist and racist are just the same thing, only the reasons are slightly different.

But let's not get down to Doorslamer's level.

Luckily it's nowhere near as low as you can get with some of your wise words.

[Knock-on]

Does chauvinistic sound any better to you?!
Chauvinist and racist are just the same thing, only the reasons are slightly different.

But let's not get down to Doorslamer's level.

Chauvinistic, in the way you are using it, relates to blind patriotism.

I don't think there was any reference to Doorslammers country was there.

The fact you don't agree with his point is no reason to slur the bloke and resort to personal comments is it?

I think that there is a very valid point comparing the size and influence of a representitve member against their voting powers, don't you?

I don't give a Tom Tit what the actual country is, just what power they represent.

If you're looking for anyone on here that is remotely racist in their comments, I suggest you speak with Tazio who dismisses any opinion contray to his as some sort of Ango conspiracy. Quite what the point is that he's trying to make is unclear but he keeps coming out with these rediculous statements.

Now, can we forget the silly accusations and get back to the subject?

[Azumanga Davo]

Chauvinistic, in the way you are using it, relates to blind patriotism.

I don't think there was any reference to Doorslammers country was there.

The fact you don't agree with his point is no reason to slur the bloke and resort to personal comments is it?

I think that there is a very valid point comparing the size and influence of a representitve member against their voting powers, don't you?

I don't give a Tom Tit what the actual country is, just what power they represent.

If you're looking for anyone on here that is remotely racist in their comments, I suggest you speak with Tazio who dismisses any opinion contray to his as some sort of Ango conspiracy. Quite what the point is that he's trying to make is unclear but he keeps coming out with these rediculous statements.

Now, can we forget the silly accusations and get back to the subject?

Quite right. Now f1boat, you may continue...

[BDunnell]

I saw no racism either. Saying that one nation is larger or holds more sway than another is perfectly acceptable. I would say that Swaziland is a smaller player within the international community than is France. I don't consider that to be racist towards Swaziland.

Once again, I think there is a bit of faux outrage going on here based on other disagreements between members.

[SGWilko]

Rule out Switzerland, because by law, you cannot hold a car race there.


I think, and I may be wrong, that Switzerland lifted the ban in '06. Can't for the life of me remember where on Autosport I saw that referred to, might have been in the Journal, discussing Monaco and the downtrend in spending/advertising.

[pino]

Racism? I don't see any. I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question about their respective countries and their activities that allow a vote to count as the same.

Ok it was not racism, but in both posts you were disparaging (kind of) those Countries, and members could be offended, hence my request to you. Case over, now back to the topic please :)

[Azumanga Davo]

I think, and I may be wrong, that Switzerland lifted the ban in '06. Can't for the life of me remember where on Autosport I saw that referred to, might have been in the Journal, discussing Monaco and the downtrend in spending/advertising.

They considered it, it was voted off I believe.

[Bagwan]

The vote's over , guys .
Max won .

There wouldn't have been any discussion about fairness , and percentages , and corruption , if Max was out .
Most here would have cheered that justice was done .

That is my opinion , but closer to fact than most here will admit .


Of course , a few of us will breathe a sigh of relief that justice was , in fact , served here , and breathe another sigh , as we realize this tactic , perhaps in future , will not be seen as an option for such corporate coups .

And , since it was pointed out that Max was paying for the video , there is a theft charge involved as well .
Who will fall , if not Max ?

[BDunnell]

Of course , a few of us will breathe a sigh of relief that justice was , in fact , served here , and breathe another sigh , as we realize this tactic , perhaps in future , will not be seen as an option for such corporate coups .

I don't quite get this. Are you suggesting that people within the FIA who wanted him out colluded in the newspaper sting?

[ArrowsFA1]

Max won.
I think that's the point. Max "won".

Quite what he has won, and others have lost, will unfold in the coming weeks & months.

[F1boat]

You want to know it? Google it! After all you seem to believe that you are better and deserve more than a fellow Bulgarian. :rolleyes:

Bulgaria is a small country, but is full with many drivers and passionate Formula One. Check the Turkish Grand Prix, the Bulgarian fans were thousands, maybe even more that the Turkish ones. Check our wonderful European Rally "Bulgaria". With the small amount of money our federation has, it makes wonders and our vote is no less important than the vote of a western country.

[F1boat]

The vote's over , guys .
Max won .

There wouldn't have been any discussion about fairness , and percentages , and corruption , if Max was out .



Because British pro-McLaren media tries to satanize him and consider that it is appropriate to discriminate an old man about his sexual preferences!

[BDunnell]

Because British pro-McLaren media tries to satanize him and consider that it is appropriate to discriminate an old man about his sexual preferences!

Does this explain the way in which he has been castigated in media all over the world, then, including in Germany? Not everything comes down to some perceived bias.

[ArrowsFA1]

The chairman of the South African governing body of motorsport says he did not agree with the outcome of yesterday's confidence vote against FIA president Max Mosley and is considering joining the clubs contemplating withdrawing from the FIA.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67969

[Knock-on]

Bulgaria is a small country, but is full with many drivers and passionate Formula One. Check the Turkish Grand Prix, the Bulgarian fans were thousands, maybe even more that the Turkish ones. Check our wonderful European Rally "Bulgaria". With the small amount of money our federation has, it makes wonders and our vote is no less important than the vote of a western country.

Well, you have to wonder why Bulgaria is such a hot bed in this discussion.

In terms of size, it is 104th in the world at 111k km2 so pretty substantial with a population of 7,600k

Kazakhstan on the other hand is the 9th largest country in the world at 2,717k km2 but a population of only 15,000k

Both pretty large and just to keep Tazio happy for his Anglo comparison, it is 79th largest at 242k km2 and a population of 60,000k

Should they all get a single vote to reflect their status within the FIA?

How about the two smallest countries in the world? I think these demonstrate the point quite well.

1st, we have a cornerstone of Motorsport in Monaco. It has an area of just 1.95km2, is the 233rd largest (or second smallest if you prefer), country in the world and has a population of 33k. I would argue that they might be worth slightly more in their influence than that the Vatican which is 244th and smallest of countries with a population of 800 and a size of 0.44km2.

The way the FIA is structured makes the Eurovision Song Contest look credible :laugh:

[SGWilko]

The way the FIA is structured makes the Eurovision Song Contest look credible :laugh:

Can we get Mr Terry 'Moleskin slacks' Wogan's opinion on this - he is, after all, an expert on Eurocobblers. ;)

[BDunnell]

One thing to note here is the way in which the vote was also split not just along national lines, but also, to a large extent, between the motorsport federations whose delegates Mosley had tried to gather support from, and the motoring organisations he didn't lobby as extensively. Surely it's time to end the pretence of the FIA being anything other than the governing body of world motorsport, and forget about its more general motoring responsibilities, which could then be hived off to another body?

[W8&C]

Zero tolerance for Nazi-activities!

Let him have his a$$ whipped by dozens of hookers the whole day long if he likes that - thats truely his private stuff (even when this is an unsurpassed embarrasment for a guy acting in publicity - every other heavyweight he has to deal with will ROFL behind his back, none of them can and will truly take him serious anymore).

But making a mockery with Nazi victims is in no way tolerable - so burn him!

[Azumanga Davo]

Heal the divisions? What planet is this guy on....? They only just begun...

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67971

[cjent]

I don't think that MM should be kept around, but the energy crises is already effecting motorsport attendance in the US and it will spread rapidly throughout the world. Thus I think in 5 years it will be a mote point as to who is president of the FIA.

[Bagwan]

I don't quite get this. Are you suggesting that people within the FIA who wanted him out colluded in the newspaper sting?

There are many on the suspect list .

Those responsible will be regretting trying this method .

[BDunnell]

Zero tolerance for Nazi-activities!

Let him have his a$$ whipped by dozens of hookers the whole day long if he likes that - thats truely his private stuff (even when this is an unsurpassed embarrasment for a guy acting in publicity - every other heavyweight he has to deal with will ROFL behind his back, none of them can and will truly take him serious anymore).

But making a mockery with Nazi victims is in no way tolerable - so burn him!

But we don't know whether that element of the story is exactly as reported. As I said before, I find the notion of Mosley requesting that the hookers dress up and act like that rather unbelievable.

It's a difficult question, isn't it — many people think that what the likes of Max get up to in their private lives is OK so long as it's kept private, but when it becomes public against his wishes it causes a problem. I tend to think that these things are either fine or they aren't, whether exposed or not.

[Bagwan]

And , perhaps the only way it might have directly been related to F1 would be to have had the hookers wearing a team's uniforms .
Maybe then it would show bias enough to warrant being turfed .

[Garry Walker]

Garry. You have on occassions let slip evidence of cognitive reasoning and intelligence. Admittedly, it's often disguised in some tirade or other but we know you are capable of being insightful, witty and even informed.

Can we get back to that side of you?

Thanks :D



Whatever the morality of Max, it is immaterial now in the face of the damage his position is bringing to F1. He might be a tenatious old buzzard but that scaresly matters any more. Personally, I think he is a hypocrite and has issues that professional counselling will take years to iron out but that isn't a reason for him to quit. What is a reason is that now his position is untenable and he is persona non gratis around most of F1, He has lost the support of FIA members representing over 3/4 of the bulk of the FIA and is seen as a laughing stock (or worse) by anyone that has heard of him, do you not think he should do the decent thing for the FIA and get the hell out of Dodge.

My post was in many ways directed to the pathetic ways media and some institutions have tried to push him out. They were too weak, too pathetic, to attempt something in the normal situation, but once a completely irrelevant sexual thing came out (I wonder how many here, or how many of those crying about him engage in similar, if not more perverted activities in the free time), they have been like bloodhounds on him.
Make no mistake, they are not trying to push him out because of this scandal, there are much deeper reasons for it. This is only used as an excuse. Ioan earlier did something very unusual for him and actually highlighted a good reason why the big players want him out. It is all about money and him helping the lesser organizations. For me to take these organizations seriously, would require them to try to get rid of him for a reason. Like not doing his job properly.

Whilst the first time since the affair came to light when he was on TV (rally at jordan), I was somewhat amused when I saw him, then now it is time to get back to serious business.

Now, I don`t think he has been a particulary good president and I think he is in many ways responsible for the joke WRC has turned to and some of the rules he has been responsible for in F1 have quite frankly been stuff that someone with Down syndrome would see as idiotic, but he has also done some good things, especially with road safety. But the attacks on him for this sex thing have been unjustified, in my view, and I am happy that he won the vote. Let`s hope he will serve his term and then retire.
That doesn`t mean that I respect him as a person, because anyone having extramarital affairs is nothing but pure **** as a person to me.


I ask again, what good is there in him staying on and what can he possibly hope to accomplish?
To carry on doing the job he was doing before this idiocy came out and then retire.
It will be interesting to see how he will behave from now on and if he will be at Montreal for example at the F1 gp. Because I think he will be and he will make himself be seen as much as possible


Let him speak for himself. And how is that powerhouse of all things motorsport Romania? Hardly think a Logan is a winning prospect at the moment...

Oh dear, I've turned into Garry Walker. Get the cross and garlic... :eek:

LOL. Funny remark, although it has gone over my head why you have "turned" into me.


I saw no racism either. Saying that one nation is larger or holds more sway than another is perfectly acceptable. I would say that Swaziland is a smaller player within the international community than is France. I don't consider that to be racist towards Swaziland.

Once again, I think there is a bit of faux outrage going on here based on other disagreements between members.

No doubt soon someone will point out that you might be a member of KKK for this incredibly hateful post towards Swaziland and its people :D


Zero tolerance for Nazi-activities!


Would you be kind enough to present proof of his nazi-activities :) ?

[Mickey T]

the two countries with 60 percent of the FIA's motoring membership had just two votes.

The 24 motoring organisations who urged him to resign last week represented 86% of motorists worldwide.

It has been calculated that, while he is touting a resounding victory with more than 100 of the 160 clubs, the votes of Max's supporters actually represented just five percent of the world's motoring public:

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_3647896,00.html

This is a mandate with credibility only for those who believe Mugabe didn't lose the Zimbabwe election and that 98 percent of Myanmar's citizens really did vote for the military junta's new constitution.

it doesn't matter whether you regard the catalyst for this as a private matter, because it spilled into a public arena - as it has on countless occasions in business and in politics before. on max's own logic in handling mclaren, the method of that spillage is not relevant.

once in the public arena it began damaging the sport in ways mclaren never did.

he is a obviously a good enough politician to win this vote, and he chose to exercise this ability without regard to any reasonable judgements of whether or not it was the right thing to do by the FIA in the long term.

political ability as a weapon used without judgement or regard for the consequences of his victory.

That is precisely the reason most people here regard him as unfit for the position.

[Tazio]

Because British pro-McLaren media tries to satanize him and consider that it is appropriate to discriminate an old man about his sexual preferences!Very true!
And the tenticals of the Anglo-Mafia know no boundries! I have it on good authority,
that they want Max "Sanctioned" This of course will be handled by a "Pro."

[hmmm - donuts]

Well, you have to wonder why Bulgaria is such a hot bed in this discussion.




Guess this is because they have a WRC round in either 2009 or 2010 (can't remember which) and opposing Max is probably a sure way of losing it.

Regards

[hmmm - donuts]

Might be an interesting read - BBC's Panorama investigation of FIA/FOM/FOCA Etc...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/audio_video/programmes/panorama/transcripts/transcript_16_11_98.txt

...some of text doesn't quite line up but you'll get the gist

Regards

[BDunnell]

The 24 motoring organisations who urged him to resign last week represented 86% of motorists worldwide.

Which comes back to what I was saying about the position of the motoring organisations within the FIA. Surely this is now pointless?



This is a mandate with credibility only for those who believe Mugabe didn't lose the Zimbabwe election and that 98 percent of Myanmar's citizens really did vote for the military junta's new constitution.

:laugh:



it doesn't matter whether you regard the catalyst for this as a private matter, because it spilled into a public arena - as it has on countless occasions in business and in politics before.

On this, I'm afraid I disagree. If you extend this reasoning, surely public figures would have to declare everything they get up to in private before being caught, and thus have no private lives at all? I don't see why the rights or wrongs of what you get up to in private should suddenly change if you are a public figure and you get caught.

I believe that prominent individuals are entitled to some degree of privacy, and that only when it's in the public interest to know should it be made public — for example, a politician being against gay rights while secretly having gay affairs. OK, so Max took the moral high ground over McLaren last year and is now known to not apply this to his personal life (though, again, that's only when his behaviour is measured against society's perceived norms), but it's a bit of a leap from one to the other.



once in the public arena it began damaging the sport in ways mclaren never did.

I very much agree with you there.



he is a obviously a good enough politician to win this vote, and he chose to exercise this ability without regard to any reasonable judgements of whether or not it was the right thing to do by the FIA in the long term.

political ability as a weapon used without judgement or regard for the consequences of his victory.

That is precisely the reason most people here regard him as unfit for the position.

Hence, basically, why I think he should go, although he may well have been treated unfairly by the News of the World. His subsequent actions are simply not acceptable — worse, in my view, than the original 'offence'.

[F1boat]

Well, you have to wonder why Bulgaria is such a hot bed in this discussion.

In terms of size, it is 104th in the world at 111k km2 so pretty substantial with a population of 7,600k

Kazakhstan on the other hand is the 9th largest country in the world at 2,717k km2 but a population of only 15,000k

Both pretty large and just to keep Tazio happy for his Anglo comparison, it is 79th largest at 242k km2 and a population of 60,000k

Should they all get a single vote to reflect their status within the FIA?

How about the two smallest countries in the world? I think these demonstrate the point quite well.

1st, we have a cornerstone of Motorsport in Monaco. It has an area of just 1.95km2, is the 233rd largest (or second smallest if you prefer), country in the world and has a population of 33k. I would argue that they might be worth slightly more in their influence than that the Vatican which is 244th and smallest of countries with a population of 800 and a size of 0.44km2.

The way the FIA is structured makes the Eurovision Song Contest look credible :laugh:

What you suggest will ensure domination of India and China in FIA ;)

[Garry Walker]

What you suggest will ensure domination of India and China in FIA ;)

Yep.
Lets consider a situation, where every country in world is a member of FIA, what would it be then? Around 220 countries? We have a vote.
The 7 most populated countries all put together ( China, India, Pakistan, USA, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Brazil ) make over 52% of worlds population and could outvote everyone. Do you think that is fair?
China and India on themselves make almost 40% of all votes. Is that fair?

[BDunnell]

Yep.
Lets consider a situation, where every country in world is a member of FIA, what would it be then? Around 220 countries? We have a vote.
The 7 most populated countries all put together ( China, India, Pakistan, USA, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Brazil ) make over 52% of worlds population and could outvote everyone. Do you think that is fair?
China and India on themselves make almost 40% of all votes. Is that fair?

I quite agree. To be honest, this part of it is a side issue. Huge supra-national organisations of any sort can never hope to be totally democratic in this way.

[Garry Walker]

I quite agree. To be honest, this part of it is a side issue. Huge supra-national organisations of any sort can never hope to be totally democratic in this way.

Already Platon thought that Democracy is the worst possible form of ruling a country, with the exception of Tyranny. Aristotle referred to Democracy as one of the three "bad" ways of forms of country.

:D

[Mickey T]

What you suggest will ensure domination of India and China in FIA ;)

the population or the population density is irrelevant to a fair and democratic vote.

what he is suggesting is that there should be representation with some weighting towards the number of motorists, not the number of people, given that the FIA - and by extension, Max - purports to represent the world's motorists.

a democratic voting process to achieve pro-rata representation for the world's motorists is a very different thing from a voting process to achieve the voting outcome Mosley wanted.

as has been written here before, the number of motorists in china and india might be growing but is, at present, negligible compared to those in the US, Germany, Canada, the UK, France, Spain, Japan, Italy etc.

[Valve Bounce]

A Ruling Council within the FIA is required to control on the direction of motorsport. Countries which have an active participation in international events such as World Championship Rallying, F1, Champcars or whatever it has evolved into these days, and so on should vote on matters concerning the running of the FIA. Countries which have no active participation in International events (including the hosting of such events) would have no say.

So countries like Italy, Germany, France, and the UK which holds International events, as well as having teams in F1 would be the ideal candidate.


The other extreme would be Burma which has nothing to do with International Motorsports of any kind.

If this idea fails, and I am sure it will, then the countries which have a vested and high monetary interest in F1 will pull out of the FIA so that they can control their destiny.

[W8&C]

..
It's a difficult question, isn't it — many people think that what the likes of Max get up to in their private lives is OK so long as it's kept private, but when it becomes public against his wishes it causes a problem. I tend to think that these things are either fine or they aren't, whether exposed or not.Take crimes as an analogy:

as long as the crook can keep his e.g. robberies „private“ everything and everyone ´s cool. But wait `til the delicts become public... Nontheless its illegal in both cases. I guess its fundamental that one can only react to and deal with things when he gets knowledge of them.

[Mickey T]

On this, I'm afraid I disagree. I don't see why the rights or wrongs of what you get up to in private should suddenly change if you are a public figure and you get caught.

I believe that prominent individuals are entitled to some degree of privacy, and that only when it's in the public interest to know should it be made public — for example, a politician being against gay rights while secretly having gay affairs.

for you and me, you are right and it probably isn't relevant. For someone in max's position, it is.

I'll explain why i think so.

Max's job entails basically two things. motorsport and some road-safety initiatives.

to gets these jobs done requires the complicity of governments and big business.

if the government of the day is democratically elected, then the electorate will usually have a "moral majority" of conservative voters who will be appalled at Mosley's behaviour.

if this slice of the constituency is not happy with the government maintaining its dealings with a man whose morals they find questionable, then the government is placed in an awkward position.

similarly, if it's an individual politician, are they going to risk taking a road-safety decision that's right for the public if it gives that same public a tangible link between him/herself and mosley, especially in an election year?

there is also the risk that the politicians or senior bureaucrats themselves, in whatever slice of government mosley's FIA is trying to convince, are conservative and will make their personal morals part of their overall decision-making processes.

if it's a national figurehead, there is simply no way the British Queen, the Spanish King or princes from Bahrain or Monaco are ever going to let themselves be photographed with Mosley again. and that rules out Max's future as a "figurehead" president of the FIA.

If it's not a democracy, max will still need to deal with the moral opinions of one man or several men/women. given their positions, you have to assume they will have political strength to at least approach max's, but unlike max, they still need to answer to somebody.

If a government is being asked to invest millions of taxpayer dollars to host a sporting event or entertain a road-safety initiative (eg, building an NCAP test centre), do you really think they won't be worried about their constituents making a link between max's personal morals and his professional morals?

similarly in business, it will not be enough for max to be cleared of the nazi connotations in court, because enough customers already have heard it and believe it.

that being the case, if you're a business wanting to sell into a country where the worst nazi-related activities occured (germany, austria, hungary, poland, russia, romania), you will not want any taint of that stain on your current activities.

and, when two of the six manufacturers in your premier category have wartime business activities that benefited from such activities, don't be surprised if they are shuddering with discomfort, and that this discomfort will have repercussions internally and externally. By WWII alliance, four of the six works teams have an association here.

Benz and BMW (and, as a senior DTM runner, Audi) will have already done studies to measure how many sales they will directly lose for this reason if one of their senior people is photographed with Mosley.

and how do you think it is with Force India's sponsorship and credibility? India is a country where a broadcasting a public kiss is considered insulting to women...

even in companies who support F1 financially, there will be repercussions. Board members will be grilled by any shareholder offended by his personal actions and they will, in turn, grill any senior manager who approved the $30 million sponsorship arrangement with, for example, an F1 team.

once this sort of personal activity spills into the public arena, it is not unreasonable for people to wonder whether he operates so far from the moral and ethical norm in his professional life as well.

but it is mostly because his very being there and being associated with the FIA's management will make decision makers from all sides of the FIA's life uncomfortable - sometimes with reconciling their association with their own standards, sometimes with their spouse's opinions, sometimes with the people they are answerable to in business or politics.

this is why people resign immediately when these sorts of scandals break. it's not because what they've done is right or wrong. it's because the knowledge makes life incredibly uncomfortable and awkward for the people they have to deal with in their business lives. and that makes business and/or politics harder to maintain.

it's something that's done out of respect for the continued effective functioning of the organisation you work for, the organisations you work with and the people in both.

and max doesn't seem to have it.

[ArrowsFA1]

It will be interesting to see how he will behave from now on and if he will be at Montreal for example at the F1 gp. Because I think he will be and he will make himself be seen as much as possible
I read on Autosport (can't find the link now) that Max would not attend a GP until July or August. It seems as if his deputies will be undertaking many of the FIA President's public duties from now on.

A Ruling Council within the FIA is required to control on the direction of motorsport.
I think it is certainly time to reverse the merger of motorsport and motoring activities that was done when Max became FIA President.

Montezemolo: Mosley should quit

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has added his voice to the debate surrounding Max Mosley, calling the FIA president to stand down from his role despite winning a vote of confidence from the governing body's General Assembly.

"I believe he himself should understand that at times it is necessary to say 'I must leave the place for reasons of credibility'."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67977

[BDunnell]

Take crimes as an analogy:

as long as the crook can keep his e.g. robberies „private“ everything and everyone ´s cool. But wait `til the delicts become public... Nontheless its illegal in both cases. I guess its fundamental that one can only react to and deal with things when he gets knowledge of them.

But someone's private sexual behaviour may very well not be illegal.

[SGWilko]

But someone's private sexual behaviour may very well not be illegal.

But it becomes the question of their suitability for the job, doesn't it.

Like having a homophobic minister responsible for the law on same sex partnerships.

Or a racist in charge of immigration....

[Knock-on]

the population or the population density is irrelevant to a fair and democratic vote.

what he is suggesting is that there should be representation with some weighting towards the number of motorists, not the number of people, given that the FIA - and by extension, Max - purports to represent the world's motorists.

a democratic voting process to achieve pro-rata representation for the world's motorists is a very different thing from a voting process to achieve the voting outcome Mosley wanted.

as has been written here before, the number of motorists in china and india might be growing but is, at present, negligible compared to those in the US, Germany, Canada, the UK, France, Spain, Japan, Italy etc.


Thanks Micky. Spot on.

There will be a time where the motoring organisations of China and India do indeed rank them as dominant players. Even now, they are becoming significant and therefore require appropiate recognition.

However, I cannot see how organisations like the AAA command the same recognition and power as the Vatican in the FIA.

[ioan]

But it becomes the question of their suitability for the job, doesn't it.

Like having a homophobic minister responsible for the law on same sex partnerships.

Or a racist in charge of immigration....

The FIA isn't in charge of any of those activities. :p :

[SGWilko]

The FIA isn't in charge of any of those activities. :p :

Doh! :laugh: But the analogy is the point I was making. :)

[ioan]

Ioan earlier did something very unusual for him and actually highlighted a good reason why the big players want him out. It is all about money and him helping the lesser organizations.

I'm also impressed with the fact that you finally found reason in one of my posts! :p :
Jokes aside, I'm glad to see there are people who think but I'm also sad to see that only one other person around here did understand what this was all about, although the comments of the Dutch representative were quoted a few times in this thread.

People mostly post here because they are in rage, because their emotions, so masterfully controlled by the media, push them to express their frustrations. However very few did try to think about what exactly was the reason behind the votes cast Tuesday.

[Valve Bounce]

I'm also impressed with the fact that you finally found reason in one of my posts! :p :
Jokes aside, I'm glad to see there are people who think but I'm also sad to see that only one other person around here did understand what this was all about, although the comments of the Dutch representative were quoted a few times in this thread.

People mostly post here because they are in rage, because their emotions, so masterfully controlled by the media, push them to express their frustrations. However very few did try to think about what exactly was the reason behind the votes cast Tuesday.

A whiparound for Max's defence? :D :D :rotflmao:

[ioan]

Man you're incorrigible! :D

[BDunnell]

But it becomes the question of their suitability for the job, doesn't it.

Like having a homophobic minister responsible for the law on same sex partnerships.

Or a racist in charge of immigration....

In what way does Mosley's sexual behaviour in itself affect his ability to carry out his FIA role? If we leave out the as yet unproven Nazi element, I don't see the two things as being linked in such a way as the examples you describe where there is a definite 'conflict of interests'.

[BDunnell]

I'm also impressed with the fact that you finally found reason in one of my posts! :p :
Jokes aside, I'm glad to see there are people who think but I'm also sad to see that only one other person around here did understand what this was all about, although the comments of the Dutch representative were quoted a few times in this thread.

People mostly post here because they are in rage, because their emotions, so masterfully controlled by the media, push them to express their frustrations. However very few did try to think about what exactly was the reason behind the votes cast Tuesday.

But do you not agree that a large element of embarrassment about Max's behaviour, and some genuinely-held views about it being unacceptable, also came into it?

[ioan]

But do you not agree that a large element of embarrassment about Max's behaviour, and some genuinely-held views about it being unacceptable, also came into it?

People hate him or like him depending on what they read about him, not based on what they know about his work.
Most around here have little knowledge about what he did good or wrong for F1. Everything that is bad in F1 is Max's fault, even if in reality it is Bernie's, the teams' or another third party's fault.

Views are based mostly on fiction, that's the problem. People just jump on the bandwagon without actually taking their time to search for data and analyze it.

This is my view.

[BDunnell]

People hate him or like him depending on what they read about him, not based on what they know about his work.
Most around here have little knowledge about what he did good or wrong for F1. Everything that is bad in F1 is Max's fault, even if in reality it is Bernie's, the teams' or another third party's fault.

Views are based mostly on fiction, that's the problem. People just jump on the bandwagon without actually taking their time to search for data and analyze it.

This is my view.

But surely you can understand why some people who know perfectly well what he's done in his job over the years find the newspaper story so distasteful that it has changed their view of him to such an extent that they don't think he can continue? Not everyone with a vote, nor everyone expressing an opinion on the subject, necessarily bases this opinion on wider motives. You must also remember that there are many people who are very conservative when it comes to reports of sexual behaviour, and immediately think that anything of this nature is revolting. I'm not one of them, mind.

[BDunnell]

for you and me, you are right and it probably isn't relevant. For someone in max's position, it is.

I absolutely see where you're coming from, but why should being in the public eye mean that you have to alter your... er, shall we say, personal tastes just because you might end up getting caught by a tabloid newspaper?

[Knock-on]

Might be an interesting read - BBC's Panorama investigation of FIA/FOM/FOCA Etc...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/audio_video/programmes/panorama/transcripts/transcript_16_11_98.txt

...some of text doesn't quite line up but you'll get the gist

Regards

This really is quite amazing.

ioan, in reference to your last post, what do you say to this?

[ioan]

But surely you can understand why some people who know perfectly well what he's done in his job over the years find the newspaper story so distasteful that it has changed their view of him to such an extent that they don't think he can continue?

Unless they are some hypocrite puritans I can't understand them.

[SGWilko]

In what way does Mosley's sexual behaviour in itself affect his ability to carry out his FIA role? If we leave out the as yet unproven Nazi element, I don't see the two things as being linked in such a way as the examples you describe where there is a definite 'conflict of interests'.

It's the mental state of such people, their ability to allow their sexual pursuation cloud their judgement. (If his wife had no idea what he was up to, does that make it OK). That is what I am bleating about.

[ioan]

This really is quite amazing.

ioan, in reference to your last post, what do you say to this?

I'll give it a read when I have enough time, it looks quite long.

I read a bit and I see someone agrees that it's good that Bernie is working like a dictator. In the same time I recall how people called Max a "bad" dictator (compared to Bernie) for pushing some rules through.

I'll answer you question as soon as I have read the article.

[ioan]

It's the mental state of such people, their ability to allow their sexual pursuation cloud their judgement. (If his wife had no idea what he was up to, does that make it OK). That is what I am bleating about.

What?
I hope you aren't trying to tell us that you don't think about sex. Or that when it happens it will cloud your judgement. :rolleyes:

[ArrowsFA1]

People hate him or like him depending on what they read about him, not based on what they know about his work.
Most around here have little knowledge about what he did good or wrong for F1. Everything that is bad in F1 is Max's fault, even if in reality it is Bernie's, the teams' or another third party's fault.

Views are based mostly on fiction, that's the problem. People just jump on the bandwagon without actually taking their time to search for data and analyze it.
Leaving aside views expressed on this forum, do you argue that the many voices calling for Max's resignation, both before and after the EGM vote, "hate him or like him depending on what they read about him" or that their views are based on fiction?

[SGWilko]

What?
I hope you aren't trying to tell us that you don't think about sex. Or that when it happens it will cloud your judgement. :rolleyes:

Ioan, get with the plot here. I am a bloke, so the statistic is that I think about sex every 7 seconds or something.

The difference here is that, I do not go organising, and paying for prostitutes, I am not into Bondage or any form of S&M. I can rationalise it and deal with it.

Sorry, but I respect and love not only my wife, but my family way too much to betray and cheat on them in such a way.

I am no saint, I, like the next bloke, will 'knock one out' when the urge calls for it and the wife has a headache ;) , but sick and vile behaviour is not my bag, so that is why I see Max as I do.

[Knock-on]

Thanks :D


My post was in many ways directed to the pathetic ways media and some institutions have tried to push him out. They were too weak, too pathetic, to attempt something in the normal situation, but once a completely irrelevant sexual thing came out (I wonder how many here, or how many of those crying about him engage in similar, if not more perverted activities in the free time), they have been like bloodhounds on him.
Make no mistake, they are not trying to push him out because of this scandal, there are much deeper reasons for it. This is only used as an excuse. Ioan earlier did something very unusual for him and actually highlighted a good reason why the big players want him out. It is all about money and him helping the lesser organizations. For me to take these organizations seriously, would require them to try to get rid of him for a reason. Like not doing his job properly.

Whilst the first time since the affair came to light when he was on TV (rally at jordan), I was somewhat amused when I saw him, then now it is time to get back to serious business.

Now, I don`t think he has been a particulary good president and I think he is in many ways responsible for the joke WRC has turned to and some of the rules he has been responsible for in F1 have quite frankly been stuff that someone with Down syndrome would see as idiotic, but he has also done some good things, especially with road safety. But the attacks on him for this sex thing have been unjustified, in my view, and I am happy that he won the vote. Let`s hope he will serve his term and then retire.
That doesn`t mean that I respect him as a person, because anyone having extramarital affairs is nothing but pure **** as a person to me.





:up:

That's pretty similar to my views.

I would say that I found the whole Nazi orgy stuff pretty distasteful but whatever people get up to behind closed doors should be up to them as long as they don't hurt anyone (that doesn't ask for a good thrashing of course ;) )

However, it isn't behind closed doors any more. Rightly or wrongly, it's all over the Tabloids and has caused international issues. As the prime representative of the FIA, it is seen as not acceptable behavior has affected his credibility, I would argue, irrevocably.

He can no longer perform his role

The problem is as well that he is seen to have abused his position now by “fixing” the vote. I don’t know it is all about money as ioan claims but it is almost undeniably an issue. Deeper than that though is power and Max has organized the FIA in such a way as to hold a seat of power built not on solid foundations but on very shaky ones. Virtually insignificant members have as much power as the largest organizations and this has created a sham. It’s obvious that the smaller members will vote for Max when he gives them such control and equally obvious that the more powerful members are disgusted.

He no longer has the support of 90% real powerbase in the FIA

Lastly, stories are emerging with alarming regularity pertaining to dubious decisions that suggest an element of underhand dealing, questionable financial decisions, anti-competitive practices, championship fixing for material reasons and incompetence (at best) etc

All of these have been documented and to me confirm that the FIA and F1 will be best served by Max’s departure.

I accept your point about the media buy feel that it was a good excuse to get rid of this man rather than a good reason.

[ShiftingGears]

It's the mental state of such people, their ability to allow their sexual pursuation cloud their judgement. (If his wife had no idea what he was up to, does that make it OK). That is what I am bleating about.

I don't see how the fact he was involved in a bondage orgy affects his ability to do his job. His private life is his own, and he is a free man.

[BDunnell]

It's the mental state of such people, their ability to allow their sexual pursuation cloud their judgement. (If his wife had no idea what he was up to, does that make it OK). That is what I am bleating about.

I'm a little unclear here. Is there some behavioural norm to which we should all subscribe, then? Should anyone who uses a prostitute resign from their job because it must cloud their judgment?

[SGWilko]

I'm a little unclear here. Is there some behavioural norm to which we should all subscribe, then? Should anyone who uses a prostitute resign from their job because it must cloud their judgment?

If you cannot be trusted by those closest to you, and who you really ought to hold most dear to you, or you care not for them, how can you be expected be trustworthy, respectful, truthful and honest in business, dealing with people who you feel nothing for....?

Behavioural norms are normally controlled by laws are they not in many circles of life?

[BDunnell]

My post was in many ways directed to the pathetic ways media and some institutions have tried to push him out. They were too weak, too pathetic, to attempt something in the normal situation, but once a completely irrelevant sexual thing came out (I wonder how many here, or how many of those crying about him engage in similar, if not more perverted activities in the free time), they have been like bloodhounds on him.
Make no mistake, they are not trying to push him out because of this scandal, there are much deeper reasons for it. This is only used as an excuse. Ioan earlier did something very unusual for him and actually highlighted a good reason why the big players want him out. It is all about money and him helping the lesser organizations. For me to take these organizations seriously, would require them to try to get rid of him for a reason. Like not doing his job properly.

Whilst the first time since the affair came to light when he was on TV (rally at jordan), I was somewhat amused when I saw him, then now it is time to get back to serious business.

Now, I don`t think he has been a particulary good president and I think he is in many ways responsible for the joke WRC has turned to and some of the rules he has been responsible for in F1 have quite frankly been stuff that someone with Down syndrome would see as idiotic, but he has also done some good things, especially with road safety. But the attacks on him for this sex thing have been unjustified, in my view, and I am happy that he won the vote. Let`s hope he will serve his term and then retire.

Very good post. My view on this has altered somewhat since the affair began, because on reflection he may well have been hard done-by on the part of the News of the World, and it again raises all sorts of questions about the privacy of individuals.

However, it is a very difficult situation (not least morally) because, as Knock-on says, like it or not it has become public. I don't necessarily think this is good and fair, but this is where we are. And since it came into the public domain, I think Mosley's handling of the situation has been pretty awful. His comments towards the German car manufacturers were unacceptable (far more hypocritical, one might say, than his sexual behaviour) and I think the FIA has been made to look like a very grubby political organisation, rather than just a motoring federation. The same could often be said of many other sporting bodies, the murkier sides of whose affairs are well documented. Maybe it's time for a 'root and branch' reform when Max goes. Back to basics, anyone?

[BDunnell]

If you cannot be trusted by those closest to you, and who you really ought to hold most dear to you, or you care not for them, how can you be expected be trustworthy, respectful, truthful and honest in business, dealing with people who you feel nothing for....?

Behavioural norms are normally controlled by laws are they not in many circles of life?

Ah, so you're referring more to extra-marital activities, rather than those of single people?

Personally, I think the link between behaviour in one area of your life and others is a bit tenuous.

[SGWilko]

Ah, so you're referring more to extra-marital activities, rather than those of single people?

Personally, I think the link between behaviour in one area of your life and others is a bit tenuous.

I am just trying - without much success....... ;) - to articulate how the thought process in such individuals work.

[Knock-on]

I think we should get off individual morality before Pino chokes on his Pizza :D

[SGWilko]

I think we should get off individual morality before Pino chokes on his Pizza :D

Individual morality has an awful lot to do with the state we find our country in at the moment. It is a sad but true fact that they [morals] seem to count for nothing, and not very many people seem to care. :(

[ArrowsFA1]

However, it is a very difficult situation (not least morally) because, as Knock-on says, like it or not it has become public. I don't necessarily think this is good and fair, but this is where we are. And since it came into the public domain, I think Mosley's handling of the situation has been pretty awful.
Absolutely :up: and IMHO he should resign for no other reason than that.

[BDunnell]

Individual morality has an awful lot to do with the state we find our country in at the moment. It is a sad but true fact that they [morals] seem to count for nothing, and not very many people seem to care. :(

I don't see this as being a particular problem. Certain problems (albeit often overstated by the media, and thus inflated in the minds of the public) may exist in society now that weren't previously the case, but are strange sexual preferences at the root of our ills? I somehow doubt it.

[ioan]

Ioan, get with the plot here. I am a bloke, so the statistic is that I think about sex every 7 seconds or something.

The difference here is that, I do not go organising, and paying for prostitutes, I am not into Bondage or any form of S&M. I can rationalise it and deal with it.

Sorry, but I respect and love not only my wife, but my family way too much to betray and cheat on them in such a way.

I am no saint, I, like the next bloke, will 'knock one out' when the urge calls for it and the wife has a headache ;) , but sick and vile behaviour is not my bag, so that is why I see Max as I do.

Look, I see your point, but I disagree with it.

The difference between having a wife or a girlfriend is only a piece of paper.
Going further, most of the married people cheat on their beloved wife/husband. The reasons are very different and i won't list them cause you never know who can be offended.

Point is that people go to prostitutes for different reasons, but this isn't clouding their judgement, not in their work and often not even in their relationship/marriage. The two of them have nothing to do the one with the other, and shouldn't be mixed.
Just because someone cheats on his wife because that gives him the kick he needs doesn't mean that he isn't a trustworthy person in th eother aspects of his life.

[BDunnell]

Point is that people go to prostitutes for different reasons, but this isn't clouding their judgement, not in their work and often not even in their relationship/marriage. The two of them have nothing to do the one with the other, and shouldn't be mixed.
Just because someone cheats on his wife because that gives him the kick he needs doesn't mean that he isn't a trustworthy person in th eother aspects of his life.

:up:

If it's because they have some sort of psychological problem, I think this should provoke some degree of sympathy towards them, rather than anger, even though these situations are always awful for those involved.

[SGWilko]

Look, I see your point, but I disagree with it.

The difference between having a wife or a girlfriend is only a piece of paper.
Going further, most of the married people cheat on their beloved wife/husband. The reasons are very different and i won't list them cause you never know who can be offended.

Point is that people go to prostitutes for different reasons, but this isn't clouding their judgement, not in their work and often not even in their relationship/marriage. The two of them have nothing to do the one with the other, and shouldn't be mixed.
Just because someone cheats on his wife because that gives him the kick he needs doesn't mean that he isn't a trustworthy person in th eother aspects of his life.

Fair play mate. I do not expect everyone to hold my, perhaps outdated and/or old fashioned, beliefs. But to go through the process of marrying someone only to cheat on the very ethic behind such a union is to me quite alien.

[SGWilko]

:up:

If it's because they have some sort of psychological problem, I think this should provoke some degree of sympathy towards them, rather than anger, even though these situations are always awful for those involved.

Now you are barking up my tree! The sympathy may well be genuine, but you can't say someone with such issues can differentiate how they will affect them in either business OR pleasure, can you?

[BDunnell]

Now you are barking up my tree! The sympathy may well be genuine, but you can't say someone with such issues can differentiate how they will affect them in either business OR pleasure, can you?

No, but likewise one can't say for sure that they will.

[SGWilko]

No, but likewise one can't say for sure that they will.

But the seeds of doubt are well and truly sewn now though......

[ArrowsFA1]

"For me it's a difficult situation because I run the Formula One Group of companies, and the teams - the manufacturers - are violently opposed to him.

"I knew he would win (the vote), there was no way he could lose. But I still don't think it's good for him, or for the FIA, to be honest. He said he wanted to finish at the end of 2007, and then the end of this year, before all this happened.

"What highlights the problem he may still face is what happened in Monaco. Prince Albert made it very clear that he did not want him on the grid, and that he would have security around him so that if Max did appear they could not be seen together."

"I've always said that Max will be the president until he dies," he added. "What many people don't understand is that he enjoys confrontation. He likes argument, these things stimulate him."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67985

[ioan]

And as much as Mosley enjoys confrontation and argument, Bernie hates this and is afraid of a confrontation with Max now that he stays.