Qualification contingencies

[mileman]

Long range weather is showing possible rain for Saturday through Monday, May 19. What's the procedure if they don't get it in on the weekend? Would there still be two more days of quals...one being a "bump day?" Weather could create a major headache for the teams not in the top 11, with a minimal race setup time.

[!!WALDO!!]

Long range weather is showing possible rain for Saturday through Monday, May 19. What's the procedure if they don't get it in on the weekend? Would there still be two more days of quals...one being a "bump day?" Weather could create a major headache for the teams not in the top 11, with a minimal race setup time.

Lets say at the end of Saturday, 29 cars have qualified and Sunday is a wash out. Then those 29 are locked in and the final 4 spots will fight it out with only bumping occuring between those cars. More than likely the three attempt rule will be tossed in favor of 1. THIS IS ONLY IF QUALIFYING SPILLS OVER 6:00PM Sunday or MONDAY. (With so few cars they may accept all qualifiers that can post a time.)

If the field is full on Saturday and gets rained out on Sunday, it is over.


(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[gofastandwynn]

Long range weather is showing possible rain for Saturday through Monday, May 19. What's the procedure if they don't get it in on the weekend? Would there still be two more days of quals...one being a "bump day?" Weather could create a major headache for the teams not in the top 11, with a minimal race setup time.

In years past the rules were that they qualify on Monday but the guys already qualified were locked in and could not be bumped, so the field would just be filled. For example if 31 cars qualified bythe final Saturday and it rained on Sunday, the the remaining cars would run for the last 2 spots only.

[Phoenixent]

They need to go back to the way it was. Fill the field as much as possible the first weekend. This eleven spots on saturday and eleven on sunday is BS. This two years of the same thing were teams a screwed if they don't make the first eleven because they need to keep the qual setup on the cars for another week. Gives no time to adjust for the race.

[DrDomm]

They need to go back to the way it was. Fill the field as much as possible the first weekend. This eleven spots on saturday and eleven on sunday is BS. This two years of the same thing were teams a screwed if they don't make the first eleven because they need to keep the qual setup on the cars for another week. Gives no time to adjust for the race.

I don't think it's BS. It basically creates 3 poledays/bumpdays. Unfortunately, weather got in the way. Seems like it does every year, though.

[Phoenixent]

I don't think it's BS. It basically creates 3 poledays/bumpdays. Unfortunately, weather got in the way. Seems like it does every year, though.


If the weather effects it every year then it's BS. I can understand it hype but then change it so the teams effected can use the week after bumpday for setups and not Friday before the race. Getting ready for Indy is all about the details and one day next week for setting up the car for 500 miles is a dumb idea.

[!!WALDO!!]

If the weather effects it every year then it's BS. I can understand it hype but then change it so the teams effected can use the week after bumpday for setups and not Friday before the race. Getting ready for Indy is all about the details and one day next week for setting up the car for 500 miles is a dumb idea.

It is interesting that in 1996 when a Penske/George peace deal was made it was Adam Saal, CART Communications Director that said the following after the 24 to 1 no vote.
"We are not going back to Indianapolis under these conditions. There is no need for a whole month there. We want to practice on Saturday and Sunday, qualify on Monday and Tuesday and practice on Thursday and race on Sunday. 8 days total rather than 30 days."
Even 12 years ago, set ups were in the books. Many years ago and I mean many, yes it required a set up for 3 plus hours as the cars that won did not change rubber during the race in the 2 to 3 stops. So your set up held or you didn't win. Today with 8 to 10 pit stops there is plenty of time to try things.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[Phoenixent]

Many years ago and I mean many, yes it required a set up for 3 plus hours as the cars that won did not change rubber during the race in the 2 to 3 stops. So your set up held or you didn't win. Today with 8 to 10 pit stops there is plenty of time to try things.

I mean the small details and the double and triple checks on the car itself. You can wrench on a car during the race and get it close. If luck is on your side you might win. But that time between first and second weekend qualify is valuable to the teams and drivers. In 1988 Penske had one team car they used for fuel runs every day with all three drivers running it. That's the details that win races. Back then the first weekend would be put as many cars as possible into the field with the second weekend used to fill it out and then bump. Teams that are in this Glorious top eleven now will start tuning race setup this week. Something is not quite right about it as these other teams will have to still search for a setup to get in depending on the weather.

It is still dumb with eleven a day if the weather is perfect. But the is Indy and the weather has always been junk in the month of May. Hit and Miss Weather.

[!!WALDO!!]

I mean the small details and the double and triple checks on the car itself. You can wrench on a car during the race and get it close. If luck is on your side you might win. But that time between first and second weekend qualify is valuable to the teams and drivers. In 1988 Penske had one team car they used for fuel runs every day with all three drivers running it. That's the details that win races. Back then the first weekend would be put as many cars as possible into the field with the second weekend used to fill it out and then bump. Teams that are in this Glorious top eleven now will start tuning race setup this week. Something is not quite right about it as these other teams will have to still search for a setup to get in depending on the weather.

It is still dumb with eleven a day if the weather is perfect. But the is Indy and the weather has always been junk in the month of May. Hit and Miss Weather.

In 1988 Penske took all three cars the MIS and ran 500 miles between qualifying and race day. There are details for you.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[Alexamateo]

I would modify it like this:

I like the pole day now where you can withdraw your speed and try to post a faster lap. It's almost like a bubble day but with top cars.What they should do is lock in those 11 cars, and then pay a purse almost like it's another race (which it is).

Then for later days let them do like Nascar used to do, if you wanted to, you could stand on your previous time, but if you think you could improve your spot, withdraw that time and go for it. Regardless, there should be a monetary bonus for the fastest that make actual qualifying runs. Go on and lock 22 after day 2, but if you're 12th after day one or 23rd after day 2, you don't have to risk the car on another banzai run, but of course you would lose any bonus for that particular day.

[Vegasguy]

It is interesting that in 1996 when a Penske/George peace deal was made it was Adam Saal, CART Communications Director that said the following after the 24 to 1 no vote.
"We are not going back to Indianapolis under these conditions. There is no need for a whole month there. We want to practice on Saturday and Sunday, qualify on Monday and Tuesday and practice on Thursday and race on Sunday. 8 days total rather than 30 days."
Even 12 years ago, set ups were in the books. Many years ago and I mean many, yes it required a set up for 3 plus hours as the cars that won did not change rubber during the race in the 2 to 3 stops. So your set up held or you didn't win. Today with 8 to 10 pit stops there is plenty of time to try things.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

I seem to recall that a year or two after the split that the IRL, due to cost cutting I think, actually dropped the first weekend. I have done the traditional searches and can't find any info to prove or disprove it.
Can anyone shed more light on this?

[dataman1]

My bet is that all teams qualified or not will focus on race setups this week. The big bucks for qualifying have been paid, now the money is in the race finish.

[!!WALDO!!]

I seem to recall that a year or two after the split that the IRL, due to cost cutting I think, actually dropped the first weekend. I have done the traditional searches and can't find any info to prove or disprove it.
Can anyone shed more light on this?

Year was either 1999 or 2000.

[Vegasguy]

Year was either 1999 or 2000.

It was 1999, thanks

May 22 - Arie Luyendyk wins the pole position at over 225 mph average 4 lap speed (10 miles)

May 30 - Kenny Brack and the Power Team won the 1999 Indy 500.

Kind of Ironic that they try the very thing that helped create the un-unification. grrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Phoenixent]

In 1988 Penske took all three cars the MIS and ran 500 miles between qualifying and race day. There are details for you.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)


That after Indy not before. Indy is the test bed for 500 mile events it always been that way except for 1974 and 1975 when Ontario ran the 500 in March. But they also ran Twin 100's before the 500 at Ontario for those years. That gave the teams a chance to work somethings out before a 500 mile event.

[!!WALDO!!]

That after Indy not before. Indy is the test bed for 500 mile events it always been that way except for 1974 and 1975 when Ontario ran the 500 in March. But they also ran Twin 100's before the 500 at Ontario for those years. That gave the teams a chance to work somethings out before a 500 mile event.

No, Roger owned MIS and took the qualified cars to MIS after they qualified on the first weekend and ran them 500 miles. This has nothing to do with a race but taking the cars off the grounds, first to Reading, then MIS on the Tuesday before Indy and and back there on Carb Day to do leak tests. He did that from 1988 through 1994 because the was no rule preventing him from doing that. Won many 500 between that time.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[dataman1]

Waldo is correct. I heard about it at Milwaukee the week following Indy after rumors began to flow. The paddock in Milwaukee was always full of rumors on how different teams used tricks at Indy. They would try to bring some of those tricks to the CART events which many times were caught by Dick Perry or Kirk Russell. Of course the teams would use "well it passed at Indy".

[Phoenixent]

No, Roger owned MIS and took the qualified cars to MIS after they qualified on the first weekend and ran them 500 miles. This has nothing to do with a race but taking the cars off the grounds, first to Reading, then MIS on the Tuesday before Indy and and back there on Carb Day to do leak tests. He did that from 1988 through 1994 because the was no rule preventing him from doing that. Won many 500 between that time.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

Yes Penske did own MIS the cars according to you were tested at MIS after the were qualified. I doubt that Penske would risk qualified cars for testing most likely they were backups as one broken tub from a wreck and that car was no longer in the field. I know that Penske takes cars to tracks to shake them down at the last minute until the rules were changed. He did that here in LA at one of his car dealerships getting ready for Long Beach one year. It still does not change the fact that the eleven a day rule put a lot of teams behind the eight ball. The old method of qualifying there would be 19 cars in the field right now. That eight teams getting ready for the race and not round 3 or 4.

[!!WALDO!!]

Yes Penske did own MIS the cars according to you were tested at MIS after the were qualified. I doubt that Penske would risk qualified cars for testing most likely they were backups as one broken tub from a wreck and that car was no longer in the field. I know that Penske takes cars to tracks to shake them down at the last minute until the rules were changed. He did that here in LA at one of his car dealerships getting ready for Long Beach one year. It still does not change the fact that the eleven a day rule put a lot of teams behind the eight ball. The old method of qualifying there would be 19 cars in the field right now. That eight teams getting ready for the race and not round 3 or 4.


Sorry, he did and it was a casual 500 miles. Not race but practice. It was done through 1994. He won 5 500s from 1969-1987. Once he did this 500 mile tests he won in 1988, 1991, 1993 and 1994. 4 out of 7 years.

It was talked about on ABC, IMS Radio Network, NSSN for all those years.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[Phoenixent]

Sorry, he did and it was a casual 500 miles. Not race but practice. It was done through 1994. He won 5 500s from 1969-1987. Once he did this 500 mile tests he won in 1988, 1991, 1993 and 1994. 4 out of 7 years.

It was talked about on ABC, IMS Radio Network, NSSN for all those years.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

The only way to prove it was the qualified cars is with the chassis numbers. Do you have that on hand? There were six PC17 at Indy show the chassis numbers to back up your claim that the entire front row went to MIS and not the back cars and were that info came from.

Like they say - Link Please!!!!

[!!WALDO!!]

The only way to prove it was the qualified cars is with the chassis numbers. Do you have that on hand? There were six PC17 at Indy show the chassis numbers to back up your claim that the entire front row went to MIS and not the back cars and were that info came from.

Like they say - Link Please!!!!

Someone else agreed with me, but I got an idea. Call Donald Davidson at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. He can supply you with facts and figures.

I told you it was broadcasted over ABC in 1988, The Indianapolis 500 Radio Network in 1988 and National Speed Sport News. Send Chris Economaki an email at http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/. He can tell you. This was a HUGE STORY at the TIME. An unfair advantage that gave him 4 wins in 7 years.

Waldo is correct. I heard about it at Milwaukee the week following Indy after rumors began to flow. The paddock in Milwaukee was always full of rumors on how different teams used tricks at Indy. They would try to bring some of those tricks to the CART events which many times were caught by Dick Perry or Kirk Russell. Of course the teams would use "well it passed at Indy".

Sorry, he did and it was a casual 500 miles. Not race but practice. It was done through 1994. He won 5 500s from 1969-1987. Once he did this 500 mile tests he won in 1988, 1991, 1993 and 1994. 4 out of 7 years.

It was talked about on ABC, IMS Radio Network, NSSN for all those years.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[Phoenixent]

Someone else agreed with me, but I got an idea. Call Donald Davidson at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway. He can supply you with facts and figures.

I told you it was broadcasted over ABC in 1988, The Indianapolis 500 Radio Network in 1988 and National Speed Sport News. Send Chris Economaki an email at http://www.nationalspeedsportnews.com/. He can tell you. This was a HUGE STORY at the TIME. An unfair advantage that gave him 4 wins in 7 years.

Waldo is correct. I heard about it at Milwaukee the week following Indy after rumors began to flow. The paddock in Milwaukee was always full of rumors on how different teams used tricks at Indy. They would try to bring some of those tricks to the CART events which many times were caught by Dick Perry or Kirk Russell. Of course the teams would use "well it passed at Indy".

Sorry, he did and it was a casual 500 miles. Not race but practice. It was done through 1994. He won 5 500s from 1969-1987. Once he did this 500 mile tests he won in 1988, 1991, 1993 and 1994. 4 out of 7 years.

It was talked about on ABC, IMS Radio Network, NSSN for all those years.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

dataman1 agreed with you that Penske ran cars at other tracks for shake downs. I also agreed with this fact. But you said the entire 1988 front row went to MIS and not the backup cars for test runs. It's up to you to back it up with fact not because someone saw the cars.

The ball is in your court.

[Mad_Hatter]

... because they need to keep the qual setup on the cars for another week. Gives no time to adjust for the race.

Can they not practice race setups this week?

[Phoenixent]

Can they not practice race setups this week?

They can but most of the time will be used to keep triming out the car. They can setup the T car for race conditions and come close. But some teams don't have a T car like NHL.

[!!WALDO!!]

dataman1 agreed with you that Penske ran cars at other tracks for shake downs. I also agreed with this fact. But you said the entire 1988 front row went to MIS and not the backup cars for test runs. It's up to you to back it up with fact not because someone saw the cars.

The ball is in your court.

It is a MATTER OF HISTORY. Not only 1988 but every year through 1994. This was a big news story in 1988, huge. I was there and subscribed to the Indy Star and News.
The only car on the track the second week was 1T with Al and Danny driving it as the primaries were all in Reading. After Reading they went to MIS then from there to IMS.
Not only 1988 but 1994.

Why do I have to prove something I was alive and present for? I told you two people to talk to. Those people know the answers, as I do but you elect not to believe me.
Since you will not do it I fired off an email to the Radio Network and maybe Donald will email me. I will forward you his address if I get it and you can ask him. I do not expect you to say your sorry.

(NO REFERENCE, IMPLIED OR REAL TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD, or NOT YET BORN.)

[ZzZzZz]

They should at least amend the current rules to cover rain outs. So, if it rains day 2, cars 12-22 from day 1 get locked in. (I'm sure the current rules state that a day 1 rain out would mean 22 cars could get locked in day 2.)

But still, no matter which way it's done, there'll be teams in danger of being bumped on day 4. The more slower car that get in on the 1st weekend, the more that won't know if they are really in or not. So they'll still need to work on qualifying. The current system locks in cars that aren't likely to get bumped on the 1st weekend (except as the above issue). So it's only slower cars, that presumably need to continue to work on set-ups and are in potential danger of being bumped anyway, that aren't in on the 1st weekend.

So, the real difference between the two systems is minimal: making a run day 3 or sitting around day 3 wondering if you will have to make a run day 4. So cars that under the old system would be sitting around day 3 not knowing, now know they get 2 days to get a time in, instead of a fraction of one day.

[DRC]

Add me to the list of (long time) Indy fans who hates this rediculous rule.

1. It's false drama, not real drama. There is real drama for the pole position.

2. It hurts the race...especially this year. You have a lot of teams (now 2/3 of the field!) who won't be able to practice their race set-ups (and who NEED to practice their race set-ups) because they need to be sure they're going to be in the field for the race. And while I understand the idea of creating excitement for the entire month of May, IT SHOULDN'T AFFECT THE RACE!!! (..effect?)

3. Indiana always has weather! ALWAYS! Trust me, I'm a born and raised Hoosier. So you have to get while the gettin' is good because tomorrow could be wet. In this case, it looks like most of the week is going to be wet. Pole Day, a perfect weather day, was a waste.

Indy was special and worked just fine before. I understand why then went to this format, but we're one series now and Indy has a whole bunch of drivers and teams and drama again. Bring back the old format!!!

[dataman1]

Quote from a driver about the new format.

I’ll just be straight up - I don’t like it,” Hamilton told PA SportsTicker. “I don’t like the qualifying format at all. I personally feel like us as drivers we hang our tail out there. Qualifying is meant to hang your (tail) out. I just did that Saturday and I felt great about it but missed the top 11 by 15-100ths of a second.

“Now, I have to go do it all over again.”