Trouble ahead for WSR? [Archive]

BDunnell

5th May 2008, 11:07

I think they have struggled to some extent with the changeable weather at each meeting so far, but surely the team won't be pleased to see Turkington in 10th place in the standings and Jelley with only one point. Surely Turkington, though he's bound to win several more races, won't be able to get back into contention for the drivers' title now?

As for Jelley's performance, it often takes a while for someone straight out of single-seaters to adapt to the rough and tumble of touring cars. However, he has often been in quite good positions only to lose them late on, such as dropping back from sixth to tenth at the last Brands race, and yesterday's spin. Not all his fault, I'm sure, and I really hope he gets some good results.

Les

5th May 2008, 11:26

I have given up with Jelley... once he was doing very well then threw it away.
And because he is unable to get the best out of the car it can't help Colin and once the chin goes down it is hard to motivate everybody.

VkmSpouge

5th May 2008, 12:11

SEATFreak

5th May 2008, 12:19

Trouble ahead for WSR? I would think so.

They trail heavily in every championship and Turks is pretty much carrying the team. Only Turks has had any small modicum of success in podiums (with one win in Race 3 at Brands Hatch), qualifying with only two third places and sector times. In sector times At Brands Hatch he was the best in sectors 1 & 2 in Free Practice 2, in sector 2 in Free Practice 1 at Brands was second best (and not that far behind Giovanardi), in sector 1 at Rockingham in Free Practice 2 he was second, was third fastest in Sector 2 during Free Practice 2 at Donny, and in Sector 2 of Qualifying at Donny he was second.

Jelly? Nowhere to be found anywhere.

What Dick Bennets sees in Jelley is anyones guess. Still, his surname is rather apt. Come the end of the season DB needs to get shot of Jelley and get in Ben Winrow.

AndySpeed

5th May 2008, 12:37

I was going to start a similar thread. I've been a bit sceptical about Stephen Jelley's performances of late, only 1 point after 9 races. But as BDunnell has said changeable weather may had a part to play, as well as the rough and tumble of the BTCC and adapting to touring cars. With Turkington also seeming to struggle all the blame can't be placed on Jelley.

WSR are an experienced team and I expect they will turn the situation around, but at the end of the year at best they're going to be in the fight for the independents and probably not leading either championship for a while.

SEATFreak, Jelley has been a frontrunner for several seasons prior to BTCC. Whilst not the most logical switch (Single seater to touring cars) he's undoubtedly got some talent.

BDunnell

5th May 2008, 12:55

With Turkington also seeming to struggle all the blame can't be placed on Jelley.

Not just Turkington, you've got to say, but all the BMWs. Jackson has had a similarly up-and-down season to Turkington, and the Motorbase cars, Kane especially, have shown some good pace but picked up few results.

By the way, am I right in thinking that the BMWs seem that bit more susceptible to spinning after a punt at the rear, and thus lose out more in such incidents than their front-drive rivals?

SEATFreak, Jelley has been a frontrunner for several seasons prior to BTCC. Whilst not the most logical switch (Single seater to touring cars) he's undoubtedly got some talent.

Indeed, and he seems able to run at a decent pace compared to his rivals in the BTCC, before almost inevitably losing out one way or another.

It's interesting, though, that previous single-seater converts who have struggled early on in the BTCC like Derek Warwick (though, to be fair, his ability was probably masked in his first season by the bad performance of the Alfa, as he'd clearly got the hang of it when he returned with Vauxhall), Kelvin Burt (his first meeting in the Mondeo in '95 was really unimpressive), Steve Robertson (albeit in an awful Mondeo) and Gianni Morbidelli all found the transition to front-wheel-drive hard. Jelley doesn't have that to contend with.

AndySpeed

5th May 2008, 13:14

Not just Turkington, you've got to say, but all the BMWs. Jackson has had a similarly up-and-down season to Turkington, and the Motorbase cars, Kane especially, have shown some good pace but picked up few results.

I'm not sure I agree with you there. Had Jackson not run/been forced out wide in race 3 at Rockingham he would have been on for some very strong points, and where would that have left him in the championship going into Donington? Similarly the incident with Tom Chilton at Donington was probably 50/50, but without those two incidents combined Jackson would probably still be up in the battle for the lead of the drivers championship. A gamble on wets didn't pay off in race two, which is hardly down to struggling. So if he was struggling in my opinion it was a bit masked (Which might actually relate to what you've said before about the rain affecting, or masking, the performance of the BMW's).

By the way, am I right in thinking that the BMWs seem that bit more susceptible to spinning after a punt at the rear, and thus lose out more in such incidents than their front-drive rivals?

Possibly and with an H-pattern gearbox and rear wheel drive they're surely more susceptible to locking a rear wheel during a corner as well.

BDunnell

5th May 2008, 13:25

I'm not sure I agree with you there. Had Jackson not run/been forced out wide in race 3 at Rockingham he would have been on for some very strong points, and where would that have left him in the championship going into Donington? Similarly the incident with Tom Chilton at Donington was probably 50/50, but without those two incidents combined Jackson would probably still be up in the battle for the lead of the drivers championship. A gamble on wets didn't pay off in race two, which is hardly down to struggling. So if he was struggling in my opinion it was a bit masked (Which might actually relate to what you've said before about the rain affecting, or masking, the performance of the BMW's).

That is what I was getting at, yes.

One could add that Turkington was on for victory in that third race at Rockingham, and could have scored better in the first Donington race had he not jumped the start. Swings and roundabouts.

Dave B

5th May 2008, 16:00

I seem to remember at the start of 2006 many people were doubting that VX's new signing, Fabrizio Giovanardi, would adapt to the BTCC. He's done alright for himself... :p

Now Jelley may not be in quite the same class, but I agree that it can't have been easy adapting to the BTCC after so long in single seaters, especially with the unpredictable weather we've had for much of this season.

Calling him a "liability" is unfair, but it's true that he needs to raise his game over the next few meetings and become a regular fixture on the scoreboard. His track record indicates that he's capable of doing so.

SEATFreak

5th May 2008, 16:20

Calling him a "liability" is unfair, but it's true that he needs to raise his game over the next few meetings and become a regular fixture on the scoreboard. His track record indicates that he's capable of doing so.

Also, he just needs time to show everyone the talent he has.

BDunnell

5th May 2008, 16:35

I seem to remember at the start of 2006 many people were doubting that VX's new signing, Fabrizio Giovanardi, would adapt to the BTCC. He's done alright for himself... :p

And it even took him a while, didn't it? Even as late as the Donington meeting where he lost that win to Turkington through his own mistake, and tried to turn in on Mike Jordan when he had clearly lost the place to Mike, Giovanardi didn't look like the multiple champion he was. I don't think instant success should be expected in motorsport!

Elmo

5th May 2008, 18:13

Jelly? Nowhere to be found anywhere.

What Dick Bennets sees in Jelley is anyones guess. Still, his surname is rather apt. Come the end of the season DB needs to get shot of Jelley and get in Ben Winrow.[/quote]

Colin cant challenge for anything with zero support from his team mate, I think WSR or indeed (RAC) will be regretting the driver choice to partner there No.1.... I'm reliably informed their other driver option was favoured by some in the camp, I bet they are kicking themselves they didnt use him :mad: .

More fool them.

mattie007

5th May 2008, 18:44

Im sure they will bounce back. We are only 3 rounds down, which have all had dodgy weather conditions.
How can Jelley be criticised after just 9 short races? Give him half a season to adjust, surely?

Maybe they could bring back the MG's for rainy races!

Iain

7th May 2008, 07:01

No time for panicking just yet. They need some settled weather conditions for starters. You never really see a wet WTCC race, hence why the BMWs have been so successful there. Also at the weekend there, they all struggled with the low grip surface, caused by all the dust that gets blown onto the track and also dragged on by the FWD cars corner cutting. No idea where Colin pulled out that 3rd in qualifying from, he didn't seem too confident about the session when we spoke to him an hour beforehand.

tisme

9th May 2008, 15:47

Trouble ahead for WSR??.... There's a storm coming!

BDunnell

9th May 2008, 16:03

Literally or figuratively? ;)

VkmSpouge

9th May 2008, 18:16

If WSR were in my town today then it was literally :p :

tyreman2

9th May 2008, 18:57

Although things havn't gone their way so far I think that it is down to a series of misfortunes WSR are a quality outfit and Dick Bennets is one of the best,Colin is an excellent driver and Dick has a lot of faith in him,he was miles ahead of any other BMW in Qualifying at Donnington
As for Jelley I am not to sure, he may manage the lower end of the top 10 but i think thats about it

wedge

10th May 2008, 14:20

SEATFreak

10th May 2008, 14:55

As for Jelley I am not to sure, he may manage the lower end of the top 10 but i think thats about it

I said Jelley was nowhere to be seen compared to Turks. Meaning Turks seems to be better than Jelley in just about everything. I even did the much specified method of research to get my facts straight; facts that support your claim as I noticed he is a consistent runner among the mid-lower times in most sectors during Practices and Qualifying sessions aswell as being consistently finishing among the early non-points scoring positions during races.. But to no avail as I seemed to fail spectacularly well with having that point of view.

Just refer to this post...

SEATFreak, Jelley has been a frontrunner for several seasons prior to BTCC. Whilst not the most logical switch (Single seater to touring cars) he's undoubtedly got some talent.

I now belive he is a top talent. So let us not judge him.

BDunnell

10th May 2008, 15:14

I said Jelley was nowhere to be seen compared to Turks. Meaning Turks seems to be better than Jelley in just about everything. I even did the much specified method of research to get my facts straight; facts that support your claim as I noticed he is a consistent runner among the mid-lower times in most sectors during Practices and Qualifying sessions aswell as being consistently finishing among the early non-points scoring positions during races.. But to no avail as I seemed to fail spectacularly well with having that point of view.

With respect, having a point of view isn't about succeeding or failing with it.

BDunnell

10th May 2008, 15:15

No offence to WSR but they're there or there abouts and can win - driver championship a tall order?

Turks needs to be in a front running team. Having to carry the full weight of the team is getting to him a bit?

I think he is in a front-running team. The BMW is a top car and WSR is a top preparation outfit.

tyreman2

11th May 2008, 07:40

I said Jelley was nowhere to be seen compared to Turks. Meaning Turks seems to be better than Jelley in just about everything. I even did the much specified method of research to get my facts straight; facts that support your claim as I noticed he is a consistent runner among the mid-lower times in most sectors during Practices and Qualifying sessions aswell as being consistently finishing among the early non-points scoring positions during races.. But to no avail as I seemed to fail spectacularly well with having that point of view.

Just refer to this post...

I now belive he is a top talent. So let us not judge him.

You just did......If you believe he is a top talent!

BDunnell

19th May 2008, 13:20

So, what do we think of WSR now after Thruxton? Clearly, Turkington got some good results befitting the quality of the team, driver and car, but I can't help but feel that Jelley has reached a bit of a plateau - whenever he finishes, it's just outside the points. Is that good enough at this stage of the season?

Robinho

19th May 2008, 13:47

it looks like Jelley is struggling to adapt to the BTCC, whilst he is undoubtedly quick he's still got a single seater style, which is probably a bit too smooth for tin tops, and similarly he probably could be more agressive in his racecraft which he couldn't do in Single seaters. i'd be tempted to give him a bit more time to adapt, even the full season, and expect him to be more on the pace next year, although i'd expect a gradual improvement for the rest of this year.

Turks is driving great again, i think Thruxton showed him and Jackson fully exploiting the BMW's potential for that circuit, and with the level at the front being so high and so many drivers competing for points, just getting into the top ten is adecent acheivement in most races at the moment

whether he'll get that time, however, is debatable, with so many quick young drivers with a good touring car style already who would love to have that drive

SEATFreak

19th May 2008, 15:04

Turks is driving great again

At just as the right time too, for me. A clear trio of Independents are looking good to be fighting for the title come the end (Jones, Jackson and Turks) with Turks being in such a position behind Jones and Jackson where I feel he really needs the form he achieved at Thruxton over most of last half of the season for him to keep touch and give himself any kind of realistic chance of retaining his Independents trophy.

Jones and Jackson can be considered, where you consider where we are at this point in the season, neck and neck with Jackson on 126 and Jones on 127. Jackson having won 4 races in the Independents class and Jones having won 3 races in the class. Turks has also been top Independent three times but for me he has has a poorer points scoring record than Jones. Jones has never been lower that 4th (8pts at Round 2), scoring double points in ever race apart from Round 3 at Brands Hatch. Turks has no such record.

Trouble ahead for WSR? In the points race I think they are certainly in for trouble.

Les

20th May 2008, 12:26

I just kept thinking how good Colin would be doing now if he had a stronger team-mate. Poor boy must be doing all the developement work himself.

AndySpeed

20th May 2008, 13:10

Jelley's results:

http://www.btccaction.co.uk/drivers/jelley_results.php

BDunnell

20th May 2008, 13:12

Jelley's results:

http://www.btccaction.co.uk/drivers/jelley_results.php

Doesn't make pleasing reading, does it?

Les

20th May 2008, 14:27

Harder he tries the worse it gets

SEATFreak

20th May 2008, 15:13

Harder he tries the worse it gets

In what way does it get worse the harder he tries?

I mean, I am not saying it is any kind of achievement because clearly it ain't becase clearly it just ain't anywhere near good enough, but by my judgement he seems to be on a level with no realy dramatic slump anywhere. Not in results. Five times he has come 11th and each of the three other times he has finished are in the same 3 places (13th, 14 & 15th).

So I wouldn't say things are getting worse. It is just things aren't getting better. I don't see anywhere he is starting to improve.

Alfa Fan

20th May 2008, 15:17

In what way does it get worse the harder he tries?

Don't worry about it SEATFreak. Whilse Jelley hasn't done very well, Les is still just bitter about Andy Neate not getting the drive.

BDunnell

20th May 2008, 16:14

In what way does it get worse the harder he tries?

I mean, I am not saying it is any kind of achievement because clearly it ain't becase clearly it just ain't anywhere near good enough, but by my judgement he seems to be on a level with no realy dramatic slump anywhere. Not in results. Five times he has come 11th and each of the three other times he has finished are in the same 3 places (13th, 14 & 15th).

So I wouldn't say things are getting worse. It is just things aren't getting better. I don't see anywhere he is starting to improve.

I think that's a very fair assessment. Personally, I feel rather sorry for the chap, as he can't be enjoying not getting any points either.

VX_Rules

20th May 2008, 17:33

I bet WSR are kicking themselves right now, one for losing the OC, and two, for picking Jelley. Things would have been sweeter with a better decision.

SEATFreak

20th May 2008, 18:14

I bet WSR are kicking themselves right now, one for losing the OC, and two, for picking Jelley. Things would have been sweeter with a better decision.

Spot on with both counts; especially the latter.

But would TOC be doing as well if not better for WSR as he is doing for VXR mow?

I think he would have improved on last seasons performance as he would have had a year of work with WSR and the 320si under his belt but to the Vectra is so much better and consistent in it's success rate than the other cars in this current BTCC era (Leon, Integra, Civic and 320si) it tends to make drivers who are very good look world class. Not obviously Giovanardi and Neal as they are truly worldclass. Now, this is no slight against what Tom has achieved this season, but I am sceptical about whether or not Tom could have on Sunday been one race away from doing something only Dan Eaves has ever done; win all 3 races in the 3-race format BTCC, in the 320si.

Dave B

20th May 2008, 19:01

Don't worry about it SEATFreak. Whilse Jelley hasn't done very well, Les is still just bitter about Andy Neate not getting the drive.
Hey, if Andy can kick my a**e in a kart then he must be good :p

tyreman2

20th May 2008, 19:23

Hey, if Andy can kick my a**e in a kart then he must be good :p
Jelley does seem to be taking longer to get to grips with the BMW than you would have expected.But please don't even try to put Andy Neate in the same league.I am quite sure that Dick Bennetts thinks he chose the right man out of those two,after all he is proving quicker than Collard

VX_Rules

20th May 2008, 19:23

Your right bout OC, He'd of definately improved on his last season in the Beemer, but Front wheel drives where he is at and needed that drive At Vauxhall.

reidy_fan

20th May 2008, 20:11

Don't worry about it SEATFreak. Whilse Jelley hasn't done very well, Les is still just bitter about Andy Neate not getting the drive.

dont know about Les being bitter perhaps Andy would have done a better job than jelley, come to think of it there is a heck of a lot of drivers that would have delivered more than jelley

Elmo

20th May 2008, 20:38

Jelley does seem to be taking longer to get to grips with the BMW than you would have expected.But please don't even try to put Andy Neate in the same league.I am quite sure that Dick Bennetts thinks he chose the right man out of those two,after all he is proving quicker than Collard

What a load of rubbish!!

Just because Jelley has been fortunate to run with Double RR in F3 and Lewis Hamiltons GP2 team (not that the latter made any difference to his results) does not put him leagues above Neate nor anybody else in the BTCC, front runner or midfield! I'm all for any racing driver good or bad to be given an opportunity to shine but it's clear no matter what series he's run in (all with the very best teams I might add) he has been overall poor below par..

Watch this space, I think there may be a few surprises before the season is out and we may get to see how the two aforementioned measure up! Your entitled to your opinion of course tyreman but I think you will be proved very wrong.

BDunnell

20th May 2008, 23:37

Spot on with both counts; especially the latter.

But would TOC be doing as well if not better for WSR as he is doing for VXR mow?

I think he would have improved on last seasons performance as he would have had a year of work with WSR and the 320si under his belt but to the Vectra is so much better and consistent in it's success rate than the other cars in this current BTCC era (Leon, Integra, Civic and 320si) it tends to make drivers who are very good look world class. Not obviously Giovanardi and Neal as they are truly worldclass. Now, this is no slight against what Tom has achieved this season, but I am sceptical about whether or not Tom could have on Sunday been one race away from doing something only Dan Eaves has ever done; win all 3 races in the 3-race format BTCC, in the 320si.

I don't agree about the Vectra making all its drivers look world class, but I agree that Onslow-Cole is doing better in the Vectra this year than I think he would be in the BMW. He seems that bit happier in the car, apart from having got that season's experience under his belt.

tyreman2

21st May 2008, 05:56

What a load of rubbish!!

Just because Jelley has been fortunate to run with Double RR in F3 and Lewis Hamiltons GP2 team (not that the latter made any difference to his results) does not put him leagues above Neate nor anybody else in the BTCC, front runner or midfield! I'm all for any racing driver good or bad to be given an opportunity to shine but it's clear no matter what series he's run in (all with the very best teams I might add) he has been overall poor below par..

Watch this space, I think there may be a few surprises before the season is out and we may get to see how the two aforementioned measure up! Your entitled to your opinion of course tyreman but I think you will be proved very wrong.
I can't wait LOL