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keysersoze
22nd April 2008, 17:50
I'd like to start a thread about one of my all-time favorite drivers. Please post thoughts on his career, racing moments, a time you met him or saw him race live, other drivers' comments about him, and the like.

22nd April 2008, 18:29
I'd like to start a thread about one of my all-time favorite drivers. Please post thoughts on his career, racing moments, a time you met him or saw him race live, other drivers' comments about him, and the like.

I think ArrowsFA1 is the man you need to talk to.

codalunga
23rd April 2008, 04:02
I'd like to start a thread about one of my all-time favorite drivers. Please post thoughts on his career, racing moments, a time you met him or saw him race live, other drivers' comments about him, and the like.

Monaco 1982 where he won his first race is one of the strangest F1 races I've ever seen.

Valve Bounce
23rd April 2008, 06:59
Are we talking about Ricky Ricardo?

ArrowsFA1
23rd April 2008, 12:03
What a fine idea for a thread keysersoze :up: :D

First of all, congratulations to Rubens for reaching such a milestone. Apparently, in the absence of any "official" confirmation he has decided he will break Riccardo's record in Turkey, so this weekend's race will see him match it.

It may just be a number, but to race in 256 GP's is still a remarkable achievement. Riccardo takes particular pride in his record because it shows that the work he did in F1 was valued by the teams he raced for. If he hadn't made such contributions to the likes of Brabham, Williams and Benetton he would not have been an F1 driver for as long as he was.

Benetton is quite a good example in many ways. Although his final year in F1 is often seen by some as a poor one Steve Matchett has written of how valuable Riccardo's experience and knowledge was, and how much time this saved the team in the development of the car. That's the kind of unnoticed contribution Riccardo made during his career.

Finest moments? Perhaps the 1990 San Marino GP victory, mainly because of what it meant to Riccardo particularly after what happened at the 1983 GP. Also Mexico in 1991 was a superb drive. Ill all weekend, he put the Williams on pole - can you imagine Mansell saying "‘I think my pole was because of the perfection of the car. Yesterday I was carried by the car because I didn’t feel so well, the car did the work" - and won. Or how about that pole position at Estoril in 1991. Superb :up: For Riccardo his karting world title, and victories in Macau, rank up there with his achievements throughout his career.

A thoroughly good bloke is Riccardo, and a damn fine racing driver.

wedge
23rd April 2008, 15:09
Top driver, perhaps the epitome of a #2 driver.

After Mansell set a record lap during qualy for the 1992 British GP, he congratulated Mansell by grabbing Mansell's groin to confirm he had huge balls!

keysersoze
23rd April 2008, 21:29
1989 was Riccardo's return to the sharp end of the grid, and I was over the moon to see him share the front row with Senna at Rio. He later had excellent races at both Canada (teammate Thierry Boutsen won when Patrese's undertray worked itself loose in the rain) and Hungary (on pole, and led for 50+ laps) but he was denied victory in both.

Considering his near-misses, the thoroughly-deserved Imola win in '90 was a special moment, and even our lousy San Antonio paper had a write up about it.

ArrowsFA1
24th April 2008, 10:39
Top driver, perhaps the epitome of a #2 driver.
I think this view of Riccardo largely comes from two years in his long career - 1983 at Brabham and 1992 at Williams. Given that his team-mates went on to win the WDC in both years that's not too surprising, but I don't think Riccardo should be seen as a #2 in the same way as Rubens was for 6 years at Ferrari.

He wasn't signed as a #2 to Piquet for 1982, and headed his team-mate in the WDC standings throughout the year. At the point when the team decided to concentrate on their BMW engined car Riccardo was ahead of Rosberg in the standings, and Gordon Murray has said the team didn't appreciate how strong the Cosworth-powered BT49 was in comparison with the opposition. The following year poor BMW reliability (he was often running development parts, unlike Piquet) put paid to any meaningful results

As for Williams, Riccardo was well established in the team by 1991, and had contributed a great deal to the development of the car, but he wasn't seen as a "star", whereas Mansell was, so Mansell was signed very much on his terms to win the world title for Renault. Things didn't go quite to plan in the beginning as Riccardo outqualified the "star" in the first 7 races of the year, but after winning in France Nigel imposed himself on the team.

In pre-season testing for 1992 Riccardo said (http://www.riccardopatrese.com/rpinterview.htm) of 1991 "You could see, especially at the beginning of the season, that if the material I had was exactly the same l could win races." Things were not exactly the same in 1992, not because of anything the team did, but because, as Adrian Newey said (http://www.riccardopatrese.com/motorsport.htm), "Nigel quickly realised we had a very good car, and that his most likely rival for the title was going to be Riccardo. So he set about systematically demoralising him." One means of doing this was to mislead his team-mate during debriefs; the other was the simple fact that the 'computer controlled' FW14B suited Mansell's style far more than it did Riccardo's.

24th April 2008, 13:16
He wasn't signed as a #2 to Piquet for 1982, and headed his team-mate in the WDC standings throughout the year.

Well, yes, but Nelson did have the BMW engined BT50 for all but one race, which had a great talent for self-detonation in it's formative season, whereas Ricardo was put back into the uber-reliable Cosworth powered BT49 until the French GP.

(I might be slightly out on the specific races)

That's not to say that Patrese was a bonafide Number 2, just that reading anything into the 1982 Brabham season based on championship positions is misleading.

wedge
24th April 2008, 13:43
He wasn't signed as a #2 to Piquet for 1982, and headed his team-mate in the WDC standings throughout the year. At the point when the team decided to concentrate on their BMW engined car Riccardo was ahead of Rosberg in the standings, and Gordon Murray has said the team didn't appreciate how strong the Cosworth-powered BT49 was in comparison with the opposition. The following year poor BMW reliability (he was often running development parts, unlike Piquet) put paid to any meaningful results

What I meant when I say a good #2 driver is someone who can win a number of races but not necessarily WDC material - as in the same case as Berger, Barrichello, Coulthard, Massa.

Would you seriously put Patrese as WDC material?

jens
24th April 2008, 16:37
Nothing against Patrese of course, but there is one thing I am wondering about. Why did Williams choose Patrese over Boutsen after 1990? The Belgian was younger and - IMO - a tad more impressive in the two years they had spent together. Boutsen's career was basically over after this decision and he had to drive an uncompetitive Ligier.

Dave B
24th April 2008, 16:52
It's easier for Barrichello to match this record in the modern era as there tend to be more races per season.

Of course, that's not to diminish his achievement in any way - "easier" is a relative term and both drivers are outstanding sportsmen in their own right.

ArrowsFA1
24th April 2008, 17:32
That's not to say that Patrese was a bonafide Number 2, just that reading anything into the 1982 Brabham season based on championship positions is misleading.
Fair point, and one that applies to the 1983 season as well ;)

Would you seriously put Patrese as WDC material?
When he first came into F1 Riccardo Patrese was seen as a potential "star". As Autocourse said in reviewing his 1978 season "he is a natural winner. There are many drivers who can race competitively in Formula 1, but few who can win. In South Africa Riccardo proved he could lead a Grand Prix with apparent ease."

Of course events during 1978 affected the course of his career in many ways, but consider that he had the same 3yr deal offered by Brabham to Piquet available to him that season. How may that have changed his WDC prospects? The reason he turned it down was the possibility of a drive from Ferrari for 1979 and who knows what may have happened had that come off. Instead he spent 3 more years with Arrows treading water in F1 terms, before Brabham came calling again. After that was the Euroracing disaster which could so easily have ended his career, but the move to Williams (helped by Bernie) revived his career to the extent that by the end of 1989 he was in-line for a Ferrari drive again had Prost turned them down. His strong relationship with Williams, and performances in 1991, showed that the talent that had always been there was still there.

So, yes I would consider Riccardo WDC material. I do think he had the ability but an awful lot has to come together to make a WDC and clearly not everything fell in the right place at the right time for him. He's not alone in that!!

Certainly Riccardo would not put himself up there with the likes of Senna, but on his day he could compete with the best and he's happy with that. As Nigel Roebuck said "There were only six victories, fewer by far than might have been predicted when he blitzed into Grand Prix racing in the late seventies, but I'll warrant that Patrese got more pure pleasure from his racing life than any of his more highly-touted colleagues."

keysersoze
24th April 2008, 18:04
Nothing against Patrese of course, but there is one thing I am wondering about. Why did Williams choose Patrese over Boutsen after 1990? The Belgian was younger and - IMO - a tad more impressive in the two years they had spent together. Boutsen's career was basically over after this decision and he had to drive an uncompetitive Ligier.

Good question, as Boutsen had more wins, and outscored Patrese in '90.

I don't know the answer, so I'll speculate. I'm inclined to think it was the intangibles he brought to the team. He was also an indefatigable tester and a favorite within the team. He'd been with the team longer. Mansell may have even weighed in on the decision.

shazbot
24th April 2008, 18:26
I remember wathcing Rubens at Brands Hatch in F3! Now he's about to eclipse Ricardo's GP starts. Makes me feel old. Always liked listening to Patrese after a race. So cool and laid back. I remeber thinking he'd been around for ever, and I guess he had been, racing in my formative GP watching days ( I was 16 when he retired).

24th April 2008, 20:15
The reason he turned it down was the possibility of a drive from Ferrari for 1979 and who knows what may have happened had that come off.

Arrows, I remember an early 80's interview by Denis Jenkinson with Enzo Ferrari (in Motor Sport), who stated that he had once considered signing Patrese and had invited Ricardo to Maranello. According to Enzo, Patrese turned up with a lawyer, before any mention of contracts or job offers had been made. At that point, Enzo decided he wasn't interested and no offer was made.

Any chance you know Patrese's side of the story?

PS - Apparently, Eddie Cheever made the same mistake.

ArrowsFA1
28th April 2008, 09:51
Any chance you know Patrese's side of the story?
We have talked about his contacts with Ferrari but there was no mention of this version of events. As far as I know Riccardo was contacted by Enzo Ferrari after the 1978 South African GP, and they then met in Modena. He signed a "pre-contract" with Ferrari in April 1978. Towards the end of 1978 they spoke again when Ferrari said there was no place available in the team for 1979, but he was their first choice when/if a seat became available. At that point Ferrari made him a payment as part of the "pre-contract".

At the end of 1979 he met with Enzo Ferrari again to be told that because the team had done so well there would be no changes to the drivers, but in March 1980 Ferrari contacted him and asked "how much do you want to race for us in 1981?". He was given 24hrs to respond. Riccardo told them it was not a question of money, and that he would like to hear their offer. Ferrari insisted he named his price, so he asked for the same money he was making at Arrows. As he said he went to the South African GP in high spirits, but Ferrari then told him "consider yourself free. We cannot guarantee you a seat." And that was that.

This Autosprint cover shows what might have been:

http://www.riccardopatrese.com/images/collectors/as0103061.jpg

AAReagles
3rd May 2008, 20:18
Ferrari contacted him... He was given 24hrs to respond. Riccardo told them it was not a question of money, and that he would like to hear their offer. Ferrari insisted he named his price, so he asked for the same money he was making at Arrows. As he said he went to the South African GP in high spirits, but Ferrari then told him "consider yourself free. We cannot guarantee you a seat." And that was that.

:down: Good grief. I can only imagine what a difference he would have made at Ferrari, as compared to Pironi...

keysersoze
6th May 2008, 14:03
So, am I reading this correctly?

Ferrari tells Riccardo, "We want you. How much money do you want?"

Riccardo then (rather magnanimously, it seems) asks for the same salary he is already receiving from a mid-pack team.

Ferrari replies, "No thanks."

I don't get it. :confused:

ArrowsFA1
6th May 2008, 14:21
So, am I reading this correctly?
This (http://www.riccardopatrese.com/autosprint2.htm) is the english translation of the 1982 interview his version of events came from.

ShiftingGears
6th May 2008, 14:25
So, am I reading this correctly?

Ferrari tells Riccardo, "We want you. How much money do you want?"

Riccardo then (rather magnanimously, it seems) asks for the same salary he is already receiving from a mid-pack team.

Ferrari replies, "No thanks."

I don't get it. :confused:

Probably wanted Patrese to say something about winning instead of money.

ArrowsFA1
6th May 2008, 14:52
Alan Rees, Riccardo's former team manager at Arrows, told me (http://www.riccardopatrese.com/arinterview.htm) back in 1992 that:
"There is some reason, which I've never found out, that he will never drive for Ferrari. I understood right from the early days that there is never any chance of him ever driving for Ferrari. I don't know why though. I don't think many people do know why."
Now, when the likes of Alan Rees says that you wonder why Ferrari would go through the process of speaking with Riccardo on a number of occasions. Perhaps it was Enzo Ferrari's way of playing up to the Italian media who would have liked little more than an Italian driver racing for Ferrari.

Tazio
7th May 2008, 17:34
Patrese speaks about the record being broken! This guy's a class act!

"I will feel some sadness, of course," said Patrese to autosport.com. "I was pleased to keep the record, but records are there to be beaten - and the only thing I can say is that I congratulate Rubens for doing it. He has had a long career and this record means that if you can survive in Formula One for so many years, then it means you did well - and everything you did was appreciated by the people who worked with you."
http://www2.f1network.net/main/s169/st128859.htm

7th May 2008, 17:39
Probably wanted Patrese to say something about winning instead of money.

From what I remember, that was the impression Enzo gave in the interview with Jenkinson.

I definitely remember that Mr Ferrari was unimpressed by drivers who had lawyers!

ArrowsFA1
8th May 2008, 10:22
I definitely remember that Mr Ferrari was unimpressed by drivers who had lawyers!
He was also not adverse to, according to Phil Hill as told to Doug Nye, lording it over ambitious young drivers who were falling over themselves "to jump into the cooking pot under which The Old Man constantly stoked the fire."

At this time there were a number of drivers mentioned in connection with a Ferrari drive. Both Elio de Angelis and Eddie Cheever tested for Ferrari, and Riccardo had also been at Fiorano testing the Chevron-Ferrari car he was initially going to race in the 1977 F2 championship. Remember that at the end of 1976 Niki Lauda had withdrawn from the Japanese GP and as a result failed to win the WDC. His relationship with Ferrari never recovered, and it seems that the team was casting around for alternatives, eventually deciding on Gilles Villeneuve.

Riccardo was probably the prime Italian candidate for a Ferrari drive, and at that point in his career he was willing to turn down opportunities elsewhere to ensure he was available should the call come. That suggests to me he felt Ferrari were a realistic prospect, given the discussions he had. Exactly how realistic perhaps only Enzo Ferrari could have said, but I do think Ferrari himself wanted to be seen to be offering the drive to an Italian.

Incidentally, Riccardo never had a manager throughout his career, so the idea of him taking a lawyer to Maranello seems a little odd, unless he felt that he was going there to sign a particularly significant contract. Either that or there was no lawyer.

futuretiger9
22nd September 2008, 21:18
People tend to forget that at the beginning of 1981, Riccardo and the Arrows were extremely competitive. He led for a long time at Long Beach, after taking pole. The team could not sustain its momentum in the second half of the season, however.

Riccardo also led for much of the '78 South African GP.

ArrowsFA1
22nd September 2008, 21:44
The team could not sustain its momentum in the second half of the season, however.
That was largely down to tyres. Michelin supplied the whole field at the start of 1981, but Avon and Pirelli entered the fray at the San Marino GP, followed by Goodyear in France. I don't remember if Arrows chose to change tyres, or were dropped by Michelin (I suspect the latter) but the team ended up on Pirellis from the British GP onwards and from then on their season faded away :(

futuretiger9
22nd September 2008, 21:52
That was largely down to tyres. Michelin supplied the whole field at the start of 1981, but Avon and Pirelli entered the fray at the San Marino GP, followed by Goodyear in France. I don't remember if Arrows chose to change tyres, or were dropped by Michelin (I suspect the latter) but the team ended up on Pirellis from the British GP onwards and from then on their season faded away :(

Of course, in 1981 there was constant uncertaintly about the technical regulations, particularly relating to skirts. I wonder if Arrows took their eye off the ball in this respect? The other teams with more resources (Brabham, Ligier, Williams etc) were able to cope more readily, and Arrows' early advantage was eroded.