Are BTC Racing the unluckiest team?

[VXRDartford]

After another weekend of problems for BTC Racing I was just wondering if anyone can remeber a team that has had worse luck with reliability as they have with their lexus?

At least Stuart Oliver managed to finish 2 out of the three races yesterday!

[BDunnell]

Depends whether luck comes into it.

[poole123]

It was even worse than that, stuart oliver only finished 1 race!

[VXRDartford]

It was even worse than that, stuart oliver only finished 1 race!

Oh yeah I remember seeing him being pushed into the pit garage. Oops at least they got a race finish!!

[mac853]

I think the problems wasn't on the team's and drivers' competitiveness or lack of budget, surely the bad reliability and performance of the IS200's chassis and engine, this is the most common destination of Toyota's cars when you are without any factory's technical support.

[cazvxr]

You cannot fault the Team,they work their socks off and Chris definitely has capability.For Oliver ,the engine gave on Race 1 and Race 3 the electrics went.

[BT 96]

Just a line, Stuart,s car run all week end ,race 1 1st one we have finished for a while , race 2 pushed into the gravel,race 3 alternator droped out and didnt charge when up to 12 from the back of the grid,so all in all the car ran all weekend,and this is 1st time in a long time we took the line up in all 3 races, so we are now geting ready for Donninton.


After another weekend of problems for BTC Racing I was just wondering if anyone can remeber a team that has had worse luck with reliability as they have with their lexus?

At least Stuart Oliver managed to finish 2 out of the three races yesterday!

[RaikkonenRules]

What happened to Chris Stockton then? He didn't start any of the races yesterday. :(

[tyreman2]

Depends whether luck comes into it.

spot on Dunnell!

[VkmSpouge]

BTC Racing do suffer horrendous unreliability with their Lexus. I really hope they are able to turn it around.

[DazzlaF1]

After another weekend of problems for BTC Racing I was just wondering if anyone can remeber a team that has had worse luck with reliability as they have with their lexus?

At least Stuart Oliver managed to finish 2 out of the three races yesterday!

I remember in F1 when Nick Wirth's Simtek team were there, they were only in it for 18 months but during that time they had horrible reliability problems, had a driver killed (Roland Ratzenberger), his replacement (Andrea Montermini) was hospitalized in a test shortly afterwards and then in 1995 when they had a decent car, they went bust.

I know its not touring cars, but when it comes to unlucky, its the only one i can think of

[VXRDartford]

Just a line, Stuart,s car run all week end ,race 1 1st one we have finished for a while , race 2 pushed into the gravel,race 3 alternator droped out and didnt charge when up to 12 from the back of the grid,so all in all the car ran all weekend,and this is 1st time in a long time we took the line up in all 3 races, so we are now geting ready for Donninton.

Sorry hope it did not seem that I was critising the team as that is not the case.

I think it is great that you have stuck with the Lexus when you could have easily got a BMW etc. I hope that you can get some good results from it for the rest of the season

[BT 96]

Sorry hope it did not seem that I was critising the team as that is not the case.

I think it is great that you have stuck with the Lexus when you could have easily got a BMW etc. I hope that you can get some good results from it for the rest of the season

Thank you, every body has an opion, we will carry on for the moment with the cars as they are,and then we will look at our position mid season to see how rest of the season pans out, but we are staying in the BTCC.

[poole123]

I really hope that the lexus improves its reliability, it is always great to see a number of different types of car in the BTCC.

[BTCC2]

What about the JSM Alfa team in 2001
they were probably the most unlucky team i can remember.

[BDunnell]

In what way were JSM unlucky?

[VkmSpouge]

Well they did have awful reliability which can be considered bad luck.

[BDunnell]

So teams like WSR and VXR, which generally enjoy good reliability, are lucky then?

[VkmSpouge]

Yes I would say they are lucky but I'm not saying that is the only or indeed biggest contributing factor to their success, I would imagine preparation and budget rank higher but you can't eliminate luck. As for BTC Racing I do think they have been really unfortunate to have had a terrible start to the season.

[Dave B]

Reliability, good or bad, is rarely down to luck. Procedures can be put in place to ensure components' lifespans can be predicted and planned for; and testing can reveal potential problems away from point-scoring race weekends.

Of course this all takes a large amount of money and nobody underestimates how hard this is for privateer teams, but anybody entering the BTCC or any other series does so with a good idea of the budgets involved.

[Eurotech]

To be honest, those Lexus IS200's were dogs when they appeared in 2005 with HPI Racing and they still are now - 3 years later!!!

Shouldn't BTC Racing start thinking of switching to a tried + tested car like a BMW or SEAT ??????????????

[Iain]

That lacks imagination though, fair play to them for trying.

[Eurotech]

To be honest, those Lexus IS200's were dogs when they appeared in 2005 with HPI Racing and they still are now - 3 years later!!!

Shouldn't BTC Racing start thinking of switching to a tried + tested car like a BMW or SEAT ??????????????

[Eurotech]

well then maybe they should try an MG ?????

[peewhee]

well then maybe they should try an MG ?????

WHY????

[BDunnell]

Reliability, good or bad, is rarely down to luck. Procedures can be put in place to ensure components' lifespans can be predicted and planned for; and testing can reveal potential problems away from point-scoring race weekends.

Of course this all takes a large amount of money and nobody underestimates how hard this is for privateer teams, but anybody entering the BTCC or any other series does so with a good idea of the budgets involved.

:up:

Very well put. I also agree with Iain's remark above, though, because the IS200s add to the mix of cars on the grid and there is something enjoyable about seeing an underdog doing as well as Chris Stockton has managed to do for a few laps at a time on several occasions. I hope that happens a few more times.

[SEATFreak]

To be honest, those Lexus IS200's were dogs when they appeared in 2005 with HPI Racing and they still are now - 3 years later!!!

TBBH since ABG Motorsport in 2001 I just about reckon they have been dogs for every team that has run then.

So why do teams choose them?

[thompp]

So why do teams choose them?

At the end of the day it probably comes down to cash. These teams want to race in the BTCC with whatever car they can afford.

[Eurotech]

WHY????

Well, Iain said he wanted more imagination.....

How about a Honda Accord or Chevy Lacetti

[MBailey06]

Or something from Sweden?

[m0rk]

I doubt an RML built daywoo would be 'cheap'

It's the only other RWD touring car you can buy (I think) - which has the edge in some circumstances...

It's just a shame about the engine (didn't they change to a mountune lump to improve it?)

[tintin]

What about the JSM Alfa team in 2001
they were probably the most unlucky team i can remember.


In what way were JSM unlucky?


Well they did have awful reliability which can be considered bad luck.

Alfa Romeo. Reliability issues. Surprised? No.

[VkmSpouge]

I doubt an RML built daywoo would be 'cheap'

It's the only other RWD touring car you can buy (I think) - which has the edge in some circumstances...

It's just a shame about the engine (didn't they change to a mountune lump to improve it?)

The Chevrolet (Daewoo) Lacetti is FWD. I believe the RWD Super 2000 cars are the BMW, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz.

[m0rk]

The Chevrolet (Daewoo) Lacetti is FWD. I believe the RWD Super 2000 cars are the BMW, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz.

You don't say.

I was making the comment that the Lexii was RWD (and cheap)

[tisme]

Shouldn't BTC Racing start thinking of switching to a tried + tested car like a BMW or SEAT ??????????????

What a cracking idea!!!!

Your wish may have come true!

[mac853]

UK's Lexus let's me remember about the Project Mu's AOs racing Altezza drove by former japanese GT300 champion Takeuchi in Macau WTCC rounds in 2005. It was just a big failed car, even is built and revised by small Japan squad, maybe also due without of official support, that car was DNQ in these 2 rounds with absolutely slow times then Aos racing withdrawed the project. Before in Macau GP, i was in Zhuhai to watching last rounds of ATCS, i saw that car has hugely lower rhythm than those old private Engstler BMWs and Petronas Protons.
But i am confidence that car is at least better performance than the UK's ones.

[VkmSpouge]

I can't agree, the Ao Racing Toyota Altezza was very slow at Macau while both BTC Racing and Xero Competition's Lexus IS200s have had reasonable pace in the BTCC enough to score points on occasion.

[MattL]

Time to see if BTC's luck changes with two new cars - ex-Motorbase Toledos!

BTC Racing switches to SEAT Toledos (http://www.btccpages.com/news/NewsStory.php?SeriesID=1&ArticleID=1047)

[BDunnell]

How interesting! Shame about the IS200s.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It will be good to see Stockton in a better car. He occasionally got the lexus to punch above its weight. Could be a dark horse for a podium.

[VkmSpouge]

While I think it is a shame not to have the Lexus IS200 on the grid anymore (maybe Xero Competition will bring it back in sometime) it is probably the correct move by BTC Racing to go with the Toledos.

[AndySpeed]

The grid now consists of just SEAT, Vauxhall, BMW, Honda and Chevrolet cars (or will do once Jason Hughes finally gets his Integra).

Less diversity but probably more cars on the grid as BTC Racing has a much more reliable car.

I did wonder if Dave Bartrum was ever going to sell those Toledo's, knowing what they've been through...

[mattie007]

The grid now consists of just SEAT, Vauxhall, BMW, Honda and Chevrolet cars (or will do once Jason Hughes finally gets his Integra).


True, but then you have the Toledo and Leon, Vectra and Astra, 3 series and 1 series, Integra and Civics, plus the Lacetti and ZS (for Donington at least).

10 models of car isn't bad!

[Rover V8]

UK's Lexus let's me remember about the Project Mu's AOs racing Altezza drove by former japanese GT300 champion Takeuchi in Macau WTCC rounds in 2005. It was just a big failed car, even is built and revised by small Japan squad, maybe also due without of official support, that car was DNQ in these 2 rounds with absolutely slow times then Aos racing withdrawed the project. Before in Macau GP, i was in Zhuhai to watching last rounds of ATCS, i saw that car has hugely lower rhythm than those old private Engstler BMWs and Petronas Protons.
But i am confidence that car is at least better performance than the UK's ones.

Bluntly it comes down to one thing- the difficulty of developing any car without an adequate budget or factory support. I'll lay odds that if you could afford to have a Lexus built and prepared by Triple Eight, Schnitzer, RML or any of the top-line outfits, then you'd have something much much more competitive.

No disrespect meant to CDL, Xero or anyone else who's tried to run the car, but for a small privateer team, developing a car from scratch is always going to be a tough call... CDL have made the right decision parking them in favour of a proven product

[VkmSpouge]

True, but then you have the Toledo and Leon, Vectra and Astra, 3 series and 1 series, Integra and Civics, plus the Lacetti and ZS (for Donington at least).

10 models of car isn't bad!

Well we haven't had the BMW 1 Series so far this year (hopefully Rick Kerry and Nick Leason will be racing it soon) but there are two different models of Honda Civics racing, so it still equals ten.

[BTCR TM]

I hope you are all as excited as us, we are looking forward to racing our new cars. Chris and Stuart will need a bit of time to adjust to thier new cars, but we all look forward to some regular race finishes.

[BDunnell]

Bluntly it comes down to one thing- the difficulty of developing any car without an adequate budget or factory support. I'll lay odds that if you could afford to have a Lexus built and prepared by Triple Eight, Schnitzer, RML or any of the top-line outfits, then you'd have something much much more competitive.

No disrespect meant to CDL, Xero or anyone else who's tried to run the car, but for a small privateer team, developing a car from scratch is always going to be a tough call... CDL have made the right decision parking them in favour of a proven product

:up:

I think the decision shows that BTC is a perceptive team, and the very best of luck to them.

[mattie007]

Integra and Civics


but there are two different models of Honda Civics racing, so it still equals ten.

I know!

[BDunnell]

I hope you are all as excited as us, we are looking forward to racing our new cars. Chris and Stuart will need a bit of time to adjust to thier new cars, but we all look forward to some regular race finishes.

Absolutely! How competitive do you reckon those Toledos will be? Somewhere around the pace of the Eurotech Integras, possibly?

[VkmSpouge]

I hope you are all as excited as us, we are looking forward to racing our new cars. Chris and Stuart will need a bit of time to adjust to thier new cars, but we all look forward to some regular race finishes.

Will the Toledos be in the same livery as the Lexus?

[BTCR TM]

Let us have a run with the cars, before we make comment on how they will perform.

We look forward to being somewhere in the middle of the pack to start with.

We are reviewing the livery and how it looks on the Seat's, before we make any final comment.

[m0rk]

On some circuits the toledo's were very handy cars. Adam Jones pedalled his one to good effect last year.

I think they currently run a livery with a Toyota Dealer on it; which might be funny.

I hope they've got some spare engines

[Eurotech]

Shouldn't BTC Racing start thinking of switching to a tried + tested car like a BMW or SEAT ??????????????

OHHHHH YEAHHHHHH!!!!!!!

I will now claim the credit if they get good positions!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BTCR TM]

OHHHHH YEAHHHHHH!!!!!!!

I will now claim the credit if they get good positions!!!!!!!!!!!!

Im hoping the credit will go to the engineers, mechanics :s panner: and drivers, but we will also consider where the suggestions came from ;)

[mac853]

There's 1 more time again to meaning the S2000 rules' weakness: self builts cars never could compete with works cars. :o
If they use these oldie Toledo just surviving from tail of the grid but doesn't mean they will have more improvement, these Toledo are totally outdated.
Sadness news for a japanese car fans, like myself! :(

[mac853]

I think they currently run a livery with a Toyota Dealer on it; which might be funny.

This case let's me remember the similar 1, Geipel of Toyota Germany rented 1 of the E46 320i of Team Engstler in PROCAR series. But not because the performance of his Corolla, he just crash his car on practise session hugely meanwhile he couldn't repair his car on time.

[VkmSpouge]

There's 1 more time again to meaning the S2000 rules' weakness: self builts cars never could compete with works cars. :o

Team Dynamics Honda Civic and JAS Motorsport Honda Accord.

[BT 96]

Thank you,

The time had come to move on, Chris had done the best job he could do with the tools he had, now he has a new tool in the box so lets see how he gets on, Theres one thing I would like to say, and thats a big thanks to Dave Bartram at Motorbase, a top man who made this deal possible,for all at BTC racing to go racing,Thanks Dave, and also a big thanks to all our sponsors and supporters who have stuck with us.


BT


:up:

I think the decision shows that BTC is a perceptive team, and the very best of luck to them.

[BDunnell]

There's 1 more time again to meaning the S2000 rules' weakness: self builts cars never could compete with works cars.

As VkmSpouge points out above, they can if the team is well enough funded, and a really top-line preparation and car-building firm.

In truth, this isn't a weakness that's specific to the S2000 rules. Self-built cars weren't competitive under the Super Touring rules either — in fact, there are fewer examples of them being competitive than there are under S2000, as far as I recall.



If they use these oldie Toledo just surviving from tail of the grid but doesn't mean they will have more improvement, these Toledo are totally outdated.
Sadness news for a japanese car fans, like myself! :(

Yes, the Toledos are getting on a bit, but they were still capable of getting into the top 10 at the end of 2007, and they should be more reliable. The 2008 BTCC has undoubtedly taken a step forward in terms of competitiveness, hence why the Team Eurotech Integras seem to be struggling to get into the top 10 thus far without attrition and the reverse grid, but the Toledo is surely a better bet by any standards than the IS200.

[mac853]

Team Dynamics Honda Civic and JAS Motorsport Honda Accord.
Pardon, i just "ate" some words, i forgot to correct it.
I meant as before, the privateers teams without any factory supports, not just all self built cars.
STCC's A4, S60 and Astra were also running very well, instead of C200 which is little disappointment without a solid support by german factory.

[mac853]

As VkmSpouge points out above, they can if the team is well enough funded, and a really top-line preparation and car-building firm.

In truth, this isn't a weakness that's specific to the S2000 rules. Self-built cars weren't competitive under the Super Touring rules either — in fact, there are fewer examples of them being competitive than there are under S2000, as far as I recall.



Yes, the Toledos are getting on a bit, but they were still capable of getting into the top 10 at the end of 2007, and they should be more reliable. The 2008 BTCC has undoubtedly taken a step forward in terms of competitiveness, hence why the Team Eurotech Integras seem to be struggling to get into the top 10 thus far without attrition and the reverse grid, but the Toledo is surely a better bet by any standards than the IS200.
I think could be a little democratic and fairly, it also depended the diferrent race rules and cars.
I remember in ST cars era, there's many self-prepared private cars, even in JTCC or in ATCS, most of this cars could be competitive or winning in many races.
As well in actual DTM, don't we remember the Audi tts were always the back grid cars in since of season, just because they are semi-officials, but later isn't it victorious?
Like Prodrive's 550M, wasn't they unbeatables in FIAGT, then much more better than newer officials 575M.
Finally, we must to understand doesn't mean if the rules is more restrictive, like S2000, could mean competitive just because the lower cost, sometimes could be rising another crisis. Concluded, is just used to "throwing out" the ideas for the race car designers to have more chances to put the cars faster!

About these Toledos, i think they have basically good chassis, just remain some new parts, maybe try to be made by BTC themselves(if BTCC allowed in homologation) and make a total rebuilding and revision then try to put these cars with better performance.

[Rover V8]

I think could be a little democratic and fairly, it also depended the diferrent race rules and cars.
I remember in ST cars era, there's many self-prepared private cars, even in JTCC or in ATCS, most of this cars could be competitive or winning in many races.
As well in actual DTM, don't we remember the Audi tts were always the back grid cars in since of season, just because they are semi-officials, but later isn't it victorious?
Like Prodrive's 550M, wasn't they unbeatables in FIAGT, then much more better than newer officials 575M.
Finally, we must to understand doesn't mean if the rules is more restrictive, like S2000, could mean competitive just because the lower cost, sometimes could be rising another crisis. Concluded, is just used to "throwing out" the ideas for the race car designers to have more chances to put the cars faster!

About these Toledos, i think they have basically good chassis, just remain some new parts, maybe try to be made by BTC themselves(if BTCC allowed in homologation) and make a total rebuilding and revision then try to put these cars with better performance.

The Prodrive FIA GT Ferraris are a good illustration of the point- yes, the independently funded and developed Prodrive 550s were more competitive than the 'official' Michelotto 575s that followed- and if someone could afford to hire Prodrive to build and develop an S2000 Lexus, I expect they'd have a much more competitive proposition than any of the IS200s we've seen so far....

[VX_Rules]

I think two sayings apply to this,

"Money Talks" and "But money doesnt bring happyness"

Sure it helps considerably, but at the end of the day, you cant win alone on it.

[mac853]

If someone could afford to hire Prodrive to build and develop an S2000 Lexus, I expect they'd have a much more competitive proposition than any of the IS200s we've seen so far....
Wow, you make me licking the lips... :facelick:
But i don't think even Prodrive build an IS200 could put the car so further, don't we remember that S60 has also some troubles then never won a race in ETCC.
Maybe be victorious if put an IS220D on race, but wait, how about the situation of LGT project?
Could somebody is close of the personnel of this squad has still some information, it is withdrawed?
I think maybe there're some BTCC teams were really waiting for LGT selling their customized racing chassis, just because they've cancelled already so BTC racing purchased Toledos for rest of season, is really this reason or i am just so imaginative? :confused:

[BTCR TM]

Wow, you make me licking the lips... :facelick:
But i don't think even Prodrive build an IS200 could put the car so further, don't we remember that S60 has also some troubles then never won a race in ETCC.
Maybe be victorious if put an IS220D on race, but wait, how about the situation of LGT project?
Could somebody is close of the personnel of this squad has still some information, it is withdrawed?
I think maybe there're some BTCC teams were really waiting for LGT selling their customized racing chassis, just because they've cancelled already so BTC racing purchased Toledos for rest of season, is really this reason or i am just so imaginative? :confused:

I'm sorry mac853, I think your imagination has got the better of you. The progress or demise of the LGT lexus work had no bearing on our choice of the Seat's.

[mac853]

I'm sorry mac853, I think your imagination has got the better of you. The progress or demise of the LGT lexus work had no bearing on our choice of the Seat's.
Yeah :D yeah :D !
Thanks for your soon reply, i type a little bit much in the weekends! :D
Wait, is this just a defensive reason to choose Toledos?
Or You're just have much more secret progress as i said before, to rebuilding totally these non-developing Toledos, don't you?

Let me remind something, in 2005 when SEAT changed Leon in the middle season, Oreca got 1 of Toledo was driven by Ortelli, this french squad had re-prepared totally this ex-work car then Ortelli could run as fast as the newest Leons.

[Eurotech]

That was in 2005 though, when the SEAT Leons were new. Im not sure it would still work...