DTM vs Super 2000

[AndyRAC]

Following on from the German Touring Car thread, I was just wondering what are people's opinions on the differences between the 2 regulations. I do agree that the DTM cars aren't 'Tourers', but why do they keep building these' Silhouette Racers'? No other country does, I've never understood why they have to be different.

[BDunnell]

You could say the same about the V8s in Australia. They are just popular there. In the UK we have always been more fond of a mix of cars. I would actually rather watch an S2000 race than a DTM race, because I'm not obsessed with the power of the cars.

[mac853]

Well, i actually believe you are asking about S2000 VS Silhouette cars, in the case old DTM(until 1992) era only allow high modified GroupA cars, not like now, Prototype cars covered with wide saloon car bodies.
So S2000 is high modified cars derived from S. Production rules.

[AndyRAC]

You could say the same about the V8s in Australia. They are just popular there. In the UK we have always been more fond of a mix of cars. I would actually rather watch an S2000 race than a DTM race, because I'm not obsessed with the power of the cars.

While the DTM has Audi, Mercedes and Opel, the Aussie V8's just have Holden and Ford. While I think they are better cars, I think the S2000's have more variety of Manufacturers, which I think, ultimately, is better.

[LiamM]

Following on from the German Touring Car thread, I was just wondering what are people's opinions on the differences between the 2 regulations. I do agree that the DTM cars aren't 'Tourers', but why do they keep building these' Silhouette Racers'? No other country does, I've never understood why they have to be different.

The DTM is a bit of a showpiece for the German Motor Industry (well Merc and Audi anyway) a bit of a look what we can do exercise. S2000 regulations are rather restrictive in what it allows teams to do with the cars

EDIT: The regulations allow a lot of Manufacturers to enter their cars without spending a lot of money which is why we have seen S2000 becoming a relative sucess

[AndyRAC]

The DTM is a bit of a showpiece for the German Motor Industry (well Merc and Audi anyway) a bit of a look what we can do exercise. S2000 regulations are rather restrictive in what it allows teams to do with the cars

EDIT: The regulations allow a lot of Manufacturers to enter their cars without spending a lot of money which is why we have seen S2000 becoming a relative sucess

I thought as so, but I would imagine it's quite expensive for what is a 'Domestic' series.

[BDunnell]

The DTM is a bit of a showpiece for the German Motor Industry (well Merc and Audi anyway) a bit of a look what we can do exercise.

And now, it seems, giving ex-F1 drivers cars that are powerful enough to satisfy them when their GP days are over.

[wedge]

Super GTs in Japan uses silhouettes. The new Skyline GTR uses the same 350z chassis.

Silhouettes ensures more parity and easy to regulate and give certain cars extra help where necessary eg. Audi TTs in DTM, single template in NASCAR.

The problem with something like S2000 there's a grey area regarding homolagation. There was a huge fuss over the Alfa Romeo bodykits in early 90s BTCC because aero aids were forbidden. I'm surprised its been relatively quiet regarding VXR's front bumpers.

[Iain]

Aero aids weren't forbidden back then, it was controversial because the wings and splitters could be adjusted. They got round that issue by supplying extra pieces for the rear wing with the 155 Silverstone roadcar. Then by 1995, fixed rear wings were mandatory, so Alfa struggled with the 155 from then on, as it's main advantage had been taken away.

There's no real issue with VXR's bumpers. They have to make a certain number of roadcars with these parts available, but it doesn't mean they actually have to be sold to the public.

[BDunnell]

Aero aids weren't forbidden back then, it was controversial because the wings and splitters could be adjusted.

And because other teams felt it was unfair, largely because some (Renault and BMW, if I remember rightly) had cocked up their homologation of wings and the rest hadn't done anything.

[peewhee]

While the DTM has Audi, Mercedes and Opel, the Aussie V8's just have Holden and Ford. While I think they are better cars, I think the S2000's have more variety of Manufacturers, which I think, ultimately, is better.

Sorry.. But sod the variety!

I would rather watch 30-fire breathing, earth shattering V8 Supercars than 30 S2000 spec Touring cars any day of the week! :s mokin:

As yet NOTHING in the UK has come anywhere near them!

[JSH]

What I'd really like to see is V8Supercar VS DTM.

Unfortunately they've never run on the same track, they've come close - DTM in Turkey, V8Supercars in Bahrain...

[AndyRAC]

What I'd really like to see is V8Supercar VS DTM.

Unfortunately they've never run on the same track, they've come close - DTM in Turkey, V8Supercars in Bahrain...

I'd like to see that, just imagine it!
S2000 are tame by comparison, completely different league.

[kmchow]

I do agree that the DTM cars aren't 'Tourers', but why do they keep building these' Silhouette Racers'? No other country does, I've never understood why they have to be different.
There's a huge series in America, called Nascar! :D They're definitely silhoutte racers. I believe France's top racing series is a silhoutte one.

I forget if Argentian's TC2000 has become silhoutte as well?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

They are both rubbish, but Super 2000 is less rubbish. V8's are OK, but they need to run more races of Clipsal-type length. I personally quite like the cars in the Italian Superstars series, but nothing comes close to Super Touring.

[AndyRAC]

They are both rubbish, but Super 2000 is less rubbish. V8's are OK, but they need to run more races of Clipsal-type length. I personally quite like the cars in the Italian Superstars series, but nothing comes close to Super Touring.

Are you really being serious?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Are you really being serious?

Yes, why wouldn't I be? Super 2000 is a failure. The BTC regulations were good, but they could have used bigger cars.

[mac853]

The regulations allow a lot of Manufacturers to enter their cars without spending a lot of money which is why we have seen S2000 becoming a relative sucess
This is the main fact which FIA creates S2000, let me remind from beginning, some cars(ETCC and many nationals series) are just put on SP cars racing with upgrades kits, in the case to attracting many Manuf. or privateers without high budget to join up.
Unfortunately, the situation as we saw now are:
- Only join up SEAT and Chevrolet
- Volvo, Peugeot, Ford and Alfa Romeo are withdrawed already
- Honda is still semi-official
- Brilliance rumoured before but cancel the project due the unpreviewed high budget, just still remaining in China Circuit Champs.

So i think this rule isn't worther than old ST rules, S2000 almost "lie" us.

The other problems which we saw is: if without any support by manufacturer, is very difficult to be competitive if you want to convert any road car to S2000 spec with your own garage, ex: MB C200 in STCC and many Lexus IS200 in BTCC.
The other is problem of only allowing FIA homologation and 4 doors saloon cars in WTCC, for myself is "lying advantage" if you really want joining more manufacturers, we must remember many SP rule cars are just 2 doors, that's why it's more popular. But as we saw in some national series which leave out these rules then gain advantage for more car models and official teams, which introduced now S2000 nationals and S2000 WTCC specs, to put the races more interesting, ex:STCC has Audi A4, BTCC has Honda Civic and Vauxhall Vectra, ATCS has Mugen Integra DC5.
Maybe FIA note the problems happened, so now is rumoured to mixing S2000 with N4 cars like now in the rally, to try leaving the trouble of lack of manufacturers(mainly japanese cars) and privateers(cars tuners).

[LiamM]

Yes, why wouldn't I be? Super 2000 is a failure. The BTC regulations were good, but they could have used bigger cars.

I think S2000 has done the best it can in the current financial climate. At the minute its unattractive for many manufacturers to develop new cars. Compounding this fact is the fact that sister companies are already racing

SEAT piling money in the Leon TDi removes VW, Audi, Skoda etc from the equation
Chevrolet removes Vauxhall/Opel/Saab etc

The list goes on

But the fact that in the current BTCC we have nearly a full grid, (and even tho every driver isn't of a top standard, there is three distinct groups where battles on the track occur) means the rules must be successful to a degree

WTCC has a problem in its design, as if some manufacturers dont sell their cars in far flung places like Brazil etc, why should they spend all that money to fly their cars over there when National Championships are suitable enough. But then again the FIA don't help themselves the rule breaks for cars maybe good if your lagging behind a little bit, but no-one can gain a major advantage as it will be quickly taken off them, probably a reason why there is 6 Leons and more BMWs! The there is the FIA themselves, they dont help themselves by scheduling races on the same day as the national races BTCC:WTCC, why they did this god only knows, but the BTCC will always get the bigger audience, and again, why should teams pay to ship their cars all round the world to showcase them in front of crowds only half as big as the cheaper championship down the road

[AndyRAC]

People may not agree with me, but listen up. Both of the FIA’s ‘lesser’ World Championships are struggling for more Manufacturers. So why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone – and have virtually identical regulations/cars for both series. For the WRC just add a Turbo/4WD. Then so Ford could use a 2L Focus in WTCC/BTCC, add a Turbo/4WD and use it for WRC. Or is this being silly. Both Championships have huge potential, but are being held back by restrictions/costs/etc

[racer69]

DTM has high powered cars driving from the proper end (RWD), but lacks manufacturers and the appeal for the privateers

Super2000 is generally pretty unexciting to watch, but has a great array of manufacturers competing, and appeals to the private entrants.


What I'd really like to see is V8Supercar VS DTM.

Unfortunately they've never run on the same track, they've come close - DTM in Turkey, V8Supercars in Bahrain...

DTM cars would be much quicker, hands down.

[mac853]

DTM has high powered cars driving from the proper end (RWD), but lacks manufacturers and the appeal for the privateers

Super2000 is generally pretty unexciting to watch, but has a great array of manufacturers competing, and appeals to the private entrants.



DTM cars would be much quicker, hands down.

About which reg. car perform better, this case let's me remind the evolution of the TC races belonged in these 15 years. Never care about the cars speed and technology, instead on lower cost and put the opponents closer for more interesting in the races, but not always could satisfied as previewed.
For example in Macau Guia race:
- 98-99 ST could run similar times then better than DTM's 92-93 cars but the problems are the privates could never run alike the works in the case the cars are still expensive and difficult to find upgraded parts,
- then introduced SP(2000-2003) which are the cheapest, could only run 10 seconds slower per lap than ST which the BMW are the monopoly of the series,
- until actual is Super2000 which the cost are much more expensive than SP but similar of ST and old DTM, but the races are always very close, and the running times are closer as the ST.

So not only the races are care for spectators,also for drivers.

[BDunnell]

Let's not forget that the formulae used in touring car racing in Europe especially have been prone to fading out and having to be replaced. Super Touring was great until manufacturers and teams got too professional and started spending too much money. It also became too popular. Having nine or 10 manufacturers in the BTCC in 1994-95 seemed great, but of course some were going to pull out because of a lack of success. Not all of those nine or 10 manufacturers were going to have the chance to be successful, after all!

At least S2000 has the advantage of a bit less flexibility in its rules, stopping teams from doing anything too different from one another, but now we have the situation whereby you seem to need a TDi engine to win. This hasn't been healthy at Le Mans, in my opinion, and it doesn't seem healthy for touring cars.

I wonder, then, what the next big formula for European touring car racing (and I include the WTCC in that, given its roots) will be? Maybe S2000, with some tweaks to the regulations, will outlast its predecessors?

[LiamM]

At least S2000 has the advantage of a bit less flexibility in its rules, stopping teams from doing anything too different from one another, but now we have the situation whereby you seem to need a TDi engine to win. This hasn't been healthy at Le Mans, in my opinion, and it doesn't seem healthy for touring cars.

I don't think we need to worry too much about the invasion from the Dark Side. BMW are developing their diesel engine, and when SEAT Sport UK get properly on top of their Leon I think we will see Vauxhall starting to worry and developing a diesel (possible combination with Chevrolet here?).

It not take long before these cars begin to filter down to the smaller teams and privateers, and then we will be able to hold a normal conversation trackside. You only had to look at when S2000 was favoured in the BTCC, it didnt take teams long to get their hands on S2000 cars capable competing at their level

[philipbain]

What I'd really like to see is V8Supercar VS DTM.

Unfortunately they've never run on the same track, they've come close - DTM in Turkey, V8Supercars in Bahrain...

Its a nice thought but the truth is that a DTM car would thrash an Aussie V8, they are just much more sophisticated aerodynamically and the chassis is frankly a lot better as a result (to cope with the loadings etc.).

As for S2000 vs. Silhouette there are advantages to both, S2000 is a better showcase of a road going product as the racers are based on showroom models (obviously considerably modified), but silhouette formulas allow manufacturers to change to new models or make cosmetic changes very easily and quickly without having to make a whole new car and have to start from scratch, so it's not true to say that silhouette formula cars are intrinsically more expensive.

[BDunnell]

I don't think we need to worry too much about the invasion from the Dark Side. BMW are developing their diesel engine, and when SEAT Sport UK get properly on top of their Leon I think we will see Vauxhall starting to worry and developing a diesel (possible combination with Chevrolet here?).

It not take long before these cars begin to filter down to the smaller teams and privateers, and then we will be able to hold a normal conversation trackside. You only had to look at when S2000 was favoured in the BTCC, it didnt take teams long to get their hands on S2000 cars capable competing at their level

My problem with this is that I don't want S2000 to become, in effect, a diesel-only formula!

[LiamM]

My problem with this is that I don't want S2000 to become, in effect, a diesel-only formula!

Me neither, but it looks thats the way its going to go, Hydrogen fuel racing anyone?

[philipbain]

My problem with this is that I don't want S2000 to become, in effect, a diesel-only formula!

Its true that as the rules stand Diesel seems to have an advantage, how about spicing things up by letting the petrol cars run low pressure turbos and E85, its more environmentally sound (renewable fuel) and would spice up interest. Also make the diesels run bio diesel.

[Eurotech]

What I'd like to see is an S2000 (maybe Vectra) a DTM (Merc?) and a Aussie V8 all ballasted up to have the same power to weight ratio and see which is faster on a lap of say Brands hatch.................

[LiamM]

Its true that as the rules stand Diesel seems to have an advantage, how about spicing things up by letting the petrol cars run low pressure turbos and E85, its more environmentally sound (renewable fuel) and would spice up interest. Also make the diesels run bio diesel.

Low pressure turbos no way!

E85 - WTCC will be E85 only soon (next year?) and in the BTCC its already allowed