Discraceful - Olympic torch relay

[Daniel]

I personally think that it's crazy for anyone not currently living in China to think we possibly know more about what takes place there than people currently living in China. And I think it's disgraceful to use something such as the Olympics as a means to protest what most of us probably don't completely understand to begin with.

But what about the stuff we do know. Is it not worth being unhappy about that?

[Valve Bounce]

I didn't make the frenck interview, I just post the link here and if you want to give points to someone, you got the wrong person. If you don't like the link, you can report it to Admin, ask he/she to remove the link or even all my posts.

However when you said I got that wrong, then you should make an explanation on what the wording of " a clumsy Chinese student in Hong Kong' refering to. Giving me ten out of ten on my english or asking me to go to other websites doesn't cover your words you posted.

I said the website looked like the job of a clumsy Chinese student and I gace it two out of ten. Having seen the dubbing of the unsynchronised lip movements of the French interview, what marking would you give that?

I have little doubt that you speak Chinese as well as English - your English is very good and I give you ten out of ten. My intonation when speaking Cantonese is faultless also, but unfortunately my vocab is lousy as I had not spoken Cantonese for decades. So I guess I would give myself 2 out of 10 for my Cantonese.

[Valve Bounce]

I understand what you are saying paulcrazy. Many native English speakers assume that if you cannot speak English 100% perfect that you are not so smart. Try talking to native English speakers in your own tongue and they look stupid. Don't worry, I come across this every day. I understand your post, as do others, but some will try to undermine you to their advantage when making points. Keep practicing your English, and don't worry about what others say about your spelling, grammar etc.

I was referring to the amateurish attempt at whoever made the website linked by paulcrazy as the french spoken apepar to be out of synchronisation with the lips. If you bothered to read my post you'd see that was what I said. :rolleyes:

[maxu05]

One thing I find amusing, is the Chinese family that was detained for whacking some anti-China protesters with an inflatable plastic baton. I used to bump my daughter on the head with one of those things when she was 1 year old. The so called victims are claiming assault. What do you call throwing water balloons, or pushing torch bearers to try and extinguish the flame. Why are they not charged with assault. Double standards there I think.

[maxu05]

I was referring to the amateurish attempt at whoever made the website linked by paulcrazy as the french spoken apepar to be out of synchronisation with the lips. If you bothered to read my post you'd see that was what I said. :rolleyes:

I have watched many a DVD where the lips did not sync with the sound,( I bought the DVD's from Amazon by the way). Are you saying that the footage was doctored ? Or are you stating that the quality of the footage was poor ? What's your point ?

[Valve Bounce]

One thing I find amusing, is the Chinese family that was detained for whacking some anti-China protesters with an inflatable plastic baton. I used to bump my daughter on the head with one of those things when she was 1 year old. The so called victims are claiming assault. What do you call throwing water balloons, or pushing torch bearers to try and extinguish the flame. Why are they not charged with assault. Double standards there I think.

I don't really know what you are referring to, but there has been a lot of violent protests and treatment of protestors has also been very harsh. I am just hoping that this will not happen in Canberra.

This morning in our news there was footage of quite violent skirmishes in Paris and London. Don't know whether you had access to these footages, but take it from me, it was a helluva lot more serious than that inflatable plastic baton. Also, one policeman in London copped a spray from a fire extinguisher which was directed at the Olympic Torch. I suppose, if you saw it, then you know what I'm talking about.

[Valve Bounce]

Now this is interesting: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23579289-2702,00.html

[kalasend]

If he thinks that he can get all the news I can then good for him. He's wrong but there's only so long you can argue like children over something for.

Just think a little deeper, at current time the Chinese gov has no urge to block any news related to Tibet. As a matter of fact, Chinese gov need not censor news about Tibet and Taiwan at all. These news post no threat to the regime. Better yet, the regime benefits from the kind of resistant sentiment these news create because in some way it strengthen the tie between the party(gov) and the people.

[maxu05]

I don't really know what you are referring to, but there has been a lot of violent protests and treatment of protestors has also been very harsh. I am just hoping that this will not happen in Canberra.

This morning in our news there was footage of quite violent skirmishes in Paris and London. Don't know whether you had access to these footages, but take it from me, it was a helluva lot more serious than that inflatable plastic baton. Also, one policeman in London copped a spray from a fire extinguisher which was directed at the Olympic Torch. I suppose, if you saw it, then you know what I'm talking about.


So, who was directing the fire extinguisher ? Anti-Chinese protesters. You have just helped me make my point. It's great for Anti-Chinese protesters to spray a fire extinguisher at the flame and injure people, but it's not OK for a Chinese protester, or an official/volunteer to protect it.

[Valve Bounce]

So, who was directing the fire extinguisher ? Anti-Chinese protesters. You have just helped me make my point. It's great for Anti-Chinese protesters to spray a fire extinguisher at the flame and injure people, but it's not OK for a Chinese protester, or an official/volunteer to protect it.

Not really; he was wacked by the Chinese thugs protecting the Olympic flame. These thigs do more than just protect the flame - they attacked anyone who tried to grab the flame. I am not suggesting it is acceptable for anyone to manhandle anyone carrying the flame or hte flame itself, but I maintain that it is unacceptable for these thugs to act as violent ly as they did.

As for Kalasend's post, it is so remote from what is happening that I won't even bother to respond to such silliness, except to suggest you check out the Official Beijing Olympic website and see how much of these demonstrations are even mentioned.

[kalasend]

As for Kalasend's post, it is so remote from what is happening that I won't even bother to respond to such silliness, except to suggest you check out the Official Beijing Olympic website and see how much of these demonstrations are even mentioned.

Why would the Olympic website report these news? I wouldn't if I were a program director role. Leave it to the news agencies. Olympic website reflects the Olympic games/sports, which has nothing to do with political views and actions of anybody.

[Valve Bounce]

Why would the Olympic website report these news? I wouldn't if I were a program director role. Leave it to the news agencies. Olympic website reflects the Olympic games/sports, which has nothing to do with political views and actions of anybody.


I guess you never checked the glowing reports about the Olympic Torch relays in London, Paris and San Fran in that website, did you!!.

[kalasend]

I guess you never checked the glowing reports about the Olympic Torch relays in London, Paris and San Fran in that website, did you!!.

The Olympic spirit has nothing to do with politics in the very first place. The Olympic website has every legitimate reason not mentioning these political noises which the Olympic Games is not supposed to deal with. I'm sure the pro-Tibetans agree that the protests are not directed towards Olympic Games as well.

Now, are you complaining that the Olympic Games isn't politically sensitive enough?

If you want to refine your question to whether the Chinese public are seeing every bit of the Tibet-related protesting, my answer would be yes. If you have doubts, my first post was the explanation. I am not saying the Communist regime has opened up. It's just that, nowadays it is unnecessary to censor away all the western opinions about "freeing" parts of China.

[Daniel]

The Olympic spirit has nothing to do with politics in the very first place. The Olympic website has every legitimate reason not mentioning these political noises which the Olympic Games is not supposed to deal with. I'm sure the pro-Tibetans agree that the protests are not directed towards Olympic Games as well.

Now, are you complaining that the Olympic Games isn't politically sensitive enough?

Why does the Olympic Spirit have nothing to do with politics? Because you say so?

Go back to making knockoff LV wallets and leave the morals decisions to people who actually have some.

[kalasend]

Why does the Olympic Spirit have nothing to do with politics? Because you say so?

Go back to making knockoff LV wallets and leave the morals decisions to people who actually have some.

Yes, I said so because I was taught so by the British colonial education. But I'm very open-minded. Please quote me a line or statement from any authority that Olympic Games are supposed to tie with politics.

[Daniel]

Yes, I said so because I was taught so by the British colonial education. But I'm very open-minded. Please quote me a line or statement from any authority that Olympic Games are supposed to tie with politics.
Since when were the colonial Brits the fountain of all that is moral and just :eek:

This is getting crazier and crazier by the minute.

[kalasend]

Since when were the colonial Brits the fountain of all that is moral and just :eek:

This is getting crazier and crazier by the minute.

I was merely saying I was not educated under a Communistic education system, as I suspect you would have thought I am. Now let's get back to the quoting request and not argue for argument's sake, shall we?

[Valve Bounce]

The Olympic spirit has nothing to do with politics in the very first place. The Olympic website has every legitimate reason not mentioning these political noises which the Olympic Games is not supposed to deal with. I'm sure the pro-Tibetans agree that the protests are not directed towards Olympic Games as well.

Now, are you complaining that the Olympic Games isn't politically sensitive enough?

If you want to refine your question to whether the Chinese public are seeing every bit of the Tibet-related protesting, my answer would be yes. If you have doubts, my first post was the explanation. I am not saying the Communist regime has opened up. It's just that, nowadays it is unnecessary to censor away all the western opinions about "freeing" parts of China.

The Official Olympic Website is nothing more than a propaganda mouthpiece. But it's nice to know that you are speaking on behalf of the Tibetans.

[Daniel]

I was merely saying I was not educated under a Communistic education system, as I suspect you would have thought I am. Now let's get back to the quoting request and not argue for argument's sake, shall we?

Who told you I thought like that? The communist media perhaps? :laugh:

Quotes are merely opinions and as we know opinions are like bumholes, as in everyone has one. They're mostly meaningless.

I wonder if you would feel that the Olympics were a sacred event if it was your country who was occupied by another and they were holding the Olympics :)

[Valve Bounce]

Yes, I said so because I was taught so by the British colonial education. But I'm very open-minded. Please quote me a line or statement from any authority that Olympic Games are supposed to tie with politics.

When/How did the British colonial education teach you that the Olympics is not about politics? What school in HK did you go to when they supposedly taught you that? I can mention quite a few Olympics that were about politics. Like the one in Melbourne, Moscow, Los Angeles, even Soeul. You must live a very closseted life to think that politics is not involved in the Olympics. Even in the Sydney games, politics was involved.

[kalasend]

When/How did the British colonial education teach you that the Olympics is not about politics? What school in HK did you go to when they supposedly taught you that? I can mention quite a few Olympics that were about politics. Like the one in Melbourne, Moscow, Los Angeles, even Soeul. You must live a very closseted life to think that politics is not involved in the Olympics. Even in the Sydney games, politics was involved.

The Olympics became political because people made it political.

You see, I am not against having protests on the way of the torch relay. If you would like your voices heard and you can make it peacefully, be my guest. But then you go yelling, "they are morons for not publicizing our protest on the Olympics site." And you expect other people to think this is wisdom?

[BDunnell]

The Olympic spirit has nothing to do with politics in the very first place.

That may be true, but this is simply not the case now. In truth, the Olympics and politics have been almost inextricably linked since Hitler decided to use the 1936 Olympics for his own ends, and even more so since the Black Power protests of 1968.

I also think it's rather naive to think that the Olympics today represent anything especially noble. Yes, most of the athletes themselves (except those that cheat, but they have always existed in different ways) uphold the spirit of competition and human endeavour, but the Games themselves are so commercialised, and the IOC so riven with corruption, that the notion that the Olympic ideals are something worth hanging on to just doesn't hold true any more. The IOC abandoned them years ago, but would never say so.

[Valve Bounce]

But then you go yelling, "they are morons for not publicizing our protest on the Olympics site." And you expect other people to think this is wisdom?

Hehehe!!! your words, your thoughts, not mine!!

[maxu05]

I wonder if you would feel that the Olympics were a sacred event if it was your country who was occupied by another and they were holding the Olympics :)

Hong Kong was occupied by a foreign country as I recall. The British seized it from the Chinese, because the Chinese didn't like them pushing their drugs.

[BDunnell]

I think any comparison between the policies of the mid-19th century, when Britain took control of Hong Kong, and the early 21st century is almost entirely irrelevant. After all, our ideas of what is deemed acceptable have changed so radically — take slavery, for example — that parallels are all but impossible.

By the way, the implied assumption that us Brits aren't ashamed of many of our country's actions while we were a major colonial power is entirely wrong.

[Malbec]

The Olympics became political because people made it political.

You see, I am not against having protests on the way of the torch relay. If you would like your voices heard and you can make it peacefully, be my guest. But then you go yelling, "they are morons for not publicizing our protest on the Olympics site." And you expect other people to think this is wisdom?

If a country bids for an international event as popular as the Olympics it ought to both expect and be confident enough to deal with intense international scrutiny of its policies.

When have the Olympics been political? When the Olympics were cancelled for the squabble that was WW2 that despite its breadth only affected a minority of the worlds countries. It became political when Hitler chose the 36 Olympics to use it as a platform for demonstrating Aryan superiority. It was political throughout the Cold War. It became political when developing countries such as China chose to bid for it as a mark of how far the country had come economically. Don't call the Olympics an apolitical event, that is a comment of astonishing naivety.

The fact that the Chinese government are both uncomfortable with and surprised by the furore surrounding the torch suggests to me that they are not at peace with their own actions in Tibet. A truly confident state wouldn't give a damn rather like the Soviet Union over the Moscow 1980 boycott.

[maxu05]

OK, fair enough, after all, my mum is a Pom, so in fact I am half Brit, and half Scot :D I was just trying to point out that many countries have been occupied at one time or another.

[Valve Bounce]

Hong Kong was occupied by a foreign country as I recall. The British seized it from the Chinese, because the Chinese didn't like them pushing their drugs.

I must have missed something there because I don't remember the Olympics being held in Hong Kong. I do not remember any torch relay there either. Maybe I was working too hard in the hillsides checking the safety of squatter villages from impending landslides. I do remember hundereds of thousands, maybe even millions of Chinese fleeing China to live in those squatter huts in Hong Kong. Things couldn't have been that great for them in China.

P.S. Those who lived in squatter huts endangered by landslides were rehoused in high rise flats built for them by the then English run Hong Kong Government.

Maxu - don't tread where you have no idea what you are talking about.

[kalasend]

I do remember hundereds of thousands, maybe even millions of Chinese fleeing China to live in those squatter huts in Hong Kong. Things couldn't have been that great for them in China.

If you would like to be updated: Nowadays Hong Kong cannot live without the immense amount of cash brought by the Mainlanders.


P.S. Those who lived in squatter huts endangered by landslides were rehoused in high rise flats built for them by the then English run Hong Kong Government.

I don't know what the intent of this statement is from you. But if and only if you are thinking the post-colonial HK government doesn't do that any more, you are ill-informed. In fact, from 1998 to 2003-ish, the gov built so much more affordable housing that the real estate prices were badly affected, dragging the local economy and forcing the gov to stop the benevolent policies.

[Valve Bounce]

If you would like to be updated: Nowadays Hong Kong cannot live without the immense amount of cash brought by the Mainlanders.



I don't know what the intent of this statement is from you. But if and only if you are thinking the post-colonial HK government doesn't do that any more, you are ill-informed. In fact, from 1998 to 2003-ish, the gov built so much more affordable housing that the real estate prices were badly affected, dragging the local economy and forcing the gov to stop the benevolent policies.

1) How does the immense amount of money brought in by the mainlanders prevent the people from Hong kong of "Not Living"? Will the perish, starve, or simply wilt away?

1) My point here is that the people from China were fleeing to Hong Kong in their hundreds of thousands, probably millions and were living in squatter huts, many of them on dangerous hillsides. Many of these have been re-housed by the Hong Kong Government while I was working there. I know because I was involved in the clearance of those squatters. This had nothing to do with affordable housing, these squatters were allocated housing free.
I don't recall people from Hong Kong fleeing to China in their millions, thousands, or even hundreds to live in China.
Even criminals didn't dare to flee to China - in Hong Kong they got a fair trial and a reasonable sentence; in China they had a flitting trial, marched to the paddy field and got shot in the back of the head. Their families were then charged for the bullet.

I trust this satisfies your query.

[kalasend]

Even criminals didn't dare to flee to China - in Hong Kong they got a fair trial and a reasonable sentence

This part is plain wrong. The inefficient communication between HK and Mainland police force makes China the most convenient hiding place for HK criminals. And HK criminals caught in mainland, as long as they don't commit more crime there, are always handed over to HK(Yes, they do honor the separate administration system). So they got nothing to lose by running to China.

Anyways, I meant to say the followings:
1) It is ignorant to relate Tibet and Taiwan to China being communist ruled. A democratic China would not please the separatists. And a democratic China would not give up Tibet and Taiwan.

2) It is illiterate to think that just because people of a place want independence then they deserve to be independent and any opposing side is evil. Any nation would fight for the integrity of its sovereign land. History is not short of examples of this sort. Some nations managed to hang on to its land, some didn't. But at the end, who's evil?

3) All western nations desire a transparent, democratic but at the same time a weak, divided China. Some nations act the later by disguising with the former.

[Valve Bounce]

This part is plain wrong. The inefficient communication between HK and Mainland police force makes China the most convenient hiding place for HK criminals. And HK criminals caught in mainland, as long as they don't commit more crime there, are always handed over to HK(Yes, they do honor the separate administration system). So they got nothing to lose by running to China.

Anyways, I meant to say the followings:
1) It is ignorant to relate Tibet and Taiwan to China being communist ruled. A democratic China would not please the separatists. And a democratic China would not give up Tibet and Taiwan.

2) It is illiterate to think that just because people of a place want independence then they deserve to be independent and any opposing side is evil. Any country would fight for the integrity of its sovereign land. History is not short of examples.

3) All western nations desire a transparent, democratic but at the same time a weak, divided China. Some nations act the later by disguising with the former.


First of all, I can demonstrate one single cae where you are wrong in 1). In the case where there was an armed robbery of the jetfoil's casino takings between HK and China, those who were caught in HK received relatively light sentences; those caught in China were executed in the manner I described.
2) I don't think you even know the meaning of the word illiteracy. Maybe you might want to rephrase your paragraph. What the demonstrations are about are teh human rights abuses in Tibet - something wich illiteracy has nothing to do with.
3) You seem to like to dodge any discussions I make that show you in a poor light as in the post above.

You just like propaganda as long as it favours China - why not admit it?

[kalasend]

First of all, I can demonstrate one single cae where you are wrong in 1). In the case where there was an armed robbery of the jetfoil's casino takings between HK and China, those who were caught in HK received relatively light sentences; those caught in China were executed in the manner I described.
2) I don't think you even know the meaning of the word illiteracy. Maybe you might want to rephrase your paragraph. What the demonstrations are about are teh human rights abuses in Tibet - something wich illiteracy has nothing to do with.
3) You seem to like to dodge any discussions I make that show you in a poor light as in the post above.

You just like propaganda as long as it favours China - why not admit it?

I didn't dodge anything, I just tried to pull the discussion to what matters. You logics only revolve around these:
1) China is evil (and I don't even know whether you think the gov is evil or the people)
2) Since China is evil, anything she(or her ppl) says is lie
3) Because of 2), the only trust-worthy information come from (insert your favorite news agency)

You basically distrust anything that doesn't "demonize" China. Anything that does not match your perception about China is stamped with Chinese censorship or simply fake.

Like this recent Tibet thing, in HK we all saw from TV how the Tibetans burn cars, shops and attack on civilians(both ethnic Chinese and Tibetans). And then foreign media claim that Tibetan civilians got killed while protesting for human rights. Your response is simply that Chinese media(including HK)

And then even when you believe all the violent happenings, you say this is because of human rights violation done by the regime that caused the riot in the first place.

PS. I don't know where you pull that jetfoil news from, but i'll research on that. But one thing for you to think about: like the concept of "international sea area", the HK ocean border is very short from the land. Technically a sea robbery can be handled solely by Chinese military. Especially if the incident happens in between HK and Macao.

[Valve Bounce]

Just try to read my posts above and discuss those issues that I have made. Don't put words to me that I have not written. This is a discussion forum, not a propaganda megaphone.

The jetfoil robbery case is a demonstration of what happens when the perpetrators are later caught in both China and Hong Kong - not who has jurisdiction on the sea.

Just try to concentrate on the issues of the discussion.

[maxu05]

The original topic was the disgraceful behavior of the protesters attacking the Olympic Torch. Since then, the discussion has been about human rights in China, Hong Kong and Tibet. I feel that Kalasends comments are valid here, and should be included in the discussion. You seem to want to steer the discussions to suit your own preference, dismissing others opinions and arguments as not relevant when it suits you.

[Valve Bounce]

The original topic was the disgraceful behavior of the protesters attacking the Olympic Torch. Since then, the discussion has been about human rights in China, Hong Kong and Tibet. I feel that Kalasends comments are valid here, and should be included in the discussion. You seem to want to steer the discussions to suit your own preference, dismissing others opinions and arguments as not relevant when it suits you.

Well, perhaps you'd like to answer the points I addressed to you. I've given up discussing anything with Kalasand as he appears to skip the issues and just makes more and more out landish propaganda statements.

[Daniel]

The original topic was the disgraceful behavior of the protesters attacking the Olympic Torch. Since then, the discussion has been about human rights in China, Hong Kong and Tibet. I feel that Kalasends comments are valid here, and should be included in the discussion. You seem to want to steer the discussions to suit your own preference, dismissing others opinions and arguments as not relevant when it suits you.

What? THe protests are ABOUT human rights in Tibet. Stop making them two different things

[BDunnell]

The original topic was the disgraceful behavior of the protesters attacking the Olympic Torch. Since then, the discussion has been about human rights in China, Hong Kong and Tibet. I feel that Kalasends comments are valid here, and should be included in the discussion. You seem to want to steer the discussions to suit your own preference, dismissing others opinions and arguments as not relevant when it suits you.

So what? Isn't that what a discussion forum is about, or was it your wish to start a thread in which people just agreed that the protestors' behaviour was disgraceful, without any mention of the issues surrounding the protests?

[maxu05]

Every country has seen protests at one time or another, and they are dealt with accordingly. When protesters burn cars, smash shop windows and riot, what do you expect to happen ? In most countries, the police will move in and arrest the trouble makers. There are two sides to everything, though in this case, Chinese are being blamed for everything. You cannot tell me that these protests were not orchestrated to coincide with China's staging of the Olympics, though they claim it is the 59th anniversary of China's takeover of Tibet that has sparked it. I would think that the 60th anniversary would be a time when Tibetans might protest, but 59th ? I agree that the Tibetans should protest for autonomy, but sabotaging the torch relay in the manner that they have is not acceptable IMO. Perhaps you know a little more about Hong Kong than I do, but, most Chinese flock there to make more money these days, not to escape the so called Evil Chinese Empire. The amount of Mainland Chinese that flock to Macau for the weekend to gamble can show you that.

[BDunnell]

Every country has seen protests at one time or another, and they are dealt with accordingly. When protesters burn cars, smash shop windows and riot, what do you expect to happen ? In most countries, the police will move in and arrest the trouble makers. There are two sides to everything, though in this case, Chinese are being blamed for everything. You cannot tell me that these protests were not orchestrated to coincide with China's staging of the Olympics, though they claim it is the 59th anniversary of China's takeover of Tibet that has sparked it.

Of course they are timed to coincide with the Olympic torch procession! If you want to get maximum coverage for the issue about which you are protesting, you don't just hold it at any old time. I would have thought this was obvious.

Also, I would be interested to read your assessment of how the Chinese authorities clamp down on protests and dissent as opposed to the UK authorities. How many dissidents do we jail in the UK? Ought we to abandon our free press?

[Azumanga Davo]

Well, I'm just going to tune in and watch the bodyguard thugs go against the day trippers coach party, live in Canberra tomorrow. Might make Play of the Day on Sports Tonight...

[airshifter]

So what? Isn't that what a discussion forum is about, or was it your wish to start a thread in which people just agreed that the protestors' behaviour was disgraceful, without any mention of the issues surrounding the protests?

I agree that some diversion from the base topic is to be expected, but not so broad that every evil or wrongdoing of the country in question should be taken as fact, especially when people living in that country state otherwise.

You can find injustices in virtually every country on the globe, especially if dealing with past actions.


I have no problem with peaceful protests that any person feels valid as reason to protest. But I dislike that they use the Olympics as a means to further their views. These same people could protest at embassies around the globe and get just as much exposure.

[Daniel]

I have no problem with peaceful protests that any person feels valid as reason to protest. But I dislike that they use the Olympics as a means to further their views. These same people could protest at embassies around the globe and get just as much exposure.

They've been doing that for ages. No one gave a ****.

[BDunnell]

I have no problem with peaceful protests that any person feels valid as reason to protest. But I dislike that they use the Olympics as a means to further their views.

Why? As I said earlier, the IOC has done enough to tarnish the Olympic ideals by itself, without anyone else assisting it.



These same people could protest at embassies around the globe and get just as much exposure.

No they wouldn't. As Daniel says, there have been human rights protests about China for years. I think there's a bit of naivety about news values here.

[Valve Bounce]

The event went without any major confrontations. It was interesting that a group of Chinese witnessed the burning of the Chinese Communist Party flag (Not the flag of China) with much interest but with virtually no emotion.
My take on that is while the Chinese love their country, they don't have the same feelings for the Chinese Communist Party.

The guy who lit the flag was arrested.

[Camelopard]

...., while they can also learn from Timor Leste that independence may lead into internal chaos after deciding to get separated from their former landlady.

If Indonesia would leave East Timor alone and not be stirring up trouble then it would be best for all. But like a spoilt brat they (Indonesia) don't like being told what to do.

[Camelopard]

I'm not in Canberra at the moment, can not say that I am really sorry not to miss scenes like this:

Alastair Paterson says he and his seven-year-old daughter were standing on Limestone Avenue next to a small group which included a woman with a homemade banner saying 'Free Tibet'.
He says as the torch passed by a gang of people with Chinese flags and sticks ran past.
"One bloke lined me up and kicked me and as I turned around he ran away," he said.
"I took a step towards him and three or four others said 'Come on, Come on'. They wanted to fight me.
"The woman's husband got hit across the head with a stick. The woman got jostled. The banner got torn down and they basically ran off."

"We walked a bit further down. There was a man there with two young boys about three and four years old with a small little flag saying 'Free Tibet.'
"They got jostled, his flag got torn off by this, basically the same gang running through."
One caller to ABC Radio in Canberra complained that pro-Chinese demonstrators have been overly aggressive in Commonwealth Park, where the torch relay finished.
"They're shouting slogans, we're scared, we have to leave because we're scared," one caller said.
"We can't go into a crowd like that with our grandchildren.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/24/2226324.htm

If the pro china thugs can do this in Canberra I would hate to be a Tibetan protester in Lhasa!!!

Also reported is that China has barred foreigners from Tibet for the Everest part of the route.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/24/2226786.htm?section=justin

Shame China, Shame................

[Daniel]

I'm not in Canberra at the moment, can not say that I am really sorry not to miss scenes like this:

Alastair Paterson says he and his seven-year-old daughter were standing on Limestone Avenue next to a small group which included a woman with a homemade banner saying 'Free Tibet'.
He says as the torch passed by a gang of people with Chinese flags and sticks ran past.
"One bloke lined me up and kicked me and as I turned around he ran away," he said.
"I took a step towards him and three or four others said 'Come on, Come on'. They wanted to fight me.
"The woman's husband got hit across the head with a stick. The woman got jostled. The banner got torn down and they basically ran off."

"We walked a bit further down. There was a man there with two young boys about three and four years old with a small little flag saying 'Free Tibet.'
"They got jostled, his flag got torn off by this, basically the same gang running through."
One caller to ABC Radio in Canberra complained that pro-Chinese demonstrators have been overly aggressive in Commonwealth Park, where the torch relay finished.
"They're shouting slogans, we're scared, we have to leave because we're scared," one caller said.
"We can't go into a crowd like that with our grandchildren.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/24/2226324.htm

If the pro china thugs can do this in Canberra I would hate to be a Tibetan protester in Lhasa!!!

Also reported is that China has barred foreigners from Tibet for the Everest part of the route.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/24/2226786.htm?section=justin

Shame China, Shame................
You lie!

These things never happened! Never! Never you hear! The Chinese government doesn't sanction violence against people who speak out against it. It simply can't have happened.

It's such a pity the Australian government didn't coach in a coachloads of bogans and perhaps some Lebanese youths. I'm sure they would have dealt with these jokers appropriately ;) They would have realised that they shouldn't fight rather than fighting among themselves.

[BDunnell]

Well, I was delighted to see yesterday that part of the torch relay passed off without incident, with joyous crowds lining the route and celebrating the Olympics as the torch made its glorious way through a country that is a proud member of the Olympic movement.

In case you didn't see it, this country was that great bastion of freedom, North Korea.

[Azumanga Davo]

You lie!

These things never happened! Never! Never you hear! The Chinese government doesn't sanction violence against people who speak out against it. It simply can't have happened.

It's such a pity the Australian government didn't coach in a coachloads of bogans and perhaps some Lebanese youths. I'm sure they would have dealt with these jokers appropriately ;) They would have realised that they shouldn't fight rather than fighting among themselves.

A good traditional Aussie biffo. That would make a good Olympic event too. Kills two birds with one stone.