What a showing from some of the converts!

[millencolin]

i know there is probably a thread about this already, but cause I'm so stunned by this i thought it deserved a seperate thread.

I'm as big of a Will Power fan as they come, i've been following his career way back since his days racing in lower open wheel categories here in Aust, I know how fast he is... But even I am stunned at the fact that he is on the front row on the grid for tomoro's race!

I knew the best chance for Champ car success would be at a road/street circuit, but i would have thought it would have to wait until at least after the indy500. But to have HALF of the top ten owned by ChampCar boys is just beyond anything i could have imagined. Congrats to all of them for proving me wrong!

Having Will and RyanBriscoe in the top 5 will make the effort of getting up at 4:30am after watching the f1 that will end at probably 12:30 will be worth it :p :

[CARTDM15]

The Champcar drives are very talented.Talent didn't hold this series back.I'm not suprise by their showing.Its just shows that oval racing is all about the car.No matter your driving talent if your car ain't right on oval there is nothing you can do.Hopeful in the future the series will faze out some of these ovals.And be a great racing series.

I like Will Power too.He seems so laid back until he gets in the car.A wonderful talent.I hope he brings it home tomorrow

[jarrambide]

The Champcar drives are very talented.Talent didn't hold this series back.I'm not suprise by their showing.Its just shows that oval racing is all about the car.No matter your driving talent if your car ain't right on oval there is nothing you can do.Hopeful in the future the series will faze out some of these ovals.And be a great racing series.

I like Will Power too.He seems so laid back until he gets in the car.A wonderful talent.I hope he brings it home tomorrow
I don´t like ovals, but it is ridiculous to think you can have a good race with a bad car in a course.

In ovals and in circuits it is all about the car first and then it is about the drivers, you need a good car in both to have a real chance (that´s why is about a good car first), without the car it doesn´t matter what kind of driver you have, winning the race is not an option (with the exception of a lot of luck with pitting in a different order, everyone else crash, the race ends prematurely), when different teams have more or less equal cars then the teams with the best drivers will have the most wins.

Difference here is that exCC teams have 2 years of only working in course setups, they do good course setups but stink at ovals, returning IRL teams have been doing more ovals than course setups, hence they probably feel more comfortable with oval setups than course setups (they still have the advantage of knowing the car).

Trying to read something out of qualifying is useless since CC is no more, the teams you and I are calling exCC or converts are in reality Indy Car teams, and the drivers are Indy Car drivers, today they are IC drivers and teams.

[F1boat]

I am not too surprised. Sure, I thought that Penske, Ganassi and AGR will have bigger advantage, but we know that Power and Wilson are very good drivers and that their teams are very good, experts in street courses and proven winners in a series, which is not that different to Indy Car. Now I think that Justin Wilson may just win the race :)

[ozrevhead]

Ryan was seriously unlucky in the first race - running in 5th before being unintentionally taken out

I think he can finish top 5 in the Championship if he keeps it up

[wedge]

Wilson and NHL - no surprises there but Power and KV surprised me a bit. Team and driver did a great job.

Though I still think Will is the successor to PT - when he's good he's great, when he's bad he's bad!

[Wilf]

Hopeful in the future the series will faze out some of these ovals.And be a great racing series.


I thought we just went through a decade long effort of trying to understand what the market wants.

[ShiftingGears]

I thought we just went through a decade long effort of trying to understand what the market wants.

Yeah...one series!

[garyshell]

I thought we just went through a decade long effort of trying to understand what the market wants.

I don't think we saw what the "market" wanted. We saw what Madison Ave. wanted. This was never about the fans, this was always about the sponsors. They wanted the Indy 500, plain and simple. It was always the 600-800 lb gorilla in the room. But I guess a case could be made that Madison Ave. WAS the market.

Gary

[-Helix-]

The Champcar drives are very talented.Talent didn't hold this series back.I'm not suprise by their showing.Its just shows that oval racing is all about the car.No matter your driving talent if your car ain't right on oval there is nothing you can do.Hopeful in the future the series will faze out some of these ovals.And be a great racing series.

I like Will Power too.He seems so laid back until he gets in the car.A wonderful talent.I hope he brings it home tomorrow

Actually I'm pretty sure this proves the exact opposite of your point. What was the reason all the former Champ Car teams did so poorly at Homestead? The teams can obviously prepare a car to good standards and it's a spec series so they're all the same as proven in St. Pete

So what was the difference on the oval? Obviously the driver. Thus, drivers DO matter in an oval race. If it was just the cars, why wasn't N/H/L and Conquest up at the front at Homestead?

[anthonyvop]

Actually I'm pretty sure this proves the exact opposite of your point. What was the reason all the former Champ Car teams did so poorly at Homestead? The teams can obviously prepare a car to good standards and it's a spec series so they're all the same as proven in St. Pete

So what was the difference on the oval? Obviously the driver. Thus, drivers DO matter in an oval race. If it was just the cars, why wasn't N/H/L and Conquest up at the front at Homestead?
IF anything oval racing depends much more on the car than the driver. Especially when they never lift their foot off the accelerator as they do at Homestead.

Road racing is a much better test of a driver's skill. And road racing in the Rain is the epitome of that test.

[garyshell]

IF anything oval racing depends much more on the car than the driver. Especially when they never lift their foot off the accelerator as they do at Homestead.

Road racing is a much better test of a driver's skill. And road racing in the Rain is the epitome of that test.

Spot on with one MINOR exception. They did lift at Homestead. The top guys in lap times had trimmed out their downforce to the point that they were lifting. It can be clearly heard on some of Dixon's laps on the TV coverage.

But I have no argument with everything else you said. Helix may be right that the cars are spec, but that sure as hell doesn't mean the setups are spec. Far from it. A proper setup is CRUCIAL to an oval race.

While it my be possible to manhandle an ill setup car on an oval, it is much more likely that a driver can manhandle an equally ill setup car on a roadcourse.

Gary

[xtlm]

IF anything oval racing depends much more on the car than the driver. Especially when they never lift their foot off the accelerator as they do at Homestead.

Road racing is a much better test of a driver's skill. And road racing in the Rain is the epitome of that test.


No!

Road racing and Oval racing are two completely different racing skill types.
Some drivers are better at one type than the other.


Sam Hornish never was great on the road courses, and there have been racers (like Dario (till last year...)first one that came to mind...) that were never good on ovals.

for example, say you give 2 drivers identical cars and setups and make them race 10 races against each other. The end result is one guy wins 5 on ovals and the other guy wins the 5 road course races. Who is to say is better?

[-Helix-]

IF anything oval racing depends much more on the car than the driver. Especially when they never lift their foot off the accelerator as they do at Homestead.

Road racing is a much better test of a driver's skill. And road racing in the Rain is the epitome of that test.

I don't disagree with that last statement but oval racing has a skill set to its own. The car doesn't navigate traffic at 220 mph, the driver does. There were plenty of great moves at Homestead that were results of good DRIVING, not good cars.

And like already said they DO lift at Homestead.

[Rudy Tamasz]

If you can drive, you can drive. That's the answer.

[Spiderman]

No!

Road racing and Oval racing are two completely different racing skill types.
Some drivers are better at one type than the other.


Sam Hornish never was great on the road courses, and there have been racers (like Dario (till last year...)first one that came to mind...) that were never good on ovals.

for example, say you give 2 drivers identical cars and setups and make them race 10 races against each other. The end result is one guy wins 5 on ovals and the other guy wins the 5 road course races. Who is to say is better?

I believe, it's easier for a good road racer to learn ovals than fpr a very good oval racer to learning road racing.
It's because oval racing from the drivers side is a mental thing. it's a question of courage and the will to risk something.
Road racing is more technically, you have to learn the corners, find the rind points to brake and to accelarate, you have to shift at the right time.
And that's a lot more difficult to learn.
I don't doubt, that when the former cc-teams worked out the set-up for ovals, their drivers will be amoung the best on this type of racing. The past showed, the road racers never needed so much time ton learn ovals, in the other direction, it was a lot more difficult...

[keysersoze]

xtlm is right on this. Oval racing requires a different technical understanding as well as a different driving approach. And while I agree that a road racer can become proficient on ovals more readily than an oval specialist can become a successful road racer, it still requires enormous talent, bravado, and experience to race successfully on ovals.

If it wasn't so, then Juan Montoya and Robby Gordon wouldn't be having just mediocre results; moreover, Dario Franchitti, Patrick Carpentier and, most glaring of all, A. J. Allmendinger, wouldn't be struggling like they are.

[BenRoethig]

I believe, it's easier for a good road racer to learn ovals than fpr a very good oval racer to learning road racing.
It's because oval racing from the drivers side is a mental thing. it's a question of courage and the will to risk something.
Road racing is more technically, you have to learn the corners, find the rind points to brake and to accelarate, you have to shift at the right time.
And that's a lot more difficult to learn.
I don't doubt, that when the former cc-teams worked out the set-up for ovals, their drivers will be amoung the best on this type of racing. The past showed, the road racers never needed so much time ton learn ovals, in the other direction, it was a lot more difficult...

Its actually the opposite. Drivers who have only raced on ovals tend to get up to speed much faster on road courses than road course drivers get up to speed on ovals. It takes a completely different approach to racing.

[BenRoethig]

The Champcar drives are very talented.Talent didn't hold this series back.I'm not suprise by their showing.Its just shows that oval racing is all about the car.No matter your driving talent if your car ain't right on oval there is nothing you can do.Hopeful in the future the series will faze out some of these ovals.And be a great racing series.

I like Will Power too.He seems so laid back until he gets in the car.A wonderful talent.I hope he brings it home tomorrow

You'd also faze out things like fans, sponsors, and money. I know the hard core champ car guys want it, but most North American open wheel fans will not tune in for just another formula series. We're just starting to get things back in order, why screw it up?

[jarrambide]

Its actually the opposite. Drivers who have only raced on ovals tend to get up to speed much faster on road courses than road course drivers get up to speed on ovals.

I would love to see you post real life example of this, ovals specialists who got up to speed real fast and road courses specialist who struggled, but I would also love to see the members that posted the opposite opinion to also post some real life examples, it will still be subjective, but a lot less subjective than what we are doing right now.

[Spiderman]

I would love to see you post real life example of this, ovals specialists who got up to speed real fast and road courses specialist who struggled, but I would also love to see the members that posted the opposite opinion to also post some real life examples, it will still be subjective, but a lot less subjective than what we are doing right now.
I'll give you some for my opinion:
Nigel Mansell (crashed his first, finished third in his second, won his 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th oval race)
Juan Montoya (won his third)
Sebastien Bourdais (won his first oval race)
Scott Dixon won his third race in CART - it was his first or second on an oval
Alex Zanardi (led his second and lost it very unlucky)
Gil deFerran, Castroneves all had road race background, Jacques Villeneuve and Christian Fittipaldi, whose became second in their first Indy500-starts.

The other way around, look at the IRL road-races. With one exeption, they all were won by drivers with CART- or CCWS-background. The exeption was Marco, who had his background in KARTs and not in SprintCars!
There are examples vor oval drivers who were very succesful on road courses, like AJ Foyt and Mario Andretti, but hey, they probably were within the best 10 drivers of the 20th century!

So, if road racers can work out a good setup for ovals they will be competetive, in open wheel cars at least. NASCAR is different story...

[bblocker68]

I'll give you some for my opinion:
Nigel Mansell (crashed his first, finished third in his second, won his 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th oval race)
Juan Montoya (won his third)
Sebastien Bourdais (won his first oval race)
Scott Dixon won his third race in CART - it was his first or second on an oval
Alex Zanardi (led his second and lost it very unlucky)
Gil deFerran, Castroneves all had road race background, Jacques Villeneuve and Christian Fittipaldi, whose became second in their first Indy500-starts.

The other way around, look at the IRL road-races. With one exeption, they all were won by drivers with CART- or CCWS-background. The exeption was Marco, who had his background in KARTs and not in SprintCars!
There are examples vor oval drivers who were very succesful on road courses, like AJ Foyt and Mario Andretti, but hey, they probably were within the best 10 drivers of the 20th century!

So, if road racers can work out a good setup for ovals they will be competetive, in open wheel cars at least. NASCAR is different story...

+1

As for CC drivers not having enough skill to be competitive on the ovals is a crock. You wait and see. The ENGINEERS will figure it out one day and they will be competitive. There was a glaring difference on speeds at Homestead and it was 90% the car. Servia can go oval racing and he got passed like he was standing still.

Anyway, give it a few more races. I'm sure people are bookmarking this thread already.

Oh yeah, Graham is afraid of the ovals. I'm sure he'd never win in IndyCar either, MUHUHUHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!

[weeflyonthewall]

I don´t like ovals, but it is ridiculous to think you can have a good race with a bad car in a course.

In ovals and in circuits it is all about the car first and then it is about the drivers, you need a good car in both to have a real chance (that´s why is about a good car first), without the car it doesn´t matter what kind of driver you have, winning the race is not an option (with the exception of a lot of luck with pitting in a different order, everyone else crash, the race ends prematurely), when different teams have more or less equal cars then the teams with the best drivers will have the most wins.

Difference here is that exCC teams have 2 years of only working in course setups, they do good course setups but stink at ovals, returning IRL teams have been doing more ovals than course setups, hence they probably feel more comfortable with oval setups than course setups (they still have the advantage of knowing the car).


Do you really believe this? The top teams in the IRL have decades of non-oval set-up experience. Where did AGR, Rahal, TCGR and Penske come from?

[Lousada]

I would love to see you post real life example of this, ovals specialists who got up to speed real fast and road courses specialist who struggled, but I would also love to see the members that posted the opposite opinion to also post some real life examples, it will still be subjective, but a lot less subjective than what we are doing right now.

Guys like Jeff Gordon, Jimmy Johnson and Tony Stewart perform pretty well when they drive on roadcourses I think.
With this argument it often spins in a way comparing the Indycar oval drivers with the Indycar roadracers. This is unfair because all the top oval drivers are in Nascar, while there are worldclass roadracers in Indycar.

[jarrambide]

Do you really believe this? The top teams in the IRL have decades of non-oval set-up experience. Where did AGR, Rahal, TCGR and Penske come from?
Reread my post, I never said they don´t have experience, what I´m saying is that the current team members of the teams you are mentioning above have been doing a lot more oval setups than course setups in the last years, while the current team members of exCC teams have been only (emphasis on the word only) doing course setups in the last couple of years.

Imagine you are Fernando Alonso and for the sake of my argument lets imagine he goes to a series that has 15 oval races and 3 course races per season for 4 seasons and then he goes back to F1. Yes, he is a great driver, yes, he has course driving experience, yes, he continued to race a few courses every year, but a in comparison with F1 drivers he would have a disadvantage.

Having said that, I do believe exCC teams are in a bigger disadvantage during oval races than IRL teams during course races, but the disadvantage is there for everyone.

[Spiderman]

Guys like Jeff Gordon, Jimmy Johnson and Tony Stewart perform pretty well when they drive on roadcourses I think.
With this argument it often spins in a way comparing the Indycar oval drivers with the Indycar roadracers. This is unfair because all the top oval drivers are in Nascar, while there are worldclass roadracers in Indycar.
You told so: The top OVAL racers are in NASCAR. If Gordon, Johnson and Stewart win road races in NASCAR, they do it against oval specialist! They don't win against road racers. NASCAR doesn't have road race specialist in one of it's top teams!

I have another example for you: Sebastien Bourdais won in his second IROC race against NASCAR stars in an stockcar on an oval!

[CARTDM15]

I thought we just went through a decade long effort of trying to understand what the market wants.
I know as of right now the market doesn't want open wheel racing.The tv numbers prove that.Whether oval or road/street course

[CARTDM15]

I don´t like ovals, but it is ridiculous to think you can have a good race with a bad car in a course.

In ovals and in circuits it is all about the car first and then it is about the drivers, you need a good car in both to have a real chance (that´s why is about a good car first), without the car it doesn´t matter what kind of driver you have,.

I have seen AL Unser JR & Paul Tracy win races with broken front wings.That can not be done on an oval.Your car don't have to be perfect to win on a road/street course but it has to be on an oval.I have seen plenty of times top drivers (legends) get lapped on an oval over and over again and it wasn't because of their drivng skills.They guessed wrong on the set up or they had no clue how to prepare the car.Thats were the ex Champcar teams are at right now

[jarrambide]

I have seen AL Unser JR & Paul Tracy win races with broken front wings.That can not be done on an oval.Your car don't have to be perfect to win on a road/street course but it has to be on an oval.I have seen plenty of times top drivers (legends) get lapped on an oval over and over again and it wasn't because of their drivng skills.They guessed wrong on the set up or they had no clue how to prepare the car.Thats were the ex Champcar teams are at right now

And I just saw Fernando Alonso finish in 10th place and Sebastien Bourdais finish in 15th place. Is Alonso not a good driver?, after all, supposedly on road courses it is not about the car first, it is about the driver, but if it wasn´t the car when he won those 2 championships, why is he struggling so much now?, did he lose his skills?. What about Bourdais?, if he was winning championship, after championship, after championship against those exCC now in the IndyCar series, why is he having troubles with Toro Rosso, he forgot to drive?, or the other 16 drivers in CC grid for the last 5 years are amateurish at best?

I also remember watching PT last year finishing 5th place in Mexico city, 9th place in Australia (I will not count the Netherlands because he had mechanical problems), 10th place in Belgium, 12th place in Elkhart Race, 11th place in San Jose and 5th place in Edmonton with healthy cars(I´m not gonna post his result in every race in 2007, but the guy had only 2 podiums, his 1st place in Cleveland and his 3rd place in Las Vegas, after Cleveland he had troubles even getting a top 5).). You are trying to tell me that hes results in 2007 happened becasue we had one of the most strong grids in CC history?, with only 17 drivers? did PT forgot to drive?, it was the car, PT almost never had a competitive car last year, drivers are important, but they can´t do miracles, no competitive car, no results, in oval or in road courses.

I understand how setup is more important in ovals, but in a road course is also the first thing you need to have a successful race, bad car, bad race, even if you have a previous champion.

I remember PT winning with a broken front wing, I also remember he was already in front because his good setup let him qualify in a good place and his good setup let him move to first place, if he had to qualify and race the whole race with the broken wing I guarantee you he would have finished way back.

[CARTDM15]

And I just saw Fernando Alonso finish in 10th place and Sebastien Bourdais finish in 15th place. Is Alonso not a good driver?, after all, supposedly on road courses it is not about the car first, it is about the driver, but if it wasn´t the car when he won those 2 championships, why is he struggling so much now?, did he lose his skills?. What about Bourdais?, if he was winning championship, after championship, after championship against those exCC now in the IndyCar series, why is he having troubles with Toro Rosso, he forgot to drive?, or the other 16 drivers in CC grid for the last 5 years are amateurish at best?

I also remember watching PT last year finishing 5th place in Mexico city, 9th place in Australia (I will not count the Netherlands because he had mechanical problems), 10th place in Belgium, 12th place in Elkhart Race, 11th place in San Jose and 5th place in Edmonton with healthy cars(I´m not gonna post his result in every race in 2007, but the guy had only 2 podiums, his 1st place in Cleveland and his 3rd place in Las Vegas, after Cleveland he had troubles even getting a top 5).). You are trying to tell me that hes results in 2007 happened becasue we had one of the most strong grids in CC history?, with only 17 drivers? did PT forgot to drive?, it was the car, PT almost never had a competitive car last year, drivers are important, but they can´t do miracles, no competitive car, no results, in oval or in road courses.

I understand how setup is more important in ovals, but in a road course is also the first thing you need to have a successful race, bad car, bad race, even if you have a previous champion.

I remember PT winning with a broken front wing, I also remember he was already in front because his good setup let him qualify in a good place and his good setup let him move to first place, if he had to qualify and race the whole race with the broken wing I guarantee you he would have finished way back.
You can't compare F1 & Indy.Everybody knows the car makes a different in F1.
You can put any driver in the series in a AG,Penkse,Ganassi car and they will be competive on a oval in a short period of time.You put any quality driver in any car in the series on a road course and they will be competive.