Please Don't Change Long Beach In 2009!!

[pits4me]

The hurried unification, splerger or almalgamation of North American open wheel racing is no reason to ignore what is strategically best for business in ICS/OW's future.

As the recent Sebring testing concluded and current Homestead testing began, the experienced Panoz DP01 drivers have made no secret of just how antiquated and difficult the current ICS formula is to drive from their perspective, and how difficult it would be to drive one of those beasts on the streets of Long Beach or Toronto.

To think there are influencial decision makers who are actually considering a track reconfiguration in 2009 to accommodate the more difficult handling IRL Dallara's is tragic. They may have got away with it in St. Pete's but that's a different set of circumstances. Instead of a mickey mouse track 'fix' why not fix the root cause and put a car on the track in 2009 we can all enjoy to watch.

[Hoop-98]

The hurried unification, splerger or almalgamation of North American open wheel racing is no reason to ignore what is strategically best for business in ICS/OW's future.

As the recent Sebring testing concluded and current Homestead testing began, the experienced Panoz DP01 drivers have made no secret of just how antiquated and difficult the current ICS formula is to drive from their perspective, and how difficult it would be to drive one of those beasts on the streets of Long Beach or Toronto.

To think there are influencial decision makers who are actually considering a track reconfiguration in 2009 to accommodate the more difficult handling IRL Dallara's is tragic. They may have got away with it in St. Pete's but that's a different set of circumstances. Instead of a mickey mouse track 'fix' why not fix the root cause and put a car on the track in 2009 we can all enjoy to watch.

Sources?

[jimispeed]

The hurried unification, splerger or almalgamation of North American open wheel racing is no reason to ignore what is strategically best for business in ICS/OW's future.

As the recent Sebring testing concluded and current Homestead testing began, the experienced Panoz DP01 drivers have made no secret of just how antiquated and difficult the current ICS formula is to drive from their perspective, and how difficult it would be to drive one of those beasts on the streets of Long Beach or Toronto.

To think there are influencial decision makers who are actually considering a track reconfiguration in 2009 to accommodate the more difficult handling IRL Dallara's is tragic. They may have got away with it in St. Pete's but that's a different set of circumstances. Instead of a mickey mouse track 'fix' why not fix the root cause and put a car on the track in 2009 we can all enjoy to watch.


If this is true what you say, then I would agree.

Racecars shouldn't have to be dogs. Especially when there are proven cars out there that still have potential to be met!!

[Hoop-98]

Strangely enuf, the DP01 (qualifying) was slower at LB than the 2006 Lola, or strangely enough the 2000 Lola.

As far as ST Pete, check the segment times for the last CC and the first IRL, throw out the reconfigured part and compare all the other segments.

The Dallara was very close in the slower segments, lost ground on the faster ones.

Again, where are these antiquated and difficult to drive comments made please?

rh

[ShiftingGears]

The hurried unification, splerger or almalgamation of North American open wheel racing is no reason to ignore what is strategically best for business in ICS/OW's future.

As the recent Sebring testing concluded and current Homestead testing began, the experienced Panoz DP01 drivers have made no secret of just how antiquated and difficult the current ICS formula is to drive from their perspective, and how difficult it would be to drive one of those beasts on the streets of Long Beach or Toronto.

To think there are influencial decision makers who are actually considering a track reconfiguration in 2009 to accommodate the more difficult handling IRL Dallara's is tragic. They may have got away with it in St. Pete's but that's a different set of circumstances. Instead of a mickey mouse track 'fix' why not fix the root cause and put a car on the track in 2009 we can all enjoy to watch.

What kind of track reconfiguration, exactly?

[gofastandwynn]

What kind of track reconfiguration, exactly?

They tightened up turn 10, and the fast esses that follow it.

[infoxicated]

If the Dallara can handle Detroit and St Pete's then this leaves me with only one conclusion;

The original poster is nothing more than a Champsturbator, fixated on a car that has been consigned to the scrap heap, and should stop talking out of his arse.

[garyshell]

If the Dallara can handle Detroit and St Pete's then this leaves me with only one conclusion;

The original poster is nothing more than a Champsturbator, fixated on a car that has been consigned to the scrap heap, and should stop talking out of his arse.


Not really. I can vouch for pits4me. His info is always quite reliable. Wasn't the St. Pete track changed a bit when the ICS went there vs. how it was for OWRS? I think what is being discussed is a similar set of changes for LB.

Personally I don't have any beef with modifying the circuit as long as it improves the racing and doesn't destroy spectator sight lines.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Three things. No one has actually posted a link saying the track is going to change. Two. Even if they were going to make a change or two no one has said why it would be changed, which leads me to three, CC/CCWS often made little tweaks to their track configurations from year to year in an attempt to improve the on track product. No one questioned them whether it was because the cars couldn't handle it.

A BS thread w/no substance.

[Hoop-98]

The approach to one turn was changed, I did a comparison a few years back and made up common splits for CC and IRL.

The change was worth a couple hundreths maybe.

rh

[Hoop-98]

Here judge for yourself:

http://i26.tinypic.com/2kprme.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/2qiz6lg.gif

rh

[garyshell]

Here judge for yourself:



rh

OK Hoop, I'll bite what IS the difference? I don't see one. But then again my eyes are not what they used to be.

Gary

[Lousada]

Turn 10 is slightly sharper, it has that little right twist now.

[pits4me]

Original post has been deleted

You don't know me from a bar of soap and I'd like to keep it that way. Apology accepted.

Very few tracks duplicate the show Long Beach provides. Its been that way since I started attending the F5000 and F-1 as a guest of the promoter. If you've never been to any of these races then I completely understand your take on the whole situation. For those of us that have been going to Long Beach for over 30 years, we have seen many changes. Some for the good and some not.


Strangely enuf, the DP01 (qualifying) was slower at LB than the 2006 Lola, or strangely enough the 2000 Lola.

As far as ST Pete, check the segment times for the last CC and the first IRL, throw out the reconfigured part and compare all the other segments.

The Dallara was very close in the slower segments, lost ground on the faster ones.

Again, where are these antiquated and difficult to drive comments made please?

rh

Its not about sector splits. Its about acceleration, the sound, the speed, the spectacle. That's why Long Beach is the marquee racing event on the west coast and Toyota has supported it all these years.

My sources are people I trust who have been a part of this scene longer than a good many posters in this forum have been out of nappies. There are drivers that have actual experience on the streets of Long Beach and now driving the ICS cars. When the subject of putting those cars on Long Beach comes up their comments tend to move very quickly through the ranks of racing as you well know. Lets see what Morales and Krikorian dig up for the LBPT when they start chasing lead in stories from St. Pete's.

On the speculated changes - what makes Long Beach's Turn 5 ideal for Dallara's Hoop? What exactly will they have to do to turns 10 and 11 to get the cars roaring down Shoreline quickly?

Will they have to redo the circuit between turn 9 and 11 and go the backside of the ALMS paddock. I hope not. The hairpin has been a feature of Long Beach for decades. I would personally hate to see that famous turn die in the history books. I can still remember when James Hunt and Niki Lauda got into it there.

What about making Turn 1 more of a sweeping entry to accommodate rolling starts? There's always been trouble in that spot. How nimble are the Dallara's in point-and-shoot over-the-crown circumstances? Not very good if I take another look at Wheldon's footage from St.Pete's.

This will be a non-issue this year because of the standing starts. I don't think TG is going to adopt that part of Cotman's safety philosophy just yet, do you?

[nigelred5]

As has been said, the long Beach course has been changed numerous times. Personally, I'd like to see the hairpin become a straight right hander.

[bblocker68]

Well, I can only address this from the perspective of a Sim racer. St. Pete is just as tough to drive as Long Beach, maybe even harder in the tight sections in the midlle of the track.

If the Dallara's can handle it there, they can handle it at Long Beach. I dont see much reason to change the track. Then again, the track changes every 5 years for new construction, so who knows what it will look like in 2009 or 2010??.......

[anthonyvop]

Strangely enuf, the DP01 (qualifying) was slower at LB than the 2006 Lola, or strangely enough the 2000 Lola.


The Panoz was practically just out of the Box at LB last year. By the 1/2 point the Panoz was as fast as the Lola and by the end of the season it was quicker.

In 2000 the Lola was running a lot more HP and had better tires.

[Hoop-98]

OK, let's see, who has experience in both for years and years.

Oriol and Bruno would be about it, although Will Power has driven both. Just wonder when last week you had a chance to discuss this with them?

Nimbleness, as I said, in low speed sections it manages just fine. As far as acceleration, well lets look at the acceleration potential of 3 cars.

Calculated 1/4 ET/MPH

CC 8.22 166
IC 8.53 160
F1 7.20 190
2000 CC 7.74 176,

Notice how much closer the Indy Car is to an 07 Champ Car than that 07 Champ Car is to a 2000, where's that outrage? The drop from 16.5 K to 12.5K changed that sound quite abit too, but seems fine.

While the CC accelerates quicker, it is certainly in the same class of speed, while the F1 is in a class of it's on when it comes to sound and acceleration.

Spectacle, 16 strong cars and 26 total entrants vs 10 and 17? How many people are complaining about the double digit drop in trap speeds since 2000, the Indycar traps, with no track change would be much closer to the current Champ Car than the 07 and 00 Champ Cars.

As far as any given turn, the Dallara is just another car of the same size, weight, and tires. I am not sure why a car that runs Belle Isle and Sp Pete would need to be accomodated by any special mods.



The only technical thing I can think of would be the turning radius?

Turn 5, 55-60 MPH right hander is ideal, beats the heck out of me.

Of course, you allude to much, but say little. Just spell it out if you know, or not, up to you.

rh

[Hoop-98]

The Panoz was practically just out of the Box at LB last year. By the 1/2 point the Panoz was as fast as the Lola and by the end of the season it was quicker.

In 2000 the Lola was running a lot more HP and had better tires.

Yes it did have a lot more power, accellerate much faster, was over 10 MPH faster down the straights, but it definitely did not have better tires.

Simply not true, on unchanged tracks it went back and forth all year. The Panoz with 500 pounds more downforce was much easier to drive flat out through high speed kinks (remember when easy to drive because of high downforce was bad) but suffered on mechanical grip in tighter courses.

Of the unchanged tracks, which weren't many, the Lola was on average just a tick faster, overall it was a push.

If you decide to research it you need to look carefully at changes, both obvious (Houston) and less so, (Surfer's lowered curbs).

I documented this all before on xwagon.

rh

[Hoop-98]

Well, I can only address this from the perspective of a Sim racer. St. Pete is just as tough to drive as Long Beach, maybe even harder in the tight sections in the midlle of the track.

If the Dallara's can handle it there, they can handle it at Long Beach. I dont see much reason to change the track. Then again, the track changes every 5 years for new construction, so who knows what it will look like in 2009 or 2010??.......

bblocker, can you adjust the power on that sim, if so it would be interesting to try at different power levels.

rh

[bblocker68]

Files can be edited to raise horsepower in the engine.ini and the car's .hdv file. I can look it over tonight and try it in the Dallara. We just got a new IRL mod in the last couple of days.

[bblocker68]

Maybe Niles can try it too.

[EagleEye]

The hurried unification, splerger or almalgamation of North American open wheel racing is no reason to ignore what is strategically best for business in ICS/OW's future.

As the recent Sebring testing concluded and current Homestead testing began, the experienced Panoz DP01 drivers have made no secret of just how antiquated and difficult the current ICS formula is to drive from their perspective, and how difficult it would be to drive one of those beasts on the streets of Long Beach or Toronto.

To think there are influencial decision makers who are actually considering a track reconfiguration in 2009 to accommodate the more difficult handling IRL Dallara's is tragic. They may have got away with it in St. Pete's but that's a different set of circumstances. Instead of a mickey mouse track 'fix' why not fix the root cause and put a car on the track in 2009 we can all enjoy to watch.

For the one millionth time:

-Not enough DP01's to go around

-No oval kits built up (wings, undertray, suspension parts)

-No Honda Engine cover built

-No $$ for developing more cars and parts....

-Dallara is not going to be pushed out..........

Take a deep breath, and relax. The Dallara can and will put on a good show. A beauty it's not, but can we please just let it go! We finally have a very full field, and that looks to be even better for 2009 with twenty or so races.

For gosh sakes, if the Champcar fans could put up with lawsuits, canceled races, bad TV coverage, no HD, and huge gaps in the schedule with glee, I would think they would be strong enough to handle a Dallara for a few more years.

One series has been a long time coming, and aside from the issues associated with the timing, 90% of those in the industry are behind it! The teams have worked long and hard to help make this happen, and event with the number of Dallara out there, there are still shortages and some minor issues to overcome.

Why don't we just sit back and enjoy the show, for a change, and let the issues play out. If having one series is going to offer growth, it is possible that we could have multiple chassis/engine combinations in the future.

Behind the scenes, the sponsorship interest is as high as it’s been in some time. Since most major companies already have set marketing budgets for '08, let’s wait until the end of this year to see what teams pick up sponsorship.

[weeflyonthewall]

Were the Dallara and G-Force intended for oval racing?
Didn't Panoz acquire G-Force and the engineering behind it?
How quickly could Elan respond to 32 new DP0's and 25+ update kits for existing chassis? How quickly would Dallara be able to respond to a new chassis design? Or Lola? Swift? 2010 isn't that far off and the 100th anniversary of Indy deserves a new chassis debut. No reason they can't use them on a few street and road races a year earlier is there? Changing track layouts sounds more of a band aid to me.

[!!WALDO!!]

Strangely enuf, the DP01 (qualifying) was slower at LB than the 2006 Lola, or strangely enough the 2000 Lola.

There were 13 Lola's built in 2003 so that was the end of the "new" car run.

The DP01 does not meet the Indy Car rules which run until 12-31-2009.

[weeflyonthewall]

There were 13 Lola's built in 2003 so that was the end of the "new" car run.

The DP01 does not meet the Indy Car rules which run until 12-31-2009.

Is Panoz still an approved supplier to the IRL? Do we know what the DP01 lacks besides the NA rear airbox like the DP09? There are rules and there are RULES! Can it be called a Falcon?

[!!WALDO!!]

Is Panoz still an approved supplier to the IRL? Do we know what the DP01 lacks besides the NA rear airbox like the DP09? There are rules and there are RULES! Can it be called a Falcon?

If Falcon was to build a car yes, this car does not meet the specs. Period.

If you change the rules then you cause chaos and drive tems from the sport. The IRL and the CCWS locked in their rules package for 6 seasons.

[gofastandwynn]

The Panoz was practically just out of the Box at LB last year. By the 1/2 point the Panoz was as fast as the Lola and by the end of the season it was quicker.



And is was even newer at Laguna and yet it set a new track record and was faster than a formula 1 car...allegedly

[!!WALDO!!]

And is was even newer at Laguna and yet it set a new track record and was faster than a formula 1 car...allegedly

Official track records only occur under the clocks of the sanction during a Sanctions approved racing event. Practice is not it.
Also a F-1 car never officially set time at Laguna during a F-1 race's qualifying.

More internet stuff to show the superiority of a car, when this was done hadn't done one thing. A year later it still floats to the surface.

It would have been impressive if it beat the official Lola/Cosworth time but no mention of that.

[BenRoethig]

Is Panoz still an approved supplier to the IRL? Do we know what the DP01 lacks besides the NA rear airbox like the DP09? There are rules and there are RULES! Can it be called a Falcon?

The Panoz G-Force (theoretically) meets the IRL rules with a few updates. The DP01, even if used with the IRL Honda engine, is a completely different package for a different series. The only validity it has is possibly as a base for the 2010 rules package. That's the situation for 2008-09 and it isn't going to change.

[gofastandwynn]

The Panoz G-Force (theoretically) meets the IRL rules with a few updates. The DP01, even if used with the IRL Honda engine, is a completely different package for a different series. The only validity it has is possibly as a base for the 2010 rules package. That's the situation for 2008-09 and it isn't going to change.

Actually the Panoz is only legal at the Indy 500 this year.

[BenRoethig]

Actually the Panoz is only legal at the Indy 500 this year.

But the design could theoretically be modified to make it legal again.

[weeflyonthewall]

But the design could theoretically be modified to make it legal again.

Let's see how Dallara responds to filling the spares pipeline. They must be licking their chops every time they see another tub hit the wall in Homestead. It would be nice if the DP01 could be considered part of the 2009-2010 package. When does that process usually get started?

[BenRoethig]

Maybe a "DP02" derivative, but it is going to need some work especially when it comes the engine compartment. The one thing that is clear is that one chassis maker isn't going to be enough.

[weeflyonthewall]

I wonder if Tony got a good listen to those Turbo's going down Shoreline Drive yesterday? The last thing we need is a track change to make an outdated chassis package look better. Robin Miller nailed it on Speed Report last night. Get the DP01's back for 2009. While their at it, adopt the 2.65 turbo and foster some engine competition.

[!!WALDO!!]

adopt the 2.65 turbo and foster some engine competition.

From whom? If they were there they could have stepped up at any time.

(NO REFERENCE TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD or NOT YET BORN.)

[Ironcurtainantihero]

The hurried unification, splerger or almalgamation of North American open wheel racing is no reason to ignore what is strategically best for business in ICS/OW's future.

As the recent Sebring testing concluded and current Homestead testing began, the experienced Panoz DP01 drivers have made no secret of just how antiquated and difficult the current ICS formula is to drive from their perspective, and how difficult it would be to drive one of those beasts on the streets of Long Beach or Toronto.

To think there are influencial decision makers who are actually considering a track reconfiguration in 2009 to accommodate the more difficult handling IRL Dallara's is tragic. They may have got away with it in St. Pete's but that's a different set of circumstances. Instead of a mickey mouse track 'fix' why not fix the root cause and put a car on the track in 2009 we can all enjoy to watch.

Tracks are changed many times-including Long Beach. The track has changed since the Formula One days. Bottom line, like most CCWS fans, you just don't like anything involving the IRL and you believe that you are entitled to something. Which you're not.

We have one series now. Accept and deal with it, or go away. If you must stay, please be productive and constructive as opposed to simply whining and complaining. That achieves nothing.

I was a Champ Car fan but I am a racing fan even more. I support the IRL. If you can't, fine, but coming here and complaining doesn't achieve any result.

[Ironcurtainantihero]

For the one millionth time:

-Not enough DP01's to go around

-No oval kits built up (wings, undertray, suspension parts)

-No Honda Engine cover built

-No $$ for developing more cars and parts....

-Dallara is not going to be pushed out..........

Take a deep breath, and relax. The Dallara can and will put on a good show. A beauty it's not, but can we please just let it go! We finally have a very full field, and that looks to be even better for 2009 with twenty or so races.

For gosh sakes, if the Champcar fans could put up with lawsuits, canceled races, bad TV coverage, no HD, and huge gaps in the schedule with glee, I would think they would be strong enough to handle a Dallara for a few more years.

One series has been a long time coming, and aside from the issues associated with the timing, 90% of those in the industry are behind it! The teams have worked long and hard to help make this happen, and event with the number of Dallara out there, there are still shortages and some minor issues to overcome.

Why don't we just sit back and enjoy the show, for a change, and let the issues play out. If having one series is going to offer growth, it is possible that we could have multiple chassis/engine combinations in the future.

Behind the scenes, the sponsorship interest is as high as it’s been in some time. Since most major companies already have set marketing budgets for '08, let’s wait until the end of this year to see what teams pick up sponsorship.

Thank you. Finally, an adult here. I was starting to wonder considering how many whining children there have been here about EVERYTHING if there were adults on this forum. Thank you for restoring my faith.

[pits4me]

We're talking a year or two away for a new chassis. That plan needs to get in motion immediately.

Allows plenty of time to get the obstacles out of the way for an oval ready DP01. And who says they'll stay with an air box chassis if they opt to keep with a green turbo. Panoz already designed an airbox for the Superleague version.

[!!WALDO!!]

Plenty of time to get the obstacles out of the way for an oval ready DP01.

Tells us why the DP01 is far superior to the ICS package. It appears you may have a better tech knowledge. So break down the cars. Remember though the Dallara/Panoz ICS car is $375,000 new and the DP01 is $325,000.
So take it from there.

(NO REFERENCE TO ANY POSTER, LIVING, DEAD or NOT YET BORN.)

[xtlm]

What sim is bblocker68 using??

I need a racing game...(other than trackmania nations)


sorry, about the off topic...

[pits4me]

Tracks are changed many times-including Long Beach. The track has changed since the Formula One days. Bottom line, like most CCWS fans, you just don't like anything involving the IRL and you believe that you are entitled to something. Which you're not.

We have one series now. Accept and deal with it, or go away. If you must stay, please be productive and constructive as opposed to simply whining and complaining. That achieves nothing.

I was a Champ Car fan but I am a racing fan even more. I support the IRL. If you can't, fine, but coming here and complaining doesn't achieve any result.

This isn't whining, far from it. If you think this is merely a Champ Car versus IRL thing you are sadly mistaken.

The problems with US-based open wheel go beyond one series versus another. To think the ICS can continue with 'business as usual', you and your ovalcentric followers are sadly mistaken. Neither series was going anywhere except down. Some think it was a test to see who could outspend who, others sought an opportunity to get a foundation in place of what they perceived to be the future of open wheel racing in America. Now we have the opposing mindsets sharing the same KVRT hospitality this past weekend.

That might also explain why many are now calling for the unified Indy Car World Series to adopt the best of both USOW worlds. Hence this thread:- http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126552

For those of us that have been going to Long Beach over the past 34 years (or less), there have been changes to the track -- I'm not denying that. With the addition of the Seaside Way thoroughfare, it made sense to eliminate the Ocean Blvd portion and hard right down Linden and back up to the hairpin which was then on Shoreline at Ocean. With the redevelopment at the Pike and Aquarium of the Pacific, changes were made because of redevelopment.

Changes were NEVER MADE because one of the series racing at the Long Beach circuit was technologically incapable of putting on a great performance.

It would have been a good gesture to test a Dallara last week and see exactly what it was capable of. My guess was the less known the better. Just don't forget, there were several drivers who muscled that Honda powered Dallara around St. Pete's and know all too well, the toll Long Beach takes on equipment like that. My point is to focus on the equipment not the race track.

Many fans like the turn 10 sweeper leading to the hairpin. Thats why there are 5 grand stands in proximity to that corner. #24, and #25 are always part of the premium hospitality packages. For people to suggest this be changed to disect the ALMS paddock and eliminate the hairpin, they might as well bulldoze the fountain as well. These are elements that make Long Beach what it is.

If there are going to be more street and road courses, then Indycar better get started on a chassis package more suiteable for that kind of competition!

[tifosi77]

I have no idea what possible changes could be incorporated that would have any sort of impact on the 'drivability' of the circuit in a certain type of car. Nor do I have any idea where the circuit could be modified. There has been so much development in Long Beach over the last decade.

About the only thing they could really do is extend the Seaside Way chute about 200 meters and then change the hairpin into a left-right complex.


The approach to one turn was changed, I did a comparison a few years back and made up common splits for CC and IRL.

The change was worth a couple hundreths maybe.

rh
They cut back the curb at the intersection of Shoreline and Aquarium Way - the apex of turn 1.


Since most major companies already have set marketing budgets for '08, let’s wait until the end of this year to see what teams pick up sponsorship.
This has been the only immediately positive aspect of the rushed nature of the assimilation - it means teams will have close to a full year for their sponsorship sales cycle. I think we all recognize that if the merger had been postponed until 2009, it would have been 'better' in the short term (at least for Champ Car teams). But this is one benefit that may or may not have been intended by the principals.

[bblocker68]

What sim is bblocker68 using??

I need a racing game...(other than trackmania nations)


sorry, about the off topic...

Wow, forgot about this thread. It's the CCWS05-06 mod for rFactor. I tried to mess with the engine files, but it really goofed up the balance of the car. rFactor now has mods for the IRL and soon the Panoz DP-01. CART 1998 and 1995 will be released one of these days.

[xtlm]

Wow, forgot about this thread. It's the CCWS05-06 mod for rFactor. I tried to mess with the engine files, but it really goofed up the balance of the car. rFactor now has mods for the IRL and soon the Panoz DP-01. CART 1998 and 1995 will be released one of these days.

sweet

i actually have tried the demo of r-factor.....it made me want to but a steering wheel and all.. (no funds at the moment tho...)

Thanks!, I didnt know about all of these mods, and now this just makes me want to get it even more!

[bblocker68]

You can find all of your rFactor needs at one simple stop:
http://rfactorcentral.com/

You'll be overwhelmed at how much content there is for rF these days.

[xtlm]

wow, that link is awesome...now i REALLY want this game lol

I cant seem to find the Indycar mod or the Champcar/CART mod