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DimitraF1
23rd March 2008, 11:25
It looks like he lost it there..if it was mechanical failure then the wheels would not spin and he would not try to get back to the race..Is it time for vettel in Ferrari? gifted a second place to bmw and lost 8 for constructors..

ioan
23rd March 2008, 12:18
He lost it. And he also had the luck to beach it in the last 2 square meters of gravel trap. Tough luck.
He better get his backside to work before it's too late.

harsha
23rd March 2008, 12:21
nah clearly lost it....and second what Ioan said

SGWilko
23rd March 2008, 13:04
To quote Mr Kool Aid himeself, I think he choked!!!! ;)

maxu05
23rd March 2008, 13:30
He lost it for sure. Pity though.

markabilly
23rd March 2008, 14:20
To quote Mr Kool Aid himeself, I think he choked!!!! ;)


First HK, and now Massa!!

LH is becoming a true leader, setting the example and making others trying to out do him when it comes to the "Hamster Choke"

When Jim Clark was dominating in F1, it was said that his driving set the example for others, he would go fast and others would match, just a slight gap behind, he would go slow and others would match just a split second behind, then the same was true with JYS......and now LH.... :D

Daniel
23rd March 2008, 16:23
I would say mechanical failure. That car spun a bit fast for for me to think it was Massa's fault.

Sleeper
23rd March 2008, 16:46
I'm inclined to believe it was a mechanicle failure in the suspension or drive train, it didnt look like Massa had done anything wrong on this occasion.

DazzlaF1
23rd March 2008, 17:00
Definitely looked like he simply lost it all by himself.

Worrying for him though, 2 races in, 0 points, that will definitely hurt Ferrari's constructors championship hopes

Easy Drifter
23rd March 2008, 17:05
Hard to be sure but I think he lost it.
He is not happy with the loss of traction control. He is very good but seems to take a while to adapt to anything new.

BTCC Fan#1
23rd March 2008, 17:06
A mistake from Massa, as they said at the time, nothing on the telemetry indicated a mechanical problem. He clipped the kerb a bit too hard at the previous corner, but looked like he just lost it under acceleration through the next bit. It was actually fairly similar to what happened in Oz.

2 races and 2 silly errors, Vettel to Ferrari before the end of the season anyone?

DazzlaF1
23rd March 2008, 17:11
A mistake from Massa, as they said at the time, nothing on the telemetry indicated a mechanical problem. He clipped the kerb a bit too hard at the previous corner, but looked like he just lost it under acceleration through the next bit. It was actually fairly similar to what happened in Oz.

2 races and 2 silly errors, Vettel to Ferrari before the end of the season anyone?

Nah i think they want Alonso, either that or they'll try and succeed where McLaren failed in approaching Rosberg

SGWilko
23rd March 2008, 17:38
As in Melbourne, he made it halfway round the corner before running out of talent......

f1rocks
23rd March 2008, 17:51
Massa is proving fast that he is cmpletely useless without TC. Needs all the driver aids. He was the one also whining before season start that without driver aids cars are so dangerous etc etc..

Time for Ferrari to dump him and maybe ask Michael to drive some of the European races. Just for helping the team in WCC..I dont think Michael will have any problem finishing the races despite being out of touch for about a couple of years...

Getta Massa out asap IMO...

f1rocks
23rd March 2008, 17:54
Nah i think they want Alonso, either that or they'll try and succeed where McLaren failed in approaching Rosberg

Why would they hire a black mailer and spoil the team harmony. If MS cant come back, then Ferrari needs someone like Button, Vettel or Heidfield. They need to stay away from the whiner....Let him struggle in that Renault....No more luck for the 2 time lucky champion. He can go the same way as a JV etc..

Roamy
23rd March 2008, 18:01
Why would they hire a black mailer and spoil the team harmony. If MS cant come back, then Ferrari needs someone like Button, Vettel or Heidfield. They need to stay away from the whiner....Let him struggle in that Renault....No more luck for the 2 time lucky champion. He can go the same way as a JV etc..


Yep Alonso is going the same way as JV ==== to the BANK

f1rocks
23rd March 2008, 18:11
Yep Alonso is going the same way as JV ==== to the BANK

And now JV cant even find a NASCRAP ride... Quite a pathetic career ending for a former F1 champ..Plus he got dumped out of F1 as well :D ...Alonso can repeat history which is fine with me...As long as he stays away from the Scuderia..

keysersoze
23rd March 2008, 18:11
Forgive me if someone already may have suggested this in another thread, but maybe Schumacher has been testing for Ferrari so that he can help his boy Massa, who he clearly favors, and who he knows excels with the driver aids.

On the other hand, with my one replay it did seem as if he lost it quickly even though he was not heavy on the throttle. When I watch it again this afternoon I'll give it another look.

f1rocks
23rd March 2008, 18:18
Forgive me if someone already may have suggested this in another thread, but maybe Schumacher has been testing for Ferrari so that he can help his boy Massa, who he clearly favors, and who he knows excels with the driver aids.

On the other hand, with my one replay it did seem as if he lost it quickly even though he was not heavy on the throttle. When I watch it again this afternoon I'll give it another look.

MS himself said that it was Massa who screwed up more in Australia. There is no favoritism. Massa has the writing on the wall without driver aids. He may be fast but lacks in race craft.. He is a good number 2 at Ferrari but needs to finish races.. That is not happening so far.

I predict he will screw up again in Baharain and that might be the end of his Ferrari career...

markabilly
23rd March 2008, 18:21
And now JV cant even find a NASCRAP ride... Quite a pathetic career ending for a former F1 champ..Plus he got dumped out of F1 as well :D ...Alonso can repeat history which is fine with me...As long as he stays away from the Scuderia..
For the 125 million $$$$$$$ plus JV got paid as his career went down the toilet, sure he cried all the way to bank

f1rocks
23rd March 2008, 18:36
For the 125 million $$$$$$$ plus JV got paid as his career went down the toilet, sure he cried all the way to bank

Ralf made more money than JV....What do we remember him as ???? Alonso has proven that he is in it just for the money and will most likely fade away soon..Moreover he will never be able to remove the dubious distinction of being beaten by a rookie in his first year...

As for the race he made a pathetic start got overtaken by 4-5 cars..Then he could not even overtake Webber.. Just mediocre driving and nothing special. What happened to the 1 second per lap that he brings over to the team etc etc...We could not really see that yesterday...

DimitraF1
23rd March 2008, 18:56
f1rocks

alonso is not driving the best car

f1rocks
23rd March 2008, 19:04
f1rocks

alonso is not driving the best car


Who is to blame for that. He was welcome to continue driving in the Mclaren. Only problem was that Lewis beat him which was too much for his ego to digest....So he got what he deserved after his antics last year....

Tazio
23rd March 2008, 20:44
Fred's talent is superior to Massa's
I would welcome him to Ferrari as a replacement for Massa
in a heartbeat. Fred had a terrible season for McLaren.
He missed the world championship by 1 point (and a p1)
The comparison with JV is just plain silly!

N. Jones
23rd March 2008, 21:15
nah clearly lost it....and second what Ioan said

I trey it. Plus, why is it that all of my FGP picks have the bad luck? :confused:

VkmSpouge
23rd March 2008, 21:20
It looked like an odd spin. Two spins without help isn't a very good way to start the season for Massa.

Daniel
23rd March 2008, 21:29
Wow. Two races and two dnf's and you guys are lining up replacements for the guy. Massa didn't start firing on all cylinders till later in the season last year as well and then no one was talking of replacing him.

PitMarshal
23rd March 2008, 22:01
Time for Ferrari to dump him and maybe ask Michael to drive some of the European races. Just for helping the team in WCC..I dont think Michael will have any problem finishing the races despite being out of touch for about a couple of years...

Except of course that with the exception of the Jordan, every car MS got in had traction control (legal or otherwise) fitted. If he is giving Massa tips on how to drive the car then I think Massa should ignore it...

Daniel
23rd March 2008, 22:12
Did the taxi have tc? When will the ignorance end? This is like when the active front and rear diffs were banned in the WRC. Apparently newer drivers like Loeb were going to suffer. Who is still winning? Loeb. I somehow doubt MS can't drive a car without TC.

wedge
23rd March 2008, 22:19
Although I do like the guy, I am usually quick to criticising Massa but this time I agree with Martin Brundle in that FM's off was very odd. You usually don't see many spins on quick corners via TC, though it would be much more understandle in dam/wet conditions.

Reading Ferrari's press release http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=282978&FS=F1 FM claims he hit the preceding kerb too hard but I vividly remember Massa was very smooth, having no problems till the rear snapped round (youtube link?).

Like Monza last year when Kimi crashed in practice, I can't help but think Ferrari know more than they would rather divulge. Perhaps something to do with rear suspension, though their third rear damper is no longer a secret.

markabilly
23rd March 2008, 22:28
Did the taxi have tc? .......................I somehow doubt MS can't drive a car without TC.


Good point, MS drove that taxi just fine......

jso1985
23rd March 2008, 22:52
Alonso has proven that he is in it just for the money

Link please!

anyway we're going off topic, I know you hate Alonso but on the first 2 races of the season he has done better races than Massa, that doesn't necesarily mean he's a better driver but I don't know why someone have to bring in Alonso into this topic.

Back on topic... Massa is driving bit like an amateur now, he certainly needs to get his game together otherwise he might get a "Duval style" punishment(being dropped from the team for 2-3 races until he calms down a bit)

SteveA
23rd March 2008, 23:11
Except of course that with the exception of the Jordan, every car MS got in had traction control (legal or otherwise) fitted. If he is giving Massa tips on how to drive the car then I think Massa should ignore it...

MS, and probably all F1 drivers, have a karting background, and AFAIK TC hasn't made it into karts (and certainly hadn't when they were cutting their teeth!)

Ranger
23rd March 2008, 23:24
This thread ain't about Schumacher and Alonso...

If that was a driver error from Felipe (it looked a bit suss), then it's a pretty poor showing from someone who wanted to start his championship yesterday.

Valve Bounce
23rd March 2008, 23:26
It looks like he lost it there..if it was mechanical failure then the wheels would not spin and he would not try to get back to the race..Is it time for vettel in Ferrari? gifted a second place to bmw and lost 8 for constructors..

YES!

wmcot
24th March 2008, 00:26
Reading Ferrari's press release http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=282978&FS=F1 FM claims he hit the preceding kerb too hard but I vividly remember Massa was very smooth, having no problems till the rear snapped round (youtube link?).


Isn't "hitting a kerb too hard" a driver error, too? I like FM, but I agree that the off looks to be his fault.

Hawkmoon
24th March 2008, 00:35
I think what we have here is 2006 Mark II. Massa took the first half of 2006 to sort himself out. The second half of the year saw him come on strong and culminated with a couple of wins and quite a few strong drives.

I think he's doing the same thing again. The question is why does a driver of his obvious speed and experience need to do this? If he was a real title contender he wouldn't need to do this.

Look at Raikkonen's response to his poor showing in Australia. He didn't put a wheel wrong all weekend and made his opposition look average. He absolutely nailed Massa at the first stop and was driving away from him when Massa chucked it at the scenery, again.

Massa is fast, Malaysia qualifying will attest to that, but he's no world champion and I don't think he ever will be. He'll continue to win races whilst ever he drives a quality car like the Ferrari but that's it. Brazil will have to continue looking for Ayrton Senna's successor.

osg
24th March 2008, 00:51
Nope, he ran out of talent.........

To cut a long story short:

He tries to squeeze the current WDC and his teammate into the weeds on the right side entering 1.

Runs like a little girl to attempt to get a gap leading into the first pitstop..... all the while Kimi just sits and waits like a viper.

Gets absolutely destroyed by Kimi on his inlap and preceding outlaps from the first round of stops....... then drops his bundle before letting ambition get in the way of ability trying to close an uncloseable gap to the Iceman.

He's admitted he choked again: http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/161124-0/massa_holds_hand_up_to_costly_mistake.html

I really am tired of this little clown bleating and moaning about equality and no #1 status within Ferrari.

This has got to stop, he must be told he is a #2 immediately. If he can't accept that, find another seat.

Ranger
24th March 2008, 01:03
It's disappointing when you realise someone who makes these kind of errors is contracted to a title-winning team until 2010. :\

He better sort himself out, licketty-split.

Daniel
24th March 2008, 01:11
Nope, he ran out of talent.........

To cut a long story short:

He tries to squeeze the current WDC and his teammate into the weeds on the right side entering 1.

Runs like a little girl to attempt to get a gap leading into the first pitstop..... all the while Kimi just sits and waits like a viper.

Gets absolutely destroyed by Kimi on his inlap and preceding outlaps from the first round of stops....... then drops his bundle before letting ambition get in the way of ability trying to close an uncloseable gap to the Iceman.

He's admitted he choked again: http://www.crash.net/motorsport/f1/news/161124-0/massa_holds_hand_up_to_costly_mistake.html

I really am tired of this little clown bleating and moaning about equality and no #1 status within Ferrari.

This has got to stop, he must be told he is a #2 immediately. If he can't accept that, find another seat.
He admits that he hit the kerb on the PREVIOUS corner but then says this of actually losing the car on the next one.


We have to check to see if the impact with the kerb damaged the car.

Perhaps you should read things the whole way through.

As other people and Brundle have said it wasn't a normal spin. The car didn't get out of shape and he tried to hold it. The car just went and wasn't coming back no matter who the driver. To me it sounds like something broke in the suspension department after his impact with the kerb and when he went into the next corner the car just went into a spin.

Ranger
24th March 2008, 01:15
He admits that he hit the kerb on the PREVIOUS corner but then says this of actually losing the car on the next one.
Well if it's because of the impact with the kerb then it's still his fault.


Perhaps you should read things the whole way through.

As other people and Brundle have said it wasn't a normal spin. The car didn't get out of shape and he tried to hold it. The car just went and wasn't coming back no matter who the driver. To me it sounds like something broke in the suspension department after his impact with the kerb and when he went into the next corner the car just went into a spin.
Ferrari said there were no anomalies on the telemetry.

Surely with those hundreds of millions of dollars, something would have picked up on a suspension failure.

Daniel
24th March 2008, 01:18
It looks like he lost it there..if it was mechanical failure then the wheels would not spin and he would not try to get back to the race..Is it time for vettel in Ferrari? gifted a second place to bmw and lost 8 for constructors..
Not true at all. If something in the suspension broke it doesn't mean that the wheels won't spin. Also how would Massa know something is broken and not to try to get back on the road?

Just giving him the benefit of the doubt ;)

osg
24th March 2008, 01:23
Well if it's because of the impact with the kerb then it's still his fault.


Ferrari said there were no anomalies on the telemetry.

Surely with those hundreds of millions of dollars, something would have picked up on a suspension failure.

my sentiments exactly.

Felipe Massa - you are a #2 driver
Felipe Massa - you are a #2 driver
Felipe Massa - you are a #2 driver
Felipe Massa - you are a #2 driver
Felipe Massa - you are a #2 driver
Felipe Massa - you are a #2 driver
Felipe Massa - you are a #2 driver
Felipe Massa - you are a #2 driver
Felipe Massa - you are a #2 driver

when is the little gnome going to accept this? It will be a far smarter thing for him to do rather than consistently throwing away good results due to an inability to accept the inevitable.

Daniel
24th March 2008, 01:29
So if he accepts he's number 2 then suddenly his suspension might get more robust. Cool?

Ranger
24th March 2008, 01:31
So if he accepts he's number 2 then suddenly his suspension might get more robust. Cool?

The only one saying he had a suspension failure here is you... with no evidence.

Daniel
24th March 2008, 01:33
What else would have broken from hitting a kerb hard? His flux capacitor? :laugh:

osg
24th March 2008, 01:34
So if he accepts he's number 2 then suddenly his suspension might get more robust. Cool?

nope. not at all.

If he accepts #2 status, pulls his head out of his **** and drives within his limits..... he will have a fine season. If he had sat back, turned down the revs and cruised he gets 2nd.

He didn't, he choked again and not Massa, you or anyone else is gonna cover up that fact with poor excuses .

osg
24th March 2008, 01:35
What else would have broken from hitting a kerb hard? His flux capacitor? :laugh:

where is the statement from Ferrari apologizing to Felipe for the mechanical failure then Daniel????

Oh, thats right...... there is none, because MASSA CHOKED AGAIN.

Deal with it mate, your boy is #2.

Ranger
24th March 2008, 01:38
What else would have broken from hitting a kerb hard? His flux capacitor? :laugh:

Or maybe nothing broke. Maybe he just tossed it.

I'll say again:

Ferrari said there were no anomalies on the telemetry.

Surely with those hundreds of millions of dollars, something would have picked up on a suspension failure.

That underlined sentence is a euphemism for driver error IMO.

gloomyDAY
24th March 2008, 01:38
Reminds me of this spin last year. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIG5YAu0ZgA)

Daniel
24th March 2008, 01:40
I'm not a Massa fan. What made you think that? Stop with your silly choking nonsense too. Do you know what choking is? Massa says the team is looking into things. People on this forum think they're experts and read into things too early. Massa was very much in the hunt for the title last year till near the end. Hardly the mark of a crap driver.

osg
24th March 2008, 01:53
Massa was very much in the hunt for the title last year till near the end. Hardly the mark of a crap driver.

Lost the title by 16 points......... in the hunt till near the end? Rubbish. Not even the last half of the season, lets compare shall we Daniel from round 8 onwards?:


Raikkonen:

1st: 5
2nd: 2
3rd: 2
Retired: 1

Points: 78


Massa:

1st: 1
2nd: 4
3rd: 1
5th: 1
6th: 1
13th: 1
Retired: 1

Points: 55

When the chips were down........... who responded?

Daniel
24th March 2008, 02:08
Lost the title by 16 points......... in the hunt till near the end? Rubbish. Not even the last half of the season, lets compare shall we Daniel from round 8 onwards?:


Raikkonen:

1st: 5
2nd: 2
3rd: 2
Retired: 1

Points: 78


Massa:

1st: 1
2nd: 4
3rd: 1
5th: 1
6th: 1
13th: 1
Retired: 1

Points: 55

When the chips were down........... who responded?
*sigh*

Someone always loses. Someone has to be second. If Ferrari had let both drivers fight for wins Hamilton would have won the title. Why don't you compare them up until France last year? You could argue that when the potato wedges were on the table earlier in the season Massa responded better. Statistics can prove anything

osg
24th March 2008, 02:09
*sigh*

Someone always loses. Someone has to be second. If Ferrari had let both drivers fight for wins Hamilton would have won the title. Why don't you compare them up until France last year? You could argue that when the potato wedges were on the table earlier in the season Massa responded better. Statistics can prove anything

yep, they can.... you don't win the title in the first half of the season:

Raikkonen: 110 WDC
Massa: 94

End of Arguement.

wedge
24th March 2008, 02:10
where is the statement from Ferrari apologizing to Felipe for the mechanical failure then Daniel???


I certainly wouldn't rule out driver error but Ferrari aren't obliged to admit in public what was exactly wrong. Remember that F1 has a secretive element. When Mansell drove for Ferrari whenever he had gearbox problems he never divulged to the full extent that Ferrari were running semi-automatic 'box.

More recently when Kimi crashed during Saturday morning practice in Italy last year, Kimi held his hands up saying it was his fault but strong paddock rumours suggested it was rear suspension failure, possibly to hide their new rear suspension/third damper layout.

Daniel
24th March 2008, 02:12
yep, they can.... you don't win the title in the first half of the season:

Raikkonen: 110 WDC
Massa: 94

End of Arguement.
Congratulations on the understanding of year 2 maths.

By my reckoning Kimi and Felipe are 2 and 2 for bonehead moves this year. I don't include DC's bonehead move to be Felipe's fault.

Daniel
24th March 2008, 02:13
I certainly wouldn't rule out driver error but Ferrari aren't obliged to admit in public what was exactly wrong. Remember that F1 has a secretive element. When Mansell drove for Ferrari whenever he had gearbox problems he never divulged to the full extent that Ferrari were running semi-automatic 'box.

More recently when Kimi crashed during Saturday morning practice in Italy last year, Kimi held his hands up saying it was his fault but strong paddock rumours suggested it was rear suspension failure, possibly to hide their new rear suspension/third damper layout.
You're completely wrong. Forum Expert > F1 driver :)

osg
24th March 2008, 02:16
Congratulations on the understanding of year 2 maths.

By my reckoning Kimi and Felipe are 2 and 2 for bonehead moves this year. I don't include DC's bonehead move to be Felipe's fault.

yawns......... Massa: DNF x 2, 0 points....... Iceman 1 DNF... 1 Win, 11 points.

Keep going Daniel......

jjanicke
24th March 2008, 02:24
He admits that he hit the kerb on the PREVIOUS corner but then says this of actually losing the car on the next one.



Perhaps you should read things the whole way through.

As other people and Brundle have said it wasn't a normal spin. The car didn't get out of shape and he tried to hold it. The car just went and wasn't coming back no matter who the driver. To me it sounds like something broke in the suspension department after his impact with the kerb and when he went into the next corner the car just went into a spin.

Great speculation, but I would suspect the car to display issues under braking and not mid-turn, as was, if the suspension had been damaged in the previous turn.


What else would have broken from hitting a kerb hard? His flux capacitor?

Maybe nothing broke. Just a guess though!


*sigh*

Someone always loses. Someone has to be second. If Ferrari had let both drivers fight for wins Hamilton would have won the title. Why don't you compare them up until France last year? You could argue that when the potato wedges were on the table earlier in the season Massa responded better. Statistics can prove anything

Massa also happend to be starting his 3rd season with Ferrari (including 2005 as a Ferrari test driver). Kimi was starting for the very first time with Ferrari. I would tend to believe Massa would have the edge starting the 2007 season off.

AJP
24th March 2008, 03:37
The way I see it..

Massa hit the curb a little too hard as we all know.

This has caused the a slight imbalance in the car for the next turn which he tries to attack as usual, with the usual throttle input.

you can do that with traction control, but not without it..

at least he gave it a go, but has paid the price.

Azumanga Davo
24th March 2008, 05:33
I'm not a Massa fan. What made you think that? Stop with your silly choking nonsense too. Do you know what choking is? Massa says the team is looking into things. People on this forum think they're experts and read into things too early. Massa was very much in the hunt for the title last year till near the end. Hardly the mark of a crap driver.

Can't imagine why, the bold part made me laugh though.

He's stuffed it on his own, but no need to re-read his contract just yet, methinks...

harsha
24th March 2008, 05:39
not defending Massa...but aren't calls for him to be fired a bit too premature...

Tazio
24th March 2008, 06:25
not defending Massa...but aren't calls for him to be fired a bit too premature...
Personally I expected Massa to represent Ferrari with a few points by now!
My negative comments are really just venting my frustration.
It's still a wee bit early to ask for his head on a stick!
But only a wee bit!

wmcot
24th March 2008, 08:33
What else would have broken from hitting a kerb hard? His flux capacitor? :laugh:

His concentration!

leopard
24th March 2008, 08:45
Massa get frustrated over the strategy implemented for him, no matter what he does in qualifying, he'll be called first into the pit. :D

harsha
24th March 2008, 08:46
Massa was definetly lighter than Raikkonen in Qualifying...

strangely he couldn't match the qualifying laptimes @ the race

leopard
24th March 2008, 09:00
He lost too much time for the pit (as usual ;) )

ArrowsFA1
24th March 2008, 09:53
The way I see it...
According to this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66056) report the way you see it is spot on :up: :

The team said Massa had clouted the kerb on the exit of Turn 6, stalling the car's aerodynamics and meaning he had too much downforce on the front when he started to turn in. That meant the Brazilian lost the rear end of his car.
TC would have fixed Felipe's kerb clouting error last year, but it seems as if his talent cannot make up for its' loss.

samuratt
24th March 2008, 10:23
Two mistakes in two races, very bad for a driver that wants to fight for the campionship!

Too early to look for a replacemente i think...

Daniel
24th March 2008, 10:26
According to this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66056) report the way you see it is spot on :up: :

TC would have fixed Felipe's kerb clouting error last year, but it seems as if his talent cannot make up for its' loss.
Sounds most likely. So basically any driver who does this will experience the same outcome.

ArrowsFA1
24th March 2008, 10:50
So basically any driver who does this will experience the same outcome.
How does that follow? On the evidence of the two races we've seen so far, Massa appears to be suffering more than most from the lack of TC. Perhaps he's simply taking longer than most to adapt without it, but time is not on his side.

jens
24th March 2008, 10:54
I'm not going to take anything away from Massa's previous achievements. With TC he was a very capable driver and could be even among the fastest ones, but it looks like the loss of TC has affected (in negative way) his performance more than any other driver. Actually hard to notice any difference among other drivers (whether they are more/less competitive than before), but in FM's case it's quite obvious. He is still one of the best qualifiers, but it seems that he finds it hard to drive constantly throughout the race without TC. Massa reminds a bit of Montoya from his last F1 season (2006) - desperate to keep the pace of his team-mate, but finds that task too hard to accomplish and bins it.

Unless a dramatic change takes place, it's becoming hard to see him in Ferrari beyond 2008.

janneppi
24th March 2008, 10:55
Sounds most likely. So basically any driver who does this will experience the same outcome.
If by this you mean misjudging the grip you have in rear wheels and spinning because of it, yes. :)
If you mean driving over a kerb will cause a spin to any driver, not necessarily.

Dzeidzei
24th March 2008, 12:52
I'm not going to take anything away from Massa's previous achievements. With TC he was a very capable driver and could be even among the fastest ones, but it looks like the loss of TC has affected (in negative way) his performance more than any other driver. Actually hard to notice any difference among other drivers (whether they are more/less competitive than before), but in FM's case it's quite obvious. He is still one of the best qualifiers, but it seems that he finds it hard to drive constantly throughout the race without TC. Massa reminds a bit of Montoya from his last F1 season (2006) - desperate to keep the pace of his team-mate, but finds that task too hard to accomplish and bins it.

Unless a dramatic change takes place, it's becoming hard to see him in Ferrari beyond 2008.

I´d say Jens sums it up. But maybe we should give Felipe some more time. Clearly Kimis speed in Malaysia made him overdue it, but there will be tracks where he´s able to hold it together. But I think hes the first to admit he needs to start performing NOW. In Bahrain he´ll need a podium finish, anything less is a disaster.


IMO ha can do it.

Dzeidzei
24th March 2008, 12:52
I'm not going to take anything away from Massa's previous achievements. With TC he was a very capable driver and could be even among the fastest ones, but it looks like the loss of TC has affected (in negative way) his performance more than any other driver. Actually hard to notice any difference among other drivers (whether they are more/less competitive than before), but in FM's case it's quite obvious. He is still one of the best qualifiers, but it seems that he finds it hard to drive constantly throughout the race without TC. Massa reminds a bit of Montoya from his last F1 season (2006) - desperate to keep the pace of his team-mate, but finds that task too hard to accomplish and bins it.

Unless a dramatic change takes place, it's becoming hard to see him in Ferrari beyond 2008.

I´d say Jens sums it up. But maybe we should give Felipe some more time. Clearly Kimis speed in Malaysia made him overdue it, but there will be tracks where he´s able to hold it together. But I think hes the first to admit he needs to start performing NOW. In Bahrain he´ll need a podium finish, anything less is a disaster.


IMO he can do it.

wedge
24th March 2008, 14:36
According to this (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66056) report the way you see it is spot on :up: :

TC would have fixed Felipe's kerb clouting error last year, but it seems as if his talent cannot make up for its' loss.

I really don't buy that! Press releases are akin to political spin at times. Ferrari are trying to protect the car/Massa from being lynched.

My mind's split between 60:40 driver error/mechanical failure.

If Massa clouted the kerb too hard and upset the aerodynamics then that would've unsettle the car and Massa would be fighting the steering wheel but he was smooth throughout until the back end stepped out.

Currently listening to the BBC podcast, Johnny Noble and Maurice Hamilton sound mystified and sceptical so it wasn't just Brundle!

Tazio
24th March 2008, 16:16
not defending Massa...but aren't calls for him to be fired a bit too premature...
according to his wife you are spot on:
On live Brazilian television, Rafaela Bassi-Massa blankly labelled the gossip as "bull****".
http://www.feedmef1.com/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=9676

maxu05
24th March 2008, 16:23
1000 cars could have hit that curb and not got stuck in the sand box. I think he was just unlucky. Sure he made a slight error, but how many other drivers made errors during the race. I think he will be kicking himself, and will bounce back with a new resolve.

Firstgear
24th March 2008, 16:31
I think it was Massa's error. But I don't think it will jepordize his career at Ferrari. Ferrari don't want the kind of situation McLaren had last year, with two drivers thinking they should be number one. Mistakes like Massa is making this year make it very easy for Ferrarir to take Massa aside and tell him his charge for the title has expaired, and it's time to protect Kimi and bring in solid points for the WCC. He accepted this roll when he was alongside MS, so why not again, now that he sees he's not Kimi's equal.

He's proven in the past that he can be a good support driver. So far this year, the pressure of trying to be a #1 driver has been too much for him.

SGWilko
24th March 2008, 18:14
I certainly wouldn't rule out driver error but Ferrari aren't obliged to admit in public what was exactly wrong. Remember that F1 has a secretive element. When Mansell drove for Ferrari whenever he had gearbox problems he never divulged to the full extent that Ferrari were running semi-automatic 'box.

I seem to recall it was common knowledge that Ferrari had a semi auto shift. The main problem with the failures was not the gearbox itself, but belts coming off the additional alternator that drove the solenoids controlling the shift mechanism (I think they are all hydraulic now).

Tazio
24th March 2008, 18:53
I think the rumor mill is working overtime :D

Massa exit rumours reignite Manipe F1 11:23

Ferrari rumours 'logical' - Alonso Manipe F1 11:12

Alonso accepts 'logical' Ferrari rumours Setanta Sports - Formula 1 11:07

Ferrari rumours 'logical' says Alonso Home of Sport - F1 11:05


Massa put up some points or Fred will have your job.

Kimi is not the same nationallity as the manufacturer.
So Fred will not have to fell like a second class citizen,
and the outsider at Ferrari!
I'd like to here Kimi say
"For sure, bring it on!" :)

Tazio
24th March 2008, 19:10
2009 could be a very interesting season if Kimi wins WDC 2008,
and Fred gets out of Renault contract and joins Ferrari.
Two double WDC in a "Steel Cage Match" in the same equipment!
Even Bernie would be rubbing his grimey mitts together over
that possibility!

Juppe
24th March 2008, 19:20
2009 could be a very interesting season if Kimi wins WDC 2008,
and Fred gets out of Renault contract and joins Ferrari.
Two double WDC in a "Steel Cage Match" in the same equipment!
Even Bernie would be rubbing his grimey mitts together over
that possibility!

You got that one wrong!

Bernie has always been eager to keep the biggest stars of his circus in different teams.

The reason is quite obvious - that way the uncertainty of who's the best driver remains unsolved and nobody gets hurt and fanbase can keep supporting their heroes.

Look what happened with Kimi/Montoya battle. Montoya was very important driver for Bernie because of his supporters in South America, but because of teammate battle, Monty is out and popularity of F1 took a dive.

So in the long run its best for Bernie to let his biggest stars to keep their gloria and fanbase. That's why he wants his stars in separate teams.

Tazio
24th March 2008, 19:35
The reason is quite obvious - that way the uncertainty of who's the best driver remains unsolved and nobody gets hurt and fanbase can keep supporting their heroes.
And do I here the crowd sreaming "REMATCH!!!!" in 2010 :D
(if any of this fantasy scenario actually played out)

samuratt
24th March 2008, 20:06
2009 could be a very interesting season if Kimi wins WDC 2008,
and Fred gets out of Renault contract and joins Ferrari.
Two double WDC in a "Steel Cage Match" in the same equipment!
Even Bernie would be rubbing his grimey mitts together over
that possibility!

I can't see Fernando driving a Ferrari alongside Kimi. If things keeps this trend over the seasson and Kimi is finally WDC and Ferrari WCC there will be no replacement. If Kimi is WDC but Ferrari isn't WCC i can see Massa leaving. If the championship goes to McLaren (having Ferrari the fastest car) I can see Fernando at Manarello.

On the other hand Fernando is free to go to another team at the end of the seasson if the Renault is not good enough (surely by paying some money in exchange). Something like that is stated on the contract, or at least it has been reported to be like that in the spanish media.

So I can see Fernando at BMW if the car keeps improving but their drivers fail to deliver.

ioan
24th March 2008, 20:31
Did the taxi have tc? When will the ignorance end? This is like when the active front and rear diffs were banned in the WRC. Apparently newer drivers like Loeb were going to suffer. Who is still winning? Loeb. I somehow doubt MS can't drive a car without TC.

You're just losing your time Daniel!
Let them talk and enjoy the season. That's what I decided to do. ;)

ioan
24th March 2008, 20:44
yep, they can.... you don't win the title in the first half of the season:

Raikkonen: 110 WDC
Massa: 94

End of Arguement.

So if Massa doesn't give up his 1st place in Brazil than we would have had.


FA 3 times WDC
LH 2nd

Raikkonen :108 3rd in the championship
Massa: 96 4th in the championship

Big difference! :rolleyes:

So, who gave Raikkonen the chance to become WDC? Maybe Massa!

But hey, people around here don't know what is that team spirit, they just come here to kick someone when he's down, this make them feel better and I wonder why is that! :rolleyes:

Oh BTW, how the hell is this Massa guy 0.6 seconds / lap faster than Raikkonen in qualifying?! He's no good according to self proclaimed F1 connoisseurs!

jjanicke
24th March 2008, 21:28
So if Massa doesn't give up his 1st place in Brazil than we would have had.


FA 3 times WDC
LH 2nd

Raikkonen :108 3rd in the championship
Massa: 96 4th in the championship

Big difference! :rolleyes:

So, who gave Raikkonen the chance to become WDC? Maybe Massa!

But hey, people around here don't know what is that team spirit, they just come here to kick someone when he's down, this make them feel better and I wonder why is that! :rolleyes:

Oh BTW, how the hell is this Massa guy 0.6 seconds / lap faster than Raikkonen in qualifying?! He's no good according to self proclaimed F1 connoisseurs!

He was .482 faster, not .6. Kimi was heavier with fuel.

ioan
24th March 2008, 21:41
He was .482 faster, not .6. Kimi was heavier with fuel.

2 laps of fuel do not account for half a second / lap in Sepang.

jjanicke
24th March 2008, 21:42
2 laps of fuel do not account for half a second / lap in Sepang.

How do you know it was that much extra fuel? You have insight into something we don't.

Pit stops and fuel don't always correlate.

ioan
24th March 2008, 21:43
How do you know it was that much extra fuel? You have insight into something we don't.

Pit stops and fuel don't always correlate.

:rolleyes:

jjanicke
24th March 2008, 21:49
:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

GP-M3
24th March 2008, 22:19
I just don't understand the Fred to Ferrari talk.

WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT. Risk disunity of the team. Kimi is certainly as quick if not quicker than FA. But Kimi is a team player. Look at his willingness and non-complaint at Massa squeezing him at the start in Malaysia.

First things first... they need to tell Massa to not pull any stunts on Kimi at the start... no game playing with his team-mate. That was even the case in Brazil last year, Kimi might have been able to pass Felipe there, but no body spoke of that. Kimi knew Massa needed to finish 2nd, so he didn't fight for it. This time Massa looked like a chump almost cutting of his teammate.

2nd, Massa should be told that once Kimi passes him in these situations, that he needs to be content to stay behind him, especially when he can not (unlike Kimi) keep up with him when running behind further.

That is the way to see that Kimi is the fastest, whenever he is behind, he can usually keep up, but when Massa is behind, he then falls behind further.

jjanicke
24th March 2008, 22:25
Massa's not even close to Kimi in overall performance. He certainly has his days, but can't string together performance day in and day out.

Juppe
24th March 2008, 23:27
So if Massa doesn't give up his 1st place in Brazil than we would have had.
...



I have no idea, why people seem to assume that the outcome would have been Massa's win in Brazil, if he didn't let Kimi win?

Are you insinuating that Massa let Kimi pass in Maleysia as well? I don't think so - it seems that Massa is a very good qualifier, but Kimi is more consistent with his race pace.

Anyways, it is very much besides the point, because they never were racing against eachother in Brazil so we do not know what would have been the outcome.

ioan
24th March 2008, 23:50
Anyways, it is very much besides the point, because they never were racing against eachother in Brazil so we do not know what would have been the outcome.

Right, why race when you know you'll be gifted the race anyway! You might risk to blow it somewhere on the your way to greatness! ;)

markabilly
25th March 2008, 02:24
:rolleyes:


:rolleyes:


:rolleyes:

ShiftingGears
25th March 2008, 06:06
:rolleyes:


:rolleyes:


:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

ShiftingGears
25th March 2008, 06:09
Right, why race when you know you'll be gifted the race anyway! You might risk to blow it somewhere on the your way to greatness! ;)

If Massa is so good like you say then Ferrari wouldn't be playing the #1 and #2 game this early in the season, like you're suggesting.

The way I saw it was that Kimi just nailed him exactly where he had to. If Massa doesn't bounce back in Bahrain I think he will have to play #2 to Kimi.

jjanicke
25th March 2008, 06:26
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

;)

Roamy
25th March 2008, 07:00
well I don't anticipate Fred going to Ferrari as long as Kimi is there. But I really think the series will tighten up and Fred's options will be many. I certainly would not count out Renault to make a huge comeback and even faster than Fred thinks. BMW will have to evaluate the car vs the driver. Meaning are Heidfield and Kubica in the same class as kimi and fred? Also I think many teams are on the rise. and I think with current restrictions it will allow more teams to become competitive - hence more opportunity for the drivers. we need now for about 5 or 6 teams to be capable of winning.

leopard
25th March 2008, 07:09
If Massa is so good like you say then Ferrari wouldn't be playing the #1 and #2 game this early in the season, like you're suggesting.

The way I saw it was that Kimi just nailed him exactly where he had to. If Massa doesn't bounce back in Bahrain I think he will have to play #2 to Kimi.

When did Ferrari start to play the game without the# 1 and 2?
The scenario already decided before the the season started, or maybe before Kimi joined Ferrari. ;)

osg
25th March 2008, 08:19
So if Massa doesn't give up his 1st place in Brazil than we would have had.


FA 3 times WDC
LH 2nd

Raikkonen :108 3rd in the championship
Massa: 96 4th in the championship

Big difference! :rolleyes:

So, who gave Raikkonen the chance to become WDC? Maybe Massa!

But hey, people around here don't know what is that team spirit, they just come here to kick someone when he's down, this make them feel better and I wonder why is that! :rolleyes:

Oh BTW, how the hell is this Massa guy 0.6 seconds / lap faster than Raikkonen in qualifying?! He's no good according to self proclaimed F1 connoisseurs!

Irrespective of the smoke and mirrors, or whether Felipe pulled over for Kimi in Interlagos..... or whatever........ the cold hard facts remain Felipe finished 4th and Kimi is WDC. Nothing changes that.

Is felipe a team player? For sure.

Do i respect him for putting the team in front of his own goals? Yep.

Is he a possible future WDC? No. Pure and Simple......... the consistency is just not there.

0.6 of a second quicker in Quali? Does it Matter? Once again he throws a race away from Pole. How? INCONSISTENCY.

If Ferrari want to win the WCC this year he will have to pull his socks up....... Honestly bagging the little fella is getting boring because he gives us soooo many opportunities.

I personally have never rated Massa, never will either, but that's just my opinion, no need to crucify me for it..........

His time at Maranello is ticking away.... he needs to know his place in teh setup of the team, and that is as #2. Less confusion, one goal. If he doesn't like it he can go drive for Honda or STR......

What would you rather be Ioan? #2 on the greatest team in F1?.........

or #1 at an also ran?

Juppe
25th March 2008, 09:07
Right, why race when you know you'll be gifted the race anyway! You might risk to blow it somewhere on the your way to greatness! ;)

Are you implying that it was not the right thing to do?

ArrowsFA1
25th March 2008, 09:12
Oh BTW, how the hell is this Massa guy 0.6 seconds / lap faster than Raikkonen in qualifying?! He's no good according to self proclaimed F1 connoisseurs!
I think Massa has proved many times that he can put together superb qualifying laps, which suggests that his outright speed is not in question.

SGWilko
25th March 2008, 09:23
they just come here to kick someone when he's down, this make them feel better and I wonder why is that! :rolleyes:


I can just picture Joe Walsh singing "Guilty Of The Crime" just for you Ioan.

Your halo dropped with that comment...... pot.......kettle......?

Knock-on
25th March 2008, 10:25
Another GP and another Massa mistake.

I have said it before but he's not WDC material. He's quick without a doubt but is he finding that he hasn't the outright race pace to live with Kimi? Is he driving beyond his ability or is it just a case of severe brain fade?

Ferrari need to have a little chat with him I think. They let him think he could have been a contender but they need to get him to face facts and accept that he's a Lap dog for Kimi.

ioan
25th March 2008, 10:26
Irrespective of the smoke and mirrors, or whether Felipe pulled over for Kimi in Interlagos..... or whatever........ the cold hard facts remain Felipe finished 4th and Kimi is WDC. Nothing changes that.

So Argentina winning the Football World Cup after Maradonna used his hand to place the ball in the net is also OK.

I just gave you an insight given that you are a bit short sighted on the matter. The point was that Kimi wouldn't have been WDC if not for Massa giving up his position at the 2nd pit stop after he dominated the practice sessions, the qualifying and 2/3rds of the race.
Either you take it up or you continue to ignore it, I just showed you how small the difference between WDC and 3rd can be, and how much chance and help is needed to become one!

ioan
25th March 2008, 10:27
Another GP and another Massa mistake.

I have said it before but he's not WDC material. He's quick without a doubt but is he finding that he hasn't the outright race pace to live with Kimi? Is he driving beyond his ability or is it just a case of severe brain fade?

Ferrari need to have a little chat with him I think. They let him think he could have been a contender but they need to get him to face facts and accept that he's a Lap dog for Kimi.

Ferrari not concerned by Massa's form:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66073

ioan
25th March 2008, 10:30
I think Massa has proved many times that he can put together superb qualifying laps, which suggests that his outright speed is not in question.

Yes and that even without TC.
That's why all this BS about how he is average without TC is just that, bullcrap.
Drivers lost it in the past, with and without TC, even the best ones.

Anyway the season is still only at the start. :)

janneppi
25th March 2008, 10:58
I vaguely remember Kimi saying lack TC shouldn't affect lap times, at least not in qualies. It's the races where the difference is bigger as they now need to fully concentrate on every corner.

leopard
25th March 2008, 11:01
Despite of having superb qualifying laps, considering things this year he won't be as good as last year. :)

If only he can manage Heikki and following Lewis closely his chance to win Melbourne round was slightly bigger.

pino
25th March 2008, 12:09
Ferrari not concerned by Massa's form:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66073

What you expect them to say ? They need him to win both titles, but I can assure you that they are already considering options for next year ;)

ioan
25th March 2008, 12:17
What you expect them to say ? They need him to win both titles, but I can assure you that they are already considering options for next year ;)

Yeah like they did with Kimi after the first 8 races last season! :rolleyes:

Oh and BTW if they are considering replacing him next season because he's not good enough for them, than why not do it now? Why endanger this year's constructors title chances? Why wait till next year? There's a bit of contradiction in your info. ;)

pino
25th March 2008, 12:22
Yeah like they did with Kimi after the first 8 races last season! :rolleyes:

I don't know where did you get that because Ferrari, (I mean Luca di Montezemolo) never considered to replace Kimi since they signed him. As for Massa, I've said they are considering, didn't say they will do that ;)

ArrowsFA1
25th March 2008, 12:55
Whether you rate Massa or not he needs a strong result in Bahrain.

markabilly
25th March 2008, 12:58
Massa is not bad enough to be replaced now, and just who would replace him in mid season. Who is "available"

Well, now that i think about it, there is MS but he has clearly said he is out and not available.

That leaves the best there is and will ever be, my hero, Snot not Speed. :love:
Yes put Speedie in the ferrari. And bring back the USGP!!!

NOW :s mash:


Just let uncle Sponge Bob try to cut off Speedie's ferrari!!!

samuratt
25th March 2008, 15:15
What you expect them to say ? They need him to win both titles, but I can assure you that they are already considering options for next year ;)

Can you tip us the options Pinoż?

I've heard so far Vettel and Alonso, but that is just media speculation. Have you heard of somebody else?

Tazio
25th March 2008, 16:29
I just don't understand the Fred to Ferrari talk.

WHY WOULD THEY DO THAT.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7312280.stm

Here's one very good reason:
"Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo is known to regard Alonso highly."

Fred's own words
"But as I have a clause that allows me to leave I will try to be in the best car possible, and it's clear that Ferrari is one of the best."

It's early to talk about moves and rumours, but Massa has had two bad races with mistakes and that has kicked off speculation," Alonso said.

"It's logical, but it's too early."

I'm not saying that this is the most likely place Fred will drive next year!
But It wouldn't be the first time Ferrari had co-#1's

markabilly
25th March 2008, 18:57
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7312280.stm

Here's one very good reason:
"Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo is known to regard Alonso highly."

Fred's own words
"But as I have a clause that allows me to leave I will try to be in the best car possible, and it's clear that Ferrari is one of the best."

It's early to talk about moves and rumours, but Massa has had two bad races with mistakes and that has kicked off speculation," Alonso said.

"It's logical, but it's too early."

I'm not saying that this is the most likely place Fred will drive next year!
But It wouldn't be the first time Ferrari had co-#1's
That would be for next year. i assume you think massa is safe for this year?

Tazio
25th March 2008, 19:14
That would be for next year. i assume you think massa is safe for this year?Well I think he's safe because I believe his skill level is adequate with the equipment he has.
But if he continues to screw up through Spain. He may well be replaced by the Spaniard-------
-------Gene :D
In the unlikely event that Fred comes on board, it won't be untill 2009

cy bais
25th March 2008, 19:54
lost it - he made the excuse before the season started about F1 life without traction control.
:)

osg
25th March 2008, 20:33
So Argentina winning the Football World Cup after Maradonna used his hand to place the ball in the net is also OK.

I just gave you an insight given that you are a bit short sighted on the matter. The point was that Kimi wouldn't have been WDC if not for Massa giving up his position at the 2nd pit stop after he dominated the practice sessions, the qualifying and 2/3rds of the race.
Either you take it up or you continue to ignore it, I just showed you how small the difference between WDC and 3rd can be, and how much chance and help is needed to become one!

Noted...... but you need to face the cold hard facts that no matter how many excuses you find for him...... Massa will forever be the #2 whilst he is at Ferrari, and Kimi will NEVER have to pull over to enable Felipe to win a WDC.

Correct?

trumperZ06
25th March 2008, 21:27
Yes and that even without TC.
That's why all this BS about how he is average without TC is just that, bullcrap.
Drivers lost it in the past, with and without TC, even the best ones.

Anyway the season is still only at the start. :)

;) Janneepi got it "mostly right" !

Traction control allows for an occasional slight error, as the car will catch the mistake/thereby saving the driver.

:dozey: Ioan doesn't come close...

You can "push" a car for a few qualifying laps... and get away with it.

In a race, too many things are happening all around you... and without TC...

a moment's lapse in concentration will put you off... if you are "over-driving" the car.

:s mokin: Trumper

JSH
25th March 2008, 22:02
Whether you rate Massa or not he needs a strong result in Bahrain.

THIS is the statement of the thread.

2 races... 2 ducks. My money's on a hat-trick.

jjanicke
26th March 2008, 02:05
Let's face it. 2 purely driver related errors in 2 races does not bode well, however there are still plenty of races left to make up for those driver errors.

leopard
26th March 2008, 03:32
His position as a man who was already in the team first with such 'designation' will drive him to such error and it humanly happens to everyone. Even an Alonso wasn't easy to avoid the error when he was teamed up in the McLaren. I think we have to admit that Alonso has the coolest head controlling emotion and still be able to deliver as such.

Roamy
26th March 2008, 06:53
massa is just cementing his number two status. Not to worry he will bounce back and be number two

wmcot
26th March 2008, 07:26
massa is just cementing his number two status. Not to worry he will bounce back and be number two

Once he gets to grips with driving without TC, he might move up to team number 1 1/2! ;)

leopard
27th March 2008, 06:05
Get the grip driving without TC and how can he motivate himself ... self motivation.

ShiftingGears
27th March 2008, 06:21
So Argentina winning the Football World Cup after Maradonna used his hand to place the ball in the net is also OK.


No, that'd be more like punting out your opposition in the final race ;)

wmcot
27th March 2008, 06:47
According to F1-Live, Ferrari have ruled out any defect with the car - meaning it's all Massa!

leopard
27th March 2008, 08:04
I said so from beginning, it's purely human error

ArrowsFA1
27th March 2008, 09:12
Let's face it. 2 purely driver related errors in 2 races does not bode well, however there are still plenty of races left to make up for those driver errors.
It's all down to how Massa responds. Regardless of any press releases he knows, and the team know, what caused his problems in both races. Ferrari's support will be important to him right now, and with the 'new' Luca era I'm not sure he has that as much as during the Todt era.

Bahrain could go one of two ways - either Felipe forgets all about his start to the season (hard to do with media speculation going on) and produces the kind of winning performances he has shown at times before; or in his efforts to make up ground he makes more errors and comes under yet more pressure.

jjanicke
27th March 2008, 17:33
His position as a man who was already in the team first with such 'designation' will drive him to such error and it humanly happens to everyone. Even an Alonso wasn't easy to avoid the error when he was teamed up in the McLaren. I think we have to admit that Alonso has the coolest head controlling emotion and still be able to deliver as such.

I would have to say the Iceman has the coolest head controlling emotion. The abscence of emotion is his greatest assest. He lets his driving do all the talking.


It's all down to how Massa responds. Regardless of any press releases he knows, and the team know, what caused his problems in both races. Ferrari's support will be important to him right now, and with the 'new' Luca era I'm not sure he has that as much as during the Todt era.

Bahrain could go one of two ways - either Felipe forgets all about his start to the season (hard to do with media speculation going on) and produces the kind of winning performances he has shown at times before; or in his efforts to make up ground he makes more errors and comes under yet more pressure.

Agreed! Massa could actual learn something from Kimi right now, just drive.

Firstgear
27th March 2008, 18:32
Bahrain could go one of two ways - either Felipe forgets all about his start to the season (hard to do with media speculation going on) and produces the kind of winning performances he has shown at times before; or in his efforts to make up ground he makes more errors and comes under yet more pressure.

You forgot option #3. He accepts his roll as #2 at Ferrari, places his car as a cushion between Kimi and the competition, and brings in 6 or 8 points for the team.

jjanicke
27th March 2008, 18:54
But where's the fun in that Firstgear? :)

I say massa should just keep his mouth shut and drive the balls off of his car.

jens
27th March 2008, 21:41
Massa seems such emotional guy that I guess it's really hard for him to accept #2 role. Remember last year. It's hard to remember any more disappointed driver than Felipe, when he was on the second or third step on the podium. Do you remember his face after last year's Brazilian Grand Prix? He looked totally sulking.

I think Felipe feels that he can match Kimi and therefore pushes too hard. As he is a great qualifier, then he might think: "Hey, I managed to beat him in quali, why not in the race?!" Also - as last year he gave a strong competition against Kimi, then it's hard to convince a driver that now you are actually not good enough under the new rules (no TC) and must be #2. It would be a very harsh psychological blow.

Two huge mistakes in two consecutive races is not a catastrophe though. It has been done in the past on a lot of occasions and even by drivers we rate as legends at the moment. But they came back from their lows and later became champions. But Massa is also in a situation, where he can't allow any more mistakes. One more spin and there would be no mercy.

Some say that Massa is like Barrichello - born number two. I disagree. Their characters seem totally different. While Barrichello accepted his No.2 role, then Massa is more like Montoya - he refuses to believe that he is not good enough to be a team leader (and actually has enough raw talent to have such belief!), which makes him crazy during a race. I guess that if Massa won't be at Ferrari next year, then it would be very hard for him to get back into a top team in the future as his reputation has fallen.

Bottom line, he might not drive in F1 in the future if he realizes that he is not good enough to become WDC and won't get a top drive... like Montoya, who probably realized that his career in F1 in the future would probably go only downhill and left in the right moment for him, having driven the whole F1 career in top teams.

Tazio
27th March 2008, 22:02
Massa seems such emotional guy that I guess it's really hard for him to accept #2 role. Remember last year. It's hard to remember any more disappointed driver than Felipe, when he was on the second or third step on the podium. Do you remember his face after last year's Brazilian Grand Prix? He looked totally sulking.

I think Felipe feels that he can match Kimi and therefore pushes too hard. As he is a great qualifier, then he might think: "Hey, I managed to beat him in quali, why not in the race?!" Also - as last year he gave a strong competition against Kimi, then it's hard to convince a driver that now you are actually not good enough under the new rules (no TC) and must be #2. It would be a very harsh psychological blow.

Two huge mistakes in two consecutive races is not a catastrophe though. It has been done in the past on a lot of occasions and even by drivers we rate as legends at the moment. But they came back from their lows and later became champions. But Massa is also in a situation, where he can't allow any more mistakes. One more spin and there would be no mercy.

Some say that Massa is like Barrichello - born number two. I disagree. Their characters seem totally different. While Barrichello accepted his No.2 role, then Massa is more like Montoya - he refuses to believe that he is not good enough to be a team leader (and actually has enough raw talent to have such belief!), which makes him crazy during a race. I guess that if Massa won't be at Ferrari next year, then it would be very hard for him to get back into a top team in the future as his reputation has fallen.

Bottom line, he might not drive in F1 in the future if he realizes that he is not good enough to become WDC and won't get a top drive... like Montoya, who probably realized that his career in F1 in the future would probably go only downhill and left in the right moment for him, having driven the whole F1 career in top teams.
THAT'S AN INTERESTING ANALYSIS!
I have a much simpler one:
Felipe needs to concentrate more on driving, and less on pune-tang ;) ;)

ten-tenths
27th March 2008, 23:57
THAT'S AN INTERESTING ANALYSIS!
I have a much simpler one:
Felipe needs to concentrate more on driving, and less on pune-tang ;) ;)

bwhahaha

leopard
28th March 2008, 07:35
yeah like snow the ice should be the coolest, the task is only to keep it work properly, the risk of playing a small mistake with ice there will be 60 cars pilled up. :D ;)

jas123f1
29th March 2008, 13:19
Yes, it's hard to believe, 2 mistakes in 2 races and 0 points.. but I think Massa will make a “come back” in Bahrain there Ferrari has a good chance to take 2 podium places. I hope he is a little bit cooler there .. :)

ArrowsFA1
1st April 2008, 10:54
Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo says Brazilian driver Felipe Massa in not under pressure despite his poor start to the 2008 season.

Massa has retired from both the Australian and Malaysian Grands Prix - from second in the second race - and speculation has already suggested the Brazilian's seat could be in danger despite having two years of his contract left.

But di Montezemolo has moved to quash all rumours, saying Ferrari have the best driver line-up in the world.

"Felipe Massa is absolutely not under any scrutiny," di Montezemolo told Gazzetta dello Sport. "In fact, we at Ferrari have the best driver pairing in the world.

"I expect a great race from Felipe in Bahrain, after his wonderful qualifying session in Malaysia."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66267

pino
1st April 2008, 10:59
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66267

You just beat me as I was going to post this :

http://www.gazzetta.it/Motori/Formula1/Primo_Piano/2008/03_Marzo/31/montezemolo.shtml

leopard
1st April 2008, 11:42
Yep the most cohesive driver pairing in the world. ;)

Knock-on
1st April 2008, 11:50
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66267

Blimey, it is serious then. When the boss comes out expressing confidence in you, then the sh*t really is heading towards the fan lol :laugh:

trumperZ06
1st April 2008, 16:23
:D Damn... that's about the worse think that could happen to Massa.

:dozey: An Italian "Vote of Confidence" from the God-Father.

;) Next, he wil get a newspaper wrapped.... FISH !!!

jjanicke
1st April 2008, 18:27
How true Knock-on.

It's tough to argue Kimi/Massa as currently the best driver lineup. But quite frankly on points and racecraft Lewis/Heikki seem better right now.

Tazio
1st April 2008, 19:14
As bad as Massa's start has been. He is racing a Ferrari this weekend that only has 1/3 of a race on it.
If he finishes p1 and Kimi 2-5, They will both have new engines for the next race
while their major competitors will be on there second race (If BMW, and Mclaren stay reliable this weekend
and aren't forced to do an engine change). they will again be facing Ferrari’s first engine with their second.
If Massa gets a good result in that race he will suddenly back in it! (The WDC hunt) That would be incredible
Highly unlikely but possible!

ioan
1st April 2008, 19:37
A certain Button should have been out of F1 and hiding in the desert given his results.
However his die hard fan finds it interesting to trash a driver that did way better in his career. :rolleyes:

Firstgear
1st April 2008, 19:42
I would've thought Massa would be on a new engine this race, seeing as he didn't finish the last one. Or do the reg's state you can only switch the engine if the reason the car didn't finish the race was due to an engine failure?

jjanicke
1st April 2008, 21:49
I would've thought Massa would be on a new engine this race, seeing as he didn't finish the last one. Or do the reg's state you can only switch the engine if the reason the car didn't finish the race was due to an engine failure?

Nope, you can swap the engine if the driver fails the finish the race due to circumstance beyond control of the team or driver. Massa should be on a fresh engine for Bahrain, unless they don't want to carry that engine forward to the next race.


2008 Sporting regulation 28.4.a: "Unless the driver fails to finish the race (see below) the engine fitted to the car at the end of the Event must remain in it until the end of the next Event. Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two Events for reasons which the technical delegate accepts as being beyond the control of the team or driver, may start the second with a different engine without a penalty being incurred."

ioan
1st April 2008, 22:00
That engine only did 1/2 race so it's a pretty sure bet for Bahrain.
However having an engine for Bahrain and the race after that might not be so safe.
Keeping the engine is the right decision.

ArrowsFA1
2nd April 2008, 09:22
A certain Button should have been out of F1 and hiding in the desert given his results.
However his die hard fan finds it interesting to trash a driver that did way better in his career. :rolleyes:
It would be interesting to see the results Massa could have produced in the Williams, Benetton/Renault, and BAR/Honda cars Button has raced :dozey: A look at his results for Sauber give a clue as to the difference racing a championship winning car makes.

leopard
2nd April 2008, 09:22
Not sure that driving without TC has prompted Massa can't easily handle the car in the opening two races or just because something related to his tradition not to finish better than fifth at Sepang.

The car ran flawlessly during the weekend of Sepang. I think it would be more wise to use the same engine rather than speculating to use the new one.

leopard
2nd April 2008, 09:27
I think so, I doubt we will see Massa as is today in the car other than Ferrari. Kimi is the more complete package of the two. :)

Knock-on
2nd April 2008, 10:20
It would be interesting to see the results Massa could have produced in the Williams, Benetton/Renault, and BAR/Honda cars Button has raced :dozey: A look at his results for Sauber give a clue as to the difference racing a championship winning car makes.

Fair points. It is difficult to make comparisons across teams though and the best comparison is always against team mates. In Buttons case, this is a driver that was competitive against MS and someone that ioan has praised for years.

Of course, now he's not at Ferrari, Rubins is a nobody and not a fair comparison whereas Massa's mistakes just prove how gifted he is :laugh:

ioan
2nd April 2008, 10:33
Fair points. It is difficult to make comparisons across teams though and the best comparison is always against team mates. In Buttons case, this is a driver that was competitive against MS and someone that ioan has praised for years.

Of course, now he's not at Ferrari, Rubins is a nobody and not a fair comparison whereas Massa's mistakes just prove how gifted he is :laugh:

Rubens is doing better than Button every time the car is difficult to drive. IMO Button is overrated by his fanbase, however I'm not asking for his head on a plate cause I'm not a Honda fan.
Question is why non-Ferrari fans have something against Felipe?!

ArrowsFA1
2nd April 2008, 10:39
Question is why non-Ferrari fans have something against Felipe?!
Aside from the fact being a Ferrari fan or not has nothing to do with my view of him, perhaps it's because Massa is overrated by his fanbase ;)

Knock-on
2nd April 2008, 10:56
Rubens is doing better than Button every time the car is difficult to drive. IMO Button is overrated by his fanbase, however I'm not asking for his head on a plate cause I'm not a Honda fan.

I think most honda fans are very happy with Buttons performance. I know I am and his results, year on year, in a poorly performing car, bear my confidence out.


Question is why non-Ferrari fans have something against Felipe?!

I have nothing against Filipe but when you blindly defend him, we like to point out the obvious. Filipe is a fast driver but is overdriving the car as he is not as good as Kimi. Ferrari need to sit him down and tell him he's number 2 and his performances will improve. He will not have to race against someone he's not got the ability to consistently beat and will help Ferrari win both titles again.

IMO, Massa is exactly the same as Rubins. Very fast but prone to overdrive the car on occassions but not WDC material.

ioan
2nd April 2008, 18:12
I think most honda fans are very happy with Buttons performance. I know I am and his results, year on year, in a poorly performing car, bear my confidence out.



I have nothing against Filipe but when you blindly defend him, we like to point out the obvious. Filipe is a fast driver but is overdriving the car as he is not as good as Kimi. Ferrari need to sit him down and tell him he's number 2 and his performances will improve. He will not have to race against someone he's not got the ability to consistently beat and will help Ferrari win both titles again.

IMO, Massa is exactly the same as Rubins. Very fast but prone to overdrive the car on occassions but not WDC material.

Let's make a list with driver on the grid that are proven WDC:
1. FA
2. KR

Wow, 2 out of 22! Not even 10%!

Let's make a list with drivers that won F1 races:

1. FA - 19 wins - 17.76%
2. KR - 15 wins - 12,9%
3. DC - 13 wins - 5,63%
4. RB - 9 wins - 3,54%
5. FM - 5 wins - 5,55%
6. LH - 5 wins - 26,32%
7. GF - 3 wins - 1.52%
8. JT - 1 win - 0.53%
9. JB - 1 win - 0.72%

Let's see only 9 out of 22! How many of the last 7 will ever become F1 WDC?

DC - don't think so, ran out of time
RB - as much as DC
FM - it may happen
LH - it may happen
GF - same as DC and RB
JT - as much of a chance as his winning percentage
JB - see jarno Trulli

I only see 2 of the race winner having chances to become WDC.

There are 13 ore racers who might or might not win a F1 race in their career, first they will have to get a seat in a top team and even that isn't enough.

You see they are all potential WDCs but realistically very few of them (going by the statistics I think it's less than 10%) will make it in the end.
So saying one isn't WDC material so he should go = 90% of the drivers on the grid should go now cause they have almost 0 chances to win the title.

Back to Buttons performance, how does he compare with Rubens and Felipe?! ;)

Tazio
2nd April 2008, 18:41
Aside from the fact being a Ferrari fan or not has nothing to do with my view of him, perhaps it's because Massa is overrated by his fanbase ;) I think that question will answer itself, and in short time!

My opinion:

I think he is going to rebound in a big way!
Of course I'm the idiot that had the nerve to say Fred is the most acomplished pilot in f1.

P.S. Opinions are worth what you pay for them ;)

Zico
2nd April 2008, 19:53
"Michael Schumacher believes Ferrari's Felipe Massa can still win the drivers' championship despite his poor start to the Formula One season.

The former world champion says Massa, who has yet to score a point, can get back to winning ways this weekend in Bahrain, where he won last year.

He said: "It's not the best of starts, but things will turn around very quickly I think in his favour.

"He is certainly still very capable of winning the championship this year."

The 26-year-old retired from the season-opening Australian Grand Prix and then spun into the gravel after starting on pole position at the last round in Malaysia.

Lewis Hamilton leads the standings with 14 points, three clear of Ferrari's world champion Kimi Raikkonen and BMW Sauber's Nick Heidfeld, but Schumacher, who is now a Ferrari adviser, thinks Massa will soon start to catch up.

He said: "Massa is very focused, knows what is going on and what he has to do. Pressure is normal in our world and I am certain he knows how to deal with it.

"He was quickest in Malaysia, and you must be very good to do this, and he was a little unfortunate later on.

"He was very strong in Bahrain last time, so there is no reason why he cannot do it again and win impressively."

Massa's slow start to the season has increased speculation about his future with the Italian team, despite still having two years left on his contract.

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo this week refuted suggestions that Renault's double world champion Fernando Alonso was being lined up to replace Massa as Raikkonen's team-mate.

"We have two great drivers, the best available in terms of the package," Schumacher said.

"If Massa wins the championship at the end of the year, nobody will care or remember about the start of the season."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7327260.stm


A confidence boosting comment.. or do you think he really believes that?

Bagwan
2nd April 2008, 20:07
"Michael Schumacher believes Ferrari's Felipe Massa can still win the drivers' championship despite his poor start to the Formula One season.

The former world champion says Massa, who has yet to score a point, can get back to winning ways this weekend in Bahrain, where he won last year.

He said: "It's not the best of starts, but things will turn around very quickly I think in his favour.

"He is certainly still very capable of winning the championship this year."

The 26-year-old retired from the season-opening Australian Grand Prix and then spun into the gravel after starting on pole position at the last round in Malaysia.

Lewis Hamilton leads the standings with 14 points, three clear of Ferrari's world champion Kimi Raikkonen and BMW Sauber's Nick Heidfeld, but Schumacher, who is now a Ferrari adviser, thinks Massa will soon start to catch up.

He said: "Massa is very focused, knows what is going on and what he has to do. Pressure is normal in our world and I am certain he knows how to deal with it.

"He was quickest in Malaysia, and you must be very good to do this, and he was a little unfortunate later on.

"He was very strong in Bahrain last time, so there is no reason why he cannot do it again and win impressively."

Massa's slow start to the season has increased speculation about his future with the Italian team, despite still having two years left on his contract.

Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo this week refuted suggestions that Renault's double world champion Fernando Alonso was being lined up to replace Massa as Raikkonen's team-mate.

"We have two great drivers, the best available in terms of the package," Schumacher said.

"If Massa wins the championship at the end of the year, nobody will care or remember about the start of the season."



http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7327260.stm


A confidence boosting comment.. or do you think he really believes that?


Domenicalli is out again saying the ECU has "secrets" at the same time , so I think they think that that may have something to do with how Felipe did in the first 2 .

Zico
2nd April 2008, 20:36
Domenicalli is out again saying the ECU has "secrets" at the same time , so I think they think that that may have something to do with how Felipe did in the first 2 .

Like a bluetooth connected overide? ;)

I really dont buy into the trick ECU theory, I used to work in the IC (Computer chip) manufacturing industry so I understand a fair bit about algorithms and hidden paths within electronic devices. Several years ago we found hidden pathways in a new type of mobile phone chips we were producing, we found the microphone could be switched on by the network provider (most likely) for covert listening even while the phone was switched off, simply by analyzing the data from the diagnostic probe machines.
So Im pretty sure that if the scrutineering dept are worth their salt they will be similarly equipped to ensure there is no possibility of this happening and I really dont think McLaren would be stupid enough to attempt such an easily tracable thing.

Bagwan
2nd April 2008, 20:55
I have no idea what or how it was done , but Ferrari sound more confident , so perhaps they have figured a few of those "secrets" .

Zico
2nd April 2008, 21:13
I have no idea what or how it was done , but Ferrari sound more confident , so perhaps they have figured a few of those "secrets" .

I'll believe it when I see it..
As far as I can see... the only possible thing that McLaren could do with the ECU is sabotage it, as has been suggested with regards to Kimi's retirement where his reserve tanks, fuelpump failled to operate, which brought about the theory of a "faulty" ECU intentionally supplied to the Red team banking on Ferrari not testing it thoroughly.?

Re- Massa, I reckon his manually chosen adjustable diff setting could have been the real cause for the sudden spin out.

Bagwan
2nd April 2008, 21:27
I understood the one issue was that they were not receiving warnings about high temperatures , and not getting warned of this they didn't act to counter , and parts began to fail .
As to the spin out , he may have run afoul of the 90second delay between maps at the start . This may have been true of the second spin as well , as he turned down the wick near the end .

Zico
2nd April 2008, 21:41
I understood the one issue was that they were not receiving warnings about high temperatures , and not getting warned of this they didn't act to counter , and parts began to fail .
As to the spin out , he may have run afoul of the 90second delay between maps at the start . This may have been true of the second spin as well , as he turned down the wick near the end .

Yeah, I was just reading the "Mapping" thread on the subject you speak off as you replied.. its certainly quite possible.
This TAG supplied ECU is the stupidest decision the FIA have made for a while.. even if McLaren are innocent they will continue to be viewed with suspicion, with fingers being pointed at them after every electrical problem encountered by Ferrari for the forseeable future..

airshifter
2nd April 2008, 21:52
Fair points. It is difficult to make comparisons across teams though and the best comparison is always against team mates. In Buttons case, this is a driver that was competitive against MS and someone that ioan has praised for years.

Of course, now he's not at Ferrari, Rubins is a nobody and not a fair comparison whereas Massa's mistakes just prove how gifted he is :laugh:

Great comparison! :laugh:

I also agree with your later point that Rubens and Massa are similar. I could probably add DC, Button and some others to that list. All drivers very capable on the right day, in the right car, at the right track. All just as capable of being beaten by lesser drivers, in lesser cars, on that days track.

Even the best drivers overdrive at times. Lewis lost a WDC as a result of it last year, Kimi blew it in Australia this year. The lesser drivers do it much more often, and I think this is what happens to Massa.

Knock-on
2nd April 2008, 22:04
Yeah, I was just reading the "Mapping" thread on the subject you speak off as you replied.. its certainly quite possible.
This TAG supplied ECU is the stupidest decision the FIA have made for a while.. even if McLaren are innocent they will continue to be viewed with suspicion, with fingers being pointed at them after every electrical problem encountered by Ferrari for the forseeable future..

Is there any finger pointing apart from the Tifosi?

As far as I know, Ferrari have attributed their failures to other things and have not said it was anything to do with the ECU.

Then we have the conspiracy theorists that claim McLaren have "written" in code that allows them to influence other teams without explaining how they have done this without supplying any code for the devices :laugh:

Perhaps it is the first ECU developed using ESP :p :

Get real guys. You sound desperate LOL

Zico
2nd April 2008, 22:10
Get real guys. You sound desperate LOL

Why are you quoting my post? .. read back at my previous ones, thats what Im saying too dude!

Knock-on
2nd April 2008, 22:22
Why are you quoting my post? .. read back at my previous ones, thats what Im saying too dude!

I was quoting it as the most recent relevant post but you are ones that mention things such as even if McLaren are innocent etc, etc. The whole tone is built around accusation.

In your previous ones, you mention theories on how McLaren may have intentionally sabotaged a ECU designated for Ferrari, as if they were in charge of distribution of the ECU's :laugh:

It really is a load of old fanny in my opinion and people (I'm not saying you) just need some sort of conspiracy theory to explain away the obvious explanation; Ferrari had mechanical issues with the heat and their drivers made mistakes.

Zico
2nd April 2008, 23:18
I was quoting it as the most recent relevant post but you are ones that mention things such as even if McLaren are innocent etc, etc. The whole tone is built around accusation.

Sorry dude but Im not tiffosi and I dont believe all these conspiracy theories, so if the tone came across that way, it wasnt intended.


In your previous ones, you mention theories on how McLaren may have intentionally sabotaged a ECU designated for Ferrari, as if they were in charge of distribution of the ECU's :laugh:

Nope, This is exactly what I said..


As far as I can see... the only possible thing that McLaren could do with the ECU is sabotage it

To say something is possible is very different from saying they may have done it.. and I was referring to McLaren as TAG/McLaren collectively as the Tiffosi view the situation, Im sure you knew that anyway.

I cant be arsed arguing about tones or maybes. Im just here to discuss F1 issues without trying to wind people up, I suggest you do the same..

Tazio
3rd April 2008, 00:27
Looks like I got here at a good time!
Mike thinks there is a good chance that Massa will dominate this weekend.
I picked Kimi to win I wouldn’t want to bet against my pick but What the heck.
I will take Massa to finish ahead of any other single pilot in the field with two exceptions. SIG bet.
The SIG has to respectfully state the winner's proposal. Like the one I lost to Valve.
Pick any driver by Thurs 9pm pacific coast daylight savings time.
The proposition is the driver that is classified the highest in the final result is the winner!
If I lose to Kimi I'll at least be happy for Ferrari, and a direct hit on my pickems.
I won't accept a bet against Heikki or Fred (Which I shouldn't have to worry about!)
The duration of the loser having to use SIG is until the end of the next race

Tazio
3rd April 2008, 16:59
Looks like I got here at a good time!
Mike thinks there is a good chance that Massa will dominate this weekend.
I picked Kimi to win I wouldn’t want to bet against my pick but What the heck.
I will take Massa to finish ahead of any other single pilot in the field with two exceptions. SIG bet.
The SIG has to respectfully state the winner's proposal. Like the one I lost to Valve.
Pick any driver by Thurs 9pm pacific coast daylight savings time.
The proposition is the driver that is classified the highest in the final result is the winner!
If I lose to Kimi I'll at least be happy for Ferrari, and a direct hit on my pickems.
I won't accept a bet against Heikki or Fred (Which I shouldn't have to worry about!)
The duration of the loser having to use SIG is until the end of the next raceAs Ted Knight said to Rodney Dangerfield:
"Well! Were waiting!"
Deadline extended to Friday High Noon PDST
:rotflmao:

jens
3rd April 2008, 21:28
Massa is so popular that he has even two simultaneous threads. :D Let's give him some rest from criticism for a moment before the next GP. :)

Again here are a lot of comparisons between FM and RB. Well, I actually think Felipe has more raw pace than Rubens. With TC FM definetely looked a more competitive driver (had come closer to WDC than Rubens had ever been). However, without TC FM seems to make more mistakes than RB and the comparison gets harder... future will tell.

jjanicke
4th April 2008, 00:14
Jens, unlike rubens massa hasn't been asked to pull over to let scummy by for wins, nor was rubens ever the team incumbent with a new teammate, nor was rubens ever considered equal by his team to his teammate.

Tazio
4th April 2008, 02:39
Jens, unlike rubens massa hasn't been asked to pull over to let scummy by for wins, nor was rubens ever the team incumbent with a new teammate, nor was rubens ever considered equal by his team to his teammate.Yes senior I think Massa he # 2 to the great Mike who
was only overthrown by who is currently the most acomplished Pilot of all F1
One Fernando Enriqui aloisis, con pinchy, arnaldo,quinonas, de la puta, Azule, de la baca chicherones, rodrigo, de fuego, poncho, La lina, El espano loco, tio malo leche Alonzo! I thi-ink! senior!
Hasta en fuego(see you on fire, or see you in hell) Tazio

ioan
4th April 2008, 12:34
Well well, look who's started well the Bahrain GP week end!
:eek: Shock horror, it's Felipe, being fast, again! He certainly is no good.
BTW, who went out of the track? His team mate, sack him, he can't drive without TC! :p :

SGWilko
4th April 2008, 12:37
Well well, look who's started well the Bahrain GP week end!
:eek: Shock horror, it's Felipe, being fast, again! He certainly is no good.
BTW, who went out of the track? His team mate, sack him, he can't drive without TC! :p :

It's finding the limits in practice that are a GOOD thing, not during the race......

Being fast when there are no points on offer is of no use. It's clearly a pressure thing - no pressure and he is fine, pile it on, and he cracks up.

ArrowsFA1
4th April 2008, 12:38
Well well, look who's started well the Bahrain GP week end!
:eek: Shock horror, it's Felipe, being fast, again! He certainly is no good.
It's a good start, but no surprise. The Ferraris are quick as is Felipe. I don't think that has ever been in question. If he sticks it on pole and wins the race (we've seen he is capable of that on occasion) he will have gone some way to making up for his early season errors.

SGWilko
4th April 2008, 12:39
One Fernando Enriqui aloisis, con pinchy, arnaldo,quinonas, de la puta, Azule, de la baca chicherones, rodrigo, de fuego, poncho, La lina, El espano loco, tio malo leche Alonzo! I thi-ink! senior!


Sounds like a Rolf Harris lyric... :laugh:

ioan
4th April 2008, 12:56
It's finding the limits in practice that are a GOOD thing, not during the race......

:rolleyes: It was a joke (hint: see smiley) as I'm not one of those that like throwing out drivers because of a failure or two.

Tazio
4th April 2008, 13:03
Jens, unlike rubens massa hasn't been asked to pull over to let scummy by for wins, nor was rubens ever the team incumbent with a new teammate, nor was rubens ever considered equal by his team to his teammate.
Rubens has been a career journeyman. In the course of a career as long as Rubens' I find it difficut to believe that the exposer that he has had throughout his career he has underwhelmed a lot of prospective employers he has had problems with the evolution of the cars. Perhaps in another Era he could have been Fangio? He has problems with set up. Left foot braking almost drove him into retirement. I do agree that when the Ferrari suited him
he lost alot of oportunity to beat Mike straight up. And there were times he outqualified Mike was faster all weekend, But to Mikes credit he did the little things consistantly better. In, and out laps. The race at Indy when he smoked Mike all weekend Ralf breaks his back long SC period, and when they did restart Mike jumped him big time, only to get reeled in. and held off a determined RB that was very interested in passing. Why was it that rubens always had one set of bad stones every race. At least I heard that a lot from the seat next to Mike in the interview room. I would never say this when I was a schuhead. This is where I find it hard to compare RBtoFM The tire rules have changed If FM likes the rubber so does KR Rubens raced in the days when your scruffs were your babys. Scruffs are only used now if you waste tires in quali, with some exceptions . Mike had first pick on alot of things not the least of which were the stones.
BTW I still can't believe that I cant get a bet against FM the one i referred too on this thread. No one will take KR(possibly tired lump) LH, or anyone else that makes it to the checkered flag. with my exceptions HK because I can't pull against him, in his battle with LH or Fred He's my pet driver!
Cheers

ioan
4th April 2008, 14:25
Looks like Lewy can't drive without TC! Not fast enough, loses car and destroys it!
They should replace him with Ide! :p :

SGWilko
4th April 2008, 14:27
Looks like Lewy can't drive without TC! Not fast enough, loses car and destroys it!
They should replace him with Ide! :p :

Just practice, remember. If this were the race, you could have a pop....

HenryM
4th April 2008, 14:47
lewis just make the same mistake in this practice... and massa did a great job keeping 0.9s away from kimi.

ioan
4th April 2008, 14:52
Just practice, remember. If this were the race, you could have a pop....

Yeah yeah, say what you want we all saw him lose the car under acceleration. I tell you he is only average.

jens
4th April 2008, 15:25
Jens, unlike rubens massa hasn't been asked to pull over to let scummy by for wins, nor was rubens ever the team incumbent with a new teammate, nor was rubens ever considered equal by his team to his teammate.

As far as I remember, then Massa pulled over in Japan in 2006. :)

555-04Q2
4th April 2008, 16:41
Just practice, remember. If this were the race, you could have a pop....

I like Lewis, but I disagree with you. Doesnt matter if you lose it during practice, quali or the race. Lack of TC can catch you out at any time. Its easier to lose concentration during a 90 minute race than during a short stint during practice.

SGWilko
4th April 2008, 16:53
I like Lewis, but I disagree with you. Doesnt matter if you lose it during practice, quali or the race. Lack of TC can catch you out at any time. Its easier to lose concentration during a 90 minute race than during a short stint during practice.

Fair point, yes, it is easier to lose concentration in the race. But you have to find the limits of the car somehow, and push the boundaries to find where your limits are.

My point was that practice is where you do this, not while racing for points.

As you say, the loss of TC has made making a mistake easier, the trick is to learn where the mistakes are most likely to be made....

Plus, Lewis now seems to have a team mate that can challenge him on a regular basis, so he is trying that much harder.

Remember, to finish first in F1, first you have to finish. And the important time to be making the finish line is in the race...........

555-04Q2
4th April 2008, 16:54
Fair point, yes, it is easier to lose concentration in the race. But you have to find the limits of the car somehow, and push the boundaries to find where your limits are.

My point was that practice is where you do this, not while racing for points.

As you say, the loss of TC has made making a mistake easier, the trick is to learn where the mistakes are most likely to be made....

Plus, Lewis now seems to have a team mate that can challenge him on a regular basis, so he is trying that much harder.

Remember, to finish first in F1, first you have to finish. And the important time to be making the finish line is in the race...........

:up:

555-04Q2
4th April 2008, 16:56
P.S. Massa lost it just before Kimi was going to pit so he was probably also starting to push a bit to close the gap before his stop. Seems pushing it has now caught out at least two "top" drivers. Will be intersting to see who else has a moment during the rest of 2008.

I think we can agree that the banning of TC has made things a bit more interesting.

SGWilko
4th April 2008, 16:57
Fair point, yes, it is easier to lose concentration in the race. But you have to find the limits of the car somehow, and push the boundaries to find where your limits are.

My point was that practice is where you do this, not while racing for points.

As you say, the loss of TC has made making a mistake easier, the trick is to learn where the mistakes are most likely to be made....

Plus, Lewis now seems to have a team mate that can challenge him on a regular basis, so he is trying that much harder.

Remember, to finish first in F1, first you have to finish. And the important time to be making the finish line is in the race...........

A nice little quote on Autosport.... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66336

SGWilko
4th April 2008, 17:03
I think we can agree that the banning of TC has made things a bit more interesting.

We most certainly can. Paying for kinky sex aside, I would say the removal of TC was one of S&Max's better decisions...... ;)

Tazio
4th April 2008, 21:15
ld like to respectfully suggest it was a rookie mistake!
A nice little quote on Autosport.... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66336

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ioan
4th April 2008, 22:55
ld like to respectfully suggest it was a rookie mistake!
A nice little quote on Autosport.... http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66336

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They all make mistakes, however a few of them are whiter than white and so on!

Kimi made 2 mistakes in the first race before the engine gave up. All was brushed under the carpet.
Massa made one mistake in the first race, he's labeled as average, they were calling for him to be fired!
Hamy makes a mistake and destroys the car while throwing it into the wall, they say he was looking for the limit!

It is clear that some are more equal than the others in the eyes of the objective F1 fan! ;)

Tazio
5th April 2008, 00:36
It is clear that some are more equal than the others in the eyes of the objective F1 fan! ;) Did you get that line from "The Planet of The Apes" :p :

ShiftingGears
5th April 2008, 05:47
Just practice, remember. If this were the race, you could have a pop....

Yep. Schumacher spun plenty of times throughout practice sessions. What a talentless hack that guy was!

Tazio
5th April 2008, 07:19
Just practice, remember. If this were the race, you could have a pop....No spare car remember? I'm sure they can restore it to 99.9% of its previous condition. It could have been much worse.
My theory is that he wanted to best HK's time a little to badly. If that is the case. Very stupid!

Daniel
5th April 2008, 10:23
I think you'll see Lewis replaced before the next event. Remember you heard it here first!!!!

Tazio
5th April 2008, 10:28
I think you'll see Lewis replaced before the next event. Remember you heard it here first!!!!Dude! Hold the phone?
What's the skinny! How many guesses do I get?

Knock-on
6th April 2008, 13:15
Lots of drivers have offs in practice. It's expected.

What matters is results and it looks like Ferrari have light fuelled Massa to get him on pole and I assume to bunch things up for a heavy fuelled Kimi. The start of a strategy to make Kimi WDC again :) Looks like a Rubins / Schumy tactic.

Well, he failed to get pole so it might back fire :D

Daniel
6th April 2008, 15:07
and Felipe chokes his way to victory.

Can this thread be closed off now? I'm off to start a thread about how Lewis always drives into the back of other cars......

F1boat
6th April 2008, 15:26
Great race for Massa and Ferrari and now the championship seems very open.

VkmSpouge
6th April 2008, 15:28
Massa was faultless this weekend. Well done.

HenryM
6th April 2008, 16:03
Lots of drivers have offs in practice. It's expected.

What matters is results and it looks like Ferrari have light fuelled Massa to get him on pole and I assume to bunch things up for a heavy fuelled Kimi. The start of a strategy to make Kimi WDC again :) Looks like a Rubins / Schumy tactic.

Well, he failed to get pole so it might back fire :D

massa was heavier all the race, and in q3 to.. take kubicas 1st place in the start, so...

ten-tenths
6th April 2008, 16:12
good for massa. i have a feeling he will be tough to beat the next couple of races.

ioan
6th April 2008, 16:56
Did you get that line from "The Planet of The Apes" :p :

Yeah, the planet where Lewis was racing today, as per his comments from last season! :D

ioan
6th April 2008, 16:57
I think you'll see Lewis replaced before the next event. Remember you heard it here first!!!!

This was a very insightful comment! Where do you keep your crystal ball?!

ioan
6th April 2008, 16:59
Lots of drivers have offs in practice. It's expected.

What matters is results and it looks like Ferrari have light fuelled Massa to get him on pole and I assume to bunch things up for a heavy fuelled Kimi. The start of a strategy to make Kimi WDC again :) Looks like a Rubins / Schumy tactic.

Well, he failed to get pole so it might back fire :D

Load of bullcrap man, load of bullcrap as always.
Show yourself, don't hide! :D

Bradley
6th April 2008, 19:17
I want to hear Massa's excuse!!


Can we get Mike to take over Massa's seat for a few races?
Good Night!

I must admit that the guy they chose to replace Massa, was impressive this weekend in Bahrein :s mokin:

Well done Felipe !!

markabilly
6th April 2008, 21:32
Originally Posted by Tazio, also after the Malaysian GP http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=447878#post447878)
"Can we get Mike to take over Massa's seat for a few races?
Good Night! "

looks like he is losing interest in f1


Mike seems to have found himself something else to spend his time on, turning 1 min 58 sec laps on the ducati motogp bike, where the lap record is about 1.50.


8 secs off.....that is awful fast, considering his lack of experience on a racing bike


Now that is not a world champion time, but there are riders in motogp that would struggle to get down to 1.52 to 1.54 ( or within two seconds or so)


and the MS time would be within ten percent of the fastest, perhaps enough to make the back of the grid.


Opps i forgot this is a f1 thread............... :eek:

osg
6th April 2008, 21:38
Massa was faultless this weekend. Well done.

+1.

Still the #2 though.

Knock-on
7th April 2008, 14:29
massa was heavier all the race, and in q3 to.. take kubicas 1st place in the start, so...

Yep, it was a surprise for me as well. Massa had a great weekend.

However, as a Swallow, not a Summer makes then a victory, not a Championship results :)

Nobody has said that Massa is not a fast driver. I maintain that like Rubins, on his day is unbeatable. It's just that he tends to overdrive his ability and does not have the consistency.

Good victory this weekend but 1 performance out of 3 races is just not good enough and reflects his position behind Kimi. Lets see what the situation is in another 3 meetings :)

555-04Q2
7th April 2008, 18:54
Great drive from Felipe :up: Dominated the whole weekend in style. Almost faultless. Now for a few more good weekends and a shot at the WDC :)

Tazio
7th April 2008, 20:12
Originally Posted by Tazio, also after the Malaysian GP http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=447878#post447878)
"Can we get Mike to take over Massa's seat for a few races?
Good Night! "

looks like he is losing interest in f1


Mike seems to have found himself something else to spend his time on, turning 1 min 58 sec laps on the ducati motogp bike, where the lap record is about 1.50.


8 secs off.....that is awful fast, considering his lack of experience on a racing bike


Now that is not a world champion time, but there are riders in motogp that would struggle to get down to 1.52 to 1.54 ( or within two seconds or so)


and the MS time would be within ten percent of the fastest, perhaps enough to make the back of the grid.


Opps i forgot this is a f1 thread............... :eek:
But Hamilton's problem with the launch, wasn't that just a case of "premature flic-uation" :confused:

I'm propsing a theory that his little shunt in practice might have just unnerved him a tiny bit. I think when asked about that incident it would be more theraputic to have revealled the truth by saying something like" Dude! I just got a litlle to far up on the curb. lost traction ans scared the cr@p out of myself when I hit. I'll suck it up though, and it shouldn't affect my game.
I take his dimissive comment that went something like: "I'm fine, sorry to the crew, but it doesnt affect me I just get in and drive!" as being in abit of denial! JMHO!!!!!

jens
7th April 2008, 21:56
I'm off to start a thread about how Lewis always drives into the back of other cars......

:laugh: That thread would open a can of worms!

Tazio
7th April 2008, 22:33
I must admit that the guy they chose to replace Massa, was impressive this weekend in Bahrein :s mokin:

Well done Felipe !!
The make up job was flawless :p :

[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by Tazio after Malaysia! and before tele practice Fri :p :

"Looks like I got here at a good time!
Mike thinks there is a good chance that Massa will dominate this weekend.
I picked Kimi to win I wouldn’t want to bet against my pick but What the heck.
I will take Massa to finish ahead of any other single pilot in the field SIG bet.

The proposition is the driver that is classified the highest in the final result is the winner!
If I lose to Kimi I'll at least be happy for Ferrari, and a direct hit on my pickems.

The duration of the loser having to use SIG is until the end of the next race!![/QUOTE]

I went on to offer same wager not once but two more times. So I think it's fair to say that by the first televied Fri. some of us were sitting on our hands While others were willing to back their Play ;)

jjanicke
7th April 2008, 23:12
LOL

Perhaps some of the "talkers" were doing just that "talking".