McLaren duo penalised 5 grid places each for Heidfield block..

[Zico]

McLaren duo Lewis Hamilton and Heikki Kovalainen have been penalised five grid places for impeding rivals during qualifying at the Malaysian Grand Prix.

The pair had been on the second row but Hamilton will now start in ninth, one place behind his Finnish team-mate.

After qualifying they were summoned by the stewards to answer complaints they held others up in the last session.

BMW Sauber's Nick Heidfeld and Renault driver Fernando Alonso said they were impeded on their flying laps in Sepang.

During the final session of qualifying in Sepang, when 10 drivers go all out for the top grid positions, both Heidfeld and Alonso felt they had been slowed by the McLarens.

Kovalainen and Hamilton, who had finished third and fourth respectively, had completed their fast laps and were slowing down to conserve fuel.

But Heidfeld complained their actions had cost him vital seconds.

"Most of the cars were already very slow when I was on my flying lap, just like they were parked on the circuit," he said.




"Both of the McLarens were in front at turn four, in the middle of the racing line.

"I just couldn't drive on the line that I wanted and, even more importantly, I could not brake where I wanted to.

"If you look at the times, they were very, very close - I lost two tenths and I think that would have put me third."

Heidfeld had complained to his team on the radio.

The others were going slowly, and that affected me a bit, which is a shame

Renault driver Fernando Alonso

"From my point of view, it was not correct what they did," he said.

Alonso, who left McLaren after a turbulent season to rejoin Renault, also felt he was denied a quick lap by the McLarens.

"I could have done better in Q3 this afternoon as I was with Heidfeld on a fast lap while the others were going slowly, and that affected me a bit, which is a shame," the double world champion said.

However, the McLaren team insisted they had done all they could to make sure their rivals were able to cleanly complete their flying laps.

"We informed our drivers that there were people trying to do their flying laps," chief executive Martin Whitmarsh had said before the punishment was announced.

"There was congestion at one part of the circuit with six cars trying to go into one corner.

"They did all they could to squeeze over to allow Nick and Fernando to do their quick laps.

"I don't think we impaired Nick but I can understand visually if you have got all of those cars and you are trying to do a quick lap it is not something you are going to be comfortable or happy with."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7309337.stm

Alonso twists the knife too? Stroll in the park for the Ferraris then.. Still, will be interesting to see how Lewis and Heiki cope from so far back...

[DimitraF1]

i hope for dry race..massa cannot stay for long in a wet truck! :s

[ozrevhead]

If both McLarens hadnt held up both Nick and Fernando there would be no knife to twist Zico

I think its quite a dangerouse thing to do to be honest

pushishment fits the crime IMHO

[Zico]

If both McLarens hadnt held up both Nick and Fernando there would be no knife to twist Zico

I think its quite a dangerouse thing to do to be honest

pushishment fits the crime IMHO

I dont dissagree with you.

I didnt see the holding up fernando incident and as he hadnt mentioned anything about it initially in his post qualifying interview so I was a bit surprised..

Rain + no traction control? should be interesting !

[Nikki Katz]

Yeah, that was a pretty stupid move. I'm no fan of penalties being arbitrarily handed out to McLaren, but this one seems totally justified.
To be honest, I think that so long as they don't break down (or spin off, which is less likely if they're not involved in any battles) then the Ferraris are going to walk it anyway. They probably are light, but they were much faster than everyone else. Plus, assuming he gets off the grid, the rest of the pack will probably end up stuck behind Trulli until he pits.

[Robinho]

difficult one, i can understand the punishment, and it seems quite fair from what i saw, Heidfield especially seemed to have to weave between several cars up to one corner (turn 3?). however i can't see why only the McLarens were handed the punishment, it seems to me that all the cars who were dawdling round, were at least a distraction, at worst really dangerous and i'd haul them all yup in front of the stewards and give them all a penalty/fine and make sure that everyone's in laps were contrained to 110-120% of the drivers fastest lap.

to just pull up McLaren for this one seems rather excessive IMO, however i do agree they should be puished in this case, just not only them

[mstillhere]

Yeah, that was a pretty stupid move. I'm no fan of penalties being arbitrarily handed out to McLaren, but this one seems totally justified.
To be honest, I think that so long as they don't break down (or spin off, which is less likely if they're not involved in any battles) then the Ferraris are going to walk it anyway. They probably are light, but they were much faster than everyone else. Plus, assuming he gets off the grid, the rest of the pack will probably end up stuck behind Trulli until he pits.

Something similar to da that was done last year in Brazil by Hamilton. He "happened" to be in Kimi's way during his final run. However, Kimi did not officially complain and Hamilton was not penalized.

[VkmSpouge]

I think the punishment was completely fair to dock both Lewis Hamilton and Heikki Kovalainen for holding up Heidfeld and Alonso. However the FIA need to sort the third qualifying session. There were far too many cars travelling far too slowly when there were still cars out on hot laps. It is very dangerous. While it was the McLaren's today it could easily be someone else in Bahrain. Something should be done to stop it.

[Roamy]

Well no question that this pair in dense. But this is another bull**** rule by Mosely with dictates the cars should conserve all the fuel they can. We need to get the "Gay" out of F1 and that be Mosely. Next you are going to have someone going 300k and even being on the outside of the line, someone is going to get T Boned soon. Damn if Stewart is a half wit what does this make Mosely - Where in the hell is Nikki Lauda!!

[Nikki Katz]

difficult one, i can understand the punishment, and it seems quite fair from what i saw, Heidfield especially seemed to have to weave between several cars up to one corner (turn 3?). however i can't see why only the McLarens were handed the punishment, it seems to me that all the cars who were dawdling round, were at least a distraction, at worst really dangerous and i'd haul them all yup in front of the stewards and give them all a penalty/fine and make sure that everyone's in laps were contrained to 110-120% of the drivers fastest lap.

to just pull up McLaren for this one seems rather excessive IMO, however i do agree they should be puished in this case, just not only them
Kubica, Raikkonen and Massa were all on shot as being very slow while others were still qualifying, and I believe that Heidfeld or Alonso said that there was a 4th car doing the same. But they were all off the racing line, whereas the McLarens kept to theirs. The shot of Heidfeld overtaking the McLarens looked pretty scary as with Kubica on the other side of the track at the back, they were pretty much 3-abrest.
But admittedly that might need to be looked at, the McLarens certainly weren't the only drivers being stupidly slow.

[Robinho]

i agree Nikki, to me the issue isn't where they were on the track, but the stupid speed they were doing, there was probably a potential 150mph closing speed and that could have been a recipe for a massive and dangerous accident, and regardless of being on the line or not then cars hanging around that close to a flat out qualifier is a massive distraction.

don't get me worong, i think the Macca's are right to be punished, but i think there are a couple of others out there who have been very lucky to escape the same punishment

[janneppi]

Kimi and Massa were slow that's for sure but both stayed clear off the racing line and weren't bothering Heidi or Alonso in the corners. Kubica was on the other side of the track than McLarens and and wasn't bothering the two who were on a fast lap, or else Alonso would have complained about him too.

[maximilian]

McLaren got penalized because they are McLaren. Traffic is a fact of life in qualifying, and you can't blame a team for slowing down to try and work with an idiotic refueling rule.

Why were no other drivers/teams penalized for slowing down? Because they aren't competing with Ferrari for the world championship. It's just the first 2008 installment of the ongoing bias towards Ferrari, exercised by the people within, who are already panicking that Ferrari scored a mere 1 point in the first race.

[SteveA]

Why were no other drivers/teams penalized for slowing down?

Because they weren't doing it on the racing line.

[SGWilko]

McLaren got penalized because they are McLaren.

Cobblers, they were very rightly penalised for being (intended or not) on the racing line travelling at a snails pace.
Traffic is a fact of life in qualifying, and you can't blame a team for slowing down to try and work with an idiotic refueling rule. Traffic is a fact of life due to these numpty rules, but why make a dodgy situation more dangerous. STAY OFF THE RACING LINE IF YOU ARE NOT RACING - Simple!


Why were no other drivers/teams penalized for slowing down? Because they aren't competing with Ferrari for the world championship. It's just the first 2008 installment of the ongoing bias towards Ferrari, exercised by the people within, who are already panicking that Ferrari scored a mere 1 point in the first race.
Other teams drivers' had the wherewithal to move out the way. No Bias, just Ferrari were off the racing line, well out of the way. Nuff said.

[maximilian]

Wait and see by the end of the season, how many times McLaren are penalized for "something" and how many times Ferrari... :-)

[truefan72]

difficult one, i can understand the punishment, and it seems quite fair from what i saw, Heidfield especially seemed to have to weave between several cars up to one corner (turn 3?). however i can't see why only the McLarens were handed the punishment, it seems to me that all the cars who were dawdling round, were at least a distraction, at worst really dangerous and i'd haul them all yup in front of the stewards and give them all a penalty/fine and make sure that everyone's in laps were contrained to 110-120% of the drivers fastest lap.

to just pull up McLaren for this one seems rather excessive IMO, however i do agree they should be puished in this case, just not only them

agreed


Kubica, Raikkonen and Massa were all on shot as being very slow while others were still qualifying, and I believe that Heidfeld or Alonso said that there was a 4th car doing the same. But they were all off the racing line, whereas the McLarens kept to theirs. The shot of Heidfeld overtaking the McLarens looked pretty scary as with Kubica on the other side of the track at the back, they were pretty much 3-abrest.
But admittedly that might need to be looked at, the McLarens certainly weren't the only drivers being stupidly slow.

that too

I really don't have a problem with the fine excpet that there were several other cars out there going at snails pace as well. LH and HK could have easlily said that they abortered their final lap becuase of traffic ahead.

Alos the notion of the racing line is actually subjective rather than an actual factual matter. Who's to say that the other side of the track isn't a prefered racing line to others.

Either they should have all been penalised ( my opinion) or no one should have been penalised.

It would have been great to see 1-5 all penalised 5 grid spots and a proper race ensue. Also it would have detered anyone from pulling that stunt off in the future. The whole point of Q3 was that they calculated their fuel strategy properly, so they should factor that last in-lap as well under an appropriate speed.

[janneppi]

Alos the notion of the racing line is actually subjective rather than an actual factual matter. Who's to say that the other side of the track isn't a prefered racing line to others.

You're joking, right? :)
No driver on the grid uses a different line than others in a corner like that, first it is the fastest way to drive a corner, second, that's the clean line.

[DimitraF1]

maximilian if mclaren block other drivers and punished and ferrari dont block that dont mean fia is not fair!!! get over it

[DimitraF1]

to truefan72

2 mclarens stay on the RACING LINE!!!
the other drivers including ferraris take the other line outside of the racing line

[Marbles]

Racing line or not, if a driver on a hot lap catches these slow pokes entering, in or exiting a corner at these wildly differing speeds then his lap is screwed. Never mind the danger factor.

A bit of bad timing and poor judgement by the McLaren drivers but you'll see more offenders before the season ends if this fuel strategy keeps up.

[maximilian]

It's a matter of unfortunate timing, if anything. If there is any PROOF of deliberate infraction, then a penalty may be appropriate, but even then it should not be a potentially world championship deciding 5 grid positions, but a warning, probation, or fine. I am tired of these artificial positional penalties that greatly affect the outcome of the race results.

[Easy Drifter]

I haven't seen this mess but on 99% of the corners you are going to on the racing line at some point. Enterance, middle or exit you will be on the line at some point. There are a few turns with 2 fast lines. Turn 2 at Mosport is one. There is a very fast outside line, albeit very scary. If someone is using it and the normal fast line is being used it is impossible to get out of the way of either car, let alone both!

[janneppi]

Easy drifter, both Maccas, epecially Kovalainen were close spot where Heidfeld was going to be braking, he dove in front of Kovalainen and slammed on the brakes immediatly. I didn't see Alonso's corner entry. Hamilton managed to move over him but Kovalainen didn't have time anymore as Alonso was pretty close by then.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlekGnFZSsQ
Watch it here until it's gone :)

[F1boat]

Weird punishment, but F1 is getting weirder and weirder these days.

[mstillhere]

Wait and see by the end of the season, how many times McLaren are penalized for "something" and how many times Ferrari... :-)

I think you are a trouble maker

[pino]

I think you are a trouble maker

Keep personal comments/attack off here...thank You !

[yodasarmpit]

Both appeared to be on the established racing line, which would have cost Heidfeld some time.
By Hamilton's reaction (swerving off the line after Heidfeld passed) it looks like he was unaware there was anyone else on a fast lap, though I maybe wrong.

[mstillhere]

I think you are a trouble maker

No personal offense intended. If I did I apologize

[Tazio]

Hamilton could have been lost in thought!
Contemplating kissing Irvine :)
http://www.f1technical.net/news/8566

[ioan]

It's a matter of unfortunate timing, if anything. If there is any PROOF of deliberate infraction, then a penalty may be appropriate, but even then it should not be a potentially world championship deciding 5 grid positions, but a warning, probation, or fine. I am tired of these artificial positional penalties that greatly affect the outcome of the race results.

I take it that you are new to F1!
Try to catch up with reality, take a look to some races in the last few years.

And BTW, rules are rules for everybody, and should be so even for Lewy.

[Valve Bounce]

Wait and see by the end of the season, how many times McLaren are penalized for "something" and how many times Ferrari... :-)

This is total and unmittigated nonsense. If you took the time to read the preceding posts, and watch the video links provided in the race thread, you will see that both McLarens were going together very slowly on the racing line. Nick Heidfeld had to go off the racing line and then come back onto it on his hot lap.

As others here mentioned, this was a dangerous situation created by the two McLaren drivers at that time. If other drivers did the same and held somebody up on their hot lap, then they too should have been penalised had there been a complaint.

Ferrari had absolutely nothing to do with this and your muck stirring is just nonsense.

[ioan]

Wait and see by the end of the season, how many times McLaren are penalized for "something" and how many times Ferrari... :-)

Take a look to last years races:

Nurburgring - McLaren driver put back on track with a crane - braking the rules however no one punished them
Japan- McLaren driver manages to provoke an accident under SC conditions, after several reckless moves in bad conditions, although his actions are criticized by the rest of the drivers no punishment is given
Brazil - McLaren driver uses more wet weather tires than allowed by the rules, no punishment again
- same McLaren driver blocks a Ferrari driver (Kimi) during qualifying, no punishment whatsoever

And BTW, it was the same McLaren driver that escaped punishment each and every time.

And what about the best one: McLaren found to be cheating, however the drivers are allowed to keep their points and fight for the title!

Yeah the FIA must be trying hard to support Ferrari in these conditions.

If you missed last season or just started watching F1 (this seems to be the case) than try to catch up with the reality first.

[Valve Bounce]

Getting a bit tetchy there, ioan. :eek:

In all honesty, had any other driver blocked a fast lap so blatantly, we would all have wanted a similar penalty.

Now, if we all watch that video again, you will notice that although a Ferrari was also shown going slowly, it was well off the racing line and did not impede anyone.

Having said all this, the current quals system is plain stupid. I can only surmise that Max is a congenital idiot.

[maximilian]

Nah, I am not new to F1, I been watching since 1982 (when it was still interesting, heheh). Sorry for having an opinion, and finding it a bit suspicious that JUST McLaren happen to get penalized, when it could have hit just about anybody. Anyways, let's see what happens with further penalty situations during the season, I'm gladly prepared to retract if it turns out that Ferrari gets more penalties than McLaren :p :

Oh, and I am not offended by being called a troublemaker, plus, apology accepted, tho none needed. After all, I am not a primadonna :D

[davidalbert]

In my oppinion, the mac's did the wrong thing and deserve the penalty. The team should have told them that Nick and Fernando were still on runs.
The only reason that they slow down and stroll back to the pits is because it is aloud. There is no rule to stop them. I can't see why "Max on the run" won't modify the Q3 rules to stop all the contraversy.
And i didn't notice all the complaining about Timmo getting penilised for the same thing in Melbourne.

[Mark]

The racing line is not just at one side of the track. It is impossible to keep off it all the time. The rules must be changed.

[Tazio]

I'm gladly prepared to retract if it turns out that Ferrari gets more penalties than McLaren
Are you prepared to look at each penalty OBJECTIVELY, and retract your claim if Mclaren gets more penalties that they deserve?

[Valve Bounce]

Are you prepared to look at each penalty OBJECTIVELY, and retract your claim if Mclaren gets more penalties that they deserve?

:up:

[Beth]

just my two cents i think punishing the drivers/teams involved does deserve the moving of their grid positions.. as far as i can tell a fine is too easy, they all have money and maybe it would be worth it to be a bit of a slow poke if you are only going to get a fine and keep grid position and slow your competition down.. however being moved on the grid is far more effective, maybe it will make them think twice or change stratigies on their last fuel saving lap... its dangerous and this needs to be a stern warning to those putting other drivers in a sticky situation.. again ust my two cents...

[ShiftingGears]

The fact is that thanks to this stupid fuel conserving rule someones going to lose out. If the McLarens were 100m up the road theyd be in the corner and thered be nothing anyone could do to stop that. I assure you none of the traffic would want to compromise their own race.

Dumb rule!

[CNR]

McLaren got penalized because they are McLaren. Traffic is a fact of life in qualifying, and you can't blame a team for slowing down to try and work with an idiotic refueling rule.

Why were no other drivers/teams penalized for slowing down? Because they aren't competing with Ferrari for the world championship. It's just the first 2008 installment of the ongoing bias towards Ferrari, exercised by the people within, who are already panicking that Ferrari scored a mere 1 point in the first race.


http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2008/03/22/hamilton-and-kovalainen-punished-for-blocking/
watch the video in the link.

:p : last year proved how big a cheat McLaren is. :p :

[osg]

FIA got it right for once...... bravo. Completely justfied punishment for a potentially lethal mistake.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2008/03/22/hamilton-and-kovalainen-punished-for-blocking/
watch the video in the link.

:p : last year proved how big a cheat McLaren is. :p : At about 30 seconds into that vid the on board appears to show another car before the McLarens, on the racng line, right in the apex of the corner.

The punishment for McLaren however is of course incontestable, & deserved.

[pentti]

There is an excellent finish journalist called Heikki Kulta.He has followed over 25 years F1. I read tonight his interview with both Heikki and Lewis. Heikki said that the team warned about that there are still fast drivers coming to qualifi as high as possible and indrustic Heikki to stay left.Like Heiki said it is ,it would been very dangerous move to right side cross the track then he was doing 80 km/h and thes two drivers behind were doing 300 km/h. Like Le Mans the rule is do not change the line then you see a lot faster coming. The punisment was quiete ok, but is not the solutian.It is going to happen againThis is my idea. Q 1,Q2 and Q3 should be driven with light fuel and before the the race teams can as much fuel as they want.Others would still not know how much you put there. So you do then do need to have any fuel saving. What do you think?

[Valve Bounce]

There is an excellent finish journalist called Heikki Kulta.He has followed over 25 years F1. I read tonight his interview with both Heikki and Lewis. Heikki said that the team warned about that there are still fast drivers coming to qualifi as high as possible and indrustic Heikki to stay left.Like Heiki said it is ,it would been very dangerous move to right side cross the track then he was doing 80 km/h and thes two drivers behind were doing 300 km/h. Like Le Mans the rule is do not change the line then you see a lot faster coming. The punisment was quiete ok, but is not the solutian.It is going to happen againThis is my idea. Q 1,Q2 and Q3 should be driven with light fuel and before the the race teams can as much fuel as they want.Others would still not know how much you put there. So you do then do need to have any fuel saving. What do you think?

I'll leave the reply to leopard sleeping. :confused:

[PSfan]

The way I see it, there is always a risk of this sort of thing happening, regardless of weather they are carrying race fuel or not... Weather they are driving slowly to conserve fuel for the race, or because they have cut it close and need to just make it into the pits, there will still be the slow cars on the track at the end of the qualifying session.

Also Lewis and Heikki where well deserving of the penalty, and I would not call it bad luck as Kubica was behind them, but was considerate enough to be off the racing line. I understand that during corners its hard not to be in the way, but they where in the middle of a straight... No excuses there...

Maybe if Lewis went to a few GPDA meetings, he would be aware of this... :p :

[anthonyvop]

Wait and see by the end of the season, how many times McLaren are penalized for "something" and how many times Ferrari... :-)
And if McLaren is penalized more what would that prove?

It would prove something that we already know.

The boys at McLaren are Cheaters as well as thieves.

[wmcot]

Cobblers, they were very rightly penalised for being (intended or not) on the racing line travelling at a snails pace. Traffic is a fact of life due to these numpty rules, but why make a dodgy situation more dangerous. STAY OFF THE RACING LINE IF YOU ARE NOT RACING - Simple!


I agree 100%! There had to be a brain fade or communication error from the pitwall. You can't just assume everyone is done with their flying laps and trundle along in the middle of the road. If you look at it, Kubika was well off the line to the inside and out of the way - hence no penalty to him.

I love all the Ferrari haters trying to blame Ferrari for something that happened when they weren't even near that part of the track! Maybe Ferrari ordered McLaren to slow down on the racing line (then again, McLaren has a history of that - remember DC in the rain at Spa in 1998? Slowing on the racing line only to be rear-ended by MS! Hmm...)

[wmcot]

The fact is that thanks to this stupid fuel conserving rule someones going to lose out. If the McLarens were 100m up the road theyd be in the corner and thered be nothing anyone could do to stop that. I assure you none of the traffic would want to compromise their own race.

Dumb rule!

True, but it is a rule and was enforced fairly.

[markabilly]

Watch the on board veiw-----On the racing line or not on the line, those slow speeds are incredibly dangerous!!!

Needs to be a dramactic hange in the rules. The out lap can be no less than 15 percent more than your fastest lap, or some such.

I think it is real stupid, when the safety car goes out, all the cars basically race around the track until they bunch up behond the safety car, desipte the fact that there must be some need for a slow-down or why have the safety car out.

Meanwhile right in the middle of Qing, it is just fine to drive around like a blind old person, taking a sunday afternoon sight seeing cruise, and scared to get the car going over 40 mph.

Real smart safety rules ??

[Hawkmoon]

Regardless of the drivers actions this incident highlights the problem with the qualifying rules regarding Q3. The FIA changed the rules this year and eliminated the fuel credits that drivers received in previous years. I don't know why they did this.

However they must have seen that by eliminating the fuel credit system it would mean that drivers would trundle back to the pits using as few revs as possible to conserve fuel. How could they not?

This was always going to occur. What excacerbated it in Malaysia is that most of the drivers finished their last lap with quite a bit of time on the clock. Usually the drivers cross the line after the session has finished, as Alonso and Heidfeld did, but not this time.

Imagine what would have happened if Heidfeld had come up on a slow moving car in the Monaco tunnel?

[BDunnell]

There is an excellent finish journalist called Heikki Kulta.He has followed over 25 years F1. I read tonight his interview with both Heikki and Lewis. Heikki said that the team warned about that there are still fast drivers coming to qualifi as high as possible and indrustic Heikki to stay left.Like Heiki said it is ,it would been very dangerous move to right side cross the track then he was doing 80 km/h and thes two drivers behind were doing 300 km/h. Like Le Mans the rule is do not change the line then you see a lot faster coming. The punisment was quiete ok, but is not the solutian.It is going to happen againThis is my idea. Q 1,Q2 and Q3 should be driven with light fuel and before the the race teams can as much fuel as they want.Others would still not know how much you put there. So you do then do need to have any fuel saving. What do you think?

I see absolutely nothing wrong with that idea.

Good point about it being potentially more dangerous to change your line, as well. Jo Bonnier might still be alive had it not been for a slower driver doing just that.

[markabilly]

The problem is a car going slow. Period. Does it really matter where they are on the track?

Okay. The slow car is to the right side of the track, clearly out of the racing line. Then there is a series of s-turns, beginning with a turn to the right. The driver will sooner of later, either be in or cross over the racing line. If he stays to the right, he will go through the apex. If he starts switching back and forth, given his slow speed and the fast speed of a car coming full out, in the later part of the corner, both the on-coming car and the too-slow car, will not be able to see each other in time due to the nature of an s-curve (or change in elevation or whatever) and the spped involved.

BINGO!! Too late to say you are sorry, and too late for any grid penalties to make a difference to either driver.

If they are on the track, they are a hazard. A car going too slow should be always be immediately blackflagged and off the track in a safe area.

For me the sin was not which side of the track, and I can see an argument for MAc, that given the switches between left and right turns and so forth, well, what is a fella to do? Simple. DO NOT GO SLOWW.

And in looking at some more of the video stuff, there were other cars that had at points on the track, the same potential to create havoc by going too slow, and having taken that in, well, maybe the mac drivers should not be penalized at all, unless a number of other drivers are also so penalized, because with those slow speeds, it was only a question of bad luck, that they were the unlucky ones to be in the wrong spot.

[BDunnell]

The problem is a car going slow. Period. Does it really matter where they are on the track?

Okay. The slow car is to the right side of the track, clearly out of the racing line. Then there is a series of s-turns, beginning with a turn to the right. The driver will sooner of later, either be in or cross over the racing line. If he stays to the right, he will go through the apex. If he starts switching back and forth, given his slow speed and the fast speed of a car coming full out, in the later part of the corner, both the on-coming car and the too-slow car, will not be able to see each other in time due to the nature of an s-curve (or change in elevation or whatever) and the spped involved.

BINGO!! Too late to say you are sorry, and too late for any grid penalties to make a difference to either driver.

If they are on the track, they are a hazard. A car going too slow should be always be immediately blackflagged and off the track in a safe area.

But why has this suddenly become a problem worthy of black-flagging? In and out laps have always been slower than proper qualifying laps, and there have always been blocking incidents.

[markabilly]

But why has this suddenly become a problem worthy of black-flagging? In and out laps have always been slower than proper qualifying laps, and there have always been blocking incidents.

Good point.

We need to wait until somebody gets killed before we do something :D

As to the rest of you, I find myself eating my prior words critical of Mac on this subject after I watched the video I made of the Q ( hey I get sleepy enuff during some of the races when it is daylight outside and midnight, I am in bed!!)

Clearly there were A NUMBER OF CARS just asking to take it up the rear.

Mac just got caught on the wrong side and at the wrong point. Could have been Ferrari.

And but for the grace of God, it could have been a lot worse. :(

[Valve Bounce]

Perhaps this is a good argument for cars to be able to make it back to the pits via a secondary road after turn 1. Cost would be minimal, and once a car hsa completed its hot lap, it takes the secondary road to return to the pits.

[markabilly]

Perhaps this is a good argument for cars to be able to make it back to the pits via a secondary road after turn 1. Cost would be minimal, and once a car hsa completed its hot lap, it takes the secondary road to return to the pits.
Why? Nobody been hurt yet, just like that bump that gGock took, no reason to fix it be it ever so obvious, until..................

[jjanicke]

Slow cars shouldn't be on the racing line. That said, and as many have pointed out, the speed delta's were unbelievable dangerous.

Mclaren deserved the punishment. They shouldn't have been on the line. But moving at that point would have been disastrous. If memory serves me correctly even Kimi got in from of, I believe, Fred on his slow inlap. Where's the punishment. (and I'm a big Kimi fan)

[maximilian]

Are you prepared to look at each penalty OBJECTIVELY, and retract your claim if Mclaren gets more penalties that they deserve?
Of course :s mokin: This is a purely objective forum, isn't it? ;)

[Tazio]

Of course Good answer!!:
smokin: This is a purely objective forum, isn't it? ;) NO!

[Valve Bounce]

Of course :s mokin: This is a purely objective forum, isn't it? ;)

I think the answer to your question could be answered best by this post:"McLaren got penalized because they are McLaren. Traffic is a fact of life in qualifying, and you can't blame a team for slowing down to try and work with an idiotic refueling rule.

Why were no other drivers/teams penalized for slowing down? Because they aren't competing with Ferrari for the world championship. It's just the first 2008 installment of the ongoing bias towards Ferrari, exercised by the people within, who are already panicking that Ferrari scored a mere 1 point in the first race."

[maxu05]

Can't agree with you on this one Valve. I see it as McClarens were the main offenders in this case. Perhaps other cars were slow for fuel saving purposes, but the Macs seemed to be right on the racing line when others were on their flying lap. Maybe it was not intentional, but still not good form IMO.

[Valve Bounce]

Can't agree with you on this one Valve. I see it as McClarens were the main offenders in this case. Perhaps other cars were slow for fuel saving purposes, but the Macs seemed to be right on the racing line when others were on their flying lap. Maybe it was not intentional, but still not good form IMO.


Moi?? Thou kiddest, dost thou not?? That was not my post I was quoting! Where have you been, mon ami??

But to be more even handed I would go as far as to agree with McLare that it was not intentional, and that is why they were only docked 5 places. Had it been intentional, they could have been brought to the back of the grid or even d/q'd.

[maxu05]

Sorry mate, just read the last couple of posts, didn't have time to read all the others :o Taking foot out of mouth soon :D

[pino]

Punishment deserved but what a stupid rule :crazy:

[Valve Bounce]

Punishment deserved but what a stupid rule :crazy:

Agreed!!

[markabilly]

Can't agree with you on this one Valve. I see it as McClarens were the main offenders in this case. Perhaps other cars were slow for fuel saving purposes, but the Macs seemed to be right on the racing line when others were on their flying lap. Maybe it was not intentional, but still not good form IMO.


Punishment deserved but what a stupid rule :crazy:

Nope after watching my tape, I say it was simply bad luck, a "racing incident" and this comes from one who gives no mercy to Macheaters



I think the answer to your question could be answered best by this post:"McLaren got penalized because they are McLaren. Traffic is a fact of life in qualifying, and you can't blame a team for slowing down to try and work with an idiotic refueling rule.

Why were no other drivers/teams penalized for slowing down? Because they aren't competing with Ferrari for the world championship. It's just the first 2008 installment of the ongoing bias towards Ferrari, exercised by the people within, who are already panicking that Ferrari scored a mere 1 point in the first race."

No mac got penalized because they were unlucky enough to be clearly in the racing line at the wrong moment by bad luck.

Could just as easily been someone else, as the nature of a road course means one is either in the racing line or crossing over it when trying to make a complete lap.



What needs to be changed is to outlaw slowing down on the track AND remove any reason for its existence. Period.

Said it before. But my prediction is that it will take a massive accident for that to occur. Why spoil TV revenue.....

:confused:

[SGWilko]

Take a look to last years races:

Nurburgring - McLaren driver put back on track with a crane - braking the rules however no one punished them

Err, the rules regarding this changed *this* year as a result of that incident. Not sure McLaren have access to the T.A.R.D.I.S. :rolleyes:

Japan- McLaren driver manages to provoke an accident under SC conditions, after several reckless moves in bad conditions, although his actions are criticized by the rest of the drivers no punishment is given Webber blamed Vettel - initially. No doubt, after being bollocked by his team, he changed his story.

And what about the best one: McLaren found to be cheating, however the drivers are allowed to keep their points and fight for the title!

Yeah the FIA must be trying hard to support Ferrari in these conditions.

If you missed last season or just started watching F1 (this seems to be the case) than try to catch up with the reality first. Well, your issue with Max on this one, not general forum users. He gave them 'immunity'......

[Valve Bounce]

Nope after watching my tape, I say it was simply bad luck, a "racing incident" and this comes from one who gives no mercy to Macheaters




No mac got penalized because they were unlucky enough to be clearly in the racing line at the wrong moment by bad luck.

Could just as easily been someone else, as the nature of a road course means one is either in the racing line or crossing over it when trying to make a complete lap.



What needs to be changed is to outlaw slowing down on the track AND remove any reason for its existence. Period.

Said it before. But my prediction is that it will take a massive accident for that to occur. Why spoil TV revenue.....

:confused:

Just to clarify my post, I was quoting somebody else's post. Comprenez vous?

But then this post has become a mess, hasn't it. :(

[Tazio]

^^^^
I got your hard hitting commentary Valve! ;)

[pino]

Is it better now Valve ? ;)

[markabilly]

Just to clarify my post, I was quoting somebody else's post. Comprenez vous?

But then this post has become a mess, hasn't it. :(


Sorry my mistake. I guess I choked under the pressure.........wait no it was that little blank's fault, and I am going to kick the blank out of him as soon as I figure out if he is smaller and easily whipped by me....

[stevie_gerrard]

They were on the racing line, so it was only fair to punish them for preventing either heidfeld or alonso from possibly setting a really quick lap. There definately needs to be something done about these new rules for qualifying.

[harsha]

i'm not sure only the mclaren drivers are at fault here...

yes they did break the rule and deserved the penalty but a very stupid rule nonetheless...why couldn't the FIA atleast have the fuel for the 3 odd laps(in q3) granted back to the drivers...

it'll atleast make them go in the required speed...

anyway as one member quotes it..

Stupid Rules,Stupid Consequences

[wmcot]

They were on the racing line, so it was only fair to punish them for preventing either heidfeld or alonso from possibly setting a really quick lap. There definately needs to be something done about these new rules for qualifying.

Let's see if there are any rule changes before Bahrain.

[ArrowsFA1]

This was always going to occur. What excacerbated it in Malaysia is that most of the drivers finished their last lap with quite a bit of time on the clock. Usually the drivers cross the line after the session has finished, as Alonso and Heidfeld did, but not this time.

Imagine what would have happened if Heidfeld had come up on a slow moving car in the Monaco tunnel?
Exactly :up: While I agree with the penalty imposed on the McLaren drivers I would hope that the FIA will review Q3 and eliminate the potential for this kind of thing happening again. It's simply a consequence of making fuel levels a strategic part of qualifying.

[wmcot]

They were on the racing line, so it was only fair to punish them for preventing either heidfeld or alonso from possibly setting a really quick lap. There definately needs to be something done about these new rules for qualifying.

Yep, we don't need another G. Villeneuve coming upon a slow Jochen Mass as in Zolder 1982.

[ioan]

Err, the rules regarding this changed *this* year as a result of that incident. Not sure McLaren have access to the T.A.R.D.I.S. :rolleyes:

They changed the regarding pushing a car back on track. Putting a car back on track with a crane was already illegal last season! You didn't do your homework!


Webber blamed Vettel - initially. No doubt, after being bollocked by his team, he changed his story.

Yeah no doubt! As valve used to say: "Link please!"

[Azumanga Davo]

There isn't a conspiracy, honest... :D

[SGWilko]

"Link please!"

Did you record that GP? If so watch it and listen to Webbers rant. Who does he blame?

Changed his story after that though.....

[Ranger]

Did you record that GP? If so watch it and listen to Webbers rant. Who does he blame?

Changed his story after that though.....

In his ITV interview he says "kids"... that's a plural term.

Vettel was always at fault but Hamilton's antics contributed to the accident.

To paraphrase a few quotes:

"I think Hamilton did a sh!t job behind the safety car... It definitely contributed to Sebastian hitting me up the back"


"In the end it was my fault. I am not here to blame anybody but I think it is clear the rhythm (behind the safety car) was not there.

[ioan]

Thanks for the quotes, saved me lots of time.