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View Full Version : RBR facing possible exclusion from GP



Ranger
21st March 2008, 11:10
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65952


Red Bull Racing have been asked to supply a technical report to the FIA to explain why the stewards should not consider excluding them from the Malaysian Grand Prix on safety grounds, following David Coulthard's accident in first practice.

Oh dear. :\

Tazio
21st March 2008, 11:17
Could they just exclude Sponge Bob? He's a menace! :D

ioan
21st March 2008, 12:21
IMO they went a bit to far with the design process in that area.
Putting it down to an adhesive that failed it's not enough to prove that the next time it won't be the same under hard braking.
And BTW, why did that adhesive failed? Maybe the contact surface is too small.

markabilly
21st March 2008, 12:26
Well, it was interesting how the suspension, esp. the rear suspension of DC, seem to come "unglued" in the contact with Massa while massa sufferred no apparent damge to his. Pieces were going everywhere!!

Valve Bounce
21st March 2008, 12:36
Does anyone have a link showing the accident, please! We didn't have that here on TV. :(

RJL25
21st March 2008, 12:42
Well, it was interesting how the suspension, esp. the rear suspension of DC, seem to come "unglued" in the contact with Massa while massa sufferred no apparent damge to his. Pieces were going everywhere!!

your missunderstanding what happened here. The adhesive failure is what caused the track rod to fail which sent DC off the track in the first place, its not what caused all of his wheels to come flying off, that was caused by hitting the curbing too hard. As for the crash in melbourne, DC's car didn't brake up from contact with massa's car, the impact with massa's car just launched DC into the air, it was the subsequent landing that caused the suspension to brake apart.


Putting it down to an adhesive that failed it's not enough to prove that the next time it won't be the same under hard braking.
And BTW, why did that adhesive failed? Maybe the contact surface is too small.

if you read the article it tells you why the adhesive failed, the adhesive failed due to human error, the person who put it together did not treat it properly and therefore it didn't properly seal. Again this failure only caused DC to go off the road, and is quite seperate to the suspension all braking apart which appened after he rode over the curb, exactly the same as how Timo Glock's toyota came apart in the last race! So its hardly just RBR who's suspension comes apart due to impact with a curb!

ioan
21st March 2008, 12:47
if you read the article it tells you why the adhesive failed, the adhesive failed due to human error, the person who put it together did not treat it properly and therefore it didn't properly seal.

Human error is the easiest to blame as it can't be really checked afterwards.
But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

If they don't get things right at this level of technology than this season will be like many others before.

BDunnell
21st March 2008, 12:51
your missunderstanding what happened here. The adhesive failure is what caused the track rod to fail which sent DC off the track in the first place, its not what caused all of his wheels to come flying off, that was caused by hitting the curbing too hard. As for the crash in melbourne, DC's car didn't brake up from contact with massa's car, the impact with massa's car just launched DC into the air, it was the subsequent landing that caused the suspension to brake apart.

Yes, I'm rather surprised that the connection has been made with the accident in Australia. I didn't think the damage caused to Coulthard's car was any worse than what you would expect in such an incident.

However, it is very unusual for the stewards to bring something like this up, so they probably have a genuine, specific concern. Whether it's right or not, we shall see.

jens
21st March 2008, 13:43
Suspension? Like Toyota in Canada last year.

After winter testing there were quite high expectations on Red Bull and also suggestions that they are finally reliable. Well, not!

And who compares Glock's and Coulthard's accidents at Melbourne, then as much as I remember Timo's accident was more serious, so I wouldn't make such comparison.

janneppi
21st March 2008, 13:56
Just saw Webber's, incident, no way was that bad enough to cause a car to loose it's suspension bits if everything is okay. They hit kerbs much worse than that.

DonJippo
21st March 2008, 13:57
In this short areticle on MTV3 webpage it says that in an interview on SpeedTV Mark Webber was concerned about how fragile their car is, this interview was done on Thursday.

http://www.mtv3.fi/urheilu/f1/uutiset.shtml/arkistot/f1/2008/03/626359

grantb4
21st March 2008, 19:26
Yes, I'm rather surprised that the connection has been made with the accident in Australia. I didn't think the damage caused to Coulthard's car was any worse than what you would expect in such an incident.


Even Martin Brundle commented on ITV at the time how DC's car was destroyed by the contact with Massa, while Massa drove away unscathed.

Is there a thread for the BBC taking over F1 coverage from ITV yet?

wmcot
21st March 2008, 19:39
if you read the article it tells you why the adhesive failed, the adhesive failed due to human error, the person who put it together did not treat it properly and therefore it didn't properly seal.

That wouldn't give me a great deal of confidence at high speed in a RBR!!!

BDunnell
21st March 2008, 20:01
Even Martin Brundle commented on ITV at the time how DC's car was destroyed by the contact with Massa, while Massa drove away unscathed.

Ah, didn't hear that. Must have been making myself a coffee!

maxu05
21st March 2008, 20:55
I don't think I would feel comfortable driving at 300kph in a car that has been glued together :D

ioan
21st March 2008, 21:21
I don't think I would feel comfortable driving at 300kph in a car that has been glued together :D

What of I tell you that some suspension parts of the TGV (Train Grande Vitesse) that travels at over 300 kph are glued together?!

In fact the technique of gluing parts together is very advanced and widely used in the automotive, aeronautical and transporting industry.

Valve Bounce
21st March 2008, 21:23
Does anyone have a link showing the prang, please.

Tazio
21st March 2008, 21:29
Does anyone have a link showing the prang, please.yes someone break out some vid of that shunt! please?

jjanicke
21st March 2008, 21:33
Human error is the easiest to blame as it can't be really checked afterwards.
But I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.

If they don't get things right at this level of technology than this season will be like many others before.

Of course it can be checked. Take sample parts and test them under similar loads. If they fail, it a design problem, if they don't it's a manufacturing problem.

The more you write on this forum the less credible you get.

jjanicke
21st March 2008, 21:35
What of I tell you that some suspension parts of the TGV (Train Grande Vitesse) that travels at over 300 kph are glued together?!

In fact the technique of gluing parts together is very advanced and widely used in the automotive, aeronautical and transporting industry.

It's called composites!

jjanicke
21st March 2008, 21:39
As someone pointed out already DC's failed while hitting the ground after being launched into the air by contact with Massa. For that matter so did Timo's. He got launched by a little bump off track and the subsequent landing destroyed the car.

DC's car fell apart in practice after going off the track in a flat out section, and then hitting the back side of the curbs while coming back across the track, pretty much at full speed.

Now I'm not saying the RB4 isn't fragile, but certainly there are fairly logical reasons for why the failures have happened and they don't immediately point to an unsafe car.

Tazio
21st March 2008, 21:43
Does anyone have a link showing the prang, please.Found it Valve. Not as dramatic as I imagined. It disassembled effortlessly!
http://www.pcplanets.com/videoyoutube-coulthard-crash-malaysia.xVM1xsiI4tM.shtml

ioan
21st March 2008, 21:44
It's called composites!

And what if it were two massive metal parts glued together?

PS: I know what composites are, and I was not talking about them.

ioan
21st March 2008, 21:47
Found it Valve. Not as dramatic as I imagined. It disassembled effortlessly!
http://www.pcplanets.com/videoyoutube-coulthard-crash-malaysia.xVM1xsiI4tM.shtml

That's exactly the problem, nothing dramatic and still the front suspension disintegrated.

BDunnell
21st March 2008, 21:50
I see what you mean. That ought not to have happened!

Valve Bounce
21st March 2008, 22:07
I see what you mean. That ought not to have happened!

The car appeared to come back onto the track via the curb, and the suspension just fell apart. It was not as if the car was launched like in Melbourne, nor Glock's prang where the car was lunched into the air after it ran over the service road's edge.

Something's not right here and Red Bull had better check their assembly procedures very carefully.

Valve Bounce
21st March 2008, 22:13
Thanks Taz. I watched the vid again, and the second one is better. I don't think the tub flew into the air at all. The front suspension just came off :eek:

Unless RBR can show that they have completely overcome this problem, then that car should not be raced.

Tazio
21st March 2008, 22:23
I've made some disparaging comments about DC lately! I actually over did it a bit!
Apologies to his fans!

Now, I have serious concern if either RB belongs on the grid!
This should be a very serious consideration of the Stewards. They probably will run!
What should the consequences be if they have a similar failure in the race?

Valve Bounce
21st March 2008, 22:25
I just wonder if this is the car they stuck back together after Melbourne.

jjanicke
21st March 2008, 22:33
And what if it were two massive metal parts glued together?

PS: I know what composites are, and I was not talking about them.

Two massive parts of metal glued together is called a composite. The Automative industry, in particular Lotus, has been using this COMPOSITE technique for a while now.

jjanicke
21st March 2008, 22:34
Watch, and more importantly listen to the video again. The impact on the back side of the curbs is very dramatic and makes a huge impact sound.

It's also very interesting that the left tire hits the curb first, remains intact, and then the right tire hits and breaks. The part failure that led to the off in the first place was on the right side. Certainly the failure of that part could inturn, with a sever impact to the backside of the curb, lead to the suspension failure.

BDunnell
21st March 2008, 22:42
Watch, and more importantly listen to the video again. The impact on the back side of the curbs is very dramatic and makes a huge impact sound.


Isn't the impact sound also the sound of the failure, rather than just the tyre hitting the kerb?

And another question is there a precedent for the stewards withdrawing a car, or team, from a race on safety grounds? I can't recall it happening before.

Valve Bounce
21st March 2008, 22:49
Lotus from Le Mans.

BDunnell
21st March 2008, 22:50
Lotus from Le Mans.

I was thinking about F1. I take it you're talking about the 24 Hours?

Ranger
21st March 2008, 22:55
Isn't the impact sound also the sound of the failure, rather than just the tyre hitting the kerb?

And another question is there a precedent for the stewards withdrawing a car, or team, from a race on safety grounds? I can't recall it happening before.

Minardi in Spain (?) 2002 did not start either car in the race because of safety concerns. However in that case the team managed to convince the FIA to take that action... The FIA didn't tell them they couldn't participate, like they would be doing in this case if the car is deemed unsafe.

That's all I can recall from the recent past...

jens
21st March 2008, 22:55
With approximately 7 hours to go, then what are the latest news? Will Red Bull participate?

Anyway, the video shows quite obviously that the suspension failed way too easily.

Tazio
21st March 2008, 22:56
The teather of the Rt. front also let go!

davidalbert
21st March 2008, 23:08
Adrian Newey has a history of building fragile cars, I seem to remember a problem with McLarens suspension a few years ago

ShiftingGears
21st March 2008, 23:23
Yikes. Reminds me of Monza last year, when DC's car just fell to pieces going through the Curva Grande. I wonder if that car is the same one that DC crashed in last week.

maxu05
21st March 2008, 23:27
Maybe Airfix or Revell will sponsor a team :D

71minus2
21st March 2008, 23:57
i think that you could compare that to driving over some catseyes on the M25! Both DC's and TG's cars seemed exsessively damaged in relation to the crash.

markabilly
22nd March 2008, 00:27
i just looked at my old video of the massa 'bump', still looks like parts of the suspension came apart due to the bump of the cars (esp the rear wheel contacting the front wheel of Massa's car), but the rest did go flying off with car going into the air and coming down, but Ihave seen numerous other cars go equally airbonre, flip over and so far, without all the suspension part coimg off. As to Tim (TG) that seems to me due to the fact that the raised ground was like hittting a low wall, so that does not seem to be that big a problem.

and this new crash--my oh my, that just looks completely

gloomyDAY
22nd March 2008, 02:07
Adrian Newey has a history of building fragile cars, I seem to remember a problem with McLarens suspension a few years agoRead my mind.

The Red Bull looked like the old McLaren's from 2005.
Anyone remember this? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGhZyEgizxE)

Valve Bounce
22nd March 2008, 02:23
...........or Tarzan's Grip. :p :

jjanicke
22nd March 2008, 03:21
i think that you could compare that to driving over some catseyes on the M25! Both DC's and TG's cars seemed exsessively damaged in relation to the crash.

Really? Timo's car comes back down quite hard. I'm surprised at how well it handled the initial impact. The argument can made about DCs failure, but even there hitting the 3-4inch curb from the wrong side at speed, it seems reasonable to expect component failure.

http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2008/03/16/video-timo-glock-crash/

Tazio
22nd March 2008, 03:47
RB's cleared to run!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65980

The FIA has said it will continue to review the safety of the suspension of Red Bull Racing's RB4, despite giving the team the green light to continue competing in the Malaysian Grand Prix.

The team's cars took to the track in Saturday morning's free practice session at Sepang just minutes after the FIA confirmed it was to take no action against the team in the wake of David Coulthard's spectacular accident on Friday.

Marbles
22nd March 2008, 04:05
Another shot of the off from SPEED.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhrY6F8HAvU

Tazio
22nd March 2008, 04:09
the hit looks a little harder from that angle

TMorel
22nd March 2008, 08:49
a 4" step on that curbing?
OK, in that case I'm not surprised
we hit something similar at MIRA and there wasn't much left of our front and that was at a much lower speed