UGLY Cars!!!

[ROBHARRIS]

No matter how you cut it, these cars are butt ugly!! I can't get excited about watching these cars. If the Panoz was suppose to be the car of the future and has passed all the crash tests, why doesn't IndyCar just develop an oval package for this car and have there new car ready to go for next year. There are about 30 chassis built already, and it would only require to produce another 40 more and everyone would have 2 cars for next season. To keep it fair for everyone, have all former CHAMPCAR Teams hand over their Panoz cars so they can't develop them anymore then they have. Then next year they would get them back, and they could share their setups with the teams that helped them this year on the crapwagens. Since the oval package would be new to them as well next year, no team would have an advantage in developing the car and it would be fair to everyone. Personally, I won't pay a cent to go to any race with those machines, and if I have to wait 2 years for another car to come along that actually looks like an IndyCar, by that time I probably will have lost total interest in open wheel racing, or will be following another series and will never be back as a fan. I've talked to alot of open wheel fans over the last few weeks, and most feel the same. If IndyCar is serious about bringing over die hard ChampCar fans this has be done as soon as possible. The fans that I associate with travel all over the country to go to races (we speak with our wallets), and most of them will not spend their money on this form of open wheel racing. The clock is ticking!!

[jimispeed]

No matter how you cut it, these cars are butt ugly!! I can't get excited about watching these cars. If the Panoz was suppose to be the car of the future and has passed all the crash tests, why doesn't IndyCar just develop an oval package for this car and have there new car ready to go for next year. There are about 30 chassis built already, and it would only require to produce another 40 more and everyone would have 2 cars for next season. To keep it fair for everyone, have all former CHAMPCAR Teams hand over their Panoz cars so they can't develop them anymore then they have. Then next year they would get them back, and they could share their setups with the teams that helped them this year on the crapwagens. Since the oval package would be new to them as well next year, no team would have an advantage in developing the car and it would be fair to everyone. Personally, I won't pay a cent to go to any race with those machines, and if I have to wait 2 years for another car to come along that actually looks like an IndyCar, by that time I probably will have lost total interest in open wheel racing, or will be following another series and will never be back as a fan. I've talked to alot of open wheel fans over the last few weeks, and most feel the same. If IndyCar is serious about bringing over die hard ChampCar fans this has be done as soon as possible. The fans that I associate with travel all over the country to go to races (we speak with our wallets), and most of them will not spend their money on this form of open wheel racing. The clock is ticking!!


I agree....... Not only ugly, but also sloooow.


I won't spend my money on tickets until it's worth seeing live. I may view it on television, but I'm afraid it might not be up to what I expect as a fan, and I hope I can get through watching a race. The DP01 was and is a beautiful car that looks fast, and drives fast. Nimble and quick.

This Indycar looks terrible!! Not inspiring at all!!

[nanders]

There are so few fans left they don't mind cleaning the slate? That may not be true but I have thought it for quite a while.

With that said, I really think we need to understand that we may be somewhat more happy after the new spec is introduced and any reaction between now then can only be considered "knee jerk." I feel for the crappy's ... I kinda am one. You gotta give the teams a break here. You don't have to give up on hate, you can still hate TG.

The worst thing that can happen is the whole thing fails. And if it does it ain't gonna be because of that crapwagon. All the players already know that that car has to go. You gotta be patient.

[jimispeed]

There are so few fans left they don't mind cleaning the slate? That may not be true but I have thought it for quite a while.

With that said, I really think we need to understand that we may be somewhat more happy after the new spec is introduced and any reaction between now then can only be considered "knee jerk." I feel for the crappy's ... I kinda am one. You gotta give the teams a break here. You don't have to give up on hate, you can still hate TG.

The worst thing that can happen is the whole thing fails. And if it does it ain't gonna be because of that crapwagon. All the player already know that that car has to go. You gotta be patient.


I'll try, but what I saw, and what I am seeing is so far off!!

[LuigiStone]

The Dallara isn't a beautiful car. But neither is the DP01. It looks like a cheap European ladder series car. It actually looks a lot like a GP2 or Formula Nissan car. Not a "proper fast-looking race car" like the silly CC fanatics claim.

The Lolas and the Reynards on the other hand were real Champ Cars/Indy Cars.

[nanders]

The Dallara isn't a beautiful car. But neither is the DP01. It looks like a cheap European ladder series car. It actually looks a lot like a GP2 or Formula Nissan car. Not a "proper fast-looking race car" like the silly CC fanatics claim.

The Lolas and the Reynards on the other hand were real Champ Cars/Indy Cars.

They should make the next car look like the 98 Reynards :p

[tbyars]

No matter how you cut it, these cars are butt ugly!! I can't get excited about watching these cars. If the Panoz was suppose to be the car of the future and has passed all the crash tests, why doesn't IndyCar just develop an oval package for this car and have there new car ready to go for next year. There are about 30 chassis built already, and it would only require to produce another 40 more and everyone would have 2 cars for next season. To keep it fair for everyone, have all former CHAMPCAR Teams hand over their Panoz cars so they can't develop them anymore then they have. Then next year they would get them back, and they could share their setups with the teams that helped them this year on the crapwagens. Since the oval package would be new to them as well next year, no team would have an advantage in developing the car and it would be fair to everyone. Personally, I won't pay a cent to go to any race with those machines, and if I have to wait 2 years for another car to come along that actually looks like an IndyCar, by that time I probably will have lost total interest in open wheel racing, or will be following another series and will never be back as a fan. I've talked to alot of open wheel fans over the last few weeks, and most feel the same. If IndyCar is serious about bringing over die hard ChampCar fans this has be done as soon as possible. The fans that I associate with travel all over the country to go to races (we speak with our wallets), and most of them will not spend their money on this form of open wheel racing. The clock is ticking!!

Rob, with all respect, it's just not as easy as that.

The folks from the ICS have looked at the Panoz cars, and, by all reports I have heard, were not impressed at the way the cars were built to handle ovals. And, no, the cars have NOT been tested on ovals; as far as we know for sure, there has never been one run on an oval. So it's a big stretch to say that all you have to do is develop an oval aero package and go racing. Maybe so, probably not.

Additionally, we don't have ANY idea of how the Panoz would handle the Honda engine running ethanol, or if the Panoz/Cosworth/turbo combo could handle ethanol. Remember, what finally put the Panoz under the carpet in the IRL was that it couldn't cool an engine running ethanol effectively.

But all that is just window dressing anyway. Frankly, your aesthetic assessment of the cars doesn't count for anything until you purchase the series. Only then can you run the car you want to run based on what YOU think a good looking race car looks like. Dallara has been a very good vendor for the ICS. Tony's not going to just sweep them under the rug. That's just factual.

So, bottom line, is that you can enjoy the sights and sounds of the Dallaras you think are ugly (although I bet you the general sports fan doesn't know the difference) actually racing, or you can enjoy 28 or so nearly pristine show cars as they tour the country, silent, looking pretty to some and pretty useless and slow to others while they sit on your local Pontiac dealer's showroom floor.

Right now, there simply isn't a third choice.

"Car of the Future?" Only to a very limited few. Historically, it will more likely go down as one of the single largest wastes of money in autosports history.

I've said this before and will likely say it again. If specific hardware is what floats the boat in ANY series and becomes the end all, do all of the series, that series is in big trouble. It's a tiny part of the overall equation. I think we saw that. It can't make a series, and it can't save a series. I KNOW we saw that.

Don't hold your breath and just do what you need to do. Once the checkers drop at LB, you'll never see the DP-01 in a serious race again, IMO.

[tbyars]

I agree....... Not only ugly, but also sloooow.

jimi, I DARE you to stand at ANY corner at Seabring and watch the action, and tell me which car is running a 52.5 second lap and one that is running a 51 second lap. That is just plain silly. I've been attending races live for 45 years, and I sure can't do it.


I won't spend my money on tickets until it's worth seeing live. I may view it on television, but I'm afraid it might not be up to what I expect as a fan, and I hope I can get through watching a race. The DP01 was and is a beautiful car that looks fast, and drives fast. Nimble and quick.

This Indycar looks terrible!! Not inspiring at all!!

In your OPINION, to which you are very much entitled. But so are others entitled to a different opinion. I, for one don't agree with your assessment of the DP-01. Who's "right?"

Frankly, I've never been too inspired by ANY particular car on the track. Oh, I'm willing to admit that some are "prettier" than others. But, now, give me a driver who can get every ounce of performance out of whatever car they happen to be driving, make their best effort to reach the finish line first, and that's what I call INSPIRING!

[nigelred5]

I've gotta say, I loved the 92-93 Lolas aesthetically. Long, low and sexy. THE Reynards brought on a more chunky look.
the dallare is just so rear-end heavy in appearance, the way the cockpit is raised above the suer low and slim nose just gives it a very ungainly appearance to me. It has always sorta reminded me of the SST from the Johnny Quest cartoons.

Man, the Walker team Australia livery wasone of my all time favorites. Boy did they make those colors ugly as sin on the KV Dallara.

[gofastandwynn]

If you like the DP-01 so much, buy it...

http://walkerracing.com/media/display.php?id=428&lang=en

[CCWS77]

Frankly, your aesthetic assessment of the cars doesn't count for anything until you purchase the series. Only then can you run the car you want to run based on what YOU think a good looking race car looks like.
If you like the DP-01 so much, buy it...If those in charge have the same views as your condesending and arrogant posts towards fans expressing an opinion then this series is doomed.


give me a driver who can get every ounce of performance out of whatever car they happen to be driving, make their best effort to reach the finish line first, and that's what I call INSPIRING!I can agree with that. So then it is baffling why you are in favor of the formula that is rewarding more team workshop time over the one that favored more raw driver skill.

[nanders]

Bring back the Lotus STP Turbines.

[tbyars]

If those in charge have the same views as your condesending and arrogant posts towards fans expressing an opinion then this series is doomed.

You just don't get it, do you?

If you took all of us who can tell the difference between a Dallara and a DP-01 on the track at speed and decreed that we could never watch an open wheel race again, it wouldn't impact the future of the series ONE BIT.

That's why this entire arguement about which car looks good and which one is ugly is the silliest conversation I have ever heard!

If you don't like the product, then just remove it from your life. It's really that easy.

It's not about opinions. Everyone is entitled to those. It's about thinking you can use those opinions to hold a racing series hostage because you are not getting your way.

[-Helix-]

We get it, the Dallara is ugly.

Hasn't this been covered enough?

It's not like there are many good looking open wheel cars these days. Even F1 cars are ugly as ****. And the CC fanboys' precious DP-01 isn't that great looking either. Just your normal boring European ladder car. But since it is mildly better looking than the Dallara of course the fanatics have to make it seem like god's gift to to the world as it was one of the few (if only) areas CC was ahead of the IRL. :rolleyes:

Lets face it. Good looking cars are a thing of the past. This is pretty much true in all racing series. (Though at least the new F1 regulations are headed back in the right direction.. And soon the IRL will have a new package too. There's still hope.)

[garyshell]

jimi, I DARE you to stand at ANY corner at Seabring and watch the action, and tell me which car is running a 52.5 second lap and one that is running a 51 second lap. That is just plain silly. I've been attending races live for 45 years, and I sure can't do it.

Thank you! I was just about to write the very same thing to jimi.

Look jimi, you really need to come to grips with the REALITY. The DP01 isgone for 2008 and 2009, and maybe forever. Yes I agree it looked better. But this notion of the speed difference being so drastic is simply ridiculous. 52.5 vs 51? Who gives a rat's @$$? Why do you keep beating that dead horse? I have said time and again. Put the same car on the same track 24 hours apart with a 2-3 second per lap speed difference and I DARE you to tell me which one is faster without the use of a stopwatch.

Gary

[TU Homer]

jimi, I DARE you to stand at ANY corner at Seabring and watch the action, and tell me which car is running a 52.5 second lap and one that is running a 51 second lap. That is just plain silly. I've been attending races live for 45 years, and I sure can't do it.



In your OPINION, to which you are very much entitled. But so are others entitled to a different opinion. I, for one don't agree with your assessment of the DP-01. Who's "right?"

Frankly, I've never been too inspired by ANY particular car on the track. Oh, I'm willing to admit that some are "prettier" than others. But, now, give me a driver who can get every ounce of performance out of whatever car they happen to be driving, make their best effort to reach the finish line first, and that's what I call INSPIRING!

Misleading statement. Sure, the laptimes may be about 5% variant, but the characteristics of the IRL car vs. indycar are very different. The indycar is much quicker out of turns, and into turns, while the IRL car gains times on the straighter sections (on the roadcourse set up). The IRL cars are not only ugly, but they appear much slower and less nimble. Their change in speeds (acceleration) is much less than the indycar.


-TU

[TU Homer]

The folks from the ICS have looked at the Panoz cars, and, by all reports I have heard, were not impressed at the way the cars were built to handle ovals. And, no, the cars have NOT been tested on ovals; as far as we know for sure, there has never been one run on an oval. So it's a big stretch to say that all you have to do is develop an oval aero package and go racing. Maybe so, probably not.

Additionally, we don't have ANY idea of how the Panoz would handle the Honda engine running ethanol, or if the Panoz/Cosworth/turbo combo could handle ethanol. Remember, what finally put the Panoz under the carpet in the IRL was that it couldn't cool an engine running ethanol effectively.

But all that is just window dressing anyway. Frankly, your aesthetic assessment of the cars doesn't count for anything until you purchase the series. Only then can you run the car you want to run based on what YOU think a good looking race car looks like. Dallara has been a very good vendor for the ICS. Tony's not going to just sweep them under the rug. That's just factual.

So, bottom line, is that you can enjoy the sights and sounds of the Dallaras you think are ugly (although I bet you the general sports fan doesn't know the difference) actually racing, or you can enjoy 28 or so nearly pristine show cars as they tour the country, silent, looking pretty to some and pretty useless and slow to others while they sit on your local Pontiac dealer's showroom floor.

Right now, there simply isn't a third choice.

"Car of the Future?" Only to a very limited few. Historically, it will more likely go down as one of the single largest wastes of money in autosports history.

I've said this before and will likely say it again. If specific hardware is what floats the boat in ANY series and becomes the end all, do all of the series, that series is in big trouble. It's a tiny part of the overall equation. I think we saw that. It can't make a series, and it can't save a series. I KNOW we saw that.

Don't hold your breath and just do what you need to do. Once the checkers drop at LB, you'll never see the DP-01 in a serious race again, IMO.

Again, misleading statements. You must NOT be an engineer.

The DP01 was designed to run ovals. IF it wasn't yet tested, the car has been modeled for ovals. Modeling is not a guess, it uses proven algorithms and simulations on known variables.

Granted, I'm not speaking to the actual quality of the build rather than the design intent. IF the DP01 quality were improved to say, the Lola or Dallara (in terms of quality controls, fit, standards) then the design would no doubt prove a solid oval car. Yes, it needs to actually be tested, and there would be some kinks to work out. But the overall design is for ovals. There is enough data and history with theory and within Panoz to state the models and the actual results are very similar.


-TU

[grungex]

jimi, I DARE you to stand at ANY corner at Seabring and watch the action, and tell me which car is running a 52.5 second lap and one that is running a 51 second lap.

How about a 52.5 vs. a 49.8 second lap?

[garyshell]

How about a 52.5 vs. a 49.8 second lap?


I still maintain that if you view these two times by the same car on the same track 24 hours apart, there is not a snowball's chance in hell you will be able to tell which run was which without a stopwatch.

Gary

[SpeedyRB]

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, here's what Jimmy Vasser had to say in an IndyCar series teleconference interview last Wed, March 12th:

"The Champ Cars are a fantastic machine, and it's going to be sad to see them sidelined - the DPO1 and turbo Cosworth. I think it's going to be a little bittersweet. But I think everybody's working hard to make [Long Beach] a celebration race and I'm looking forward to it. But, again, I think it's going to be a little sad to hear the turbos shut down for the last time and to see the DPO1 parked, because quite honestly it is a racing machine. It runs circles around the Dallara."

I am a former IRL-hatin' ChampCar lovin' fan, but now that there is one series, I am going to follow the IndyCar series. However, I do hope they get a better looking machine. And it is sad to hear JV and some of the former ChampCar drivers making the switch talk about how the new car is down on power and performance compared to the DP-01... The fact that JV had the balls to come right out and say this to the ICS moderator speaks volumes about how the owners and drivers feel about the ICS machinery.

Please get a better looking and performing package in 2010!

[-Helix-]

Again, misleading statements. You must NOT be an engineer.

The DP01 was designed to run ovals. IF it wasn't yet tested, the car has been modeled for ovals. Modeling is not a guess, it uses proven algorithms and simulations on known variables.

Granted, I'm not speaking to the actual quality of the build rather than the design intent. IF the DP01 quality were improved to say, the Lola or Dallara (in terms of quality controls, fit, standards) then the design would no doubt prove a solid oval car. Yes, it needs to actually be tested, and there would be some kinks to work out. But the overall design is for ovals. There is enough data and history with theory and within Panoz to state the models and the actual results are very similar.


-TU

So are you willing to open your wallet and pay for all the testing, kink-working-out, and all the chassis' for every team? Hope you got a few million laying around and some time on your hands. I'm sure the IRL wouldn't mind your charity work. If you start now you might even have the cars ready for the 2009 season. Then we'd see all your hard work and money be useful for one whole season until the new package is ready! :eek:

To expect the IRL to put out so much effort and money into a car that will be considered outdated in a few years when they're planning on getting an entirely new package in 2010 is laughable.

Just suck it up and wait a couple years. Sheesh. The Dallaras aren't THAT bad. You guys act like they're lawnmowers or something. If NASCAR is so popular with what they run, Indycar should have no problem. I'm sure the thousands of casual fans will make up for the few hardcore whiners like yourself who turn their back on the series because of a few seconds difference in lap times.

[ROBHARRIS]

who says the 2010 package is going to be that much better than the DP01. you don't think there is going to be cost associated with developing this so called 2010 package. million of dollars and a great deal of time has already been spend on the development DP01. why not take advantage of that. the DP01 is cheaper to buy than the current IRL car, and there are probably close to 30 chassis already built that are only 1 year old. it would be alot cheaper to develop an oval package for the DP01 then to develop a whole brand new car. why not use the DP01 for a say a 3 year period, remembering it's still a new car, and by doing this it will reduce cost now and give the powers to be more opportunity and time to develop this next generation car. IndyCar needs a new car asap. the current inventory is old, and as Champcar found out at the end of the life cycle of the Lola, there are safety factors involved for drivers, teams and fans as equipment failed because of fatique.

[F1boat]

The Dallara looks like an Indycar, ugly one, but Indycar. The old Reynard was a beauty, cool Indycar. The DP-01 is beautiful, but looks like GP 2. I prefer the Indycars to be different to GP 2.

[tbyars]

Again, misleading statements. You must NOT be an engineer.

The DP01 was designed to run ovals. IF it wasn't yet tested, the car has been modeled for ovals. Modeling is not a guess, it uses proven algorithms and simulations on known variables.

No, I'm NOT an engineer. Given that, if you are, I take it you were on the Elan design team and know, beyond a doubt in the world, that the Panoz is as safe or safer than the current Dallara on a high speed, high banked oval. That is what you are saying, correct?

And, of course, based on your statement, you are also willing to tell us that modeling is NEVER wrong when translated to the real world, right? You are willing to bet the lives of the drivers on that, right?

You know, CART/CCWS had that exact attitude once before. They ended up canceling a race because of it an hour before the green was supposed to drop.

Once again, officials from IMS looked at the car, and didn't like what they saw. The have the ultimate responsibility for the safety of the drivers in the races they sanction, and they have chosen not to use the car. That says volumes more to me that the absolute nonsense we are hearing from so many that the car should be used because they think it "looks" better, a totally subjective aesthetic criteria that has NOTHING to do with engineering.


Granted, I'm not speaking to the actual quality of the build rather than the design intent. IF the DP01 quality were improved to say, the Lola or Dallara (in terms of quality controls, fit, standards) then the design would no doubt prove a solid oval car. Yes, it needs to actually be tested, and there would be some kinks to work out. But the overall design is for ovals. There is enough data and history with theory and within Panoz to state the models and the actual results are very similar.

I'm sure a lot of that same reliable data and theory with the Panoz went into designing the fuel cell and roll hoops as well. How'd that turn out? Oh, yes, I remember...in practice, there were "a few kinks" to work out there, too.

Bottom line, however, is that you have proven my basic point with Rob. It just isn't as simple as putting an oval aero kit on the cars, building 40 or so more of them and going racing.

[tbyars]

who says the 2010 package is going to be that much better than the DP01. you don't think there is going to be cost associated with developing this so called 2010 package. million of dollars and a great deal of time has already been spend on the development DP01. why not take advantage of that. the DP01 is cheaper to buy than the current IRL car, and there are probably close to 30 chassis already built that are only 1 year old. it would be alot cheaper to develop an oval package for the DP01 then to develop a whole brand new car. why not use the DP01 for a say a 3 year period, remembering it's still a new car, and by doing this it will reduce cost now and give the powers to be more opportunity and time to develop this next generation car.

Once again, Rob, the folks from the ICS have looked at the car and they have made the decision not to use it. That seems to be the bottom line here. They sanction the series, and they seem to have their reasons why your solution isn't acceptable for their use. Aesthetics and placating the CCWS fan base doesn't seem to triumph that consideration.

Aside from that, as I stated before, TG is simply NOT going to just take a dump on the folks from Dallara. That's not how he does business. It simply is not going to happen.


IndyCar needs a new car asap. the current inventory is old, and as Champcar found out at the end of the life cycle of the Lola, there are safety factors involved for drivers, teams and fans as equipment failed because of fatique.

I certainly hope that TU Homer is just as quick to point out how misleading this statement of yours is.

When was the last time a new Lola saw the track prior to 2007?

How many BRAND NEW Dallaras will take the green at the first race? (Hint - all the former CCWS teams will have at least one.)

Your statement is totally false. The inventory of CCWS was indeed old, with no new chassis being introduced, and that did lead to failures due to parts fatigue. But the inventory in the ICS is MUCH younger, with several brand spanking new cars being introduced each year. Some teams are reported to replace their entire inventory each year, which is why there were 60 some odd cars out there and available for the new teams that are making the switch.

Nothing in the "life cycle" of those brand new chassis should lead to the parts fatigue and failure you point out.

Both Penske cars had a wing failure at one race last year. You think, considering the Penske operation, those failures had to do with fatigue on old, worn out parts, or could it have had to do with other reasons?

[gofastandwynn]

So we should just dump the chassis maker that has been a loyal partner since the start of the series so you can be happy? NO


. If IndyCar is serious about bringing over die hard ChampCar fans this has be done as soon as possible. The fans that I associate with travel all over the country to go to races (we speak with our wallets), and most of them will not spend their money on this form of open wheel racing.

The question then becomes is it worth trying to bring over the CCF fans? What will the ROI on that be? Will it be worth it? IMO, no, it won't. Most of them will never come. Then, what will you CCF fans want next? Lets say they run the Panoz, then you will say "The cars sound bad, I won't watch until there are turbos", then it will be "Ovals are boring, I won't watch until is is all road & street courses", and it will just keep going on until it becomes a formula car series that you and a small group of fans watched that went bankrupt twice.

I know a lot of die-hard IRL fans who travel race to race who don't like the DP-01. Should we forget their years of support to accommodate you? Same goes for the IRL teams and their years of loyalty. TG made a very generous offer, by far more than he had to, providing teams with chassis, engines & technical support. Wow, what a jerk he is... :rolleyes:

The formula isn't changing this year, nor the next, nor does it need to. If you don't like it, or can't accept that CC isn't coming back after long beach, then bye. :wave:

They always need fans in F!, ALMS, A1GP, your local SCCA club or saturday night short track.

[Marbles]

I've gotta say, I loved the 92-93 Lolas aesthetically. Long, low and sexy.


My favourites as well. The F1 cars from that era were also sweet!

[MAX_THRUST]

The IRL cars looked best in 1996. AFter that things started going a bit wrong.

Bring back the Lolas and Reynards and Swift, and Eagle, and Renske (Penske Reynard). Ahh those were the days, but we are slowly getting back to them.

I'll never like the look of an IRL car until they change it.

[nigelred5]

face it, we have 2 seasons of watching the Dallara, then in 2010 the series will most likely, have at least one new chassis. The IRL ICS has changed a great deal since the current Dallara was designed. It was as far as I know, designed as a 100% Oval track chassis, so the aerodynamics were optimized for ovals bases on the IRL specs at that time. My understanding is it received a suspension, gearbox and moderate aerodynamic upgrade to run on road courses.
The Lolas were always designed as a compromise for all types of tracks, and the DP01 was designed as a road course car, with a possibility it may be used on ovals with the proper package in the future. IIRC, one of the posters here had figures that the current configuration of the DP01 was essentially drag limited to the 195-200mph range. Now wouldn't that be a pig on the super speedways?
Sure, a new aero package would speed things up a bit, but going back to sub 200MPH laps on ovals would be very noticeable, and with all of the front wings that CCWs teams lost last season, something would need to be improved dramatically. It's a decent looking car, and it produced some enjoyable racing but it's not the beat all end all and may in fact not be the best choice for the indycars by 2010. It's still going to be a heavily oval weighted series, so we'll need to see what the schedule looks like by then to be honest.



I think we are also missing one important part of the equation. CCWS had to commission the design, whereas I'm assuming any of the manufacturers interested in the 2010 package are shouldering that cost themselves and will recoup the cost through chassis costs.

That said, I still think it is a waste to not seriously consider utilizing a package that has already been designed, built and tested vigorously.

[seppefan]

Just showed by girlfriend and she laughed. She reckoned the Team Aussie looked ok but the crapwagon is just ugly. So we are with it for two years as we need to be watching costs. I can live with that and lets hope the 2010 car is a screamer to look at.

[tbyars]

gofast, your post is right on, IMO.

You know, you really hate to keep making this point, but I guess it will need to be made until some fans finally understand it:

CCWS went bankrupt. It failed. The IRL survived. In the business world, some folks just need to come to accept that, under those circumstances, the side that lost just doesn't get to make the rules. Their rules are why they went out of business in the first place.

[Cartomante]

Bring back the Lotus STP Turbines.

At least they were innovative. I always used to love to see what might show up that was different. It was exciting when there was experimentation and variety -- front engine, rear engine, four bangers, turbines, and those curious Novi machines. They were not always successful, but they were interesting. The days of innovation at Indy are long gone.

[jimispeed]

http://www.indycar.com/multimedia/build_photo.php?photo_id=65512&size=med&time=0.5214976584994662

http://champcarworldseries.com/content/photos/2007/By800/20070722P_0091.jpg

[nigelred5]

Anyone have the pics of the very first team Australia scheme from Sebring with the Kangaroos in the logo? I lost the ones I have when my laptop crashed. I've been rebuilding an old dune buggy and I'm going with the TeamAustralia colors and want to try and incorporate that design into the paint scheme.

the Dallara just looks like a friggin doorstop.

[MAX_THRUST]

I don't think anyoneg moaning about who makes the rules , but as you know all CCWS fans have tended to think of the IRL cars as ugly. YEs its a shame the panoz won't get used. Yes it is a better looking car than the current IRL cars.

Doesn't matter much this year or next year. 2010 we will have new chasis. I'm happy to run with the ugly cars just to see a unified series with full grids, They could all race in shopping carts for all I care its good to see them all back together.

[Brad Dill]

The only two reasons that people are arguing about the looks of the Indy Car are

1. CC fans who have for years hated anything and everything IRL
2. We have by default a spec. series.

Before we all went spec. by default (IRL) or planned (CC). People might complain about the looks of a particular car, but heck if it was fast compared to the "pretty" car, then it was the better. Odd looking cars added spice to the series.

If right now we had three chassis manufacturers and one looked like a Lola, one looked like a DP01 and one looked like the Dalara, nobody would really care how ugly the Dalara was or how ugly the DP01 was, they would be talking about each chassis' capability on different tracks.

It will take a year to fix problem #1. The CC fans that can't or won't get over the split leave and the others become Indy Car fans.

Hopefully the new car in 2010 will fix problem #2 by bringing back competition in the chassis business. (and engine business as well)

[mikiec]

Apart from the obvious paint-scheme differences, show that to the average Joe Public and they probably wouldn't notice much difference except perhaps that the nose is higher on one and they might notice that there's no air intake/high engine cover on one of them, but essentially, they both look like race cars.

Personally, I prefer the DP-01, but I'm not the type of person that the sponsors are mostly targetting so my opinion doesn't really matter.

[MAX_THRUST]

Its funny the more IRL fans go on about CCWS fans not being happy with the split more I think its the IRL fans that are the issue. Why are you still going on about the split??? It's old news now. WE are one, you are now in bed with ccws fans as much as we are in bed with TG. I don't have a problem anymore as TG finnaly did the right thing. Some parts of CCWS did the right thing too. Now we can move forward, that is what this forum is about and not bashing the old series.

If I wanted to bash the old series I'd say the IRL and CCWS was CRAP, CART was great. What's the point CART is dead.

The Dallara is ugly. I didn't think much of the Panoz Dpo0284ujds whatever it was called either. I'm sad and old and like the old Lolas and Reynards, thats just me. I liked the big cars. The smaller IRL and CCWS cars just didn't look as good as the CART cars, even though the sizes werent that much different.

[bennybigb]

Why don't all the ChampCar fans come back in 2010?

That's my plan, the current IRL cars are a joke! I'm not going to waste 2 years hoping TG will fix what has been broken in the IRL since 1997. I'm expecting the 2010 car to be every bit as bad as the current car. I hope I'm wrong, I would love to follow a formula car series in North America, but only if the series is worth watching.

Everyone around here acts as if they don't have a choice with the new series, but unless you work in the industry, then you have a choice. There are many great racing series in America and worldwide. Pick a new series to follow, just remember to dust off those old CART/ChampCar dvds every now and again.

[champ car dave]

I agree the car is ugly. However I can live with it for the next two years. The look of the car is only part of the
race. As long as the racing action is good, (25+ cars will make oval races better to watch). I can and will live with it. Because this is the closet thing we have had to what CART really was in the last five years.

[rpralon]

Why are the IRL cars so ugly??

For you do not feel sorry when they hit the wall !!!

[fan-veteran]

Dallara definitely has a good looking close-ups, for example the frontal. And i cannot find DP01 to be cool, rather i find it ugly also, it looks like circa 2000 F1 car with turbo. But in any case, the color scheme can make a good look.

Current IRL Dallaras are the OW racing cars with the highest safety. Even more - i think they are in fact the safetiest racing cars in the world (correct me with arguments if you think i'm wrong). In that viewpoint they are the pinnacle of high-tech in the field of the racing safety.

[nigelred5]

Dallara definitely has a good looking close-ups, for example the frontal. And i cannot find DP01 to be cool, rather i find it ugly also, it looks like circa 2000 F1 car with turbo. But in any case, the color scheme can make a good look.

Current IRL Dallaras are the OW racing cars with the highest safety. Even more - i think they are in fact the safetiest racing cars in the world (correct me with arguments if you think i'm wrong). In that viewpoint they are the pinnacle of high-tech in the field of the racing safety.

See, what you like about the Dallara is what I think is the ugliest part of it, that low flat pinched down nose that manes the whole car look like a wedge or maybe more correctly, a wing running backwards. I don't care for the way th efront end comes up nad then the cockpit is a bump sort of like the early to mid 70's F1 cars where the cockpit wasa little more than an aluminum shroud screwed down to the actual chassis.


I won't touch the safest car arguement with a ten foot pole. There are lots of changes that can be made to the dallara to make it safer and eliminate the kiting issue. There's at least two locked down threads to re-hash the safety discussion. It's a dangerous sport.

[nanders]

See, what you like about the Dallara is what I think is the ugliest part of it, that low flat pinched down nose that manes the whole car look like a wedge or maybe more correctly, a wing running backwards. I don't care for the way th efront end comes up nad then the cockpit is a bump sort of like the early to mid 70's F1 cars where the cockpit wasa little more than an aluminum shroud screwed down to the actual chassis.

"70's F1 cars"

That's what I've thought all along. If you look at the 1979 F1 field, there are a number of car that are very similar to the current Dallara.

[garyshell]

who says the 2010 package is going to be that much better than the DP01. you don't think there is going to be cost associated with developing this so called 2010 package. million of dollars and a great deal of time has already been spend on the development DP01. why not take advantage of that. the DP01 is cheaper to buy than the current IRL car, and there are probably close to 30 chassis already built that are only 1 year old. it would be alot cheaper to develop an oval package for the DP01 then to develop a whole brand new car. why not use the DP01 for a say a 3 year period, remembering it's still a new car, and by doing this it will reduce cost now and give the powers to be more opportunity and time to develop this next generation car. IndyCar needs a new car asap. the current inventory is old, and as Champcar found out at the end of the life cycle of the Lola, there are safety factors involved for drivers, teams and fans as equipment failed because of fatique.

How do you know that this very idea is not under consideration FOR 2010? Because it appears that someone at ICS actually understands the concept of managing PR, they are keeping the focus clearly on the here and now. Public talk of the 2010 package won't come until there is a lull in the activities that they can promote, which won't be until the end of this season. But I think we can be damn sure that conversations are being had right now about the direction of the 2010 package. The IRL can't wait until 2010 to give the manufactures a list of "must haves" for the new package.

Gary

[cartpix]

I liked Trans Am. I liked the wide bodied Trans Am cars. I liked the hour glass shape & the curving hips. They were right sexy. Then they changed the rules & came up with those ugly stock bodies with funky flairs. Did I get childish & say I wasn't going to follow all the drivers & teams, I loved, because I thought the cars were ugly. NO! I continued to watch until there was no more. I wish I could watch Trans Am, ugly cars and all. But I can't.

I still have a chance to watch drivers & teams, from CCWS, going head to head with drivers & teams from the CART of old. Ugly cars and all. I've watched some pretty ugly car, in my time, & the IRL car isn't all that ugly in comparision. I just like to watch race cars going by!

To quote Sanguin, "It's about the racing and the racing is good". If there is racing & it's going on around me, it's good.

Jeff

[bennybigb]

Everyone has different tastes, and everyone has different reasons for being a fan. I have found that the main reasons I followed CART/ChampCar were because I loved the cars and loved the venues.

Maybe I am not a racing fan, but a racecar fan. I just don't get excited about IRL cars. I don't get excited about GrandAm cars either, or stock cars.

It can be great racing, (I'm told the Grand Am is), but if the cars don't excite me, then I am not interested.

That is why I am not an IRL fan, not becuase I am childish, but because I do not like the product.

[nanders]

How do you know that this very idea is not under consideration FOR 2010? Because it appears that someone at ICS actually understands the concept of managing PR, they are keeping the focus clearly on the here and now. Public talk of the 2010 package won't come until there is a lull in the activities that they can promote, which won't be until the end of this season. But I think we can be damn sure that conversations are being had right now about the direction of the 2010 package. The IRL can't wait until 2010 to give the manufactures a list of "must haves" for the new package.

Gary

Remember they have that college design "thing" going on. They are not going to say anything until it comes to fruition. However, I have seen some of those designs and if you think the Dallara is ugly, you ain't seen nothing yet.

[nanders]

I liked Trans Am. I liked the wide bodied Trans Am cars. I liked the hour glass shape & the curving hips. They were right sexy. Then they changed the rules & came up with those ugly stock bodies with funky flairs. Did I get childish & say I wasn't going to follow all the drivers & teams, I loved, because I thought the cars were ugly. NO! I continued to watch until there was no more. I wish I could watch Trans Am, ugly cars and all. But I can't.

I still have a chance to watch drivers & teams, from CCWS, going head to head with drivers & teams from the CART of old. Ugly cars and all. I've watched some pretty ugly car, in my time, & the IRL car isn't all that ugly in comparision. I just like to watch race cars going by!

To quote Sanguin, "It's about the racing and the racing is good". If there is racing & it's going on around me, it's good.

Jeff

Dear IndyCar fans, It could be worse. Just think about those sexless Grand Am prototypes. I call that the Ugly Car series. In fact I think they should name that series "UglyCar." :p We have a chance at getting a new car that might be better looking. It's never going to happen over there. See, you got it good.

I agree with bennybigb too. But I'll watch IndyCar.

[-Helix-]

who says the 2010 package is going to be that much better than the DP01. you don't think there is going to be cost associated with developing this so called 2010 package. million of dollars and a great deal of time has already been spend on the development DP01. why not take advantage of that. the DP01 is cheaper to buy than the current IRL car, and there are probably close to 30 chassis already built that are only 1 year old. it would be alot cheaper to develop an oval package for the DP01 then to develop a whole brand new car. why not use the DP01 for a say a 3 year period, remembering it's still a new car, and by doing this it will reduce cost now and give the powers to be more opportunity and time to develop this next generation car. IndyCar needs a new car asap. the current inventory is old, and as Champcar found out at the end of the life cycle of the Lola, there are safety factors involved for drivers, teams and fans as equipment failed because of fatique.

I'd rather wait until 2010 and hope they get it right. I don't care much for exchanging one ugly car for another ugly car. Not sure where people get the idea that the DP-01 looks good. Better than the Dallara, sure. But it still looks like some crappy European ladder series car.

I find the idea of a completely revolutionary design and new era of open wheel racing in 2010 exciting. By 2010 the DP-01 will be outdated anyway.

[grungex]

jimi, I DARE you to stand at ANY corner at Seabring and watch the action, and tell me which car is running a 52.5 second lap and one that is running a 51 second lap. That is just plain silly.


How about a 52.5 vs. a 49.8 second lap?


I still maintain that if you view these two times by the same car on the same track 24 hours apart, there is not a snowball's chance in hell you will be able to tell which run was which without a stopwatch.

That wasn't at all what tybars was saying, though, was it? Heck, let's wait a year between sessions, I'm sure it will be even more true.

[garyshell]

That wasn't at all what tybars was saying, though, was it? Heck, let's wait a year between sessions, I'm sure it will be even more true.


No. But the point I am trying to make is that let's say that folks saw CCWS at Edmonton last year and this year they will see the ICS cars. There is no way they will ever perceive the difference in speed. So this entire argument over that fact that the Dallara's are slower doesn't really matter at all. So what if they are slower? Who will care that they are slower? Only a handful of folks who carry a stopwatch to the track and compare times from one year to the next. I carry one when I go, but I only use it to compare times for that day.

Gary

[grungex]

Fair enough. But obviously lots of people DO care, otherwise this topic would not come up so often. ;)

That said, I also see many posts from Indy 500 fans who do claim to be able to tell the difference between the speeds of the 230mph era cars and the 215mph era cars, etc., etc.

[garyshell]

Fair enough. But obviously lots of people DO care, otherwise this topic would not come up so often. ;)

That said, I also see many posts from Indy 500 fans who do claim to be able to tell the difference between the speeds of the 230mph era cars and the 215mph era cars, etc., etc.


You are right, it does come up. But only when folks are here "bench racing". Hell, we're just a bunch of gearhead geeks or we wouldn't be here at all. We live and die by such minutiae, but we need to remember damn near no one else on the planet does.

Gary

[tbyars]

That wasn't at all what tybars was saying, though, was it?

No, but I stand by what I said, even at your interval.

Let me do some exemplar math for you. You are at a track where the cars lap on average every 60 seconds. Let's say you are at a corner where you can see the cars for about 6 seconds, or a 10th of a lap, time wise. And that actually a point where you can see the cars for quite a while. The IRL car laps in 62 seconds, the Panoz laps in 58 seconds (basically the interval you used.) That's a difference of 4 seconds. But time wise, you are only seeing 1/10 of a lap. That means, on average, there will be .4 seconds difference in the two cars from the time you first see the car until the time you last see the car.

Now take a stopwatch and practice hitting the interval of .4 seconds. Once you have that interval in mind, please tell me, with a straight face, that you can perceive that interval visually while watching a race car during that 6 seconds you can see it.

You may perceive the IRL car as slow because you have been told it is running 4 seconds a lap slower than the Panoz, and you have been programmed - yes, I said programmed - to perceive that as going slow.

Actually, nothing could be further from the truth.

I'm not going to encourage you to agree with me here. Next time you are at the track, prove it to yourself. You'll find yourself saying to yourself, more often than not, "boy, I thought that lap was a lot slower/faster than it really was."

[grungex]

At what point does your argument fall apart? Clearly there will be an interval where you will be able to tell the difference. I have seen both the Atlantics and Champ Cars race at San Jose, 55 seconds/lap vs. 49 seconds/lap. Are you suggesting I can only tell the difference because I am "programmed" to think I can?

[downtowndeco]

At what point does your argument fall apart? Clearly there will be an interval where you will be able to tell the difference. I have seen both the Atlantics and Champ Cars race at San Jose, 55 seconds/lap vs. 49 seconds/lap. Are you suggesting I can only tell the difference because I am "programmed" to think I can?


Geeze man, let it go already. So CC used a different formula and the cars were a little faster. Fine. Don't watch the IRL then. Go watch CC. Oh. That's right. There aren't any more CC races because they just went BK for the second time, a feat not many series can claim.

It's stupid, really. Basically what you're saying is those who enjoy F1 can't enjoy CC because it slower than F1 and those that like CC can't enjoy the IRL because it's slower than CC and those who enjoy the IRL can't enjoy WoO because it's slower than the IRl and those that enjoy WoO can't enjoy Midgets because they're slower than WoO.

Let it go already. We get it. The spec CC was a tick faster than the spec IRL car. I say was because in about a month there won't be any CC any longer.

[Indy500'79]

I agree that the DP01 looks better than the Dallara, but I also agree with others here that it does look like a European ladder series car. I am confident that there is an overwhelming desire in the entire paddock to get a better design in 2010. Let's enjoy what we've got for the next two years, then we can hope for something new and exciting.

[grungex]

Geeze man, let it go already. So CC used a different formula and the cars were a little faster. Fine. Don't watch the IRL then. Go watch CC. Oh. That's right. There aren't any more CC races because they just went BK for the second time, a feat not many series can claim.

It's stupid, really. Basically what you're saying is those who enjoy F1 can't enjoy CC because it slower than F1 and those that like CC can't enjoy the IRL because it's slower than CC and those who enjoy the IRL can't enjoy WoO because it's slower than the IRl and those that enjoy WoO can't enjoy Midgets because they're slower than WoO.

Let it go already. We get it. The spec CC was a tick faster than the spec IRL car. I say was because in about a month there won't be any CC any longer.

I didn't say any of the above crap you're trying to attribute to me, but thanks for sticking your nose in. :rolleyes:

[fan-veteran]

Who said CC was faster, everybody have seen Dallaras doing 228mph at last (2007) Indy :D

[downtowndeco]

I didn't say any of the above crap you're trying to attribute to me, but thanks for sticking your nose in. :rolleyes:

Go read your posts. Does it sound like you're going to be able to enjoy the IRL with it's sloooooooow cars?

[grungex]

Go read my posts and please point out where I said, or even implied, any of the crap you posted. Thanks.

[Champcar4life]

I still maintain that if you view these two times by the same car on the same track 24 hours apart, there is not a snowball's chance in hell you will be able to tell which run was which without a stopwatch.

Gary

If I am right someone by the name of Robin Miller stated that the Panoz was nearly three second faster from a test that both an Champcar team and a irl team ran at Homestead on the road course.

[Champcar4life]

The only two reasons that people are arguing about the looks of the Indy Car are

1. CC fans who have for years hated anything and everything IRL
2. We have by default a spec. series.

Before we all went spec. by default (IRL) or planned (CC). People might complain about the looks of a particular car, but heck if it was fast compared to the "pretty" car, then it was the better. Odd looking cars added spice to the series.

If right now we had three chassis manufacturers and one looked like a Lola, one looked like a DP01 and one looked like the Dalara, nobody would really care how ugly the Dalara was or how ugly the DP01 was, they would be talking about each chassis' capability on different tracks.

It will take a year to fix problem #1. The CC fans that can't or won't get over the split leave and the others become Indy Car fans.

Hopefully the new car in 2010 will fix problem #2 by bringing back competition in the chassis business. (and engine business as well)


I just think its ugly, I seen a pic of the Panoz Gforce and one up close at an shop here in Indy and I like it, was ok and the Dallara at one time was ok,even as a Champcarfan I can say it was okay, but the pics I see of the current one isn't so hot.

[garyshell]

I still maintain that if you view these two times by the same car on the same track 24 hours apart, there is not a snowball's chance in hell you will be able to tell which run was which without a stopwatch.

Gary


If I am right someone by the name of Robin Miller stated that the Panoz was nearly three second faster from a test that both an Champcar team and a irl team ran at Homestead on the road course.

He may have. To me that means nothing. See my quote above. No one will be able to tell that from one day to the next let alone one year to the next on the same course. Therefore to anyone except a "number cruncher with a racing almanac" it will not matter one whit.

Gary

[jimispeed]

The Dallara also looks dangerous for a driver if he was to run up underneath someone. It looks pretty vulnerable to the drivers head.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Far be it from me to toss some Gas on the fire, but hey, that is what this forum is for. First off, I think the DP-01 is a good looking race car. This put down that it is a "ladder series" car from Europe is a lot of nonsense. Park it near one of the previous generation Lola's and you can see it is an evolution of that basic design. If you liked the Lola, you like the DP-01. Most of the detractors of the DP-01's styling will then turn around with a straight face will tell you that the Dallara is a good looking race car. It is a strange design that looks like nothing else in the OW world save the first generation Formula Mazda's. It has improved over the years with the downforce package but I give the DP-01 the nod on looks.

That said, it is academic isn't it? First off, the IRL is going to stick with their design. They are the ones holding the cards in this poker game and the stronger teams, and Penske, Andretti, Ganassi are not going to toss away all they know so Carl Haas can kick their @sses. It wouldn't matter if the IRL car was hideously grotesque and the DP was the most beautiful thing on wheels, it was a white elephant the day the merger was signed.

Second of all, as it should be pointed out, most cars are designed to be very aero effcient for the series they are entered in to fit within a set of rules or "box". The wind tunnel dictates what the car looks like pretty much once the rules are set. Styling is NOT a factor since the rules dictate the limits of the design and the wind tunnel dicates most of it. So the IRL car isn't your cup of tea? Fine....it isn't mine either but I will still watch. The Dallara isn't the ugliest race car ever, but it isn't much to look at. So? The racing it has provided hasn't been all bad, and since I watched the IRL as much as my stomach could take (ABC ESPN being the "Ick" factor, not the cars) and I will keep watching as much as my distaste for the broadcasters will allow. You cannot tell how fast the cars are visually if you are live at the track vs what the other series provided. Unless there is a great differential in speed, you cannot tell. Furthermore, NASCAR is 20 to 25% slower and yet they are the most popular form of motorsport on the continent BY FAR. If you provide good racing, the interest will be there.

What a race car looks like is important to the hardcore gear heads, but we are about 2% if that much of the audience watching. I find most of the people who defend the Dallara's looks are the IRL fans and the DP-01 are old CCWS fans. Fine...I can live with it, but it wont change the reality. Roger Penske wont be tossing out his Dallara's because Carl Haas likes the look of his DP-01. It aint happening and it is the way things are. If you don't like it, I suppose there is always the ALMS, but us really hardcore race heads watch damn near everything anyhow. Heck, Grand AM cars are growing on me because of the racing they provide and they are the most mishappen lumps of clay going. No IRL Dallara is going to scare me off....

[CCWS77]

the side that lost just doesn't get to make the rules. Their rules are why they went out of business in the first placeThe problem with many of you IRL fanatics is that you want to continue the split and stamp out any trace of CCWS from appearing in your series even in the face of suggestions that are better then the status quo. If irradication of all things Champ Car is the priority in terms of actually finding a way to improve the Indycar series then this whole thing is totally fated to fail.



If you don't like the product, then just remove it from your life. It's really that easy.

It's not about opinions. Everyone is entitled to those. It's about thinking you can use those opinions to hold a racing series hostage because you are not getting your way.Take your own advice. Im freely telling you I might remove Indycar racing from my life. The question is does anyone care to improve it and actually gain more fans? The narrowminded responses on this board are that you won, you have the series you want and you will fight to keep it that way even if the the status quo is doomed to fail. Hate CCWS all you want but it is still the truth they tried multiple things to reinvigorate the sport. Unfortunately it failed. The least they could do at this point is look at all the things CCWS did and had and say what here is better that we can adopt. What has IRL done? It sticks to the same thing as always and will therefore continue on being no better or different then last year.

[/color][/size][/font]
I agree that the DP01 looks better than the Dallara, but I also agree with others here that it does look like a European ladder series car. I'm not sure why that is a negative for the DP-01. We have all just agreed the IRL Dallara is a strange abberation in racing.



Just suck it up and wait a couple years. Sheesh. The Dallaras aren't THAT bad. You guys act like they're lawnmowers or something. If NASCAR is so popular with what they run, Indycar should have no problem.Isnt that the point? The Dallara are fragile cars designed to best NASCAR by 30 MPH but are less crash friendly. How do you even compare this to a more nimble race car that is perhaps less designed around top speed. These assertions that you have to be a fanatic with a stopwatch to measure the 3 second different lap time is the only way anyone can notice the difference is so much nonsense. There is a clear difference one is a clusmy machine designed to have a high top speed, the other is a more nimble racer. You do not need a stopwatch to see this.

Even if you regaurd the opinions of some fans as useless well then fine, you can go by the words of people like Andretti and Vasser who are in the know and when the truth slipped out they classified that Dallara as a clumsy racer.

We can joke that the Dallara is "not that bad" and is not a lawnmower but frankly I think some of you would not even mind if they raced lawnmowers as long as it happened at Indianapolis on memorial day and you could call it a 'spectacle' you would be happy.

[tbyars]

The problem with many of you IRL fanatics is that you want to continue the split and stamp out any trace of CCWS from appearing in your series even in the face of suggestions that are better then the status quo. If irradication of all things Champ Car is the priority in terms of actually finding a way to improve the Indycar series then this whole thing is totally fated to fail.

You know, that is the second or third time "CC fanatics" have tried to make that unsuccessful argument in this thread.

I would just point to the content and attitude of the initial post in this thread to dispel that silly notion. That certainly wasn't an "IRL fanatic" who made that post. Pot, meet kettle.


Take your own advice. Im freely telling you I might remove Indycar racing from my life. The question is does anyone care to improve it and actually gain more fans?

Well, I can tell you that if I felt like you, that is exactly what I would do. The fact is, and it's what you guys just cant comprehend, if this thing had gone the other way, I could have lived with the resulting series just fine. I'd have still been a fan.

In terms of gaining more fans, I agree with gofast in this regard. I don't think TG should lift a finger to gain the "new fans" you are referencing. True "NEW FANS" to the sport....sure. But to gain the "new fans" who once populated CCF that you are talking about, it's just not worth it. Watch it if you want, go elsewhere if you don't. It's a cost of doing business I think everyone knew would need to be faced once this ended. I don't think one finger should be lifted, however, to placate the folks at CCF and the like. They have earned no possibility of any respect, ever, from TG or his associates. You just have to deal with that.

[tbyars]

As usual, Mark, a well reasoned and good post that is straight to the point.

[TU Homer]

I still maintain that if you view these two times by the same car on the same track 24 hours apart, there is not a snowball's chance in hell you will be able to tell which run was which without a stopwatch.

Gary


Can't help it that you can't see the differences in accelerations. The difference is a nimble vs. a less than nimble car.

Do you see the difference between the Porsche Spyder and the Fabcar Pontiac?

[TU Homer]

So are you willing to open your wallet and pay for all the testing, kink-working-out, and all the chassis' for every team? Hope you got a few million laying around and some time on your hands. I'm sure the IRL wouldn't mind your charity work. If you start now you might even have the cars ready for the 2009 season. Then we'd see all your hard work and money be useful for one whole season until the new package is ready! :eek:

To expect the IRL to put out so much effort and money into a car that will be considered outdated in a few years when they're planning on getting an entirely new package in 2010 is laughable.

Just suck it up and wait a couple years. Sheesh. The Dallaras aren't THAT bad. You guys act like they're lawnmowers or something. If NASCAR is so popular with what they run, Indycar should have no problem. I'm sure the thousands of casual fans will make up for the few hardcore whiners like yourself who turn their back on the series because of a few seconds difference in lap times.

IMO, the Dallaras are ugly and slow. I don't like the airbox.

listen, I enjoyed my type of race car for decades. I liked the DP01, as an evolution of the indycar. The IRL car is not the same, though it is proposed as the replacement. I can't help it that you can't see the difference. I can, and I don't like it.

[TU Homer]

No, I'm NOT an engineer. Given that, if you are, I take it you were on the Elan design team and know, beyond a doubt in the world, that the Panoz is as safe or safer than the current Dallara on a high speed, high banked oval. That is what you are saying, correct?

And, of course, based on your statement, you are also willing to tell us that modeling is NEVER wrong when translated to the real world, right? You are willing to bet the lives of the drivers on that, right?

You know, CART/CCWS had that exact attitude once before. They ended up canceling a race because of it an hour before the green was supposed to drop.

Once again, officials from IMS looked at the car, and didn't like what they saw. The have the ultimate responsibility for the safety of the drivers in the races they sanction, and they have chosen not to use the car. That says volumes more to me that the absolute nonsense we are hearing from so many that the car should be used because they think it "looks" better, a totally subjective aesthetic criteria that has NOTHING to do with engineering.



I'm sure a lot of that same reliable data and theory with the Panoz went into designing the fuel cell and roll hoops as well. How'd that turn out? Oh, yes, I remember...in practice, there were "a few kinks" to work out there, too.

Bottom line, however, is that you have proven my basic point with Rob. It just isn't as simple as putting an oval aero kit on the cars, building 40 or so more of them and going racing.

Modeling is not a guess. It is based on science and decades of reconcilation with actual results.

No, modeling is not a guarantee that everythign will work perfectly out of the box. what it does is provide a trajectory on the design, with a given series of requirements. Actual feedback is needed, of course, to complete the designs, but the models are very good. I agree the DP01 out of the box had quality issues. But those were addressed. I also acknowledge the DP01 would need additional work. But the basic design appeared to be very quick. I liked the look and thought it was a reasonable evolution of the tradiitional indycar.

Elan is not some fly-by-night organization. They have a proven track record, with proven engineers. If they say they designed the DP01 for ovals, I have no doubt they know how to model them. Remember the G-Force? Those engineers stated the oval kit needed to be completed, but the DP01 was oval capable. You don't believe that because of the affiliation with CCWS.

I run models of all types everyday for my job. Mechanical, electrical, even financial and growth models. I understand how they work.

[garyshell]

How about a 52.5 vs. a 49.8 second lap?


I still maintain that if you view these two times by the same car on the same track 24 hours apart, there is not a snowball's chance in hell you will be able to tell which run was which without a stopwatch.

Gary


Can't help it that you can't see the differences in accelerations. The difference is a nimble vs. a less than nimble car.

Do you see the difference between the Porsche Spyder and the Fabcar Pontiac?

No, the difference is 2.7 seconds. I was NOT talking about accelerations. I was talking about the difference in lap times, nothing else.

And I have little need for the patronizing question, of course I can see the difference between a Porsche and a Fabcar. Can you see the difference between lap times and acceleration?

BTW my challenge still stands, I dare you to tell the difference in the laptimes as I stated before.

Gary

[garyshell]

IMO, the Dallaras are ugly and slow. I don't like the airbox.

listen, I enjoyed my type of race car for decades. I liked the DP01, as an evolution of the indycar. The IRL car is not the same, though it is proposed as the replacement. I can't help it that you can't see the difference. I can, and I don't like it.

We get it, you don't like them. I think they are ugly too. But what do you propose we do for the next two years? I propose we watch what is offered, because all the hand wringing and moaning is not gonna change what is on the track. They are gonna run what they brung, and I'll watch, while hoping that the 2010 car looks a bit nicer.

Gary

[F1boat]

So we should just dump the chassis maker that has been a loyal partner since the start of the series so you can be happy? NO



The question then becomes is it worth trying to bring over the CCF fans? What will the ROI on that be? Will it be worth it? IMO, no, it won't. Most of them will never come. Then, what will you CCF fans want next? Lets say they run the Panoz, then you will say "The cars sound bad, I won't watch until there are turbos", then it will be "Ovals are boring, I won't watch until is is all road & street courses", and it will just keep going on until it becomes a formula car series that you and a small group of fans watched that went bankrupt twice.

I know a lot of die-hard IRL fans who travel race to race who don't like the DP-01. Should we forget their years of support to accommodate you? Same goes for the IRL teams and their years of loyalty. TG made a very generous offer, by far more than he had to, providing teams with chassis, engines & technical support. Wow, what a jerk he is... :rolleyes:

The formula isn't changing this year, nor the next, nor does it need to. If you don't like it, or can't accept that CC isn't coming back after long beach, then bye. :wave:

They always need fans in F!, ALMS, A1GP, your local SCCA club or saturday night short track.
Good post. :)

[jarrambide]

You guys have it all wrong, there has been only one true ugly car.

http://www.wps.com/AMC/1975-AMC-Gremlin/images/Gremlin4.JPG


After the creation of this monstrosity no other car, sports car or vehicle deserves to be call ugly.

[grungex]

Apparently you have never seen its successor, the Pacer, or the Pontiac Aztek. Come to think of it, the Dallara and Aztek are pretty much neck-and-neck in the ugliness stakes...

[nigelred5]

You guys have it all wrong, there has been only one true ugly car.

http://www.wps.com/AMC/1975-AMC-Gremlin/images/Gremlin4.JPG


After the creation of this monstrosity no other car, sports car or vehicle deserves to be call ugly.


No no no, you've got that all wrong.

THIS, is th eugliest car of all time:

http://www.matadorcoupe.com/images/Nojd1.jpg

[DanicaFan]

This is definitely not ugly. Pure beauty and very fast! :)

[nigelred5]

Well, just like people's opinion of it's driver, beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;)

[bblocker68]

Yeah, but the car she's driving is a dog!!! :) (wink, wink, J/K and bla bla bla).

[fan-veteran]

The Indy-cars from 90-s were really cool. Just look at the pit-stop photos representing driver and it's car from Indy '92-'94, especially '95 and '96. That i call really a beauty - cool and fast (up to 240mph), also to mention the cool Penske'94 with 1025hp Mercedes engine.
I am curious what impressoin current Dallaras will make without the airbox, as if they are turbo. :)

[-Helix-]

IMO, the Dallaras are ugly and slow. I don't like the airbox.

listen, I enjoyed my type of race car for decades. I liked the DP01, as an evolution of the indycar. The IRL car is not the same, though it is proposed as the replacement. I can't help it that you can't see the difference. I can, and I don't like it.

Oh, I can see the difference. I just don't think a worse car is that big of a deal and think it's the end of the world like others apparently believe.

So the Dallara is uglier and not as powerful as another car that exists. Whoop-de-doo. Hardly going to keep me from sleeping at night. By that logic I guess Porsche owners should send their cars to the junk yard because they aren't Ferraris. Knowing that the cars at my local track back in my hometown were slower than Formula One didn't keep me from enjoying the racing and being a fan.

The question is... if the cars are so important to CC fans how did THEY ever sleep at night knowing they weren't running Jet Powered rocket cars at Long Beach instead of the crappy by comparison DP-01?

There's always going to be something better. If you like racing for the cars instead of the actual racing maybe Indycar isn't right for you.

[Dennis H.]

Misleading statement. Sure, the laptimes may be about 5% variant, but the characteristics of the IRL car vs. indycar are very different. The indycar is much quicker out of turns, and into turns, while the IRL car gains times on the straighter sections (on the roadcourse set up). The IRL cars are not only ugly, but they appear much slower and less nimble. Their change in speeds (acceleration) is much less than the indycar.


-TU

you have the misleading statement; an IRL is an Indycar, you must be referring to the Champ Car as an Indycar, but you are wrong and have been for some time, sorry. It would be interesting to put that 750 hp motor that the bankrupt series used in the dallara and watch you guys go scurry under a rock.

[CCWS77]

You know, that is the second or third time "CC fanatics" have tried to make that unsuccessful argument in this thread.

I would just point to the content and attitude of the initial post in this thread to dispel that silly notion. That certainly wasn't an "IRL fanatic" who made that post. Pot, meet kettle.

Sure, I see that the thread was started by a "CC fanatic" who wishes changes in the Indy series. Then the "IRL fanatics" respond that they won and dont have to make any compromises with the losers. My point is that if you plan to grow the audience compared to 2007 that isnt exaclty a bright aproach. If you want to make speeches that the "CC fanatics" are not going to be embraced in the merged league fine just don't be surprised when the merged league does not do wildly better then the 2007 IRL. Ussually when one company buys another the whole idea is to keep the customers of both companies, I think we are seeing in this case all that was really ever wanted was to conduct a scorched earth campaign soley for the ability to try and claim a (niche) monopoly.



Well, I can tell you that if I felt like you, that is exactly what I would do. The fact is, and it's what you guys just cant comprehend, if this thing had gone the other way, I could have lived with the resulting series just fine. I'd have still been a fan.Statements like that are proof that the wrong formula has won. Maybe not on the current balance sheets, but in terms of fan interest and growing the sport. I'm not saying this as a 'gotcha', i mean it in an honest analytical sense. Think about it this way, under the current merge reality your response is lets write off the CCfanatics. In a theoretical merge that happened the opposite way take the top 3 or 4 IRL events and 8 cars and add them to CCWS. In that scenario virtually all fans are at least marginally satisified.

As to the notion you can just write off CCfanatics and still grow....Ask yourself if you truely believe that the only reason they can not be converted is because they are stubborn? You have your own side saying the car "isnt that bad" and that everything will be great when some magic formula comes out in 2011. NASCAR must be laughing thier asses off when they see this kind of thinking coming from the IRL


Helix-
The question is... if the cars are so important to CC fans how did THEY ever sleep at night knowing they weren't running Jet Powered rocket cars at Long Beach instead of the crappy by comparison DP-01?
There's always going to be something better. We all know CC was more about what the driver does on raceday then is the IRL. Do we really have debate this? It costs more, they spend more time in the garage and wind tunnels, they have multiple parts packages, and it there are years worth of data gathering and development data built into how competive the car is and many more pieces of the car are open to development and it takes more repairs just to keep the thing on the track.

What I object to more so then just a static comparision of laptimes is that after all that work by the teams it still sets a slower lap then the DP-01. One way to look at this is all the R&D done by say Penske and AGR in the so called guise of being part of the competition in the IRL was done by Panoz for CC before it rolled out of the factory. You really need to explain to me how that money spent in IRL adds a damn thing to the actual race for fans because I dont think I will ever understand it. If anything it takes away from the race by making the outcomes more predetermined. And then you have the gall to post

If you like racing for the cars instead of the actual racing maybe Indycar isn't right for you.Says the hypocritical side of the fence that wants to criticize "Spec" cars in favor of never ending R&D on how to make a piece of junk faster, toss away the MazdaSpeed development ladder and insult the Dp-01 because it looks like a European spec car

[tbyars]

Statements like that are proof that the wrong formula has won.

That's absolutely unadulterated BS. If that were true, care to explain to us why what you consider the "right formula" went BANKRUPT - TWICE.

Your spin ought to be dedicated to politics or criminal law with that kind of BS.


Maybe not on the current balance sheets, but in terms of fan interest and growing the sport.

Bankrupt. TWICE. Consistent 0.0 ratings. Shrinking crowds. Right.


I'm not saying this as a 'gotcha', i mean it in an honest analytical sense.

Bankrupt. TWICE


Think about it this way, under the current merge reality your response is lets write off the CCfanatics.

No, that is not what I am saying. I think anyone and everyone who has followed the ICS as a fan has ALREADY written off the CCFanatics a LONG time ago. F-this, countdowns, threats, death wishes, playing the injury card and making fun of driver injuries and the like will tend to do that for you. Frankly, I'm personally not interested any anyone watching the new ICS who isn't willing to totally disavow everything about that place.


In a theoretical merge that happened the opposite way take the top 3 or 4 IRL events and 8 cars and add them to CCWS. In that scenario virtually all fans are at least marginally satisified.

It's OVER! It didn't happen that way. Champ Car failed, and CART before it. There are reasons for that. Deal with it.


As to the notion you can just write off CCfanatics and still grow....Ask yourself if you truely believe that the only reason they can not be converted is because they are stubborn?

No, I don't think they are stubborn. I think they, as a group, have developed a collective irrational hate against TG and anything with which he was associated that makes them unconvertible. Like gofast said, it's simply not worth expanding the effort. They will never have my respect, that's for sure. I believe the new, consolidated series is better without them. Clear enough for you? I'll welcome them if they want to come along (and there have been plenty who have and have earned my respect as a result), but I, for one, don't need the kicking and screaming from the others about changing things to accomodate their view of open wheel racing if they don't. Like I said, I think that has always been viewed as just a cost of doing business.


You have your own side saying the car "isnt that bad" and that everything will be great when some magic formula comes out in 2011.

Show me where I said that. I HATED the DP-01, and like the Dallara. Perfectly happy with it, and will enjoy ICS racing just as much (not more, not less, JUST AS MUCH) when the new platform comes out in a few years.


We all know CC was more about what the driver does on raceday then is the IRL. Do we really have debate this?

That's just more pure BS, and I see that as nothing more than just more CCF Fanboy Playbook spin. I will certainly debate that - in fact, I simply won't ACCEPT that - every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

After that statement, the rest of your post, along with anything else you have to say, just isn't worth my time.

[jimispeed]

Sorry, but IMO Champcar was more about the drivers and the performance of the cars than the current Dallara.

Simply because the nimbleness of the DP01, and the Champcar Lola that was before it, and probably the power behind it.

It was just a more powerful car, with quicker passing abilities on road/street courses....

The more road/street courses that become a part of Indycar, the more Indycar will need a better performing car if they want the excitement of competition to remain, and fans to be entertained.

In my opinion of course......

[grungex]

The Dallara was never intended as a road course car, and it was only after hundreds of thousands of dollars in updates was it able to fulfill that function.

[tbyars]

The more road/street courses that become a part of Indycar, the more Indycar will need a better performing car if they want the excitement of competition to remain, and fans to be entertained.

Except that, jimi, I believe the ICS will ALWAYS be a series with a majority of oval tracks. And as long as it is, the car will be designed as ovalcentric as well, and adaptable for road courses, just like it is now. Not to mean the performance won't increase all around, but if you are looking for a dedicated road course car like the DP-01, I just don't think you are going to see it.

[BrentJackson]

Except that, jimi, I believe the ICS will ALWAYS be a series with a majority of oval tracks. And as long as it is, the car will be designed as ovalcentric as well, and adaptable for road courses, just like it is now. Not to mean the performance won't increase all around, but if you are looking for a dedicated road course car like the DP-01, I just don't think you are going to see it.

What we are all looking for is a vehicle that works well on both. That CAN be done. The current Dallara was designed for Indianapolis and big ovals, and as such had to be developed heavily for the road courses.

As far as bankrupt twice, Tbyars you better get this straight - the first time was because the Japanese manufacturers were ticked off by the team owners running the series and bailed, which caused CART to have to scramble to survive. The second time was an Australian idiot who wanted a fast payday and a veteran team owner more concerned with giving the finger to TG than making his series work. Had either one had decent management, it would still be here. How many times have I said that before?!

Oh, and that Australian idiot and the hardheaded team owners are now the backbone of the IRL. You think TG can tell Penske and Ganassi what to do? You're dreaming. My friend, TG is now listening to them - which is why the original IRL is long dead, and it's never gonna come back. CART II is rising, and if that doesn't make you think that perhaps people like the CC fans are worth listening to, you'll never figure it out.

[downtowndeco]

What we are all looking for is a vehicle that works well on both. That CAN be done. The current Dallara was designed for Indianapolis and big ovals, and as such had to be developed heavily for the road courses.

As far as bankrupt twice, Tbyars you better get this straight - the first time was because the Japanese manufacturers were ticked off by the team owners running the series and bailed, which caused CART to have to scramble to survive. The second time was an Australian idiot who wanted a fast payday and a veteran team owner more concerned with giving the finger to TG than making his series work. Had either one had decent management, it would still be here. How many times have I said that before?!

Oh, and that Australian idiot and the hardheaded team owners are now the backbone of the IRL. You think TG can tell Penske and Ganassi what to do? You're dreaming. My friend, TG is now listening to them - which is why the original IRL is long dead, and it's never gonna come back. CART II is rising, and if that doesn't make you think that perhaps people like the CC fans are worth listening to, you'll never figure it out.

When you look up "sour grapes" or "poor loser" in the dictonary Brent's post should be referenced.

[Jag_Warrior]

Hopefully the sport will grow out of the semi-pro/club racing status it now has and we'll have more than one "beauty" to look at in a couple of years.

I enjoyed watching Grand Am a lot more than AOWR last season... and those cars are far from beautiful. But when the racing is totally action packed, you can get away with having a "unique" look, IMO.

[BrentJackson]

When you look up "sour grapes" or "poor loser" in the dictonary Brent's post should be referenced.

Pfft. Whatever. You know full well what is going on. CART could have survived had it been run competently. That's not sour grapes. That's fact. I wish the best for the merged series, but to think that the IRL winning is an expression of their success is flat-out wrong. They both have sank, but CART sank further.

[Jag_Warrior]

When you look up "sour grapes" or "poor loser" in the dictonary Brent's post should be referenced.

Why?

[downtowndeco]

Pfft. Whatever. You know full well what is going on. CART could have survived had it been run competently. That's not sour grapes. That's fact. I wish the best for the merged series, but to think that the IRL winning is an expression of their success is flat-out wrong. They both have sank, but CART sank further.


And the hair band "Winger" would have been as big as Led Zepplin if only they had a different management team.

Like tbyars said, CC has gone BK twice. Doesn't that tell you something?

[downtowndeco]

Why?

If I have to explain it to you you're not going to get it.

[Jag_Warrior]

If I have to explain it to you you're not going to get it.


Well, give it a shot anyway. If it goes way over my head, I'll ask for assistance from one of our brother or sister posters.

[!!WALDO!!]

As far as bankrupt twice, Tbyars you better get this straight - the first time was because the Japanese manufacturers were ticked off by the team owners running the series and bailed, which caused CART to have to scramble to survive.

Really, explain in detail. I thought it was Chris Pook sending every nickel because the race shows were all in the red.



The second time was an Australian idiot who wanted a fast payday and a veteran team owner more concerned with giving the finger to TG than making his series work. Had either one had decent management, it would still be here. How many times have I said that before?

What decent management? Until the IPO the car owners called the shots. 25 people whinning and crying to be heard and little owners with votes being jumped by Ganassi and Haas, "Want new cars with current updates? Then vote with me! You want new model Fords? Vote with me!" "But I want to vote in the best interest of the sport" "Get lost, you get nothing!!".

Nope, In 1982 I wrote a piece that CART was destined to die and take open wheel with it as it could only concern itself with its own survival. In the future, as money became more challenging to get, then CART would have to give up control to a small board, 2 track owners, 2 car owners, 2 sponsors and 1 person with no dog in the fight. This way it could govern itself rather than by mob rule. They stayed with the Mob Rule concept even when Andy Craig was given 1 vote. As CEO he could get out voted 25 to 1, thus the Mob Wins.

The second effort was for two guys to put trophies in their own cases and they could not get rid of Carl Haas though. Remember the Las Vegas Night show where Seabass and PT got together and ON CAMERA Gerry Forsythe went to Carl Haas and told him the would be repercussions from this. So an OWNER threatening a COMPETITOR.

In my book that was what ended it. Now Forsythe would act out of his version of getting even.

Humm, I wonder if that is still true today?

[tbyars]

What we are all looking for is a vehicle that works well on both. That CAN be done. The current Dallara was designed for Indianapolis and big ovals, and as such had to be developed heavily for the road courses.

Resulting, now, in a car that does a good job at both type of venues in the Dallara.


As far as bankrupt twice, Tbyars you better get this straight - the first time was because the Japanese manufacturers were ticked off by the team owners running the series and bailed, which caused CART to have to scramble to survive. The second time was an Australian idiot who wanted a fast payday and a veteran team owner more concerned with giving the finger to TG than making his series work. Had either one had decent management, it would still be here. How many times have I said that before?!

Brent, once again, please do not take that condescending tone with me. I need to get "nothing straight." I'm not going to deal with you on that basis. You decide.

The real fact is this. Look at the posts between yours and this post. If nothing else, they will show you that your view of both bankruptcies are very simplistic and not very encompassing.

You may spin the situation any way you would like, but, bottom line, the series known as CART and CCWS both failed. There were MANY reasons that happened, and, whether you like it or not, the IRL was left standing in each case. It was left standing because it had the best foundation and was the stronger of the two series, and had been ever since the checkered flag flew at Indy in 1996, IMO. What has happened in the past few weeks, IMO, has been inevitable since that day.


Oh, and that Australian idiot and the hardheaded team owners are now the backbone of the IRL. You think TG can tell Penske and Ganassi what to do? You're dreaming. My friend, TG is now listening to them - which is why the original IRL is long dead, and it's never gonna come back. CART II is rising, and if that doesn't make you think that perhaps people like the CC fans are worth listening to, you'll never figure it out.

I would hope you would take a little closer look at where the administrative power lies. It's not with the owners like KK and such. That, if you would look at it, is what makes it NOT CART II. Who is revamping the public face of the IRL through media approach and internet presence? It's not Penske. Who is making GREAT preparations on the HDTV front? It's not Ganassi. Who renamed the Indy Pro series? It wasn't KK. And it will be the league administration, with input from all the stakeholders, who will make ultimate decisions about future equipment. This argument of Penske and Ganassi pulling the strings is getting very, very stale, and doesn't relate to current events.

I would also point out that, as we look at things at this point in time, a lot of the "bad rap" the CART and then CCWS owners got looks like it may have come from the very same, singular source. And that source, who seemed to be the obstruction to any kind of growth or the potential of any kind of true merger and, who history may show may be the ultimate blight on American Open Wheel, is NOT part of the consolidated series. So let's see what happens in that regard with him out of the picture. Personally, I'm optimistic.

I never said the CC fans weren't worth listening to. I said the CCF folks need to get used to the fact that they, through the disrespect they have shown to ICS administration and fans all these years (and some continue to show), do not have a stake in the future unless they want to change. Good grief, Brent, you have a guy over there right now threatening a terrorist attack if the IRL ever runs in Cleveland! Is that who you want the administration of the IRL to listen to?

As far as you are concerned, Brent, you will have to decide where you stand there. You were once among their ranks by your choice, and became one of their whipping boys. I wouldn't think you owe them anything.

What I have said, however, is that, like it or not, CC fans are now "stuck" with the vision, plans and strategies of the folks at 16th & Georgetown, because that is now the consolidated home of American Open Wheel Racing. You haven't always agreed with their philosophies in the past, and I see no reason that you will in the future. And they will listen to fans of ANY series only to the point it corresponds with those core philosophies. That's the ultimate result when YOU own the business.

[BenRoethig]

The Dallara was never intended as a road course car, and it was only after hundreds of thousands of dollars in updates was it able to fulfill that function.

Its also at the end of its service life.

[EagleEye]

I agree....... Not only ugly, but also sloooow.


I won't spend my money on tickets until it's worth seeing live. I may view it on television, but I'm afraid it might not be up to what I expect as a fan, and I hope I can get through watching a race. The DP01 was and is a beautiful car that looks fast, and drives fast. Nimble and quick.

This Indycar looks terrible!! Not inspiring at all!!



1. There are not enough DP01's, as there might be about 28 or so. The series required at least 50...
2. No oval kits have been built (front and rear wings, suspension and side pods)
3. No Engine covers built (for the Honda, which requires an air scoop.
4. Lack of Support. The Panoz empire is slowly coming apart (their race team has gone, their race school is gone, and hanging their hopes on the Super league cars).
5. Get over it.

I'm tired of the crying, whining, and resentment towards the series, as this is exactly what everyone from top to bottom wanted.

The timing? Horrible, but we can only thank Jargon KK for that. His long denial and lies about the state of the series, and his stealing backers from other teams has made him the most despised man in the paddock.

With Cotman onboard, the new Indycar should be a winner, so just give it a bit of time. Just as Champcar had to prolong the life of the Lola, the IRL is doing the same with the Dallara.

Looks aside, we have a race coming up in a week with at least 25 cars entered! The demand for tickets is up, and despite the Motegi/LBGP debacle, the season is shaping up to be one of the best we have had since...1995.

In other words, "the glass is half full!"

[jimispeed]

1. There are not enough DP01's, as there might be about 28 or so. The series required at least 50...
2. No oval kits have been built (front and rear wings, suspension and side pods)
3. No Engine covers built (for the Honda, which requires an air scoop.
4. Lack of Support. The Panoz empire is slowly coming apart (their race team has gone, their race school is gone, and hanging their hopes on the Super league cars).
5. Get over it.

I'm tired of the crying, whining, and resentment towards the series, as this is exactly what everyone from top to bottom wanted.

The timing? Horrible, but we can only thank Jargon KK for that. His long denial and lies about the state of the series, and his stealing backers from other teams has made him the most despised man in the paddock.

With Cotman onboard, the new Indycar should be a winner, so just give it a bit of time. Just as Champcar had to prolong the life of the Lola, the IRL is doing the same with the Dallara.

Looks aside, we have a race coming up in a week with at least 25 cars entered! The demand for tickets is up, and despite the Motegi/LBGP debacle, the season is shaping up to be one of the best we have had since...1995.

In other words, "the glass is half full!"


I hope you're right.

The last thing I would want to see is the ultimate death of open wheel racing in North America.

And, yes I've spent alot of money through the years on open wheel. I hope to spend alot more.

[tbyars]

And, yes I've spent alot of money through the years on open wheel. I hope to spend alot more.

Jimi, I hope you do, too.

[TU Homer]

No, the difference is 2.7 seconds. I was NOT talking about accelerations. I was talking about the difference in lap times, nothing else.

And I have little need for the patronizing question, of course I can see the difference between a Porsche and a Fabcar. Can you see the difference between lap times and acceleration?

BTW my challenge still stands, I dare you to tell the difference in the laptimes as I stated before.

Gary

Let me be clear. The IRL cars appear slower in road courses. At the end of the lap, they may only be 5, 10, or 15% slower, which doesn't sound like much. But their weakness is their lack of nimbleness and acceleration out of corners. This is easily perceived, at least by me.

I don't mean to be patronizing, simply trying for another example. Consider the 2002 indycars that ran at CGV in Montreal. Those cars were in the 5 to 15% range slower per lap, yet they appeared much slower than the F1 cars. The reason is because the indycars were much less nimble than the F1 cars, they accelerated much less, and required a longer braking zone.


-TU

[TU Homer]

We get it, you don't like them. I think they are ugly too. But what do you propose we do for the next two years? I propose we watch what is offered, because all the hand wringing and moaning is not gonna change what is on the track. They are gonna run what they brung, and I'll watch, while hoping that the 2010 car looks a bit nicer.

Gary


Watch them. I'm just stating the IRL cars, still having trouble referring to them as indycar (regardless of the name of the series), have lost performance that I can easily see. How am I supposed to embrace that on top of the whole split thingy?

Irony, I still love indycars. Always have, even since they weren't allowed to race at Indy. Merge....

[TU Homer]

Oh, I can see the difference. I just don't think a worse car is that big of a deal and think it's the end of the world like others apparently believe.

So the Dallara is uglier and not as powerful as another car that exists. Whoop-de-doo. Hardly going to keep me from sleeping at night. By that logic I guess Porsche owners should send their cars to the junk yard because they aren't Ferraris. Knowing that the cars at my local track back in my hometown were slower than Formula One didn't keep me from enjoying the racing and being a fan.

The question is... if the cars are so important to CC fans how did THEY ever sleep at night knowing they weren't running Jet Powered rocket cars at Long Beach instead of the crappy by comparison DP-01?

There's always going to be something better. If you like racing for the cars instead of the actual racing maybe Indycar isn't right for you.

You a new fan of racing?

[TU Homer]

What we are all looking for is a vehicle that works well on both. That CAN be done. The current Dallara was designed for Indianapolis and big ovals, and as such had to be developed heavily for the road courses.

As far as bankrupt twice, Tbyars you better get this straight - the first time was because the Japanese manufacturers were ticked off by the team owners running the series and bailed, which caused CART to have to scramble to survive. The second time was an Australian idiot who wanted a fast payday and a veteran team owner more concerned with giving the finger to TG than making his series work. Had either one had decent management, it would still be here. How many times have I said that before?!

Oh, and that Australian idiot and the hardheaded team owners are now the backbone of the IRL. You think TG can tell Penske and Ganassi what to do? You're dreaming. My friend, TG is now listening to them - which is why the original IRL is long dead, and it's never gonna come back. CART II is rising, and if that doesn't make you think that perhaps people like the CC fans are worth listening to, you'll never figure it out.

Also, the formula didn't go bankrupt, the series management did.

Which by the way, that entire argument reeks of fanatism. I could never argue the wrong formula won, just that I don't like the winning formula as much as the losing formula; that and the fact that the winning formula has no continuous technology path to the tradition of indycar racing. TG could have, but he elected to change the car away from the historical technological path.


-TU

[anthonyvop]

BTW my challenge still stands, I dare you to tell the difference in the laptimes as I stated before.

Gary
I can.
I can stand at the Infield of homestead and watch cars enter turns 1, 2 & 3 and pretty much tell you who will be faster and by how much.
The same at Sebring and Daytona.

If what you believe is true then there is no difference between and Champ Car and IndyCar and IPS car and an Atlantics. Then why are they not equally as popular?
Why isn't a Formula BMW as popular as F-1?

[garyshell]

How about a 52.5 vs. a 49.8 second lap?


I still maintain that if you view these two times by the same car on the same track 24 hours apart, there is not a snowball's chance in hell you will be able to tell which run was which without a stopwatch.

Gary


Let me do some exemplar math for you. You are at a track where the cars lap on average every 60 seconds. Let's say you are at a corner where you can see the cars for about 6 seconds, or a 10th of a lap, time wise. And that actually a point where you can see the cars for quite a while. The IRL car laps in 62 seconds, the Panoz laps in 58 seconds (basically the interval you used.) That's a difference of 4 seconds. But time wise, you are only seeing 1/10 of a lap. That means, on average, there will be .4 seconds difference in the two cars from the time you first see the car until the time you last see the car.

Now take a stopwatch and practice hitting the interval of .4 seconds. Once you have that interval in mind, please tell me, with a straight face, that you can perceive that interval visually while watching a race car during that 6 seconds you can see it.

You may perceive the IRL car as slow because you have been told it is running 4 seconds a lap slower than the Panoz, and you have been programmed - yes, I said programmed - to perceive that as going slow.


I can.
I can stand at the Infield of homestead and watch cars enter turns 1, 2 & 3 and pretty much tell you who will be faster and by how much.
The same at Sebring and Daytona.

If what you believe is true then there is no difference between and Champ Car and IndyCar and IPS car and an Atlantics. Then why are they not equally as popular?
Why isn't a Formula BMW as popular as F-1?

Anthony, go back and read the original challenge. Then read tbyars math relating to that challenge and then tell me you can perceive an interval of .4 seconds, because that is precisely what it would take to discern the difference as stated in the original challenge. You might also want to note that the challenge was about observing this difference in speeds 24 hours apart. It was NOT about the comparison you outlined in your reply, now was it? Do you think you can pass the MY challenge?

In answer to your question about popularity, the answer is NOT about an absolute speed differntial. The real answer is much more about marketing than it is technology. But as a motorsports reporter you, of all folks, really should know that.

Gary

[-Helix-]

You a new fan of racing?

Not really, unless you consider the 90's to be recent. Why do you ask?

[-Helix-]

I can.
I can stand at the Infield of homestead and watch cars enter turns 1, 2 & 3 and pretty much tell you who will be faster and by how much.
The same at Sebring and Daytona.

If what you believe is true then there is no difference between and Champ Car and IndyCar and IPS car and an Atlantics. Then why are they not equally as popular?
Why isn't a Formula BMW as popular as F-1?

So you think the cars are the only reason those series are less popular than their counterparts? Wow.

Is the Formula BMW winner considered the World Champion? Does Formula BMW have the best drivers in the world? Does Formula BMW market itself immensely more than Formula 1? Is there more money and corporate investment in Formula BMW?

By that same logic, why isn't ALMS more popular than NASCAR? Or IndyCar more popular than NASCAR if you want closer related examples.

The average fan isn't going to be able to tell the difference from any of those cars you listed. If Atlantics had big name drivers, good marketing, and the Indy 500 it would be the premier American Open Wheel Series even if other series were running better cars.

[!!WALDO!!]

I love it, the CCWS car develops 850 HP and the ICS 650 HP so a car that develops 24% more power is 6% faster tells me that the DP01 is actually slower but what do I know.

[Hoop-98]

Champcars have 750 HP, the Dallara matches up very well in cornering and corner exit acceleration according to section times. The DP01 can accelerate faster at mid to high speed and is faster thru the high speed turns because of more downforce.

The, lack of nimbleness would need to be quantitized, ie slower thru low speed sections to become a "fact".

It isn't.

rh

[fan-veteran]

It is clearly obvious:
1) - DP01 has aerodynamics optimized for road racing, while Dallaras have aerodynamisc for oval racing and later a road package was added.
2) - DP01 is slightly more powerful (725hp vs 650hp) having essentially the same weight
It is not surpise that DP01 would be faster on road/street circuits.

[grungex]

Anthony, go back and read the original challenge. Then read tbyars math relating to that challenge and then tell me you can perceive an interval of .4 seconds, because that is precisely what it would take to discern the difference as stated in the original challenge. You might also want to note that the challenge was about observing this difference in speeds 24 hours apart. It was NOT about the comparison you outlined in your reply, now was it? Do you think you can pass the MY challenge?

Nobody answered my followup question to that challenge (except to denigrate me for asking it).


At what point does your argument fall apart? Clearly there will be an interval where you will be able to tell the difference. I have seen both the Atlantics and Champ Cars race at San Jose, 55 seconds/lap vs. 49 seconds/lap. Are you suggesting I can only tell the difference because I am "programmed" to think I can?

[Ruben Barrios]

"By that logic I guess Porsche owners should send their cars to the junk yard because they aren't Ferraris"

I take offense in that, Porsches are faster than Ferraris... and less expensive too...

[jarrambide]

I love it, the CCWS car develops 850 HP and the ICS 650 HP so a car that develops 24% more power is 6% faster tells me that the DP01 is actually slower but what do I know.

Apparently not much, first of all, the 850 HP is not true, but even if it where true you are once again confusing terms,efficiency and speed are very different things, a car that has a better top speed or that takes less time to complete a lap in a specific circuit is faster, not slower, regardless of the difference in HP of the cars you are comparing, the one that takes less time will always be faster, just pick up a dictionary.

Now, when talking about machine efficiency you are talking about the ratio of the useful work performed by a machine or in a process to the total energy expended or heat taken in, a car that needs lots more of HP and/or fuel and/or you need to spend lots more money to have just a small increase in speed then you are not being inefficient but never slower, to think differently is just not very smart.

[!!WALDO!!]

Not much, first of all, the 850 HP is not true, but even if it where true you are once again confusing terms,efficiency and speed are very different things, a car that has a better top speed or that takes less time to complete a lap in a specific circuit is faster, not slower, regardless of the difference in HP of the cars you are comparing, the one that takes less time will always be faster, just pick up a dictionary.

Now, when talking about machine efficiency you are talking about the ratio of the useful work performed by a machine or in a process to the total energy expended or heat taken in, a car that needs lots more of HP and/or fuel and/or you need to spend lots more money to have just a small increase in speed then you are not being inefficient but never slower, to think differently is just not very smart.

Send me a LINK to this. I guess what I saw over 47 years is a lie to my eyes. I guess the sanctions that restrict racing horsepower are just fooling themselves.

If you are comparing lap times, the DP01 at Indy would be faster. If you could stick a Honda into a DP01 it would be slower than the Dallara. Stick a Cosworth into a Dallara it would be faster than the DP01.

BTW the Cosworth can produce 850 HP but legally when being raced in the CCWS it is restricted for balance and longevity.

I will be waiting for that link.

[jarrambide]

Send me a LINK to this. I guess what I saw over 47 years is a lie to my eyes. I guess the sanctions that restrict racing horsepower are just fooling themselves.

If you are comparing lap times, the DP01 at Indy would be faster. If you could stick a Honda into a DP01 it would be slower than the Dallara. Stick a Cosworth into a Dallara it would be faster than the DP01.

BTW the Cosworth can produce 850 HP but legally when being raced in the CCWS it is restricted for balance and longevity.

I will be waiting for that link.

If you are going to wait for a link take a seat living encyclopaedia (but dont worry, no need to wait for a link, go to any online dictionary and look for the meaning of faster and efficiency), I don´t care about your 47 years of watching racing or the fact you believe to be the owner of racing truth, what I do care is the fact that you seem to have troubles with terms and with simple logic.

What I´m questioning is your own logic, let me quote you verbatim:

Waldo´s 47 years of experience noticed that "I love it, the CCWS car develops 850 HP and the ICS 650 HP so a car that develops 24% more power is 6% faster tells me that the DP01 is actually slower but what do I know.", end of Waldo´s quote.

You are the one that is saying that CCWS car is 6% faster with 24% more power, as I said I will not question the 850 HP part even tough they don´t use the 850 HP during race conditions, what I´m questioning is that you "Waldo the living encyclopaedia" says that if a car is faster but uses lots more of HP to be faster, then that car is in reality slower.

As I said, you are confusing inefficiency (or efficiency) and faster (or slower), if a car is faster, then that car is faster regardless of the conditions, no buts, ifs or whatever, a faster car is faster (you are the one saying it is 6% faster, your numbers not mine).

Now, if the car needs a lot more of HP (24% according to you, again, I will not question your numbers, just your logic) to be a little bit more faster, then that car may be inefficient, but never slower, after all, you are the one saying is 6% faster, how can it be slower regardless of the HP that it needs to be 6% faster?

[Hoop-98]

Taking the engine out of the equation, saying the "cars" have a similar level of performance could be argued, if argumennt is the goal, as it is in bench racing.

Or ask yourselves, what would a CC run with 100 less HP or an Indycar with 100 more.

But that's "bench racing. As they exist today one is about 4 - 6 pct faster on a RC and one has around 35 MPH more top speed.

Either could be changed arbitrarily and likely will as we go forward.

[!!WALDO!!]

If you are going to wait for a link take a seat living encyclopaedia (but dont worry, no need to wait for a link, go to any online dictionary and look for the meaning of faster and efficiency), I don´t care about your 47 years of watching racing or the fact you believe to be the owner of racing truth, what I do care is the fact that you seem to have troubles with terms and with simple logic.

So two Riley Grand-Am Cars on the same Road Course. Same driver, same tires and shock package. One runs a G-A legal Pontiac and the Other an 850 HP Cosworth. Which will turn faster laps?

You can guess and BS and slam my years but give me an answer.

Both cars the dead DP01 and the very much alive Dallara are basically the same cars. So it one has 650 and other (MAKE UP A NUMBER MORE THAN 650 TO FIT YOUR NEEDS) then which one will be faster?

If you want an equal test then strap in the legal Honda engine and bets are the Dallara will be faster.

You are a moderator, you should not be slamming the customers. I asked for proof and got insulted. I taught physics and I bet you never did. Another thing done while teaching people how to fly aircraft.

We are discussing stuff you shut down a thread over, the DP01 is DONE, FINISHED!

[jarrambide]

So two Riley Grand-Am Cars on the same Road Course. Same driver, same tires and shock package. One runs a G-A legal Pontiac and the Other an 850 HP Cosworth. Which will turn faster laps?

You can guess and BS and slam my years but give me an answer.

Both cars the dead DP01 and the very much alive Dallara are basically the same cars. So it one has 650 and other (MAKE UP A NUMBER MORE THAN 650 TO FIT YOUR NEEDS) then which one will be faster?

If you want an equal test then strap in the legal Honda engine and bets are the Dallara will be faster.

You are a moderator, you should not be slamming the customers. I asked for proof and got insulted. I taught physics and I bet you never did. Another thing done while teaching people how to fly aircraft.

We are discussing stuff you shut down a thread over, the DP01 is DONE, FINISHED!
A good friend sent me a PM telling me that it was useless, and as usual he is right. you just don´t get that I´m questioning your use of terms and your logic (or just don´t want to go there cause for you everything is a competition and you don´t go where you can´t win), I´m not questioning anything else, because quoting Mister Robert Hooper "Taking the engine out of the equation, saying the "cars" have a similar level of performance could be argued, if argumennt is the goal, as it is in bench racing.

Or ask yourselves, what would a CC run with 100 less HP or an Indycar with 100 more.

But that's "bench racing. As they exist today one is about 4 - 6 pct faster on a RC and one has around 35 MPH more top speed.

Either could be changed arbitrarily and likely will as we go forward."

And Robert is a guy I (and many others) thrust for our technical info and comparison, a thrust and respect he has earn by giving great info and great insight, instead of trying to be a "know it all" "my 47 years of experience", "I teach physics", etc, etc, etc, as I told you, me (and many others) do not care about your credentials, to us you are just a handle, nothing more, nothing else, I could tell you I have a PHD in chemistry, I can tell you I´m a gorgeous woman of only 22 or I can tell you I´m Tony George, the only thing that counts in the internet world is what I post. (by the way, when I´m in need of physics lessons I just call my cousin, he is a researcher and professor in the University of California, or for tha matters when I´m in need of a chemistry class I call my friend who is a researcher for the University of Delaware, physics teachers don´t impress me much)

By the way, I´m also a customer, moderators don´t get pay, which means we get the same right to post our opinions.

Being that all this is useless, I will also ask you to play nice with others and tone down the know it all, everyone hates me for my intelect, I have the truth attitude.

[TU Homer]

I love it, the CCWS car develops 850 HP and the ICS 650 HP so a car that develops 24% more power is 6% faster tells me that the DP01 is actually slower but what do I know.

Did I just read that correctly? That's the old waldo...

[TU Homer]

Champcars have 750 HP, the Dallara matches up very well in cornering and corner exit acceleration according to section times. The DP01 can accelerate faster at mid to high speed and is faster thru the high speed turns because of more downforce.

The, lack of nimbleness would need to be quantitized, ie slower thru low speed sections to become a "fact".

It isn't.

rh

At the end of the day, the CCWS indycars are faster, and appear faster through sections. I understand the engine is stronger (though smaller); I like that. That's a crucial part of the formla. I only wished they could have afforded to run those engines back at the CART RPM range. I watch the CCWS races since then, and though the lap times are comprable in many instances, those CART years saw cars that were far more exciting to watch. But for a detuned engine, I thought it was great.

I understand your point about my use of the term, "nimbleness". It's a perception of watching the races. Coming out of turns, and into turns, the CCWS indycar looks faster and more nimble. I didn't quantify the angle of the turn.

[Hoop-98]

TU, Homer, my comparison of section times from the Dallara and the Lola showed that there was very little difference in low speed sections, say under 120, above that the margin widens considerably. The same applies to the Lola and the DP01. As far as looks fast, I have never seen a Dallara on a RC, only Champ Cars. I have just tried to compare as many sections as I could find with the same measurement.

rh

[fan-veteran]

Everybode agree that a new car is needed. The current Dallaras IMO is beetter to have another 100hp for road racing. But such a power will put them in 235mph region in Indy (remember 2003 when a 230mph mark was reached). Wether this speeds will be considered safe. And definitely a new engine will be needed, because i don't see how current engines can gain such a power.

[CCWS77]

Bankrupt. TWICE
I already acknowleged it did not work financially. That you bring up bankruptcy tells me you did not really comprehend my point.



Show me where I said that. I HATED the DP-01, and like the Dallara. Perfectly happy with it, and will enjoy ICS racing just as much (not more, not less, JUST AS MUCH) when the new platform comes out in a few years.

I dont believe I said that.

Lets sanitize this to be apolitical:

Product X and product Y are competing. Consumers of product Y rate Y an 8 out of 10 and X a 5 out of 10. Consumers of X rate X an 8 and Y a 1. Now one goes out of buisness then obviously the remaining company wants both sets of customers rather then having them leave the industry. Assuming it is possible to reconfigure your product with characteristics of both X and Y what should the final product look like to accomplish this?

The awnser, given these ratings, is that it should be closer to X to satisfy the most buyers since the average rating is higher for X. Of course you also have to adjust for if there were a different number of total fans for each but note that which one it is that went out of buisness and which one "won" is really not even relevant to awnser the buisness question of how to attract the most buyers in total.


No, that is not what I am saying. I think anyone and everyone who has followed the ICS as a fan has ALREADY written off the CCFanatics a LONG time ago. F-this, countdowns, threats, death wishes, playing the injury card and making fun of driver injuries and the like will tend to do that for you. Frankly, I'm personally not interested any anyone watching the new ICS who isn't willing to totally disavow everything about that place.
Hypocrite, suddenly NOW you dont need us

I posted on these forums here on the Champ Car board and only the Champ Car board until it was merged. Never once did I post on the IRL board. Check my history if that is still possible. Yet I was subjected to never ending posts on the Champ Car board about how great the IRL was and everything that was wrong with Champ Car. Even the stupid MODS permitted this. To whatever extent someone like me bashed IRL it is because you IRL people would not leave us alone and let us have our series. You had to try and convert our fans and take our teams and even some of our events. TG even got the CC amigos to totally defer and concede defeat the whole month of may again and again. Did CCWS ever take things from IRL or torpedo it? Not that Im aware of. They kept trying new things and reached out to brand new fans at new venues. So What has IRL done to improve that it hasnt taken from CC? Even In the end IRL won how? by taking one of the owners themselves away from CC.

But now that CCWS is dead you have no further use for the remaing pieces of it, including the fans, and claim you never did. That is the biggest BS to be found on this forum. Converting CC fans and CC teams has been the IRLs entire buisness plan.


It's OVER! It didn't happen that way. Champ Car failed, and CART before it. There are reasons for that. Deal with it.
I know TG is not suddenly going to announce he is running the DP-01 or something like that. So what? We cant have a conversation about if things had gone differently or how things could be changed for the future? Excuse me if I think it happens to be flawed and short sighted for the IRL to contunie on until 2011 the same as it has in 2007 just as if this never occurred. Now is exactly the time for changes.



No, I don't think they are stubborn. I think they, as a group, have developed a collective irrational hate against TG and anything with which he was associated that makes them unconvertible. Like gofast said, it's simply not worth expanding the effort. They will never have my respect, that's for sure. I believe the new, consolidated series is better without them. Clear enough for you? I'll welcome them if they want to come along (and there have been plenty who have and have earned my respect as a result), but I, for one, don't need the kicking and screaming from the others about changing things to accomodate their view of open wheel racing if they don't. Like I said, I think that has always been viewed as just a cost of doing business.

As long you dismiss the "hate" as "irrational" you are not working to resolve the underlying problems. It sounds as if you believe the negative propoganda from CCF is the main thing that has been keeping IRL down. Notice it has not even entered your mind as a possibility that fans who were not even around for the split or maybe didnt even know who TG was may find his vision for the IRL to be flawed. I can tell you that I myself was not educated about the split at all or why IRL fans were trying to recruit me to thier series until well after I was a fan of CCWS and had rejected the IRL. In fact I rejected the IRL outright, just like NASCAR, before I realized CART existed as something seperate then the IRL.



That's just more pure BS, and I see that as nothing more than just more CCF Fanboy Playbook spin. I will certainly debate that - in fact, I simply won't ACCEPT that - every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

After that statement, the rest of your post, along with anything else you have to say, just isn't worth my time

I see how it works. Someone on your side of the fence says the IRL was more about driver skill, we accept it at face value. I say the IRL is actually more about engineering and setup and you cant be bothered to even read it.

Yes I made it up. It it just my crazy opinion. CC was using a Spec car that was cheaper to operate so obviously that was the more engineering and R&D focused series. That makes perfect sense, your arrogance of anouncing you will not read my posts has convinved me :down:




Originally Posted by !!WALDO!! http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/images/aria/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showthread.php?p=447849#post447849)
I love it, the CCWS car develops 850 HP and the ICS 650 HP so a car that develops 24% more power is 6% faster tells me that the DP01 is actually slower but what do I know.



This thread just makes perfect sense. First we are given the inane challenge to be able to spot a 3 second differnce on the track without a watch. Not do be outdone another poster concludes that the car that has a faster time on a stopwatch is actually slower. I guess IRL fanatics have thier own physics.

Even if what you what you were trying to say is that the chasis is inherently slower if they were altered to have the same power, there is no evidence of that. AS hoop is pointing out already the DP-01 is quicker through fast corners. The Dallara is no doubt faster on long straights with a high top speed. Increasing its HP to match seems unlikely to make it faster through the corners and unlikely to raise the top speed by much as well, at least not in a way that is meaningful on a road course. Think about it, HP is the limiting factor only when you have the foot to the floor. Yet Dallara is already faster on the straight. This would do little to improve its time at Sebring in all likelyhood.

To me this difference in quickness in the corners is perceptible even totally independent of laptimes. I believe the cosworth ran at 700HP without P2P so that is only 50 difference which doesnt really seems like it would account for 3 seconds. Even if you give the DP-01 a 400HP engine, it will get smoked on the straight and have lower laptimes. It will still carry more speed in the corners and not look clumsy like the Dallara. Case in point the Atlantic cars which are quite graceful and oh by the way guess what they have times nearly as close to the Dallara as the Dallara had to the DP-01 at Sebring with only 300HP. If you are going to explain the laptimes of 3 seconds difference being that 8% difference in power then I want to know why it is only about 4 seconds faster then Atlantic with DOUBLE the power.


Really I want to be able to give the IRL a chance but it is like you guys are on a mission to deny reality, pretend everything in the IRL is just supergreat, and fight any changes.

I guess my opinion of the car is all just in my imagination because I hate Tony George irrationally it isnt like people involved think the same thing?

Mario Andretti about aerodynamics:
"Those stupid IRL cars, they have the nose up thing."

Jimmy Vasser about the end of the DP-01
"It runs circles around the Dallara"

Paul Tracy
"Crapwagon"

[V12]

I actually have nothing against the Dallara. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you can't argue it's certainly unique, and the pullrod suspension/ultra low slung nose idea is IMO a novel one in an era of ever increasing uniformity.

The "DP01" meanwhile, is just yet another narrow track, high-nosed spec car designed to order, and as such does/did absolutely nothing for me, regardless of how good its lines are.

Personally I just can't wait to get back racing, and hope for new cars in 2010. And yes I said "cars", not "car".

[tbyars]

I already acknowleged it did not work financially. That you bring up bankruptcy tells me you did not really comprehend my point.

Actually, your entire post just tells me that you have no point outside of the CW Playbook.


I know TG is not suddenly going to announce he is running the DP-01 or something like that.

Good. That tells me 'nuff said.

[indycool]

It would seem that former CC fans want the IRL to be like CC and are scratching for any piece of the IRL they can get, from venues to cars to drivers to suit them.

I doubt TG thinks that his attendance base for the IRL is going to soar with the addition of those from CW. I doubt that TG thinks because supporters of the former CC series thinks the Dallaras are ugly that that is going to influence him or his people in the direction of the series. I doubt that TG and his staff even care about any speed comparisons of the DP-01 and Dallara on ANY type of course because the Honda is rev-limited anyway.

Much ado about nothing.

[jimispeed]

It would seem that former CC fans want the IRL to be like CC and are scratching for any piece of the IRL they can get, from venues to cars to drivers to suit them.

I doubt TG thinks that his attendance base for the IRL is going to soar with the addition of those from CW. I doubt that TG thinks because supporters of the former CC series thinks the Dallaras are ugly that that is going to influence him or his people in the direction of the series. I doubt that TG and his staff even care about any speed comparisons of the DP-01 and Dallara on ANY type of course because the Honda is rev-limited anyway.

Much ado about nothing.


When it comes to the fans, what does Tony George care about then??

[indycool]

Of course he wants fans to enjoy the racing. And of course he's going to attempt to put an exciting product out there for them. Duh. But, IMO, he knows that nobody can ever please EVERYBODY and I would imagine he wrote off a couple hundred CW members or others of their mentality as potential customers a long time ago. In the business he's in, he's going to hafta reach to a much broader picture than a few dissident forum posters.

[Indy500'79]

The "DP01" meanwhile, is just yet another narrow track, high-nosed spec car designed to order, and as such does/did absolutely nothing for me, regardless of how good its lines are.

Personally I just can't wait to get back racing, and hope for new cars in 2010. And yes I said "cars", not "car".

Good points. My earlier comment about the DP01 looking like other cars was meant to mean that I think the new Indycar should have a unique look and style. I also disagree with the other comments that Penske/Ganassi won't let the Dallara go because they will lose their competitive advantage. I think everyone realizes that a new and unique car in 2010 could be a great marketing boost for the series, which is something all the teams will benefit from.

[nanders]

I think everyone realizes that a new and unique car in 2010 could be a great marketing boost for the series, which is something all the teams will benefit from.

It didn't do a damn thing for the CCWS. After a history review it seems that the CCWS would have been better served to continue using the Lola.

IndyCar needs to significantly chance their entire formula where they are totally and distinctively different then any other open wheel or stock car like formula.

The ICS should not chance their formula until there is a specification that clearly separates them with distinction from all other series. Otherwise it's useless. A sideways move to another internal combustion formula just puts lipstick on the pig. And what would they have done to excite present and possibly new race fans? Not a thing.

I have bludgeoned the regulars here with this enough but IMO the ICS should make a properly timed move to Hydrogen Electric and just stay with whatever internal combustion formula they are currently running until the timing is right ... which I think is soon.

Don't get me wrong I love the turbo and hearing the wastegate blow off as they shift, but we are moving into an era of new and different propulsion technologies. The automobile manufactures want to be associated with these new technologies.

[!!WALDO!!]

I also disagree with the other comments that Penske/Ganassi won't let the Dallara go because they will lose their competitive advantage.


IT'S THE RULES UNTIL DECEMBER 31st, 2009. Why is this so difficult to grasp. Changing rules in mid stream causes costs to go up and chaos and teams folding their tents. They locked in this in 2003 until then of the 2009 season. It is called stability. If the CCWS had survived you would have seen the DP01`for 6 seasons also. That was their deal.

[CCWS77]

Actually, your entire post just tells me that you have no point outside of the CW Playbook.



Good. That tells me 'nuff said.


Hmm who is the one suffering from groupthink? The person who takes the time to write out a long post or the one who announces they wont read it because you already know you dont agree

[infoxicated]

Where does it say he didn't read the post?

Looks like you're blinkered to the DP01 and blinkered to a lot of other things as well. You say you want to discuss alternative outcomes and what-if's, but what's the point when you already seem to have made up your mind and you're only welcoming responses from people who are agreeing with you?

And you have the gall to call someone else a hypocrite! :D

[Indy500'79]

IT'S THE RULES UNTIL DECEMBER 31st, 2009. Why is this so difficult to grasp. Changing rules in mid stream causes costs to go up and chaos and teams folding their tents. They locked in this in 2003 until then of the 2009 season. It is called stability. If the CCWS had survived you would have seen the DP01`for 6 seasons also. That was their deal.

I'm not saying they would make the change before 2010. I was responding to the notion that in 2010 Penske and others would try to get TG to keep the Dallara so they can maintain their advantage over the former CCWS teams. Is that too difficult to grasp?

[indycool]

Naw, by then the CC teams will have caught up long before....I'd venture to say, with the track time available at Indy and the number of things that are "spec," that most of them (or the ones which'll EVER be) will be competitive by the end of May.

Already, the IRL has said that the next gen car will have a more open, expanded cockpit, which the FIA has recommended for F1.

[Chaparral66]

Naw, by then the CC teams will have caught up long before....I'd venture to say, with the track time available at Indy and the number of things that are "spec," that most of them (or the ones which'll EVER be) will be competitive by the end of May.

Already, the IRL has said that the next gen car will have a more open, expanded cockpit, which the FIA has recommended for F1.

If they make an expanded cockpit, I hope they mandate an increase in energy asorbing padding to withstand the shock of a hard impact.

[BobbyC]

The fact the cars aren't as nimble or powerful could be a good point on a road course, since the car is in the driver's hands and it might just reward the driver who isn't as good on fresh tires, but is better on worn tires, and just keeps the car in control until it's go time.

[indycool]

It's all part of an expanded safety package in that area, Chap....I don't know all the details.