Tracks that should or should not be on the ICS schedule [Archive]

nanders

17th March 2008, 15:39

Peeps, At indycar.com they have a very long thread going about what tracks you think should be on the schedule for 2009. I'm thinking we should go to the next step and include the ones we think should not be on the schedule. Here's my take. Rip me up.

1. Long Beach, Calif - Great race and a great place to go to. This place should never fall off the schedule.

2. Fontana - Too far out for Southern Californians to want to go to. Nice race course, bad location. There is nothing "cool" around Fontana. This is where the California version of hillbilly's live. That's really not true because the hillbilly's live in Reading. But you get where I'm going with this, right? Still the ICS has telegraphed they want 3 big ovals so okay here's one. But I think they should dump it.

3. Laguna Seca Road Course - This track has 4 daunting corners and is a real drivers track. From the skill point of view it should be on the championship. It is also located in one of the coolest location in the countries coolest state. If you can't find a great restaurant around here , you might be a redneck. Bring this back.

4. Road America - Worst paddock in racing. If there's a little rain it's a mud hole other wise it's dusty. Hotels are a very very long way away. Long straights where the driver has allot of time to think about what he's going to do at the next corner. Only one daunting corner. It's a pure power track. Cars get spread out and end up only racing the track. I could never figure out what was so great about this place. Even with this said it's a popular track and if the promoter could figure out how to pay for it, IndyCar should go. It's a very safe place to race now. It's a keeper if RA can afford it.

5. Surfers Paradise, Australia - Most difficult street course. The speed you must carry through the single lane chicanes is scary. If one car get's it wrong in a chicane he can easily collect many cars following. Another real drivers track. Worlds best location for a race. "Nopi Chicks" are not needed at this race. Will never be removed by the ICS. However ICS must produce.

6. Homestead-Miami Speedway - It's wide and it appears to be safer then the average 1.5 tri-oval. The fast line is not always the low line because you can pinch it down a scrub momentum exiting the turns. My favorite of the 1.5 ovals.

7. Twin Ring Motegi - If AOWR goes out side of North America to race it should be on an oval, if it's available. As long as the promoter pays up, this should stay on the schedule. But, will it stay on the schedule? If Honda leaves, will this track stay on the schedule. I'm calling this marginal for the long term. We should know where Honda is at after the Indy 500.

8. Indianapolis 500 - 1 of 3 Big ovals .... you know it's Indy.

9. The Milwaukee Mile - The prototype 1 mile oval. A better pit lane would be cool. Can the series put butts in the seats enough for this to go the distance. Will "blendification" bring them back. It may be over for IndyCar here. Will they hang in here to rebuild this event? I'm rating this as marginal. I would not be surprised to read that the ICS would dump this track.

10. Texas Motor Speedway - How could this not make the schedule? However, I think they should dump this "meat grinder." I have a real tough time watching the stars of the series careers come to an end as they grind body parts down against the fence. I really dislike this place and have a very hard time watching a race here.

11. Richmond International Raceway - I dig the short ovals. This is a keeper ... if Richmond keeps on buying it.

12. Watkins Glen International - At least one more year, but they should dump this place. This is still the most dangerous road course in North America. Turn one, the "outer loop" and the heal of the "boot" are banked way too much for these kind of cars. When they exit these corners and are trying to get on the throttle they risk a spin as the car un-weights. The worst thing about this place is how close the Armco is to the track and the lack of barriers that are appropriate for IndyCars. Remember when Paul Tracy nosed through the Armco at Road America? Watkins Glen is just waiting for a serious injury do to an IndyCar knifing through the Armco. When it happens, it will be nasty.

13. Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course - A classic IndyCar road course. With Rahal in the series now and "blendification" underway, along with the best road course fan facilities in America, this place is a keeper. I firmly believe this is a place where IndyCar should commit for the long term. Even if it means a few lean years. But I bet this place makes a comeback.

14. The Raceway at Belle Isle Park - Last year went along way in showing that this track needs to be on the schedule. It's a great street course now. Look for it to stay on the IndyCar schedule for a long time. I do hear from some people that the sight-lines are bad and all you see if a car zoom by in front of you.

15. Infineon Raceway - I have a hard time with this place because I don't see it as a traditional IndyCar track. If Laguna came back on the schedule could this place still be on the schedule? Are Laguna and Infineon too close together. With the population of California probably not. If the promoter keeps paying I'd say it's a keeper.

16. Kansas - Another "meat grinder." But there are allot of people showing up for this race even though the race is marginal to boring. Last year once the leaders started lapping the field it made it very difficult for the fans to follow what was going on. I was also amazed at how many really old guys that were at this race. If the promoter keeps paying they will probably continue to stick with this track. Ask Ryan Briscoe if he wants to race there? It was scary watching everyone having to dodge Milka.

17. Lauzitring - IndyCar should go here. Remember that 2002 CART race during SeaBass' first season where he raced Mario Dominguez? That was one of the best oval races of all times.

18. Phoenix - classic IndyCar track. Figure out a way to get this back on the schedule.

19. Pocono - This track was designed for IndyCars. Please get this back on the schedule.

20. Cleveland - How could you let this fall off the schedule?

The ones I don't think should make it.

21. Edmonton Street Course - Promoter has yet to make money. How can you possibly lose money and stay on the schedule? This one will be a "goner" as soon as the contract is up.

22. Portland Road Course - As witnessed at the Champcar races, Portland no longer cares about AOWR. Who knows who's fault it was, but unfortunately this track does not have enough mometum to stay on the schedule. The Promoter would have to pay up for multiple years before you could make a hole in the schedule for this one. Goners.

23. Streets of St. Petersburg - It's hard to imagine that this track can go the distance. Once the baseball stadium is built will this track and spectator areas be good enough? I'm thinking no.

24. Nashville Superspeedway - ho hum ... another one of these. But if the promoter pays .... find a better place like Phoenix.

25. Chicagoland Speedway - A meat grinder in waiting.

26. Michigan - Didn't International Speedway Corp sabotaged this race in an ongoing effort to kill AOWR. I'd be surprised if IndyCar ever raced at this track again.

BobGarage

17th March 2008, 15:57

Tracks I would pick up:-

- Road America
- Cleveland
- Nazareth (if it hasn't been ploughed under yet - they could try to buy it off ics and re-establish it)
- Phoenix International
- New Hampshire
- Fontana (but only as a season finale 500 mile race)
- Mont Tremblant (yes it is out of the way and crowd capacity isn't massive but Champ Car showed how good the racing can be there.)
- Portland
- Edmonton
- Long Beach
- Laguna seca

Tracks that I would dump:-

- Homestead (original layout wqas great, the reconfiguration for NASCAR makes it worthless for us now).
- Kansas
- Nashville
- Kentucky
- Texas

My opinions on europ Expansion......
They should go there, but do the ovals. Lauzits and Rockingham on a euro swing in August/Septemeber time would be great.
However, I wouldn;t introduce a euro swing onto the schedule until about 2010.

grungex

17th March 2008, 22:06

4. Road America - Worst paddock in racing. If there's a little rain it's a mud hole other wise it's dusty.

I'm curious -- when did you last visit RA?

CCWS77

18th March 2008, 00:18

3. Laguna Seca Road Course - This track has 4 daunting corners and is a real drivers track. From the skill point of view it should be on the championship. It is also located in one of the coolest location in the countries coolest state. If you can't find a great restaurant around here , you might be a redneck. Bring this back.

4. Road America - Worst paddock in racing. If there's a little rain it's a mud hole other wise it's dusty. Hotels are a very very long way away. Long straights where the driver has allot of time to think about what he's going to do at the next corner. Only one daunting corner. It's a pure power track. Cars get spread out and end up only racing the track. I could never figure out what was so great about this place. Even with this said it's a popular track and if the promoter could figure out how to pay for it, IndyCar should go. It's a very safe place to race now. It's a keeper if RA can afford it.

I think these are in some ways opposite ends of the spectrum and thus the two best road courses. At LS passing might not be easy but you are constantly battling the track. Wait for someone to be beaten by the corkskrew and just take thier position. RA just the opposite, the course gives maybe more room for error and with the long straights there is more room for racing between drivers as opposed to always fighting the course.

millencolin

18th March 2008, 01:36

What about Toronto? An event with a large amount of history and a (usually) storng fanbase shouldnt be let off the schedule (except in 2008, unfortuately)

nanders

18th March 2008, 03:15

I'm curious -- when did you last visit RA?

Now that you made me think about it, it has been awhile and if I remember right they did do some improvements last year so maybe I'm dissing a paddock that's been improved. Tell me what you know.

nanders

18th March 2008, 03:21

What about Toronto? An event with a large amount of history and a (usually) storng fanbase shouldnt be let off the schedule (except in 2008, unfortuately)

It is hard to leave Toronto off the list and maybe I should get it on there. When George and Kalkhoven were at the announcement and they were ask about it, they just looked at each other blankly. Has it been making money? I get the feeling the promoter was in trouble there ... which was Forsythe and Kalkhoven, right?

jimispeed

18th March 2008, 05:35

Well,

I guess since Indycar doesn't want to go to Europe, (although they should) I guess I'll have to stick to North America. By the way, Canada is a HUGE market for open wheel....

I love Michigan and Indy for ovals! I would prefer only four ovals at the most, but that obviously won't happen.

These are Champcar venues that I thought were worthy....

Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach

Grand Prix of Houston at JAGFlo Speedway

http://champcarworldseries.com/images/events/T_LagunaSeca_100.gifGrand Prix at Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca

Grand Prix of Cleveland

http://champcarworldseries.com/images/events/T_Monttremblant_100.gifMont-Tremblant

Grand Prix of Toronto

http://champcarworldseries.com/images/events/T_Edmonton_100.gifRexall Grand Prix of Edmonton

Grand Prix of Portland

http://champcarworldseries.com/images/events/T_ElkhartLake_100.gifRoad America Grand Prix

http://champcarworldseries.com/images/events/T_Australia_100.gifIndy 300

Gran Premio Tecate Presentado por Banamex

Dave Brock

18th March 2008, 05:45

They can race in a barrel for all I care.
Every track in any configuration gets my attention and where I want them to race will never have ANY bearing on where they DO RACE, so I don't waste time wishing for things that have no chance of coming to fruition.
Why set yourself up for disappointment thru baseless expectations of performance?

BenRoethig

18th March 2008, 07:19

BenRoethig

18th March 2008, 07:34

My opinions on europ Expansion......
They should go there, but do the ovals. Lauzits and Rockingham on a euro swing in August/Septemeber time would be great.
However, I wouldn;t introduce a euro swing onto the schedule until about 2010.

Look, going overseas is very expensive and in the case of CART having several races in nations they don't sell products caused some major sponsos to rethink where they wanted to be. It also requires a four week block with off weeks before and after.

BobGarage

18th March 2008, 07:41

Look, going overseas is very expensive and in the case of CART having several races in nations they don't sell products caused some major sponsos to rethink where they wanted to be. It also requires a four week block with off weeks before and after.

Wheres the four week block for motegi then??? oh wait, there isn't one... they happily race at Kansas a week later without a problem.

If this series is to grow it needs to come to Europe. Not right now, but by 2010 I would like to see it happen.

Chris R

18th March 2008, 12:19

I think one race in Europe at alternating venues is a good idea - it provides a taste of Indycar for Europe without getting too far away from the core market of North America.

Dr. Krogshöj

18th March 2008, 12:26

Look, going overseas is very expensive and in the case of CART having several races in nations they don't sell products caused some major sponsos to rethink where they wanted to be. It also requires a four week block with off weeks before and after.

A Pacific trip makes sense however. I think Motegi and Surfers Paradise on consecutive weekends could work, especially if Honda steps up to support it.

Chris R

18th March 2008, 13:23

Trackwise, Nanders makes some very good points - hard to disagree....

I am wondering if TG would be well served by making an offer on Pocono - or offering to cost share re-vamping the track to suit modern Indycars (to the best of my knowledge it would need serious re-paving and perhaps new retaining walls.

With Pocono and Indy you have 2 legs of a triple crown - I guess the third could be Fontana until/unless something better comes up.

Overall, I think the first priority is for Indycar to get away from the cookie cutter meat grinder ovals. Second they need to go for financially sound venues and third they need to go for historical significance, and fourth they need to go for tracks that provide good racing in a good market - keep in mind that may mean changing the cars to suit available venues....

indycool

18th March 2008, 13:40

I doubt very much that there will be a mad scramble for venues for 2009 and I doubt ICS changes a LOT of what it has right now. There might be a couple dropoffs and a couple additions, but there'll be no jetting around the world to the Ansans and Zhuhais and Jerezes and Assens willy-nilly on an instant basis.

The consideration for dates will NOT be what any of us individually prefer. It'll be decided on, not necessarily in this order:

--Dates available with the TV package.
--Dates available at the tracks.
--Dates available within the series framework.
--Financially-sound and appropriate sanction fee to be paid.
--Markets and attendance projections.

It will probably NOT be road or street course heavy, to the chagrin of some who prefer it. The ICS has built a fan base at most of its current ovals and I have a feeling that the three street courses they have is probably good enough to suit them.

nanders

18th March 2008, 15:46

I am wondering if TG would be well served by making an offer on Pocono - or offering to cost share re-vamping the track to suit modern Indycars (to the best of my knowledge it would need serious re-paving and perhaps new retaining walls.

Now that you bring it up, there would have to be allot of asphalt work done.

There would need to be a new design for pit in that would start before turn 3. In recent SIM testing we have done lately at Pocono you start to slow down in the middle of turn 3. If it's a green flag stop that's right on line to where traffic that's not stopping is running through. Although that corner is wide enough for through traffic to drive around.

Off turn one, you'd have to lay asphalt to the inside about half way down the Long Pond straight. The Armco would need to be replaced with SAFER barrier.

Turn 2 would have to be smoothed out and the curbs would probably have to be eliminated.

I really don't know what condition the real surface is in so that would be many millions in repaving .......

champcarray

18th March 2008, 17:50

Just a couple of comments:

Nazareth was always a joy to watch when they used the high downforce package -- it really separated the masters from the also-rans. But it was dangerous, too. The transition from Turn 1/2 to the back straight was tough and anyone who missed it left quite a debris field.

Would love to see New Hampshire return. That's a great little oval.

Please not Pocono. They put the stands and pit lane on the wrong side of the track -- the long end. If you haven't been there, the site lines are almost as bad as the racing surface.

nigelred5

18th March 2008, 18:02

Now that you bring it up, there would have to be allot of asphalt work done.

There would need to be a new design for pit in that would start before turn 3. In recent SIM testing we have done lately at Pocono you start to slow down in the middle of turn 3. If it's a green flag stop that's right on line to where traffic that's not stopping is running through. Although that corner is wide enough for through traffic to drive around.

Off turn one, you'd have to lay asphalt to the inside about half way down the Long Pond straight. The Armco would need to be replaced with SAFER barrier.

Turn 2 would have to be smoothed out and the curbs would probably have to be eliminated.

I really don't know what condition the real surface is in so that would be many millions in repaving .......

How hard are you braking into turn 1 on the sims?

It would likely need more than just paving, more like re-grading. Pocono would need a ton of work on the track surface for Indycars. They could just as easily run short on the front strait and create a new open turn 1 before joining the second turn. The front stretch is so wavy-gravy indycars would risk taking flight hopping over the bumps. There is also no catch fencing around much of the track, and I have heard it straight from Joe Mattioli's mouth in a press conference when asked in the past, there will never be another Indycar race at Pocono as long as he owns the track.

nanders

18th March 2008, 18:53

How hard are you braking into turn 1 on the sims? none

It would likely need more than just paving, more like re-grading. Pocono would need a ton of work on the track surface for Indycars. They could just as easily run short on the front strait and create a new open turn 1 before joining the second turn. The front stretch is so wavy-gravy indycars would risk taking flight hopping over the bumps. There is also no catch fencing around much of the track, and I have heard it straight from Joe Mattioli's mouth in a press conference when asked in the past, there will never be another Indycar race at Pocono as long as he owns the track.

Well this sounds less likely every moment.

Wiki reports that the Lap Record is 0:42.51 (Emerson Fittipaldi, Patrick Racing, 1989, CART IndyCar World Series). And we're running 38.5's with a higher horse power car with smaller under wing and less down force ... but this track is flat for us unless we are running across the wake of a proceeding car as we're turning in. I which case a lift is required.

We do have a couple more physics packages coming which we hope get's closer to 1998 physics. There is also 1995 physics in the pipeline. 1998 has 4 different aero packages Superspeedway, short oval, hansfords device and road course.

nanders

18th March 2008, 18:56

17. Lauzitring - IndyCar should go here. Remember that 2002 CART race during SeaBass' first season where he raced Mario Dominguez? That was one of the best oval races of all times.

CORRECTION - 2003

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_CART_World_Series_season

Chris R

18th March 2008, 19:19

That doesn't hurt my feelings. Pocono can stay a NASCAR track. I'm just hoping that the new New Jersey track will live up to expectations. The full configuration, when complete, should be around 4 miles. It's about 45 minutes from Philadelphia; 1 1/2 hours or so from New York and 2 hours or so from Baltimore & Washington DC. The first race there will be a SCCA Regional on the 2 mile course in July with a GrandAm scheduled for later in the year, Sept. I think. It has great possibilities. Think 2009.

Thunderbolt Raceway (named for the adjacent airport that was home to the Thunderbolt squadron in WW2) is about 7 minutes from my house - I have been driving over every month or so the check on progress- it is very cool to see them carve this place out....

I am not sure the area could handle a really big event - nobody really shows up for Grand Am weekends - so that is a safe bet - but as it sits - traffic for a 50,000+ crowd might be a little hard to deal with....

Anyway, I have been softening up my wife to let me buy a shifter kart to go play on weekends since it is so close - any suggestions anyone???

oh, and given my proximity to the track I am all for an Indycar event - it is closer to a ton of people than most tracks in the entire country....

Alexamateo

18th March 2008, 20:12

Alexamateo

18th March 2008, 20:21

I am not sure the area could handle a really big event - nobody really shows up for Grand Am weekends - so that is a safe bet - but as it sits - traffic for a 50,000+ crowd might be a little hard to deal with....

..

I heard they already have that planned out. There's this nearby place called Cumberland Nursery, and they're going to park cars there and shuttle people to the track. Lord knows they can make more money parking cars in one weekend than they can selling plants! ;) :D

!!WALDO!!

18th March 2008, 20:26

grungex

19th March 2008, 01:30

Now that you made me think about it, it has been awhile and if I remember right they did do some improvements last year so maybe I'm dissing a paddock that's been improved. Tell me what you know.

They made a huge addition to the paved paddock, enough so that the ALMS and Champ Cars and Atlantics all had plenty of room. Since I was there last year they have made further improvements, including a tunnel into the paddock from the main gate.

Even the year of the ill-fated, almost rained out Mario Andretti CC race I don't recall mud being much of a problem, at least in the paddock areas.

nigelred5

19th March 2008, 01:43

Thunderbolt Raceway (named for the adjacent airport that was home to the Thunderbolt squadron in WW2) is about 7 minutes from my house - I have been driving over every month or so the check on progress- it is very cool to see them carve this place out....

I am not sure the area could handle a really big event - nobody really shows up for Grand Am weekends - so that is a safe bet - but as it sits - traffic for a 50,000+ crowd might be a little hard to deal with....

Anyway, I have been softening up my wife to let me buy a shifter kart to go play on weekends since it is so close - any suggestions anyone???

oh, and given my proximity to the track I am all for an Indycar event - it is closer to a ton of people than most tracks in the entire country....
Couldn't be much worse than Nazareth was in the days of big crowds. Rt 22 used to back up all the way to Allentown
I've been following the track development fairly closely. It's about 1 1/2 hours from me. I was a little disheartened when I saw how they had to modify and downgrade the original multi-configuration plan into two separate courses. I'm sure they could still link the two as originally planned. My understanding is the change was required to eliminate the portions of the track directly under the flight path, but then they plunked the clubhouse smack in the same spot.
It looks like all of the work is being done on the Lightning course. Have they made much progress on the Thunderbolt course? Can you get into the sight at all? My old man and I were thinking about taking a drive in the 911 to check it out if we get a nice warm day in the next few weeks.

BobGarage

19th March 2008, 07:20

Why dump tracks that actually make money in favor of places that don't? The IRL said that LB, Edmonton and Surfer;s are the only shows that have an expectation to make money.

So you would like the ICS to become the CCWS in all respects.

no i would just like to eliminate the cookie cutter ovals that bore the hell out of me and are more likely to produce dead drivers than great races.... and I forgot chicagoland off my original "dump" list too.

The original question is a hyperthetical one on a forum. Its not real life. In my world those are the tracks I would dump and those are the tracks I would take on. As races there entertain me a hell of a lot more than the ones on my list that i'd like to dump.

my wish list is never going to happen so don't get your knickers in a twist old man ;)

Chris R

19th March 2008, 10:47

I heard they already have that planned out. There's this nearby place called Cumberland Nursery, and they're going to park cars there and shuttle people to the track. Lord knows they can make more money parking cars in one weekend than they can selling plants! ;) :D

oh yeah, I forgot!! :D I was planning on offering hayrides to the track :p

Seriously, you are actually not far from the plan - our neighboring nursery is going to have a road paved through it along with other development - but that'll be 5-10 years before it happens..... once that road is completed the traffic issue will be largely resolved.....

Chris R

19th March 2008, 10:52

Couldn't be much worse than Nazareth was in the days of big crowds. Rt 22 used to back up all the way to Allentown
I've been following the track development fairly closely. It's about 1 1/2 hours from me. I was a little disheartened when I saw how they had to modify and downgrade the original multi-configuration plan into two separate courses. I'm sure they could still link the two as originally planned. My understanding is the change was required to eliminate the portions of the track directly under the flight path, but then they plunked the clubhouse smack in the same spot.
It looks like all of the work is being done on the Lightning course. Have they made much progress on the Thunderbolt course? Can you get into the sight at all? My old man and I were thinking about taking a drive in the 911 to check it out if we get a nice warm day in the next few weeks.

You might be able to get on the sight with a truck - but I wouldn't figure on the 911. also looks like it is pretty secure if you were thinking of getting on the racing surface... I'll try to shoot some pictures in the next week or so and post them somewhere appropriate.... overall, I ma not sure it is worth the ride quite yet (at least based on my last drive-by two weeks ago)

nanders

19th March 2008, 13:52

OK I have updated my list. Do to information presented here Pocono is out, replaced by the Toronto Andretti Whines 200. Also noted is Road America's paddock is no longer a mud hole and it has been greatly expanded. Also, with my withdrawal of Pocono that means there are only 2 big ovals on this schedule .... because I can't believe they would really put Lauzitring on the schedule anytime soon. If they really want 3 big ovals and I contend they will not return to Michigan, where is this 3rd big oval gonna come from? They have already said they won't run Daytona, and it is way too bumpy. Texas World? No! Where?

Also noted is that Lauzitring race was in 2003 not 2002.

1. Long Beach, Calif - Great race and a great place to go to. This place should never fall off the schedule.

2. Fontana - Too far out for Southern Californians to want to go to. Nice race course, bad location. There is nothing "cool" around Fontana. This is where the California version of hillbilly's live. That's really not true because the hillbilly's live in Reading. But you get where I'm going with this, right? Still the ICS has telegraphed they want 3 big ovals so okay here's one. But I think they should dump it.

3. Laguna Seca Road Course - This track has 4 daunting corners and is a real drivers track. From the skill point of view it should be on the championship. It is also located in one of the coolest location in the countries coolest state. If you can't find a great restaurant around here , you might be a redneck. Bring this back.

4. Road America - Paddock asphalt has been expanded. Hotels are a very very long way away. Long straights where the driver has allot of time to think about what he's going to do at the next corner. Only one daunting corner. It's a pure power track. Cars get spread out and end up only racing the track. I could never figure out what was so great about this place. Even with this said it's a popular track and if the promoter could figure out how to pay for it, IndyCar should go. It's a very safe place to race now. It's a keeper if RA can afford it.

5. Surfers Paradise, Australia - Most difficult street course. The speed you must carry through the single lane chicanes is scary. If one car get's it wrong in a chicane he can easily collect many cars following. Another real drivers track. Worlds best location for a race. "Nopi Chicks" are not needed at this race. Will never be removed by the ICS. However ICS must produce.

6. Homestead-Miami Speedway - It's wide and it appears to be safer then the average 1.5 tri-oval. The fast line is not always the low line because you can pinch it down a scrub momentum exiting the turns. My favorite of the 1.5 ovals.

7. Twin Ring Motegi - If AOWR goes out side of North America to race it should be on an oval, if it's available. As long as the promoter pays up, this should stay on the schedule. But, will it stay on the schedule? If Honda leaves, will this track stay on the schedule. I'm calling this marginal for the long term. We should know where Honda is at after the Indy 500.

8. Indianapolis 500 - 1 of 3 Big ovals .... you know it's Indy.

9. The Milwaukee Mile - The prototype 1 mile oval. A better pit lane would be cool. Can the series put butts in the seats enough for this to go the distance. Will "blendification" bring them back. It may be over for IndyCar here. Will they hang in here to rebuild this event? I'm rating this as marginal. I would not be surprised to read that the ICS would dump this track.

10. Texas Motor Speedway - How could this not make the schedule? However, I think they should dump this "meat grinder." I have a real tough time watching the stars of the series careers come to an end as they grind body parts down against the fence. I really dislike this place and have a very hard time watching a race here.

11. Richmond International Raceway - I dig the short ovals. This is a keeper ... if Richmond keeps on buying it.

12. Watkins Glen International - At least one more year, but they should dump this place. This is still the most dangerous road course in North America. Turn one, the "outer loop" and the heal of the "boot" are banked way too much for these kind of cars. When they exit these corners and are trying to get on the throttle they risk a spin as the car un-weights. The worst thing about this place is how close the Armco is to the track and the lack of barriers that are appropriate for IndyCars. Remember when Paul Tracy nosed through the Armco at Road America? Watkins Glen is just waiting for a serious injury do to an IndyCar knifing through the Armco. When it happens, it will be nasty.

13. Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course - A classic IndyCar road course. With Rahal in the series now and "blendification" underway, along with the best road course fan facilities in America, this place is a keeper. I firmly believe this is a place where IndyCar should commit for the long term. Even if it means a few lean years. But I bet this place makes a comeback.

14. The Raceway at Belle Isle Park - Last year went along way in showing that this track needs to be on the schedule. It's a great street course now. Look for it to stay on the IndyCar schedule for a long time. I do hear from some people that the sight-lines are bad and all you see if a car zoom by in front of you.

15. Infineon Raceway - I have a hard time with this place because I don't see it as a traditional IndyCar track. If Laguna came back on the schedule could this place still be on the schedule? Are Laguna and Infineon too close together. With the population of California probably not. If the promoter keeps paying I'd say it's a keeper.

16. Kansas - Another "meat grinder." But there are allot of people showing up for this race even though the race is marginal to boring. Last year once the leaders started lapping the field it made it very difficult for the fans to follow what was going on. I was also amazed at how many really old guys that were at this race. If the promoter keeps paying they will probably continue to stick with this track. Ask Ryan Briscoe if he wants to race there? It was scary watching everyone having to dodge Milka.

17. Lauzitring - IndyCar should go here. Remember that 2003 CART race during SeaBass' first season where he raced Mario Dominguez? That was one of the best oval races of all times.

18. Phoenix - classic IndyCar track. Figure out a way to get this back on the schedule.

19. Toronto - Andretti Whines 200.

20. Cleveland - How could you let this fall off the schedule?

The ones I don't think should make it.

21. Edmonton Street Course - Promoter has yet to make money. How can you possibly lose money and stay on the schedule? This one will be a "goner" as soon as the contract is up.

22. Portland Road Course - As witnessed at the Champcar races, Portland no longer cares about AOWR. Who knows who's fault it was, but unfortunately this track does not have enough mometum to stay on the schedule. The Promoter would have to pay up for multiple years before you could make a hole in the schedule for this one. Goners.

23. Streets of St. Petersburg - It's hard to imagine that this track can go the distance. Once the baseball stadium is built will this track and spectator areas be good enough? I'm thinking no.

24. Nashville Superspeedway - ho hum ... another one of these. But if the promoter pays .... find a better place like Phoenix.

25. Chicagoland Speedway - A meat grinder in waiting.

26. Michigan - Didn't International Speedway Corp sabotaged this race in an ongoing effort to kill AOWR. I'd be surprised if IndyCar ever raced at this track again.

Mark in Oshawa

21st March 2008, 01:53

Interesting.... Keepers for me?

Indy (THE KING...despite TG's best efforts to mess it up)
Long Beach ( a classic)
Surfer's (one hell of a party, with some neat racing tossed in)
Mid Ohio (great venue...maybe too close to Cleveland - both cant survive)
Cleveland ( the one that started the racing at airports in the modern era)
Edmonton (surprise surprise, it is one I didn't think would make the cut)
Mont Tremblant (hasn't a hope in hell but beautful setting)
Richmond (love that short oval stuff)
Milwaukee(classic ...see Richmond)
Road America (classic but not always the best race)
St. Pete's (underated as a road/street course)
Homstead-Miami (best 1.5 mile oval)

Ones that will be kept DESPITE what I think because they make Beaucoup dollars:

Kansas (Draws well...damned if I can figure out why....puts my feet to sleep watching cars run flat out all the way around....)
Chicagoland (Tony makes the NASCAR ticket holders buy the tickets for the ICS does he not? My complaints...see Kansas)
Texas (even an idiot has to admit that 100000 fans is hard to turn down but this type of racing isn't always that interesting to me. As I said before...puts my feet to sleep watching guys never lift)

Races that maybe are not as successful and might go away in time:

Watkins Glen ( love it for NASCAR, not sure it is right for the ICS)
Motegi (boring.....only there because Honda needs it for the home market)
Infineon ( I like the track, but I wonder how well this race does...would Laguna not be better?)
Iowa (needs more stands..and a package that allows better competition. It was a pretty dull affair in its first year...but Iowa wants to make this happen...and good people like that deserve this series maybe more than the fans up the Interstate at Chicagoland)

Tracks not likely to come back

Phoenix
New Hampshire
Michigan
Fontana (NASCAR don't even like it as much they once did....I can see this place being bulldozed in a decade or two)
Tremblant.....It just is too out of the way and too lacking in amentities really to make it as it stands. It got lucky that CCWS was desparate for new ideas and tried it last year.

As for Pocono, that place is so damned bumpy and antiquated for this type of car that they wouldn't come back EVEN if Mattioli wanted them back.

I would have to say there is a definate sway for the Indy cars to stay on more ovals than maybe some of us fans would like, but with Andretti talking of buying up Toronto for 2009, us road/street fans will be happier. A good mix of circuits will work. It did when CART was successful. I love some ovals, mainly the ones that require the drivers to DRIVE the damn cars rather than sit on the chip all the way around hoping they have the right setup and no aero push.

Phoenix would be ideal to go back to on the oval side, but I think that horse left the barn. Not sure what the future holds....and god knows some fans will feel left out, but hey, it isn't a perfect business model but it is better than two small series both starving to death. I will judge this series more harshly 2 or 3 years down the road when the pains of the merger are handled and we will see what the series looks like.

nanders

21st March 2008, 03:15

I love it when Mark stops by and catches up. See you in a month or so :)

BenRoethig

21st March 2008, 04:35

The reason they don't like Fontana is because its basically designed for Open wheel cars. Too flat in the corners. Is probably going to be reconfigured for progressive banking. Then again, its predacessor, 2.5 mile indy close in nearby Ontario only lasted a decade. The only things that seem to stick in L.A. are the Dodgers and the Lakers.

!!WALDO!!

21st March 2008, 23:55

no i would just like to eliminate the cookie cutter ovals that bore the hell out of me and are more likely to produce dead drivers than great races.... and I forgot chicagoland off my original "dump" list too.

It this is a business and race tracks are a business, then where is money going to come from to pay the $2,000,000 to $4,000,000 that the races you want will lose every year? About 9 races $30,000,000 in losses and 1 race that breaks even.

I am interested in how this funded.

indycool

22nd March 2008, 00:13

It's very hard to tell folks this, because Cleveland has such a splendid view of a road course for the fans, but unless a promoter with HUGE sponsorship comes about in some way on a multiyear basis, IMO, it's doubtful this will return to the schedule.

There's talk in Cleveland of developing Burke Lakefront Airport, for one thing.

But the most important thing is that the race loses money. Lots of money. It has had promoters in Newcomb, then Penske, then IMG, which just gave it back to CART because it couldn't make money, which promoted it itself, which turned it over to CC, which promoted it itself, who laid it off to Lanigan.

Financial stability is going to be a key part of ANY upcoming schedule. And a great deal must change in Cleveland for this race to come back. Just IMO, but I've said why.

nanders

22nd March 2008, 02:20

But the most important thing is that the race loses money. Lots of money. It has had promoters in Newcomb, then Penske, then IMG, which just gave it back to CART because it couldn't make money, which promoted it itself, which turned it over to CC, which promoted it itself, who laid it off to Lanigan..

And we haven't heard Lanigan whine about it so it must be a loser.

BrentJackson

22nd March 2008, 04:53

Waldo, a big issue with profitability is the sanction fee paid to the series. CART charged $2.5 or $3M. Cut that in half (as the IRL probably has) and you solve much of the money problems for many places right there.

Financial stability in racing is an oxymoron to begin with, and I doubt the IRL has turned a cent of profit yet. The key aspect that needs to be found is the product that OW puts on the track. Period. If that costs money early but makes it later, I don't think the IRL will care all that much.

!!WALDO!!

22nd March 2008, 19:14

Waldo, a big issue with profitability is the sanction fee paid to the series. CART charged $2.5 or $3M. Cut that in half (as the IRL probably has) and you solve much of the money problems for many places right there.

CART/CCWS was charging $3,600,000. The IRL is not that far behind but has revenue that brings the show to a $500,000 final amount.

Problem isn't sanction fees it is BUILDING A TRACK. Your Edmonton guy is claming the first show cost $15,000,000 and according to what I read, Toronto is even more expensive. So you lower the cost to $12,000,000. With FREE FRIDAYS, $30.00 Saturdays and $90.00 Sundays how many people are required to break even.

Financial stability in racing is an oxymoron to begin with, and I doubt the IRL has turned a cent of profit yet. The key aspect that needs to be found is the product that OW puts on the track. Period. If that costs money early but makes it later, I don't think the IRL will care all that much.

Corporate laws require a profit in three years. 1996, 1997, 1998. That is the illusion of the CART world. "We are losing money so they must be also."
It isn't so much the IRL as it is the Tracks. I am writing about 1968 and based on the profitablity of some shows, 4 Canadian ones, they would return to Mosport in 1977 and 1978 and St Jovite in 2007. Those day you paid $18,350 plus $2.00 per person after the $18,350 was met. If below 9,175 then USAC could pay the appearence money. This way the promoter was going to cover his bills. Yet, the profitablity of shows when out the window and today, every IRL makes money. Every one! If they do then the IRL does also. Not alot, I wrote 7 years ago it is around $100,000 per year but by now has money to cover these extra races, thown into their laps, by the failure of THE WORLDS GREATEST SERIES!!.

Please, the IRL is not going to buy into money losing ventures. I hope Andretti sees the reality of Toronto and takes the Honda money to Mosport.
Right off the bat, you save at least $13,000,000.

ShiftingGears

24th March 2008, 10:40

If profitability weren't an issue... I'd have Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, Mont Tremblant, Road America and Mosport Park. Not a huge fan of Laguna Seca. Or 1.5 mile ovals.

!!WALDO!!

24th March 2008, 17:46

If profitability weren't an issue... I'd have Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, Mont Tremblant, Road America and Mosport Park. Not a huge fan of Laguna Seca. Or 1.5 mile ovals.

Those shows can make money today wereas the temp courses are money losers. The 1.5 Mile ovals are here to stay as they make money.

Pat Wiatrowski

24th March 2008, 18:25

Those shows can make money today wereas the temp courses are money losers. The 1.5 Mile ovals are here to stay as they make money.

Road America made money?

indycool

24th March 2008, 18:28

It did as a CC track rental, but getting it to take the risk right now, IMO, after all the ups and downs on dates and deals that CART and CC bestowed on them, would be difficult. Wait a couple years till the bad blood calms down and the series solidifies.

!!WALDO!!

24th March 2008, 18:37

Road America made money?

They made money but the CCWS lost $2,500,000 in sanction fees. The money many was enough to fill some gas tanks and buy several cartons of Salems.

It was the CCWS that lowered its sanction to the Pook "Portland Deal". Otherwise, RA, Portland, Cleveland would be gone. That is why Montreal was gone, the promoter wanted the "Portland Deal."

BobbyC

26th March 2008, 20:52

Nashville is an important race for Bridgestone, as it is their "home" race as US offices are nearby. It's also a unique track because of its concrete surface (which is a good thing for tire research).

I do think Phoenix needs another look, and the Big Three superspeedways should be Indianapolis, Pocono, and maybe a look at Darlington -- it is the "coastal" market served because it is in the Florence/Myrtle Beach market. A race on Saturday and a nice day on the beach Sunday would make for happy drivers. Plus the new Hard Rock Park would make for a great place for drivers to meet fans.

The intermediate 1.5 mile ovals do make profits because of the way their race meets are configured. Homestead is a Grand-Am afternoon, IRL night meet on two tracks. Kansas is a three races in three days configureation. Plus they are permanent tracks and unlike street courses, they have regular events each day to help.

nanders

28th March 2008, 04:17

Tony George said on "Cavin and Kevin" Thursday evening, when ask about the possibility of returning to Phoenix that "everyone wants go back to Phoenix, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen."

I'm removing Phoenix from my list.

When answering a question about turbo in the future, TG said that it's a consideration.

1. Long Beach, Calif - Great race and a great place to go to. This place should never fall off the schedule.

2. Fontana - Too far out for Southern Californians to want to go to. Nice race course, bad location. There is nothing "cool" around Fontana. This is where the California version of hillbilly's live. That's really not true because the hillbilly's live in Reading. But you get where I'm going with this, right? Still the ICS has telegraphed they want 3 big ovals so okay here's one. But I think they should dump it.

3. Laguna Seca Road Course - This track has 4 daunting corners and is a real drivers track. From the skill point of view it should be on the championship. It is also located in one of the coolest location in the countries coolest state. If you can't find a great restaurant around here , you might be a redneck. Bring this back.

4. Road America - Paddock asphalt has been expanded. Hotels are a very very long way away. Long straights where the driver has allot of time to think about what he's going to do at the next corner. Only one daunting corner. It's a pure power track. Cars get spread out and end up only racing the track. I could never figure out what was so great about this place. Even with this said it's a popular track and if the promoter could figure out how to pay for it, IndyCar should go. It's a very safe place to race now. It's a keeper if RA can afford it.

5. Surfers Paradise, Australia - Most difficult street course. The speed you must carry through the single lane chicanes is scary. If one car get's it wrong in a chicane he can easily collect many cars following. Another real drivers track. Worlds best location for a race. "Nopi Chicks" are not needed at this race. Will never be removed by the ICS. However ICS must produce.

6. Homestead-Miami Speedway - It's wide and it appears to be safer then the average 1.5 tri-oval. The fast line is not always the low line because you can pinch it down a scrub momentum exiting the turns. My favorite of the 1.5 ovals.

7. Twin Ring Motegi - If AOWR goes out side of North America to race it should be on an oval, if it's available. As long as the promoter pays up, this should stay on the schedule. But, will it stay on the schedule? If Honda leaves, will this track stay on the schedule. I'm calling this marginal for the long term. We should know where Honda is at after the Indy 500.

8. Indianapolis 500 - 1 of 3 Big ovals .... you know it's Indy.

9. The Milwaukee Mile - The prototype 1 mile oval. A better pit lane would be cool. Can the series put butts in the seats enough for this to go the distance. Will "blendification" bring them back. It may be over for IndyCar here. Will they hang in here to rebuild this event? I'm rating this as marginal. I would not be surprised to read that the ICS would dump this track.

10. Texas Motor Speedway - How could this not make the schedule? However, I think they should dump this "meat grinder." I have a real tough time watching the stars of the series careers come to an end as they grind body parts down against the fence. I really dislike this place and have a very hard time watching a race here.

11. Richmond International Raceway - I dig the short ovals. This is a keeper ... if Richmond keeps on buying it.

12. Watkins Glen International - At least one more year, but they should dump this place. This is still the most dangerous road course in North America. Turn one, the "outer loop" and the heal of the "boot" are banked way too much for these kind of cars. When they exit these corners and are trying to get on the throttle they risk a spin as the car un-weights. The worst thing about this place is how close the Armco is to the track and the lack of barriers that are appropriate for IndyCars. Remember when Paul Tracy nosed through the Armco at Road America? Watkins Glen is just waiting for a serious injury do to an IndyCar knifing through the Armco. When it happens, it will be nasty.

13. Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course - A classic IndyCar road course. With Rahal in the series now and "blendification" underway, along with the best road course fan facilities in America, this place is a keeper. I firmly believe this is a place where IndyCar should commit for the long term. Even if it means a few lean years. But I bet this place makes a comeback.

14. The Raceway at Belle Isle Park - Last year went along way in showing that this track needs to be on the schedule. It's a great street course now. Look for it to stay on the IndyCar schedule for a long time. I do hear from some people that the sight-lines are bad and all you see if a car zoom by in front of you.

15. Infineon Raceway - I have a hard time with this place because I don't see it as a traditional IndyCar track. If Laguna came back on the schedule could this place still be on the schedule? Are Laguna and Infineon too close together. With the population of California probably not. If the promoter keeps paying I'd say it's a keeper.

16. Kansas - Another "meat grinder." But there are allot of people showing up for this race even though the race is marginal to boring. Last year once the leaders started lapping the field it made it very difficult for the fans to follow what was going on. I was also amazed at how many really old guys that were at this race. If the promoter keeps paying they will probably continue to stick with this track. Ask Ryan Briscoe if he wants to race there? It was scary watching everyone having to dodge Milka.

17. Lauzitring - IndyCar should go here. Remember that 2003 CART race during SeaBass' first season where he raced Mario Dominguez? That was one of the best oval races of all times.

18. Nashville Superspeedway - this pick replaces Phoenix. Cavin says, Nashville is not going anywhere as it is Firestone's home track.

19. Toronto - Andretti Whines 200.

20. Cleveland - How could you let this fall off the schedule?

The ones I don't think should make it.

21. Edmonton Street Course - Promoter has yet to make money. How can you possibly lose money and stay on the schedule? This one will be a "goner" as soon as the contract is up.

22. Portland Road Course - As witnessed at the Champcar races, Portland no longer cares about AOWR. Who knows who's fault it was, but unfortunately this track does not have enough mometum to stay on the schedule. The Promoter would have to pay up for multiple years before you could make a hole in the schedule for this one. Goners.

23. Streets of St. Petersburg - It's hard to imagine that this track can go the distance. Once the baseball stadium is built will this track and spectator areas be good enough? I'm thinking no.

24.

25. Chicagoland Speedway - A meat grinder in waiting.

26. Michigan - Didn't International Speedway Corp sabotaged this race in an ongoing effort to kill AOWR. I'd be surprised if IndyCar ever raced at this track again.

usgrandprix

28th March 2008, 14:25

Richmond MUST stay. Best oval driver's track they go to now. Frenetic racing. Always traffic and just staying on the lead lap is a chore. Superspeedways and road/street courses deserve the love, but after losing Phoenix, Pike's Peak, Gateway, and Nazareth, losing this one would be a crime.

Homestead version 3 must go. It's just an emasculated NASCAR track now and pit in is a disaster waiting to happen. Pity because version 2 of Homestead was a good driver's oval.

Get rid of one more high-bank 1.5 mile cookie cutter.

Add Elkart Lake.

Add Phoenix.

In a perfect world, resurrect Nazareth. That was the ultimate loss in all of this to me. The in-car shots of that dog leg were heaven.

nanders

28th March 2008, 14:58

Tony George said on "Cavin and Kevin" Thursday evening, when ask about the possibility of returning to Phoenix that "everyone wants go back to Phoenix, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen."

I'm removing Phoenix from my list.

Richmond MUST stay. Best oval driver's track they go to now. Frenetic racing. Always traffic and just staying on the lead lap is a chore. Superspeedways and road/street courses deserve the love, but after losing Phoenix, Pike's Peak, Gateway, and Nazareth, losing this one would be a crime.

Homestead version 3 must go. It's just an emasculated NASCAR track now and pit in is a disaster waiting to happen. Pity because version 2 of Homestead was a good driver's oval.

Get rid of one more high-bank 1.5 mile cookie cutter.

Add Elkart Lake.

Add Phoenix.

In a perfect world, resurrect Nazareth. That was the ultimate loss in all of this to me. The in-car shots of that dog leg were heaven.

Nazarath is rumored to be a commercial center of some type now ... I have a SIM Racing version that will be on our next seasons schedule :) it rocks.

You missed the post right before yours, where from last nights radio show Tony George said "everyone wants go back to Phoenix, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen."

Also, Cavin says, Nashville is not going anywhere as it is Firestone's home track. So I've added it to my list.

nanders

28th March 2008, 15:17

After listening to all of you and the media pundits i have also removed Cleveland and replaced it with Chicago. Even though I wanted it to happen the other way, I doubt very much now that Cleveland will ever be a race again. A CCWS fan from Cleveland has told me the city and real estate developer are "licking their chops" at doing a high end residential development on that land. I'm affraid we have seen out last Cleveland race.

I'm hearing it's has a possibility of making the MIRL Sim Racing schedule next season though.

1. Long Beach, Calif - Great race and a great place to go to. This place should never fall off the schedule.

2. Fontana - Too far out for Southern Californians to want to go to. Nice race course, bad location. There is nothing "cool" around Fontana. This is where the California version of hillbilly's live. That's really not true because the hillbilly's live in Reading. But you get where I'm going with this, right? Still the ICS has telegraphed they want 3 big ovals so okay here's one. But I think they should dump it.

3. Laguna Seca Road Course - This track has 4 daunting corners and is a real drivers track. From the skill point of view it should be on the championship. It is also located in one of the coolest location in the countries coolest state. If you can't find a great restaurant around here , you might be a redneck. Bring this back.

4. Road America - Paddock asphalt has been expanded. Hotels are a very very long way away. Long straights where the driver has allot of time to think about what he's going to do at the next corner. Only one daunting corner. It's a pure power track. Cars get spread out and end up only racing the track. I could never figure out what was so great about this place. Even with this said it's a popular track and if the promoter could figure out how to pay for it, IndyCar should go. It's a very safe place to race now. It's a keeper if RA can afford it.

5. Surfers Paradise, Australia - Most difficult street course. The speed you must carry through the single lane chicanes is scary. If one car get's it wrong in a chicane he can easily collect many cars following. Another real drivers track. Worlds best location for a race. "Nopi Chicks" are not needed at this race. Will never be removed by the ICS. However ICS must produce.

6. Homestead-Miami Speedway - It's wide and it appears to be safer then the average 1.5 tri-oval. The fast line is not always the low line because you can pinch it down a scrub momentum exiting the turns. My favorite of the 1.5 ovals.

7. Twin Ring Motegi - If AOWR goes out side of North America to race it should be on an oval, if it's available. As long as the promoter pays up, this should stay on the schedule. But, will it stay on the schedule? If Honda leaves, will this track stay on the schedule. I'm calling this marginal for the long term. We should know where Honda is at after the Indy 500.

8. Indianapolis 500 - 1 of 3 Big ovals .... you know it's Indy.

9. The Milwaukee Mile - The prototype 1 mile oval. A better pit lane would be cool. Can the series put butts in the seats enough for this to go the distance. Will "blendification" bring them back. It may be over for IndyCar here. Will they hang in here to rebuild this event? I'm rating this as marginal. I would not be surprised to read that the ICS would dump this track.

10. Texas Motor Speedway - How could this not make the schedule? However, I think they should dump this "meat grinder." I have a real tough time watching the stars of the series careers come to an end as they grind body parts down against the fence. I really dislike this place and have a very hard time watching a race here.

11. Richmond International Raceway - I dig the short ovals. This is a keeper ... if Richmond keeps on buying it.

12. Watkins Glen International - At least one more year, but they should dump this place. This is still the most dangerous road course in North America. Turn one, the "outer loop" and the heal of the "boot" are banked way too much for these kind of cars. When they exit these corners and are trying to get on the throttle they risk a spin as the car un-weights. The worst thing about this place is how close the Armco is to the track and the lack of barriers that are appropriate for IndyCars. Remember when Paul Tracy nosed through the Armco at Road America? Watkins Glen is just waiting for a serious injury do to an IndyCar knifing through the Armco. When it happens, it will be nasty.

13. Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course - A classic IndyCar road course. With Rahal in the series now and "blendification" underway, along with the best road course fan facilities in America, this place is a keeper. I firmly believe this is a place where IndyCar should commit for the long term. Even if it means a few lean years. But I bet this place makes a comeback.

14. The Raceway at Belle Isle Park - Last year went along way in showing that this track needs to be on the schedule. It's a great street course now. Look for it to stay on the IndyCar schedule for a long time. I do hear from some people that the sight-lines are bad and all you see if a car zoom by in front of you.

15. Infineon Raceway - I have a hard time with this place because I don't see it as a traditional IndyCar track. If Laguna came back on the schedule could this place still be on the schedule? Are Laguna and Infineon too close together. With the population of California probably not. If the promoter keeps paying I'd say it's a keeper.

16. Kansas - Another "meat grinder." But there are allot of people showing up for this race even though the race is marginal to boring. Last year once the leaders started lapping the field it made it very difficult for the fans to follow what was going on. I was also amazed at how many really old guys that were at this race. If the promoter keeps paying they will probably continue to stick with this track. Ask Ryan Briscoe if he wants to race there? It was scary watching everyone having to dodge Milka.

17. Lauzitring - IndyCar should go here. Remember that 2003 CART race during SeaBass' first season where he raced Mario Dominguez? That was one of the best oval races of all times.

18. Nashville Superspeedway - this pick replaces Phoenix. Cavin says, Nashville is not going anywhere as it is Firestone's home track.

19. Toronto - Andretti Whines 200.

20. Chicagoland Speedway - A meat grinder in waiting.

The ones I don't think should make it.

21. Edmonton Street Course - Promoter has yet to make money. How can you possibly lose money and stay on the schedule? This one will be a "goner" as soon as the contract is up.

22. Portland Road Course - As witnessed at the Champcar races, Portland no longer cares about AOWR. Who knows who's fault it was, but unfortunately this track does not have enough mometum to stay on the schedule. The Promoter would have to pay up for multiple years before you could make a hole in the schedule for this one. Goners.

23. Streets of St. Petersburg - It's hard to imagine that this track can go the distance. Once the baseball stadium is built will this track and spectator areas be good enough? I'm thinking no.

24.

25.

26. Michigan - Didn't International Speedway Corp sabotaged this race in an ongoing effort to kill AOWR. I'd be surprised if IndyCar ever raced at this track again.

Mark in Oshawa

29th March 2008, 18:23

Waldo, You keep insisting the IndyCars should return to Mosport. What part of Mosport couldn't handle it did you NOT read? What part of the marketing that makes the Toronto street race successful makes you think you would truck the same crowd 40 miles up into the hills to Mosport? Have you ever seen the access roads into Mosport? Have you ever noticed the lack of ANYTHING besides the track up there? Nearest store is 6 miles away. Forget anything beyond 5 B and B's in the area for hotels. Most of the people who come to Mosport camp or stay down in Bowmanville, 10 miles to the south or Oshawa.

The REASON Mosport isn't viable is infrastructure. Panoz makes it work for the ALMS because it is a big weekend of camping and partying and ALMS fans are the type who will suffer to see that type of racing. The reason the Canadian GP left in 77 is the SAME reasons it isn't viable for Indy Car.

AS for your hate on for "money losers" in racing, I said it on another thread on this same topic, you are in fantasy land if you think everyone is making money in racing. Did the Toronto race rake in profits every year? Likely no, but I bet you it wasn't a black hole of Calcutta. You show me one article from a non-auto racing writer in the most leftwing, politically correct newspaper in Toronto stating the city was giving the organizers a break on rent because they were losing money in the last few years. I guess the previous 25 to 30 years the race lost money? Did it occur to you once maybe the organizers had no interest in showing a profit to the public? Lets face a few hard truths here. Street races cost money every year to run. No question. But do they cost as much as you state they do? Toronto's infrastructure is all stored on site or nearby. The main cost is labour to put the course together. The sanctioning fees, the rent from the city and the like are fixed costs most years that can be worked within reason. Would this race work at a really first class oval or road course near Toronto? Maybe.....but it would cost a TON more than the cost of building and tearing down the "Indy" course downtown. With the prices we were paying up here for tickets, the advertising bonanza to the Canadian market and the money from the Sponsors (Molson's for the most part), this race was NOT the financial black hole you would like to portray.

As for all events making money, fine....pull Honda out of St. Pete's and what will happen there? How about Long Beach? Take out the massive government subsidies out of Surfer's and it wont stick around. Toronto was getting by on NO subsidy at all really (at least none identified in the papers).

Your bias against street racing is pretty clear. The problem is, you use one small column by a guy who rarely covers anything with racing in a paper that has basically treated the race like the redheaded stepchild the last few years as all the proof you require to understand this Toronto market. As Brent, Namarow and a few others besides me who live here will tell you, the Toronto race was one of the jewels of OW racing and part of the bedrock of CART. If it LOST the money you said it did, it wouldn't have lasted 20 years......

Easy Drifter

29th March 2008, 20:34

The Armco at the Glen is deadly, literally as well as figuratively for open wheel cars. It is the same as it was in the 70's. Poorly installed with large gaps on steel posts that will rip a car apart. There is nothing wrong with Armco properly installed. TG has been lucky. Sooner or later there will be a bad one.

!!WALDO!!

29th March 2008, 23:07

Your bias against street racing is pretty clear. The problem is, you use one small column by a guy who rarely covers anything with racing in a paper that has basically treated the race like the redheaded stepchild the last few years as all the proof you require to understand this Toronto market. As Brent, Namarow and a few others besides me who live here will tell you, the Toronto race was one of the jewels of OW racing and part of the bedrock of CART. If it LOST the money you said it did, it wouldn't have lasted 20 years......

My bias against street racing? Was at Toronto 7 times, Old Detroit 3 times, Belle Isle 3 times. So my bias is clear isn't it?
It is interesting that Toronto starts to lose money and you harken back for the years prior. Hold on to your hat, do you think Dover would have sold Long Beach if it was making money?
So I know that if something conflicts with a person's wishes and desires a person must kill the messenger. Frankly this race does not mean that much any more and if someone wants to do it then it is up to them to decide.

Me, I would save my money and lose it on a Midget Show or a blonde or three.

portlandCARTfan

30th March 2008, 04:28

There are a lot of good thoughts on this thread. I just thought I would add some thoughts on Laguna. My first event was 63 during college. Saw future F1 pilot Ronnie Bucknum absolutely dominate a production race in an MGB against Cobras and Vettes, etc. I love the hill, love the corkscrew, love the views, almost love everything.

But it will not work for IndyCars. CRT by whatever monkier failed there since early 90s. Used to be a huge event but quickly became an empty stadium.

Remember this track is NOT close to SF, it is over 85 miles. and about 56 from San Jose. Sears Point is just over 20 miles from metro SFO and the NASCAR induced amenities, stands, parking, make it pleasant and close.

Laguna Seca saw their major race fall apart and acted. Their Historic weekend is huge, really huge, even a sell out.

But the highlight is MotoGP. This area is a huge bike area (including the entire west coast). Riders are more willing to ride a few hundred miles than many drivers.

But this success came at a cost to open wheel racing. Organizers of MotoGP got the track to move so much dirt and put in literally acres and acres of deep, fine sand to protect the riders. I don't object to that but much of the character has changed and, most important, the sand will suck in an open wheel car that that dares to put even one wheel off course. There is zero fringe close to the track, just asphalt and deep sand. I believe I saw a pro Mazda race there that had close to zero green flag laps.

I love the facility but predict it will never happen. Laguna won't pony up a fee and I don't blame them.

Placid

30th March 2008, 04:32

I think one race in Europe at alternating venues is a good idea - it provides a taste of Indycar for Europe without getting too far away from the core market of North America.

I would go for 2 in the Europe swing. I would dump the Motegi oval for the MotoGP road course. Keep the 1.5 and 2.0 mile ovals in America. Some CC venues should be kept and add the Villeneuve GP track.

indycool

30th March 2008, 13:38

Well, portlandcartfan, what happened to Laguna Seca was a shame, but it happened, much as everybody mishandled Phoenix for the IRL.

Laguna had a good consistent fall date that was drawing well even after the split, but Pook moved the date to June for TV and it died attendance-wise. They tried to move it back to September but the consistency and interest was already gone. Pook screwed with a good thing and it went away.

!!WALDO!!

30th March 2008, 20:24

Well, portlandcartfan, what happened to Laguna Seca was a shame, but it happened, much as everybody mishandled Phoenix for the IRL.

Really, so why in the 1950's and 1960's did the Arizona State Fairgrounds go through a promoter every other year? They made money one year and gave it back the next. It didn’t matter when it went to PIR as they had more shows at the minimum. (I just did the 1968 Phoenix race in my 40 years ago thread and the 6900 on hand which was about average for Phoenix over the years)
Phoenix had a great connection to the sport with Bobby Ball, Jimmy Bryan, Wayne Weiler and Don Davis, but by the time PIR opened they were gone. If you go through LAX you are where Bobby Ball was so injured he would die 18 months later, Langhorne got Bryan, Weiler was injured in a Sprint Car crash and became an owner and Davis, the heir apparent to Bryan was killed after finishing 4th in a Sprint car race at New Bremen, OH. The Phoenix crowd was bad in 1962 and it didn’t help that Elmer George ended up in it. So the history of Phoenix is now disconnected from those now living there. The real racing fans of Phoenix that remember the hay day and places like South Mountain Speedway are long gone from the seen.
Things that hurt this deal were also the better crowd of the two Phoenix races was the fall, Bobby Ball 200. This is the race that was the traditional date going back to the early 1950’s. CART decided that there would be one race at Phoenix so the 35 years of tradition went out the window, went to NASCAR and the 22 year date became now the date. Once NASCAR came in the Open Wheel cars were doomed. The first truck race there had a bigger crowd than the CART race.
Yes when the IRL had 11,000 it was bad but right in line with the race day crowd on the streets of Phoenix for the U.S. Grand Prix with a driver from Phoenix, raised in Rome, Eddie Cheever.
I saw the crowds at the Dirt Copper this year, Silver Crown, Sprints and Midgets, all open wheel cars, and a nice crowd of about 2200. 20 years ago you would have twice that many at Manzy for a Midget show.

So the problems with Laguna are different than Phoenix as the tradition of Phoenix was destroyed in favor of streamlining and dim forecasting for the future. Laguna, moving dates was a fatal move but the number of those that remember what it is like to go to Laguna and walk the track is about the same as those that remember the Arizona State Fairgrounds and its racing.
Today’s fan wants to see the whole track and not pay money to see races on Jumbotrons. NASCAR/ICS/SMI listened to the fans and built tracks that can be seen from all seats. The race fans here hate that, but there are more of those fans than these fans.

For me, I got sunburned many times at PIR and in the shadows of Fort Ord. I made a suggestion to do a race between Somona and Belle Isle at not on the road course billed with G-A at PIR. Of course I was called an idiot, but it is ok to insult me.

indycool

30th March 2008, 22:30

!!WALDO!!

30th March 2008, 22:50

Good history, WALDO, especially about the Fairgrounds in Phoenix. But Dennis Wood, then Buddy Jobe, owned Phoenix before ISC and built the open-wheel program there. Phoenix was first to commit to a CART race in '79 and first to commit to an IRL race in '96. Wood built the Copper World into a national class event and when ISC took over, it screwed around with both the Copper World and IRL race enough to kill off both of them.

Incidentally, Wayne Weiler ran a ranch up on South Mountain off 19th Avenue near the T-Bone Steak House for years until passing away recently. Manzanita kept up the tradition of oval racing in Phoenix and Wood, last I heard, was a cnsultant there and it was holding a Copper World type program. And there are still Phoenix folk coming to Indy cars, most notably native Buddy Rice and transplanted resident Danica Patrick.

Before Dennis and Buddy there where people like J.C. Agajanian that lost a load of money on the Spring Show and made some of it back in the Fall. You seem to know Dennis ask him.
ISC could only save a track like PIR as Open Wheel attendence was in a free fall in the Valley of the Sun, since CART said no more fall races. Carl Haas, Roger Penske and Johnny Capels noted that in 1988-1994. The Copper Classic like many shows of its sort, ran its course. Shows like that just do. Truth be known more people started showing up for the Southwest Tour than the Supers, Silvers and Midgets.
I was down at Wayne's ranch years ago in the mid 1960's but I couldn't tell you where. Been to Manzanita more times than I have posted here. My favorite place to waste money on this sport but things are not all rosie there right now. The WoO announce they have cancelled Manzanita. Too expensive for too few fans.
Yes Buddy is from Phoenix but he did not bring anyone to the PIR as a 500 winner. My point was in my post, the core fans are gone. The core fans of Open Wheel are at Manzanita and we need to get Buddy and Danica into the Mighty Midgets of Arizona Feature and maybe Manzanita will see 4500 fans but not enough to get PIR back.

BrentJackson

1st April 2008, 03:59

It was the CCWS that lowered its sanction to the Pook "Portland Deal". Otherwise, RA, Portland, Cleveland would be gone. That is why Montreal was gone, the promoter wanted the "Portland Deal."

Montreal is gone because the promoter stabbed Champ Car in the back. Period. I found it ironic that he came groveling back three months later and set us up at Mont-Tremblant.

Waldo, Mosport will not work for Indycars - its a different crowd. I've been to Mosport ALMS 7 times, CART/Champ Car Toronto 11 times. I know it better than you. Take my word for that, yes?

The race is no doubt expensive to set up - most such races are. But I have little doubt that it can be profitable, because if it lost money for so long, why has it run 22 CART/CCWS races? You think Molson was stomaching losses for that long? Forget it.

indycool

1st April 2008, 13:09

Molson was in the unique position of being both promoter and sponsor. Any losses on the race were written off as part of the advertising budget. Situation doesn't exist now.

nanders

1st April 2008, 14:33

After hearing Tony George on Cavin and Kevin last week, he pretty much dismissed a chance of the ICS returning to Phoenix. Which is too bad because it is a very cool track and I believe IndyCar should do everything they could to get back in that market and on that track.

Even though I have put Toronto back on my "wish list" I cannot see how they can afford it. Is there a sponsor that has the sheer marketing force to back Andretti and Co. with enough stuff to get it done? I'm with Waldo on this. Until a sponsor with enough horse power and will, to do it is found, it's doubtful that this can be profitable. I say that because I don't think Toronto could ever be profitable, so you will need a sponsor willing to work hard for it's red ink.

Remember this track is NOT close to SF, it is over 85 miles. and about 56 from San Jose. Sears Point is just over 20 miles from metro SFO and the NASCAR induced amenities, stands, parking, make it pleasant and close.

Laguna Seca saw their major race fall apart and acted. Their Historic weekend is huge, really huge, even a sell out.

But the highlight is MotoGP. This area is a huge bike area (including the entire west coast). Riders are more willing to ride a few hundred miles than many drivers.

But this success came at a cost to open wheel racing. Organizers of MotoGP got the track to move so much dirt and put in literally acres and acres of deep, fine sand to protect the riders. I don't object to that but much of the character has changed and, most important, the sand will suck in an open wheel car that that dares to put even one wheel off course. There is zero fringe close to the track, just asphalt and deep sand. I believe I saw a pro Mazda race there that had close to zero green flag laps.

I love the facility but predict it will never happen. Laguna won't pony up a fee and I don't blame them.

portlandCARTfan, These observations are almost to good to not be true. I lived in the Bay Area 6 years and it's a busy busy place with long drive times and high on expenses. Bay Area people do their lives a little bit different from Mid-West folks. They do the "weekend vacation." And Monterey / Carmel is one of their main destinations. There are plenty of hotels and additional things for the race fan to do, it's hard to not want to go back there. The track management wants a open wheel race. Race fans want to go there.

When I lived there in the mid 80's people wanted to go to the race. It has some excellent viewing locations that overcome many problems encountered at other road courses.

Not only are people from California into bikes but they see themselves as being more sophisticated then the "fly over" people. And road racing is more sophisticated then NASCAR.

I personally believe, properly promoted that Laguna could make a comeback even with all the sand. In our SIM Racing league Laguna has this sandy features built into it and yes when you get off course you are nearly toast. But still 3/4 of the starters finished the race and now with the improved race track, it is race-able.

Dr. Krogshöj

1st April 2008, 17:14

As long as the promoter pays a decent sanctioning fee to the IRL, and the team sponsors get exposure in a big market, why do we worry about whether the promoter or the city makes money or not? It's up to them.

!!WALDO!!

1st April 2008, 18:27

Montreal is gone because the promoter stabbed Champ Car in the back. Period. I found it ironic that he came groveling back three months later and set us up at Mont-Tremblant.

What is the "Portland Deal"? That is pretty much a stab in the back but to who. Would you pay $3,500,000 for a show that someone else is getting for $1,400,000? Maybe you would but a real promoter wouldn't.

Waldo, Mosport will not work for Indycars - its a different crowd. I've been to Mosport ALMS 7 times, CART/Champ Car Toronto 11 times. I know it better than you. Take my word for that, yes?

Been to Mosport for Indy Cars in 1968 and 1977, been to Toronto 7 times so how much better than me do you know? Frankly with 1/10 the population of the U.S. and 1 out of 25 drivers, then one race is enough. Notice that CASCAR does real well and NASCAR, the largest series in the U.S. does a minor league show there. ALMS races in Canada how many times? How about Grand-Am. Yet if it was up to you you would have 5 races in Canada. Truth is the CCWS could not find any more suckers in the U.S. to waste their money on that series.
Mosport was a cheaper option. Look the Indianapolis 500 pays out over $10,000,000 in purses, has a total bill for the Month of May of $21,000,000. They get $18,000,000 from ABC and picks up $3,000,000 in sponsorship. A Net cost of ZERO.
Now you have a race that is at least $15,000,000 and paid $425,000 in purses to the CCWS and $195,000 to Atlantics with at best $3,000,000 in Sponsorship. I know in the fantasy world of the CCWS, Toronto makes money the 500 does not.
In 2006 the 500 lost money!! Only for the books as the Road Course had to be paid off.

The race is no doubt expensive to set up - most such races are. But I have little doubt that it can be profitable, because if it lost money for so long, why has it run 22 CART/CCWS races? You think Molson was stomaching losses for that long? Forget it.

Never said Molson lost money all those years. The more money that is preceived made, the more hands that come out wanting theirs. If "you" do not know the costs and "you" do math you can think that "they" are making huge money. So "you" as a supplier increase your price by 6% each year. If "they" were making huge money, they are no longer after 5 years because what you are supplying them is now 30% more.
So in the world of the CCWS supporter, the cost of doing a show in 1986 is the same in 2007. Reality tells you the crowd is the around the same but the ticket prices cannot go up enough to cover those wanting a "taste" of the show.
Again, Kalkhoven and Forsythe bought this show and Long Beach and took Long Beach and hung Toronto out to dry. This is not the IRL, Tony George or Waldo, this is those people that "you" put your faith sticking it to you and one in particular that closes his team and will not allow Canada's biggest star race.

As I have said I would go to Brazil and the Canadian round would be Edmonton and that would be it.