dc: kick the 'blank' out of the little 'blank'

[jonny hurlock]

guess who his talking about his best friend massa, while taking to louise on itv a moment ago,

btw blank words are swear words

[Cozzie]

I can recall DC notching up another blank at one point last year, if you can't beat em, blank em!

[Ranger]

That accident just looked like a racing incident though. Unlike Kubica and Nakajima's crash which was just stupid under SC (pretty much, anyway).

[SGWilko]

I see it as six of one, half a dozen of the other.

Massa was being very optimistic after screwing his race up, DC was never going to make it easy for him....

[markabilly]

DC screwed up BIG TIME and needs to have all those Blanks shoved

Was a time when being on the inside gave one the right of way, let see, like JV and MS at a certain race..........

I say ban him for two races (one race for his failure at driving on the track and the second for running his mouth)

I say Blank DC!!!!!!

[Tazio]

With DC's Front hiting FM's rear when FM had the inside line is Buchetheads F'up!

[F1boat]

I think that massa was idiotic, very optimistic attack, could have killed the guy. Crazy son of a... blank ;)

[SGWilko]

I think that massa was idiotic, very optimistic attack, could have killed the guy. Crazy son of a... blank ;)

It all boils down to whether Massa made the move early enough. DC has to take the corner after all. He really ought to have been clearly ahead going into the corner, not hoping DC will give him a free ride.

I still say they are both to blame, and in that case you'd have to chalk it up as a racing incident.

Is Filippe returning to his wild Sauber form?

[markabilly]

I think that massa was idiotic, very optimistic attack, could have killed the guy. Crazy son of a... blank ;)


It all boils down to whether Massa made the move early enough. DC has to take the corner after all. He really ought to have been clearly ahead going into the corner, not hoping DC will give him a free ride.

I still say they are both to blame, and in that case you'd have to chalk it up as a racing incident.

Is Filippe returning to his wild Sauber form?
Sorry, but that was a poor move for DC. Massa had him clearly all the way into the corner approach. No different than what LH did to Kimi at Monza, except Kimi chose not to crash into him unlike DC, -----well actually DC did have more of an opportunity to avoid the contact than did Kimster, so...... quit being so patriotic.....


besdies anytime a driver can get even (and in this case he was actually ahead and DC front wheel came into contact with Massa) the other driver should yield as a matter of right of way....

[F1boat]

markability, I am a Bulgarian ;)

[markabilly]

markability, I am a Bulgarian ;)
I swear there is an english accent in your posts.....better lay off the kool aid.....as such, there is hope for you yet :D

[Hawkmoon]

This one lies squarely at DC's door. Massa had the Ferrari alongside the Red Bull at the end of the stratight and by the time they turned in for the corner Massa's left front hit the leading edge of the Red Bull's side pod.

DC admitted he saw Massa yet turned in anyway. DC should have conceded the corner as there was little chance he was going to retain his position without a collision.

His comments were very entertaining though! :D

[bblocker68]

That was a chop. DC saw him coming. He just didn't want to give up the corner. Seems like DC gets passed a lot more than he does any passing.

[SGWilko]

by the time they turned in for the corner Massa's left front hit the leading edge of the Red Bull's side pod.
:D

Massa was not ahead then, so did not 'own' the corner.

Yes, DC should have given him room, but it takes two to tango.....

[jens]

DC and Massa don't seem to understand each other's racing too well. They had a very similar collision in the 2006 Chinese Grand Prix too.

What's with DC and Albert Park? - he has had a collision for a third year in a row on that circuit. :p :

[Hawkmoon]

Massa was not ahead then, so did not 'own' the corner.

Yes, DC should have given him room, but it takes two to tango.....

Don't you think Massa had enough of his car inside DC's to prevent DC from turning in? Massa's left front hit the front of DC's sidepod. That means that Massa had more than 3/4 of his car inside DC when the Scot, by his own admission, deliberately turned in on the Ferrari.

The corner was Massa's and DC should have given him room and then tried to push him wide into Turn 2 as DC would have had the inside line for the left hander.

[SGWilko]

Don't you think Massa had enough of his car inside DC's to prevent DC from turning in? Massa's left front hit the front of DC's sidepod. That means that Massa had more than 3/4 of his car inside DC when the Scot, by his own admission, deliberately turned in on the Ferrari.

The corner was Massa's and DC should have given him room and then tried to push him wide into Turn 2 as DC would have had the inside line for the left hander.

As I've stated earlier, I really think it is both their fault. My view is that the overtaker needs to be ahead of the overtakee in order to block them from turning.

JMHO

[Valve Bounce]

Something to do with the vision, as Martin put it, which is extremely limited. But, it was a very frightening experience for DC.

[truefan72]

bvoth were at fault massa (28%) for trying to squeeze by, Dc (72%)for slamming the door shut, and aggressively cutting inside when he adopted a wide line going into the turn.
His antics and comments certainly did him no favors. From the start he was consitently going backwards so I'm not sure what his qualm was.
Alonso could have taken both he and HK out but didn't. The good driver knows that he can take back his position with good driving.

[ioan]

DC was an idiot, he makes a stupid mistake every year.
Massa's move was no where optimistic, he was along the RedBull and on the inside of the corner. DC shut the door and left no room at all.
For those who consider that Massa was optimistic I wonder what they thought about DC's move on Wurz one year ago. :rolleyes:

For DC is time to leave F1, he doesn't cut it anymore.

[ArrowsFA1]

For those who consider that Massa was optimistic I wonder what they thought about DC's move on Wurz one year ago.
This is what DC himself says about that incident: "I screwed up last year when I tried a speculative move on Alex, but I took full responsibility for it."

In this case, according to Massa, "I was on the inside, I did nothing wrong." Launching the Red Bull by hitting its rear wheel with the Ferrari's front suggests it wasn't quite "nothing". The mere fact of being on the inside does not make him blameless, although DC should have given Massa more racing room. Something to do with the cockpit protection restricting his vision perhaps?

[Daniel]

This is what DC himself says about that incident: "I screwed up last year when I tried a speculative move on Alex, but I took full responsibility for it."

In this case, according to Massa, "I was on the inside, I did nothing wrong." Launching the Red Bull by hitting its rear wheel with the Ferrari's front suggests it wasn't quite "nothing". The mere fact of being on the inside does not make him blameless, although DC should have given Massa more racing room. Something to do with the cockpit protection restricting his vision perhaps?
Yes but they are two different moves. DC was never going to make his stick. Massa was. Massa was already up there with DC and DC just had a mad dive last year and went into Wurz.

[millencolin]

it doesnt matter who's fault it was... The fact is that DC gave the grand prix some HUMOUR! something you dont get with every race. I Blanked myself laughing after that interview. Must be something with the red bull drivers, they are not afraid to express their emotions verbally to the wide world (remember Webber at Fuji). Good to see drivers with real emotions instead of the PC conscious stereotypical drivers that brace the majority of the pit lane now-a-days.

[Schultz]

I agree... It is always nice to hear Louise Goodman's reaction to expletives. She seems like she is the kind that would genuinly be offended by the use of such words eevn if she wasn't on tv. It is always a good laugh.

Having said that, I don't like DC. You always know to take whatever he says with a grain of salt. Like when he proclaims he is better than Webber, ot that "This is my year" or that this accident was not his fault.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

What I found particularly telling was Martin Brundle in the commentary. On first viewing the accident he obviouly thought it was Coulthard's fault but couldn't bring himslef to say it. He phrased it any way he could without blaming David or making him look bad.

Don't get me wrong Brundle is good guy, but his impartiality has left alot to be desired in the last few years. Being a drivers manager & a commentator are surely a conflict of interests?

[ioan]

This is what DC himself says about that incident: "I screwed up last year when I tried a speculative move on Alex, but I took full responsibility for it."

In this case, according to Massa, "I was on the inside, I did nothing wrong." Launching the Red Bull by hitting its rear wheel with the Ferrari's front suggests it wasn't quite "nothing". The mere fact of being on the inside does not make him blameless, although DC should have given Massa more racing room. Something to do with the cockpit protection restricting his vision perhaps?

Take a look again and tell me who's wheel hit the others wheel.

It was interesting to see how a rear RBR wheel didn't resist the shock but a Frerrari front wheel did. It was sweet to see DC punished right away for his reckless move!
As for his stupid comments: "Grow up David, grow up!"

PS: I wonder if he ever tried to shift the fault on the pit entry wall back in 94 (not sure about the year though)!

[markabilly]

As I've stated earlier, I really think it is both their fault. My view is that the overtaker needs to be ahead of the overtakee in order to block them from turning.

JMHO
So then you must have protested long and hard at the injustice (based on this logic) done to MS by the FIA when JV was not ahead of a certain Ferrari.......and kept his second place in the wdc that year.....or perhaps JV was the one that should have been penalized

opps I forgot---Massa is NOT british nor even Canadian, and Dc is a brit.....so yeah, poor DC!!! what a shame and injustice to get wrecked out by crazy south american "blank" driving a Ferrari :D

[SGWilko]

So then you must have protested long and hard at the injustice (based on this logic) done to MS by the FIA when JV was not ahead of a certain Ferrari.......and kept his second place in the wdc that year.....or perhaps JV was the one that should have been penalized

opps I forgot---Massa is NOT british nor even Canadian, and Dc is a brit.....so yeah, poor DC!!! what a shame and injustice to get wrecked out by crazy south american "blank" driving a Ferrari :D

Baaaaa. Erm, Michael whacked JV squarely in the middle of the Williams sidepod with his fron wheel, JV was half a car length ahead.

Never mind.....

[Robinho]

the onus should squarley be on the overtaker to make it stick, and if he isn't level by the apex then he hasn't made the move stick.
perhaps DC should have let him have a little more room, but IMO it was his line to take, and the contact was Massa's front against the rear/side of DC's - how can you drive the back of your car into the front of someone elses when moving forwards?

whilst i don't think DC is entirely blameless by any means i think the bulk of the blame lays with Massa, he needed to be in a position to stop DC trying to take the corner by being completley alongside at the least, not just driving into the side of people because they have the temerity to try and retain their position

[harsha]

think the same yardstick has to apply to all drivers doesn't it...

if MS made the mistake DC made,would Ioan have made the statement that DC should leave f1 and all that???

[ioan]

think the same yardstick has to apply to all drivers doesn't it...

if MS made the mistake DC made,would Ioan have made the statement that DC should leave f1 and all that???

I'm afraid that being an MS fan spared me the embarrassments that DC fans had put up with! :D

[ioan]

Let's say that DC is just annoyed that someone tried to pull that move on him.
In fact if you take a look to overtaking moves or attempts made on DC during the last seasons he almost always made contact with the overtakers car, and not once did it finish in tears I won't even mention how some of his few overtaking attempts finished.

The guy is past it and can't admit it.

Look how cleverly Rubens kept Kimi behind him for so many laps. That was classy driving, not what DC did. He should be ashamed for the way he talks live about fellow F1 drivers.

Knowing that he won't be there anymore next season makes him behave like a moron.

[markabilly]

the onus should squarley be on the overtaker to make it stick, and if he isn't level by the apex then he hasn't made the move stick.
perhaps DC should have let him have a little more room, but IMO it was his line to take, and the contact was Massa's front against the rear/side of DC's - how can you drive the back of your car into the front of someone elses when moving forwards?

whilst i don't think DC is entirely blameless by any means i think the bulk of the blame lays with Massa, he needed to be in a position to stop DC trying to take the corner by being completley alongside at the least, not just driving into the side of people because they have the temerity to try and retain their position
Some of you need to look again at the film/video of the incident. Massa was even with him, long before the apex. A classic pass under braking into the corner.
Massa slows and DC hits him by turning into him. Right before point of impact, the front wheel of DC is slightly behind the front wheel of Massa. In the process of the bump, DC eventually goes past massa and his right rear wheel hits the back of the front wheel of massa.

It really shows the difference between Kimi at Monza and DC at Australia.

Kimi had less time to respond yet crunched not the car of LH.

At slower speed and with more time to respond, DC has a car that is in front of him, be it ever so slightly, and drives as though the car is not there. And that is the best excuse to give for DC, something like "I just did not see him", but no, it is just the opposite: much screaming at a proper pass as though that is enough to erase the video of the incident.

Now you know why taping the race is bettter than watching boring lap after boring lap lap and boring lap.
I get to watch Massa and DC collided over and over again. And everytime, DC has been passed.

And I think that if the front wheels of the car to the inside are level where the driver of the outside car sits, then the outside car should be required to make room. "Closing the door" should only occur if NO PART OF the inside car is along side, so there can be no contact when the door is closed.

otherwise forget passing.

[Bezza]

In the case of a overtaking manoeuvre it is the responsibility of the overtaker to perform the move cleanly, it is not the responsibility of the overtakee to just let him through.

Therefore, this incident is Massa's fault. He stuck his car in no mans land - neither ahead nor behind, in DC's blind spot, and the inevitable collision occurred.

As for DC's comments - I cracked up and rewinded the live Sky+ to hear them again! :laugh:

[yodasarmpit]

I'm a DC fan for obvious reasons, but to me it looked like a 60 - 40 in favour of Massa.
However, the comment had me laughing for some time after the incident :)

[ioan]

In the case of a overtaking manoeuvre it is the responsibility of the overtaker to perform the move cleanly, it is not the responsibility of the overtakee to just let him through.

Therefore, this incident is Massa's fault. He stuck his car in no mans land - neither ahead nor behind, in DC's blind spot, and the inevitable collision occurred.

As for DC's comments - I cracked up and rewinded the live Sky+ to hear them again! :laugh:

F1 drivers take notes, don't even try to overtake because if the noob wakes up to late and turns into you it's your fault,according to DC and his fans! :D :laugh:

[janneppi]

Massa should have realised he wasn't going to get past DC and back off. DC should have paid more attention. Sucks to both of them.

[Daniel]

In the case of a overtaking manoeuvre it is the responsibility of the overtaker to perform the move cleanly, it is not the responsibility of the overtakee to just let him through.

Errrrrr no. You're wrong there. DC's comments although amusing showed his lack of class as a person in addition to the lack of racecraft he'd shown a few minutes before. There's closing the door on someone, there's closing the door on someone's foot and then as DC showed last year there's running through a door that was never open and almost seriously injuring Wurz in the process.

[Daniel]

Massa should have realised he wasn't going to get past DC and back off. DC should have paid more attention. Sucks to both of them.

Thing is Massa had got in there and any other driver would have realised they were being hung out to dry and taken a pop at the other driver at the next corner. Heikki and Fernando managed to dice with each other and resolve their differences peacefully. Fernando pushed Heikki out and Heikki had the common sense to yield and he was rewarded at the next corner. It might take two to tango but it only takes one unyielding driver to have an accident.

[janneppi]

It might take two to tango but it only takes one unyielding driver to have an accident.
And in this case there were two of those drivers. ;)

[gloomyDAY]

Yeah, it's called racing. There is no one to blame because both were doing their job. Nothing should come of this and DC should have kept his mouth shut. Doesn't matter if Massa takes responsibility or not. DC's focus should be in the next race and making Red Bull successful.

On a side note, I have to agree with Ioan. DC's days are numbered and he doesn't deserve a spot on the grid. His half-hearted race in Austraila, pre-season whining over traction control, and insecurity over the rumors of Alonso joining Red Bull have left a bitter taste in my mouth. Maybe he should join Fisi in the dumps!

[Daniel]

And in this case there were two of those drivers. ;)
DC was beaten in the corner. He should have been a big boy and realised this. How many points would he have got if he hadn't nerfed Massa? How many points did he score? :) I think an intelligent driver would have used that reasoning rather than hoping that shutting the door would make everything good.

I guess that's the difference between tier 1 drivers like Kimi, Lewis, Loeb, Gronholm and co and people who are good but don't have the brains to yield and settle for points over a DNF.

[BDunnell]

What I found particularly telling was Martin Brundle in the commentary. On first viewing the accident he obviouly thought it was Coulthard's fault but couldn't bring himslef to say it. He phrased it any way he could without blaming David or making him look bad.

Don't get me wrong Brundle is good guy, but his impartiality has left alot to be desired in the last few years. Being a drivers manager & a commentator are surely a conflict of interests?

I have never noticed him being anything other than utterly fair in his comments about Coulthard, and the same was true today.

As regards the incident itself, while I think it was a racing accident and that these things happen, it seems to me that the 'he got up the inside' excuse is going a bit far. As Bezza says, the views of some people here would suggest that they feel every position should be given up without a fight and that every move where a collision results from the driver in front turning in is somehow down to the stupidity of that driver. I don't agree with this.

That corner is also quite a tricky one in these circumstances because it's quite quick at the apex. If someone tries to make a dive down the inside there, the manoeuvre happens much more quickly than if it involved braking to a lower speed.

[janneppi]

DC was beaten in the corner. He should have been a big boy and realised this. How many points would he have got if he hadn't nerfed Massa? How many points did he score? :) I think an intelligent driver would have used that reasoning rather than hoping that shutting the door would make everything good.


You can say exactly the same for Massa, had he waited for a realistic chance he would have not caused the SC period with DC.
Massa was nowhere near owning that corner, if you're going to make it stick, you'd better do properly.

[markabilly]

And in this case there were two of those drivers. ;)
Anther example of a post that demonstrates what is wrong with F1 and why little passing. Plain and simple, if Massa was not in the right, then he should not have been there. However the evidence shows a good and proper pass, and there was a time, such behavior as by DC was not tolerated, then things started changing in the 80's and got worse and worse. It is ALWAYS possible to shut the door on someone by refusing to let them pass by running into the side of a car that is on the inside.

Thought it might end with MS penalty and loss of second place in the WDC. But no.

So add this to one of the reasons there is no passing in F1. Fear that the driver being passed is going to close the door. Not long before you get there, but after you are there and close to being gone. And when he does, you will be the little "blank"

In my good old days of dirt tracking where contact was an absolutely given to happenn on each and every lap, that was one thing. But in road racing, when the other driver had the inside line, your responsibilty was to not crash into him. In F1, apparently, it has become quite okay to do crash them out and it has been like this for years.

If DC was doing the right thing, he should have backed off, let him go through, hope he goes wide giving him an opportunity to duck inside him.

But no, it is just fine to have a "racing incident" and use it not only for this occaision but to send a message, try to go by and I will crash you out.

Gee whiz.....give MS his second place WDC back, or make this a rule that drivers must live by (and I do mean "live", because there was a time if one wanted to live, one did not do this sort of thing at all......so the cars are safer does not mean that it is okay to shut the door when it can not be done without hitting the other driver.)

[BDunnell]

Gee whiz.....give MS his second place WDC back, or make this a rule that drivers must live by (and I do mean "live", because there was a time if one wanted to live, one did not do this sort of thing at all......so the cars are safer does not mean that it is okay to shut the door when it can not be done without hitting the other driver.)

But that incident at Jerez — which there's no real reason to go over again, in my view — was deliberate. There's a big difference.

[markabilly]

You can say exactly the same for Massa, had he waited for a realistic chance he would have not caused the SC period with DC.
Massa was nowhere near owning that corner, if you're going to make it stick, you'd better do properly.
The action with Kimi and HK showed HK take the proper line, and ducked under. HK did not crash into his side. So as to why DC did not do the same thing, demonstrates the fact that DC blew it pure and simple. .


Anther example of a post that demonstrates what is wrong with F1 and why little passing. Plain and simple, if Massa was not in the right, then he should not have been there. However the evidence shows a good and proper pass, and there was a time, such behavior as by DC was not tolerated, then things started changing in the 80's and got worse and worse. It is ALWAYS possible to shut the door on someone by refusing to let them pass by running into the side of a car that is on the inside.

Thought it might end with MS penalty and loss of second place in the WDC. But no.

So add this to one of the reasons there is no passing in F1. Fear that the driver being passed is going to close the door. Not long before you get there, but after you are there and close to being gone. And when he does, you will be the little "blank"

In my good old days of dirt tracking where contact was an absolutely given to happenn on each and every lap, that was one thing. But in road racing, when the other driver had the inside line, your responsibilty was to not crash into him. In F1, apparently, it has become quite okay to do crash them out and it has been like this for years.

If DC was doing the right thing, he should have backed off, let him go through, hope he goes wide giving him an opportunity to duck inside him.

But no, it is just fine to have a "racing incident" and use it not only for this occaision but to send a message, try to go by and I will crash you out.

Gee whiz.....give MS his second place WDC back, or make this a rule that drivers must live by (and I do mean "live", because there was a time if one wanted to live, one did not do this sort of thing at all......so the cars are safer does not mean that it is okay to shut the door when it can not be done without hitting the other driver.)

[markabilly]

But that incident at Jerez — which there's no real reason to go over again, in my view — was deliberate. There's a big difference.
Yes, there is a big difference: DC was at the wheel here and MS was at the wheel in Jerez and had more to lose.

[Sleeper]

Racing accident IMO, DC could have left a bit more room but Massa did come in with a late lunge.

[truefan72]

Let's say that DC is just annoyed that someone tried to pull that move on him.
In fact if you take a look to overtaking moves or attempts made on DC during the last seasons he almost always made contact with the overtakers car, and not once did it finish in tears I won't even mention how some of his few overtaking attempts finished.

The guy is past it and can't admit it.

Look how cleverly Rubens kept Kimi behind him for so many laps. That was classy driving, not what DC did. He should be ashamed for the way he talks live about fellow F1 drivers.

Knowing that he won't be there anymore next season makes him behave like a moron.

gotta agree with Ioan on this one

[jso1985]

racing incident to me, noone at real fault, probably DC is a bit more faulty, but that's racing, sometimes overtaking works sometimes not...

Where I think DC is an idiot is with his moaning...

[ioan]

Massa should have realised he wasn't going to get past DC and back off.

The day he stays put behind DC I won't root for him anymore.
There was the space required, and he had the speed to go by until blockhead wake up from his daydreaming and decided to ruin his own race.

[ioan]

You can say exactly the same for Massa, had he waited for a realistic chance he would have not caused the SC period with DC.
Massa was nowhere near owning that corner, if you're going to make it stick, you'd better do properly.

Had he waited... bla bla bla!
Racing is about taking every possible advantage that your opponent yields. What more advantage than a napping Scot!

Sorry Mr Moderator but you know square zero about racing. Better turn to rallying, there is no passing involved. ;)

[ioan]

But that incident at Jerez — which there's no real reason to go over again, in my view — was deliberate. There's a big difference.

This one was deliberate too, unless you believe that DC's car turned left on it's own.

[SGWilko]

There is a video clip on ITV website, its from Massa's on board camera.

Sory folks, but he NEVER gets ahead of DC, in fact Massa's front wheel is not even ahead of DC's sidepod as DC begins his turn in.

Massa overcooked it, tried an optimistic move from too far back.

The more I watch it, the more I think DC is the innocent victim of Massa the Sauber driver of old.....

In fact, I am surprised Massa does not get a penalty for Malaysia, but I guess as ihe DNF'd, it is immiterial.

You really need to watch this on board shot, it makes it VERY clear....

[ioan]

There is a video clip on ITV website, its from Massa's on board camera.

Sory folks, but he NEVER gets ahead of DC, in fact Massa's front wheel is not even ahead of DC's sidepod as DC begins his turn in.

Massa overcooked it, tried an optimistic move from too far back.

The more I watch it, the more I think DC is the innocent victim of Massa the Sauber driver of old.....

In fact, I am surprised Massa does not get a penalty for Malaysia, but I guess as ihe DNF'd, it is immiterial.

You really need to watch this on board shot, it makes it VERY clear....

I saw it many times, and also with non-English commentary by a former F1 driver, and he said DC was a dick head.

Anyway justice was served then and there.

[Daniel]

There is a video clip on ITV website, its from Massa's on board camera.

Sory folks, but he NEVER gets ahead of DC, in fact Massa's front wheel is not even ahead of DC's sidepod as DC begins his turn in.

Massa overcooked it, tried an optimistic move from too far back.

The more I watch it, the more I think DC is the innocent victim of Massa the Sauber driver of old.....

In fact, I am surprised Massa does not get a penalty for Malaysia, but I guess as ihe DNF'd, it is immiterial.

You really need to watch this on board shot, it makes it VERY clear....


http://www.itv-f1.com/VideoHighlights.aspx

I think you need to watch again then!

Watch the whole clip. Brundle himself says that Massa was not wrong and Brundle is Mr Biased British ex-driver extraodinaire :laugh:

I don't believe any driver should be penalised for what happened at all. It was a racing incident but at the end of the day if you watch it with your glasses on you'll see if anyone was more at fault it was DC. If you're going to penalise DC or Massa then why not ban overtaking on the track and keep it to pitstops and so on.

I hate to use James Allen as "evidence" but he says this and given his bias towards British drivers I think it says it all.

The general view here is that he was not at fault for the accident with David Coulthard, but he’d compromised his race by then anyway.

Here
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&id=42004

[SGWilko]

I saw it many times, and also with non-English commentary by a former F1 driver, and he said DC was a dick head.


DC may well have genitalia protruding from his forehead, but if Massa aint in front at the end of the attempted pass, the pass aint made.

The track camera paralax angle is very misleading, the onboard view cements my conclusion that DC is in the right.

[truefan72]

There is a video clip on ITV website, its from Massa's on board camera.

Sory folks, but he NEVER gets ahead of DC, in fact Massa's front wheel is not even ahead of DC's sidepod as DC begins his turn in.

Massa overcooked it, tried an optimistic move from too far back.

The more I watch it, the more I think DC is the innocent victim of Massa the Sauber driver of old.....

In fact, I am surprised Massa does not get a penalty for Malaysia, but I guess as ihe DNF'd, it is immiterial.

You really need to watch this on board shot, it makes it VERY clear....

well you leave out the vvery important part of massa surging ahead of him in the turn, if he wasn't we wouldn't consider it "passing" would we? LOL

DC clearly knew Massa was "passing" him and decided to (quite foolishly) to close the door on him, even though he was well out wide of the optimm line and truth be told, if he had cut that angle the way hie did,probably couldn't have stuck the next turn properly.

4 things could have happened under DC's scenario.
1.Massa would have braked hard and clipped DC's back wheels, forcing him to spin and shunting him.

2. Massa could have been forced completely into the grass and probably crashed, cuasing DC to receive a penalty for aggressive driving and/or disqualification for reckless maneauvers that endangred another driver

3. Massa's nose would have been destroyed and his car would have taken the brunt of the contact forcing him to retire or crawl around back to the pits.

4. The outcome that we saw.

None of these 4 options would have served DC any good,
So he should have yielded and tried to take back the position on the track

Then again Dc has never displayed any class in the last 3 years in being overtaked or trying to overtake people. He thinks that becauuase of his seniority in F1 he gets some sort of special dispensation from other drivers instead of realizing that more than often, he is a roadbloack out there. More often getting passed than passing.

[ioan]

but if Massa aint in front at the end of the attempted pass, the pass aint made.

Judging by that I can say that the pass was made!

[BDunnell]

Everyone is ignoring the point that it wasn't deliberate on the part of either driver, because neither wanted their race to be ruined; the fact that mistakes like this get made; and the particular difficulty of suddenly diving underneath someone at a corner like that, which doesn't involve a huge brake.

[SGWilko]

Judging by that I can say that the pass was made!

Shame it wasn't a clean pass though, eh?

[Daniel]

Everyone is ignoring the point that it wasn't deliberate on the part of either driver, because neither wanted their race to be ruined; the fact that mistakes like this get made; and the particular difficulty of suddenly diving underneath someone at a corner like that, which doesn't involve a huge brake.

Rather. I don't think anyone will claim that what DC did was mallicious or anything. But I think that DC was the one who had more fault in the incident if only by 1% in my eyes :)

I think it's amazing that someone thinks that Massa should be penalised for Malaysia :crazy: This sort of thing happens and you will never stop it and if you did the drivers would only pass on straights.

[ioan]

Shame it wasn't a clean pass though, eh?

I fully agree! All thanks to DC. :s

PS: And I was no DC "hatter" since Magny Cours 2003 when he publicly stated that the Spa 98 incident was his fault. I thought that he was finally a mature person. His comments today changed my opinion about him again. But hey he might redeem himself again in 2013! ;)

[yodasarmpit]

Looking at it again, it still looks like a racing incident, maybe slightly in favour of Massa.

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc01.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc02.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc03.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc04.jpg

[BDunnell]

I think it's amazing that someone thinks that Massa should be penalised for Malaysia :crazy: This sort of thing happens and you will never stop it and if you did the drivers would only pass on straights.

I agree. This is why the vitriol and digs following these incidents wear me out a bit.

[Daniel]

I fully agree! All thanks to DC. :s

I think you're somewhat missing the point Ioan. If Massa's car was silver it would have been clean but the car is red so a bit no no. When Lewis did a similar thing to Massa last year in Monza and then failed to make it across the chicane that was clean because his car is silver. I hope this clears up any problems mate :up: Funny how Massa didn't take Hamilton out last year when he was in the same situation :laugh:

[BDunnell]

PS: And I was no DC "hatter" since Magny Cours 2003 when he publicly stated that the Spa 98 incident was his fault. I thought that he was finally a mature person.

There are those who would disagree with his own assessment of that incident, me included (and, as I hope you now realise, I am no MS hater), but I fear that is now taking this thread off topic.

[BDunnell]

I think you're somewhat missing the point Ioan. If Massa's car was silver it would have been clean but the car is red so a bit no no. When Lewis did a similar thing to Massa last year in Monza and then failed to make it across the chicane that was clean because his car is silver. I hope this clears up any problems mate :up: Funny how Massa didn't take Hamilton out last year when he was in the same situation :laugh:

Not everyone who doesn't think this incident was Coulthard's fault thinks that way either. And I've had enough of the conspiracy theory jokes for one season already... ;)

[SGWilko]

Looking at it again, it still looks like a racing incident, maybe slightly in favour of Massa.

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc01.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc02.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc03.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc04.jpg

Honestly, putting 'Red Bull Gives You Wings' on the car was always tempting fate.........! :laugh:

NB If Kazuki can get a penalty for Malaysia.......................

[yodasarmpit]

Honestly, putting 'Red Bull Gives You Wings' on the car was always tempting fate.........! :laugh:

:D Awesome.

[Daniel]

Not everyone who doesn't think this incident was Coulthard's fault thinks that way either. And I've had enough of the conspiracy theory jokes for one season already... ;)

Wasn't a conspiracy theory ;) Was just pointing out how people treat things differently when it's another driver and car and also how the same situation can be resolved without a dangerous accident and 2 cars DNF'ing.

[BDunnell]

Wasn't a conspiracy theory ;) Was just pointing out how people treat things differently when it's another driver and car and also how the same situation can be resolved without a dangerous accident and 2 cars DNF'ing.

I genuinely don't think people treat things differently depending on what car it is. After all, people used to believe Ferrari got preferential, and I thought it was nonsense then, just as I do in relation to McLaren now. But I have a feeling we've been here before, and it serves no purpose for anyone to go over old ground once again.

And of course these situations can be resolved without two cars colliding and retiring, but each set of circumstances is different and there have always been these situations.

[ioan]

NB If Kazuki can get a penalty for Malaysia.......................

You're right again, DC should get one too. I'll send a mail with your request to Max! :D

[Daniel]

I genuinely don't think people treat things differently depending on what car it is. After all, people used to believe Ferrari got preferential, and I thought it was nonsense then, just as I do in relation to McLaren now. But I have a feeling we've been here before, and it serves no purpose for anyone to go over old ground once again.

And of course these situations can be resolved without two cars colliding and retiring, but each set of circumstances is different and there have always been these situations.

Oh come on you don't take me for a fool do you? ;) Commentators are a prime example of bias. Was watching the France v Wales Rugby game last night and as soon as the French started to lose the English commentator just started laying into the French in a rather obsessive manner while the Welsh guy just kept on commentating on what was happening on field. Everyone is biased (some more than others of course). We just don't realise it perhaps. Did you notice how the Formula 1 intro's on ITV only have Lewis and his McLaren? No Ferrari's, Kimi's, Alonso's, Renno's and so on, not even Jenson! Everyone has their favourites.

I don't necessarily think McLaren got preferential treatment last year but I do think in some cases Lewis got let off a bit more lightly than other drivers might have been purely because there was so much good press around him and you don't want to throw **** at your goodwill cashcow now do you? ;)

[wedge]

Very interesting range of opinions! That incident looks very similar to Adelaide 1994....

[BDunnell]

Oh come on you don't take me for a fool do you? ;) Commentators are a prime example of bias. Was watching the France v Wales Rugby game last night and as soon as the French started to lose the English commentator just started laying into the French in a rather obsessive manner while the Welsh guy just kept on commentating on what was happening on field. Everyone is biased (some more than others of course). We just don't realise it perhaps.

Or we think too much about it and let it annoy us. It's the same with accusations of political bias in BBC News reports on certain matters. I watch a lot of it and have never detected this alleged bias, yet quite a lot of people think its bias is absolutely appalling. And the fact that governments of different colours have both accused the BBC of political bias tells me that those accusations are baseless.

Likewise, many people accuse certain sports commentators of bias, and apart from some natural nationalistic tendencies in competitions between different nations (which are entirely unavoidable) I never get it myself. Listening to the vast majority of football commentaries as a neutral observer, I have never once detected the bias that some attribute to certain commentators. Those making the accusations are always far from neutral themselves.

In F1, James Allen was often criticised in some quarters for being too pro-Ferrari or Schumacher. I never noticed this, and always considered that his praise for both was entirely justified.


Did you notice how the Formula 1 intro's on ITV only have Lewis and his McLaren? No Ferrari's, Kimi's, Alonso's, Renno's and so on, not even Jenson! Everyone has their favourites.

I absolutely hate that.

[Daniel]

Or we think too much about it and let it annoy us. It's the same with accusations of political bias in BBC News reports on certain matters. I watch a lot of it and have never detected this alleged bias, yet quite a lot of people think its bias is absolutely appalling. And the fact that governments of different colours have both accused the BBC of political bias tells me that those accusations are baseless.

Likewise, many people accuse certain sports commentators of bias, and apart from some natural nationalistic tendencies in competitions between different nations (which are entirely unavoidable) I never get it myself. Listening to the vast majority of football commentaries as a neutral observer, I have never once detected the bias that some attribute to certain commentators. Those making the accusations are always far from neutral themselves.

In F1, James Allen was often criticised in some quarters for being too pro-Ferrari or Schumacher. I never noticed this, and always considered that his praise for both was entirely justified.

I absolutely hate that.

Thing is James Allen heaps endless amounts of praise on any drivers he likes. Sometimes I wish he'd tone it down a bit and just concentrate on commentating on what's going on :) Of course it's a commentators job to praise a driver who's doing well but I just feel he gets carried away with it a bit.

I think the BBC news reports are fairly OK but they do get a bit tabloideque at times. If someone from Labor loses a pen on a train it's "OMFG Labor is losing **** again!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We can't trust them with anything!" and the same goes for other parties. I guess when you're on the receiving end of that sort of treatment you mistake it for bias even if the same is dished out to others.

Worst commentary I've ever seen was the ITV Rugby commentary during the World Cup. But then again it's ITV so I shoudn't expect much :)

[BDunnell]

Thing is James Allen heaps endless amounts of praise on any drivers he likes. Sometimes I wish he'd tone it down a bit and just concentrate on commentating on what's going on :) Of course it's a commentators job to praise a driver who's doing well but I just feel he gets carried away with it a bit.

I do agree with that.



I think the BBC news reports are fairly OK but they do get a bit tabloideque at times. If someone from Labor loses a pen on a train it's "OMFG Labor is losing **** again!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We can't trust them with anything!" and the same goes for other parties. I guess when you're on the receiving end of that sort of treatment you mistake it for bias even if the same is dished out to others.

This is true. In this respect, they are only going with what the public seem to like, i.e. tabloid journalism.

[markabilly]

Looking at it again, it still looks like a racing incident, maybe slightly in favour of Massa.

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc01.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc02.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc03.jpg

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc04.jpg
great work But if you look from the side angle about a split second earlier, massa has got his front wheel even or slightly ahead, then clearly realizes that DC is going into him, so he slams one the brakes but DC catches him anyway

The bottom line should be and remain, if you can not close the door without a threat of contact to the side of a competitor, do not do it.

P/S--I was one of the very few who defended LH's pass on Kimi at monza back when it happenned, and still do. But there were folks then saying Kimi should have cut him off, closed the door. Well this is what you get if Kimi had done it.
If you want passing, this needs to stop.

[Daniel]

great work But if you look from the side angle about a split second earlier, massa has got his front wheel even or slightly ahead, then clearly realizes that DC is going into him, so he slams one the brakes but DC catches him anyway

The bottom line should be and remain, if you can not close the door without a threat of contact to the side of a competitor, do not do it.

P/S--I was one of the very few who defended LH's pass on Kimi at monza back when it happenned, and still do. But there were folks then saying Kimi should have cut him off, closed the door. Well this is what you get if Kimi had done it.
If you want passing, this needs to stop.
I stand corrected. It was Kimi not Massa who LH passed and then had minor contact with and then went over the chicane wasn't it?

I think most times if the driver being passed gives an overly ambitious driver who is passing them some room the other driver will trip up anyway. I think it would have been painfully obvious that LH wasn't going to make it through the chicane at Monza had he not got a tap.

[markabilly]

I stand corrected. It was Kimi not Massa who LH passed and then had minor contact with and then went over the chicane wasn't it?

I think most times if the driver being passed gives an overly ambitious driver who is passing them some room the other driver will trip up anyway. I think it would have been painfully obvious that LH wasn't going to make it through the chicane at Monza had he not got a tap.
That was the first lap you are thinking of, and you are correct. LH for that one was probably in the wrong .

But later towards the end of the Monza race, at the same corner, LH drafted Kimi and then made a move to the inside and took Kimi (and I do not believe there was contact, as kimi gave him room). Many did fuss about the "crazy" move, while others fussed because Kimi did not slam him or shut the door, but I thought it was a classic pass (and no different than what massa was doing)

[airshifter]

Both of them screwed it up.

Massa tried to dive in too deep and force DC to run wide. DC tried to shut the door and force Massa to brake harder. DC took the worst of the impact, and Massa got lucky.

At worst I consider it a racing incident.


Looking at this photo, I have to wonder how Massa would have hit the apex of the corner without DC being off the track regardless.

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc01.jpg

[wedge]

The bottom line should be and remain, if you can not close the door without a threat of contact to the side of a competitor, do not do it.

P/S--I was one of the very few who defended LH's pass on Kimi at monza back when it happenned, and still do. But there were folks then saying Kimi should have cut him off, closed the door. Well this is what you get if Kimi had done it.
If you want passing, this needs to stop.

When its a 50/50 situation, its like a game of dare. That's why Senna and Mansell clashed often, none of them wanted to lift and yield.

Oddly, at the start of the race Kimi overtook DC on the outside of T5, IIRC and DC blatantly lifted and let Kimi pass!

[Daniel]

That was the first lap you are thinking of, and you are correct. LH for that one was probably in the wrong .

But later towards the end of the Monza race, at the same corner, LH drafted Kimi and then made a move to the inside and took Kimi (and I do not believe there was contact, as kimi gave him room). Many did fuss about the "crazy" move, while others fussed because Kimi did not slam him or shut the door, but I thought it was a classic pass (and no different than what massa was doing)
Well I'm confused :p

Yep I remember that pass. Clean as anything :up: Just surprised Kimi really.

[markabilly]

Both of them screwed it up.

Massa tried to dive in too deep and force DC to run wide. DC tried to shut the door and force Massa to brake harder. DC took the worst of the impact, and Massa got lucky.

At worst I consider it a racing incident.


Looking at this photo, I have to wonder how Massa would have hit the apex of the corner without DC being off the track regardless.

http://www.yodasarmpit.com/pics/dc01.jpg
Simple at this point massa was now on the brakes, real hard, and as a result, DC was beginning to go faster than Massa due to the braking of massa

[markabilly]

When its a 50/50 situation, its like a game of dare. That's why Senna and Mansell clashed often, none of them wanted to lift and yield.

Oddly, at the start of the race Kimi overtook DC on the outside of T5, IIRC and DC blatantly lifted and let Kimi pass!

That is why i think that DC did not see him------a much better explanation than the other, (but still pretty poor) than just wanting to kick "blank" but probably don't sound as good and manly as "Blank" him.
OTOH, if he did see him, then shame on DC (and I only assume that he saw him because of the comments)

[Osella]

Whether Massa would have made the apex is really a moot point; it doesn't matter. Hitting the apex is not neccessarily the best way to get a pass made, making Coulthard run wide is...

The way I saw it, Massa came in fast, and would not have made the apex, but made the move early enough and with enough commitment that Coulthard should have seen it coming, or known it would (experienced driver...?) and left more room like Kovalainen did with Kimi and with Massa on lap 1.
Who knows, he may even have got the same result out of it.

Either way, if anyone, I blame Coulthard for this one..

[salmo]

I'm jumping in late here, so all the arguments have already been made. But simply being able to stick your nose inside of another car under braking does not give you the pass. You've got to have the pass made before the turn, which Massa did not do.

I've looked at the replay over and over, and at no point is Massa ever in front of Coulthard. He's never even, for that matter, although he comes close just before turn-in. From the head-on camera angle it's hard to tell, and looks like he might have the pass made, but if you look at the line on the pavement they cross just before turn-in, it's clear Massa never has that pass made.

The fact that Massa's front wheel hit Coulthard's sidepod and rear wheel confirms that Massa never had that pass made.

It was a reckless pass by Massa, compounded by a boneheaded refusal to yield the apex by DC that resulted in the subsequent mayhem. A smarter driver would have stayed wide and repassed Massa on the next turn. Either one of the two could have prevented the accident, but despite what the announcers were saying and the apparent majority opinion here, the first reckless move was Massa's.

[ioan]

The fact that Massa's front wheel hit Coulthard's sidepod and rear wheel confirms that Massa never had that pass made.


It just meand that Massa reacted in the right way as he tried to brake hard when he realized that Blockhead was going to take them both of.

Anyway, in one years time this will not happen again (like it happened last year with Wurz) because DC will be long gone from F1.

[jens]

I'm inclined to think that this collision was more DC's fault. If you look at the cars positioning before or at the start of the braking area, then Felipe was almost alongside DC. Felipe started breaking earlier in order to avoid contact and went almost onto the grass, but DC did nothing to leave more room. Thanks to later braking DC (he was on the racing line with better grip) seems in front by half a car in the apex of the corner. That's why it has created (IMO a false) impression to some that he was clearly ahead and FM simply rammed him.

[WSRfan82]

racing incident DC chillout bud

[ioan]

I'm inclined to think that this collision was more DC's fault. If you look at the cars positioning before or at the start of the braking area, then Felipe was almost alongside DC. Felipe started breaking earlier in order to avoid contact and went almost onto the grass, but DC did nothing to leave more room. Thanks to later braking DC (he was on the racing line with better grip) seems in front by half a car in the apex of the corner. That's why it has created (IMO a false) impression to some that he was clearly ahead and FM simply rammed him.

Very fair description of what happened.
However the false impression some have is rather created by their personal preferences than by the images they saw. ;)

[BDunnell]

Simple at this point massa was now on the brakes, real hard, and as a result, DC was beginning to go faster than Massa due to the braking of massa

Exactly, which is why I don't see why Coulthard should take the blame. As I said earlier, without much of a braking zone for that corner, a pass like Massa's involving darting up the inside is always going to be a gamble without getting alongside down the straight.

[BDunnell]

Oddly, at the start of the race Kimi overtook DC on the outside of T5, IIRC and DC blatantly lifted and let Kimi pass!

Was that not at turn one, and did Coulthard not try to stick it out round the outside? His nose certainly reappeared at one point in the on-board shot I saw, before he realised that he had to give way.

[MAX_THRUST]

1 out of 10 for crashing,

10 out of 10 for speaking his mind!!!!

Racing incident I think, DC left the door open, Massa looked inside and they crashed. DC shouldn t leave doors open and Massa like any driver went for it.

Great race!!!!

[Robinho]

if Massa was suposedley on the brakes hard and DC had lifted off for the corner they never would have touched, the speed differential would have become massive.

having seen the shots and the replays i maintain that massa was never in front, and therefore the corner was not his. had DC employed sense, or seen him, he could have allowed him just enough room to ride half over the grass on the insde and cleanly kept his place, but that was the part that was DC's fault. having said that, if DC had gone in wide its quite possible that MAssa would have slid wide and hit DC anyway, the speed he seeme to be trying to carry into the corner.

i maintain that both drivers were at fault, but that Massa has the onus to make the pass and that DC should simply have to dive out of the way. it wasn't a great attempt by massa and it was a harsh block from DC. no penalty required as i don't think it would be possible to say that it was all one drivers fault in this case

[Daniel]

if Massa was suposedley on the brakes hard and DC had lifted off for the corner they never would have touched, the speed differential would have become massive.

having seen the shots and the replays i maintain that massa was never in front, and therefore the corner was not his. had DC employed sense, or seen him, he could have allowed him just enough room to ride half over the grass on the insde and cleanly kept his place, but that was the part that was DC's fault. having said that, if DC had gone in wide its quite possible that MAssa would have slid wide and hit DC anyway, the speed he seeme to be trying to carry into the corner.

DC moved ACROSS Massa. That's what caused the accident regardless of whether you're braking and the other guy is accelerating if you move over onto him there's going to be a coming together.

If Massa had gone onto the grass they would have had a coming together but just a few seconds later.

[SGWilko]

DC moved ACROSS Massa.

Of course, DC could just have been taking the corner....

[Daniel]

Of course, DC could just have been taking the corner....

Or he could have just been trying to take Massa out of the race :)

[salmo]

DC moved ACROSS Massa.
Yes, he did, because he was on the racing line. The car in front is not obligated to go off-line whenever a would-be passer tucks a wheel on the inside, unless the passer has managed to get in front. Of course, in this case, it would have been wise for DC to do so. It is quite possible for two drivers to make stupid mistakes in the same incident, which is what happened here.

[aryan]

Of course, DC could just have been taking the corner....

You know, Brundel is DC's manager and even he thought it was DC's fault.

I LOVE David Coulthard, I am one of his greatest fans, and I wish him 5 more successful years in F1, but this accident was not Massa's fault. Massa had the racing line, DC had left the door open, Massa took it. He was close, it was not an ambitious move. DC didn't give him any room. classic racing accident.

[Daniel]

Yes, he did, because he was on the racing line. The car in front is not obligated to go off-line whenever a would-be passer tucks a wheel on the inside, unless the passer has managed to get in front. Of course, in this case, it would have been wise for DC to do so. It is quite possible for two drivers to make stupid mistakes in the same incident, which is what happened here.

So what you're saying is that for a pass to be a pass the driver has to almost get AROUND the other driver and be in front before the corner. That simply is not possible 99% of the time in F1. A lot of overtaking maneuvers in F1 are simply when one driver pushes another offline and slows them down and then overtakes the other driver. Massa had made a good move and had about 70% or so of his car alongside DC's. If DC wanted to defend he should have done it before the corner. DC thinking that apologising for being a bonehead last year and taking Wurz out gave him the moral high ground or something. He was very much wrong.

[salmo]

So what you're saying is that for a pass to be a pass the driver has to almost get AROUND the other driver and be in front before the corner.
No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the driver has to have a nose in front, or least be even, to make it stick. Otherwise anyone could poke a front wing inside someone's rear wheels and claim that the corner was theirs. Massa's move was close to being complete, but close is not the same as complete. He was hoping that DC would leave him room; a good pass leaves the other driver no choice.

He was very much wrong.
I actually agree with you on this. DC was very wrong, and had no business making his little tirade. I simply say that both drivers were at fault.

[Bagwan]

Two drivers approached a corner .
The driver ahead knew an attempt to pass was a possibility , and made no move to prevent such move .
The move came , with the driver behind , up the inside .

Two such scenarios occurred , one where DC , moving quicker due to a wider arc , decided to close the door with Massa already in it , and the other , with Kimi sliding through , and Heiki punking him badly .

Massa knew he was in early enough for DC to have seen him , and , as such , owned the corner .
DC's reaction seems to have been to take no notice of Massa's move , and drive the corner as he would like , when he could clearly see a car beside him .
If the action was meant to intimidate him out of the move , it was way too late , as the move was almost complete .
If the action was meant to squeeze him tighter , it also defies logic , as doing that puts him on the grass with no grip , inside , where he is likely to slide directly into you .


Heiki , on the other hand , left the door open , and used the scenario perfectly to punk a WDC into the gravel trap .
He , had Kimi stayed on track , had it sorted , as he reacted early to the move , by braking harder on the outside , rubbered groove , and would have beaten him out of the corner easily down the inside , after he had slid through .

One move was racecraft and the other was just stupid .

DC will never be WDC , just DC .
Heiki , on the other hand.....

[ioan]

Massa's move was close to being complete, but close is not the same as complete.

How the fuk could he complete the move when the moron turned into him to stop him go by?! F1 cars have wings but can't fly on their own!

To make it simple to understand I'll give you a simple example. You have to go through a door to win a prize. If I can stop you I win it. I have the right to open and close the door when and how I like it, but without touching you.
So I open the door and let it open, you manage to be almost through it when I decide to close it and I violently shut it braking your hands and legs. Than I'll say it's your fault because you should have known that I'll close it if you try to go through, and on top of that I'll call you some names.


He was hoping that DC would leave him room; a good pass leaves the other driver no choice.

And he was right to hope that the other driver won't crash into him. I hope the same thing every time I'm on the road.
Not to mention that Massa braked and went as far to the right as possible to avoid the contact. DC did nothing in this respect, NOTHING!

[trumperZ06]

;) Damn... Massa messed up DC's chances once again.

Hhmmm... Massa was in the proper position,

taking the inside line into corner entry.

:rolleyes: DC could have waited, taking a late apex and probably re-passed Massa on corner exit.

Remember, Massa was "over-cooking" the corner (early apex), and without the aid of traction control, he would have to brake hard... loosening the rear, as he would be trying to rotate the car to make the turn.

:dozey: And I'm sure DC thought... This was going to be His Year !!!

[ioan]

:rolleyes: And I'm sure DC thought... This was going to be His Year !!!

:rotflmao:

[jens]

:dozey: And I'm sure DC thought... This was going to be His Year !!!

Nah, 17 races still to go. Nothing is lost yet. ;)

[Zico]

Im with Salmo on this. I think Massas move was a bit optimistic.. reminded me of Schumacher where he'd bully... commit to a move forcing the driver in front to yield or wipe them both out.. David was having none of it and closed the door probably not knowing exactly where Massa was due to his blind spot despite staing the opposite. I like DC but I think his comments were totally unnecesary and uncalled for, obviously made in the heat of the moment, I think he needs to have another look at it though.
And to those who say that Massa was on the racing line.. absolute nonsense.. He dived up the inside.. a clear overtaking line... go watch it again.

A racing incident for me.. hope they both learn from it.

[BDunnell]

Yes, he did, because he was on the racing line. The car in front is not obligated to go off-line whenever a would-be passer tucks a wheel on the inside, unless the passer has managed to get in front. Of course, in this case, it would have been wise for DC to do so. It is quite possible for two drivers to make stupid mistakes in the same incident, which is what happened here.

:up:

[Zico]

How the fuk could he complete the move when the moron turned into him to stop him go by?! F1 cars have wings but can't fly on their own!

Imo Salmo is 100% correct with his take on the incident.. both drivers could be accused of being at fault, and Im sure most neutrals agree with that point of view. Take off your Ferrari tinted spectacles for a minute or think about what other swear words you would be using if it happened the other way around...

[Valve Bounce]

DC moved ACROSS Massa. That's what caused the accident regardless of whether you're braking and the other guy is accelerating if you move over onto him there's going to be a coming together.

If Massa had gone onto the grass they would have had a coming together but just a few seconds later.

OK, Daniel! you're a tech guy, and I have been dying to ask this question for ages. Is it possible to deploy a camera type rear vision system behind the cockpit which would give a panoramic rear vision instead of the current rear view mirrors?

For a start, the monitor would be mounted directly in front of the driver - he won't have to look sideways to see who is behind. And secondly, there must be improvement in aero without the two mirrors sticking out into the air stream.

Over to you, Daniel.

[Daniel]

OK, Daniel! you're a tech guy, and I have been dying to ask this question for ages. Is it possible to deploy a camera type rear vision system behind the cockpit which would give a panoramic rear vision instead of the current rear view mirrors?

For a start, the monitor would be mounted directly in front of the driver - he won't have to look sideways to see who is behind. And secondly, there must be improvement in aero without the two mirrors sticking out into the air stream.

Over to you, Daniel.
It's been done before in road cars with limited rearwards visibility. But I don't think there's space for a screen in the cockpit or time for the driver to be looking ;)

[Valve Bounce]

And to those who say that Massa was on the racing line.. absolute nonsense.. He dived up the inside.. a clear overtaking line... go watch it again.

A racing incident for me.. hope they both learn from it.

Hey!! does anyone have a link to this, especially an overhead shot? I didn't tape it as I watched it live.

[Valve Bounce]

It's been done before in road cars with limited rearwards visibility. But I don't think there's space for a screen in the cockpit or time for the driver to be looking ;)

Just a thought! But there would be more time looking directly in front than in both mirrors as the driver enters a corner.

[Hawkmoon]

The the problem I have with the incident is that DC quite clearly said he saw Massa when interviewed by Goodman. That means he deliberately turned in knowing the Ferrari was on his inside and would have had to almost stop to avoid a collision.

It was a racing incident but I think it was quite clearly one that DC could have avoided. Massa on the other hand committed himself to the move long before the corner, quite legitimately too, in my opinion.

[Zico]

Just a thought! But there would be more time looking directly in front than in both mirrors as the driver enters a corner.

Yeah, I think so too.. but I know how hard it is to see an LCD screen in sunlight and where could they mount it?, unless they could develop a very bright, high contrast and high definition LCD screen that works at the touch of a button that could function as well as an actual mirror in bright sunlight.

Great idea from a safety perspective as well as aero..

[markabilly]

Two drivers approached a corner .
The driver ahead knew an attempt to pass was a possibility , and made no move to prevent such move .
The move came , with the driver behind , up the inside .

Two such scenarios occurred , one where DC , moving quicker due to a wider arc , decided to close the door with Massa already in it , and the other , with Kimi sliding through , and Heiki punking him badly .

Massa knew he was in early enough for DC to have seen him , and , as such , owned the corner .
DC's reaction seems to have been to take no notice of Massa's move , and drive the corner as he would like , when he could clearly see a car beside him .
If the action was meant to intimidate him out of the move , it was way too late , as the move was almost complete .
If the action was meant to squeeze him tighter , it also defies logic , as doing that puts him on the grass with no grip , inside , where he is likely to slide directly into you .


Heiki , on the other hand , left the door open , and used the scenario perfectly to punk a WDC into the gravel trap .
He , had Kimi stayed on track , had it sorted , as he reacted early to the move , by braking harder on the outside , rubbered groove , and would have beaten him out of the corner easily down the inside , after he had slid through .

One move was racecraft and the other was just stupid .

DC will never be WDC , just DC .
Heiki , on the other hand.....


How the fuk could he complete the move when the moron turned into him to stop him go by?! F1 cars have wings but can't fly on their own!

To make it simple to understand I'll give you a simple example. You have to go through a door to win a prize. If I can stop you I win it. I have the right to open and close the door when and how I like it, but without touching you.
So I open the door and let it open, you manage to be almost through it when I decide to close it and I violently shut it braking your hands and legs. Than I'll say it's your fault because you should have known that I'll close it if you try to go through, and on top of that I'll call you some names.



And he was right to hope that the other driver won't crash into him. I hope the same thing every time I'm on the road.
Not to mention that Massa braked and went as far to the right as possible to avoid the contact. DC did nothing in this respect, NOTHING!
Pretty much sums it up. This whole idea that unless you are way in front, you have no right to be there is nonsense and acts to encourage this late door slamming.
Blunt truth, if you want passing then the rule will need to be that a car is passed when the car to the inside is clearly in the way of a door slam.

HK did to Kimi what Kimi did with Hamilton at Monza, except LH did no go off.

[millencolin]

just a quick question...

How many shades of sh!t was dc going to kick through massa? was it 3 or 7?

[SteveA]

It was 3 (colours, not shades)

[SGWilko]

Yeah, I think so too.. but I know how hard it is to see an LCD screen in sunlight and where could they mount it?, unless they could develop a very bright, high contrast and high definition LCD screen that works at the touch of a button that could function as well as an actual mirror in bright sunlight.

Great idea from a safety perspective as well as aero..

Didn't Alonso say he saw Ron Dennis raise his fist on a big screen? If you mount a big screen ahead of troublesome corners, the drivers can glance at that momentarily......

[millencolin]

It was 3 (colours, not shades)

aaaah it was too, cheers for the correction. in the shock of it all you tend to mishear things... still, a great comment!

[Ranger]

After hearing it again on youtube, the comment was said in jest.

He may have been wrong, but who cares! Most people these days complain about the monotony of formula 1 personalities but then they complain when something politically incorrect is finally said. :s hock:

As for the accident, racing incident.

[ioan]

just a quick question...

How many shades of sh!t was dc going to kick through massa? was it 3 or 7?

None! He's to old to be able to kick anything through anything!

[SGWilko]

None! He's to old to be able to kick anything through anything!

Ah, yes, but if DC were to give him a Glasgow Kiss, with those sharp edges (Sponge Bob I think is your condescending and derogatory name of choice) he'd have his eye out.... :laugh:

[ioan]

Ah, yes, but if DC were to give him a Glasgow Kiss, with those sharp edges (Sponge Bob I think is your condescending and derogatory name of choice) he'd have his eye out.... :laugh:

You should know by now that even if a sponge might look sharp it isn't hard enough!

PS: It would still be a better use of DC's head than how he is doing now! :p :

[Dave B]

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/2008/03/17/coulthard-goes-shopping/
:D

[SGWilko]

http://www.sniffpetrol.com/2008/03/17/coulthard-goes-shopping/
:D

Most risible! :laugh:

[Knock-on]

So, what are the 3 different colours?

Of course, you have standard brown and sometimes, after too many beers and dodgy food, it can be lighter.

Is the 3rd shade white as in dog turds left in the sun too long or the really black, squiggly ones I had this morning after the Guinness last night.

I'm confused :confused:

BTW, Massa looked a bit too optimistic and DC didn't appreciate he was coming up. 51% Massa 49% DC. Racing incident.

[SGWilko]

So, what are the 3 different colours?

Of course, you have standard brown and sometimes, after too many beers and dodgy food, it can be lighter. Standard brown - surely you mean British Leyland interior brown?


Is the 3rd shade white as in dog turds left in the sun too long or the really black, squiggly ones I had this morning after the Guinness last night.

Not seen white doggy doo in yonks. And the last part of that above contains WAY too much info! :laugh:

[Knock-on]

Standard brown - surely you mean British Leyland interior brown?



Not seen white doggy doo in yonks. And the last part of that above contains WAY too much info! :laugh:

Where has all the white dog poo gone?

It's a conspiracy. Nigel Stepney collected them all, ground them up and sprinkled them around the Ferrari :)

[THE_LIBERATOR]

I have never noticed him being anything other than utterly fair in his comments about Coulthard, and the same was true today.I think you need to pay more attention.

[W8&C]

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/sport/formel_1/hxcms_article_510960_13987.hbs


q: Wie haben Sie Massas Rempler gegen Coulthard gesehen?

a: Schumacher: Das ging schon eher auf Felipes Kappe. Auf der anderen Seite möchte ich behaupten, dass David schon ein bisschen cleverer hätte mitfahren können. Er hätte die Chance gehabt, der Sache aus dem Weg zu gehen. Es ist aber keine Frage, dass Felipe der Verursacher war.

A rough (very rough) translation:

q: How do you classify Massa justling Coulthard“

a: Schumacher: At the end its been Felipes fault. On the other hand I wanna state that David could have handled the situation more clever. He could have avoided the accident. But no question that Felipe caused it.

[BDunnell]

I think you need to pay more attention.

I disagree. I pay a hell of a lot of attention to sports commentators in general, in fact, as I have a semi-professional interest in the subject. Read the rest of my post and you'll see why I'm always suspicious of accusations of bias against broadcasters.

[PSfan]

I said it before in the chat room, I'll say it again

God Bless David Coulthard...

He's got what I thought was a respectable F1 forum discussing the colours of poo...

Or, and I believe "white" dog poo is just old and been dried up in the sun for days/weeks/months...

However I have seen some greenish poo while changine a few diapers... I'm sure I've seen other colours, but have purged those memories completely out of the brain... :p :

Also wanted to mention how dissapointed I was that TSN managed to "censor" out "s$!t" during their re-run of the race, and also changed the "b" word into "bugger" on their web site.... :)

[curry]

Reminds me of many years ago in Spa when DC was crusing with damage in torrental rain only problem being that he was doing this on the racing line. Unfortunately Schui didn't smack the crap out of him when he had the chance!!

[Ari]

This is what DC himself says about that incident: "I screwed up last year when I tried a speculative move on Alex, but I took full responsibility for it."

In this case, according to Massa, "I was on the inside, I did nothing wrong." Launching the Red Bull by hitting its rear wheel with the Ferrari's front suggests it wasn't quite "nothing". The mere fact of being on the inside does not make him blameless, although DC should have given Massa more racing room. Something to do with the cockpit protection restricting his vision perhaps?

I know I'm very late into this thread but will voice none the less. Massa was next to DC when it all happend. When Massa got behind him it was after it all went to hell and Massa was on the grass. It was AFTER DC had turned in.... by then Massa was likely on the brakes knowing all hell was about to break loose.

I'll stop talking because a picture tells a thousand words.

http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2348/dcmassabv0.jpg

[PSfan]

And moving right along... am I the only one who finds it amusing that DC is now commenting on how useless the mirrors are on F1 cars are these days... :p :


Maybe he should be kicking 3 colours of Poo-Poo out of Newey instead...

[Ari]

Maybe he should be kicking 3 colours of Poo-Poo out of Newey instead...

Tend to agree! With the number of fins and pods on the side of that RB4 I'm surprised they even bothered to put mirrors on. I guess it's for the sake of scrutineering... about it!

[THE_LIBERATOR]

I disagree. I pay a hell of a lot of attention to sports commentators in general, in fact, as I have a semi-professional interest in the subject. Read the rest of my post and you'll see why I'm always suspicious of accusations of bias against broadcasters.As always he hesitated in apportioning any blame to David. Watch it back & listen to his choice of words directly after the incident. As far as choice of words go, I have a fully professional interest.

Time & again we have heard that the teams watch the ITV F1 coverage post race. & About how influential the choice of "Driver Of The Day" can be. I think that's unfair influence for a manager, having the ear of the pitlane in that way. Also I suspect if he says anything too negative about Coulthard, he will get 3 shades brown knocked out of him
;)

May I reiterate my Brundle love however.

[wmcot]

racing incident DC chillout bud

Exactly! But perhaps DC should review last year's footage of his "pass" on Wurz! You didn't see Wurz saying he wanted to, "kick the [blank] out of the little [blank]." It would have been justified since that wasn't even close to a decent passing attempt!

DC - take a look in the mirror before opening the mouth!

[PSfan]

Exactly! But perhaps DC should review last year's footage of his "pass" on Wurz! You didn't see Wurz saying he wanted to, "kick the [blank] out of the little [blank]." It would have been justified since that wasn't even close to a decent passing attempt!

DC - take a look in the mirror before opening the mouth!

Anybody who is referencing the 2007 Aussie GP to suggest that DC is being a hypocrit obviously didn't hear the full interview that gave us such a colorfull quote. basically DC said that last year he took resposibility for his crash with Wurz and was man enough to go apologize to Wurz for it. IF Massa didn't step up and apologize for this one then... well you know the rest. DC know's he F'd up last year, reminding us doesn't really add anything now does it?

[janneppi]

Oddly enough, apparently according to Auto Motor und Sport, some former german driver called M Schumacher thinks Massa was to blame but that DC too should have been more careful. the man is obiously lost all grip with reality. ;)

[Knock-on]

Oddly enough, apparently according to Auto Motor und Sport, some former german driver called M Schumacher thinks Massa was to blame but that DC too should have been more careful. the man is obiously lost all grip with reality. ;)

I'd agree with that.

The pictures on this thread are from the wrong angle to apportion blame but it was Massa sticking his nose in that was the cause. He had no way to pull off the pass and was giving the option to DC to move off the line he was entitled to take or have a collission. That is not giving DC "racing room" but then again, DC should have been more aware.

It was a racing incident but Massa was in the wrong.

[Daniel]

Anybody who is referencing the 2007 Aussie GP to suggest that DC is being a hypocrit obviously didn't hear the full interview that gave us such a colorfull quote. basically DC said that last year he took resposibility for his crash with Wurz and was man enough to go apologize to Wurz for it. IF Massa didn't step up and apologize for this one then... well you know the rest. DC know's he F'd up last year, reminding us doesn't really add anything now does it?

So saying it was his fault makes it OK? :mark:

At the end of the day what happened on Saturday was a racing incident and you could argue that either of the drivers is at fault. But what happened last year was a diabolical piece of driving from someone who should know better!

[BDunnell]

As always he hesitated in apportioning any blame to David. Watch it back & listen to his choice of words directly after the incident. As far as choice of words go, I have a fully professional interest.

Not 'as always' at all, in my opinion. Until genuine evidence of bias on the part of a sports commentator is presented, I am extremely wary of accusing them of it. There are some sports commentators whose conflicts of interest have, to me, caused a problem with their role. Brundle isn't one of them.

[THE_LIBERATOR]

Not 'as always' at all, in my opinion. Until genuine evidence of bias on the part of a sports commentator is presented, I am extremely wary of accusing them of it. There are some sports commentators whose conflicts of interest have, to me, caused a problem with their role. Brundle isn't one of them.Well it could be academic anyway depending on the BBC get for next year.

[PSfan]

So saying it was his fault makes it OK? :mark:

No, I am saying its inapplicable in this discussion

I'll rephrase so maybe you'll understand what I'm trying to say

Anybody saying that DC should look in the mirror as it reflects to the 07 race seems missed the fact that DC had claimed to have looked in the mirror prior to making that statement...


At the end of the day what happened on Saturday was a racing incident and you could argue that either of the drivers is at fault.

To this I agree, as I still tend to waver on who was "more to blame" for this accident. However, I can agree with DC that if Massa wants to contend for the championship, he should not be putting that in risk by trying high risk passes on clearly slower cars. I however being a race fan, can still applaud Massa for trying...


But what happened last year was a diabolical piece of driving from someone who should know better!

As last years DC/Wurz accident has little relavence to this years DC/Massa tangle, if you wish to discuss it, perhap digging up last years thread would be more appropriate

[wmcot]

No, I am saying its inapplicable in this discussion

As last years DC/Wurz accident has little relavence to this years DC/Massa tangle, if you wish to discuss it, perhap digging up last years thread would be more appropriate

Except that as a racing move it was a far worse attempt to overtake than that of Massa! In that sense it is relevant. Bit of the pot calling the kettle black!

A mouthed apology does not mean nothing ever happened. Wurz could have been killed in that one - "Sorry" doesn't always make everything go away.

[janneppi]

Except that as a racing move it was a far worse attempt to overtake than that of Massa! In that sense it is relevant. Bit of the pot calling the kettle black!

A mouthed apology does not mean nothing ever happened. Wurz could have been killed in that one - "Sorry" doesn't always make everything go away.
So what you're saying if a driver makes a mistake he shouldn't be allowed to say other have made a similar mistake?

[ioan]

So what you're saying if a driver makes a mistake he shouldn't be allowed to say other have made a similar mistake?

He certainly shouldn't call them names, when he is worse than the others are.

[janneppi]

I always thought DC's comments were made somewhat in jest, especially the tone of it and have been blown out of proportion during this discussion.

[markabilly]

I always thought DC's comments were made somewhat in jest, especially the tone of it and have been blown out of proportion during this discussion.
You mean F1 is now following the road of pro werstlin and nastycar???certainly might jack up TV revenue...... :rolleyes:

[BDunnell]

He certainly shouldn't call them names, when he is worse than the others are.

I seem to recall a fair bit of name-calling on here in recent times, which passed without objection from certain quarters.

[BDunnell]

I always thought DC's comments were made somewhat in jest, especially the tone of it and have been blown out of proportion during this discussion.

:up:

Me too. I don't think it was a serious threat. And I note again that some individuals who have moaned in the past about there being too much 'political correctness' are pretending to be offended by what he said.

[ioan]

I seem to recall a fair bit of name-calling on here in recent times, which passed without objection from certain quarters.

I certainly didn't see any forum member calling another one names on a public TV with millions of viewers.

[BDunnell]

I certainly didn't see any forum member calling another one names on a public TV with millions of viewers.

Far worse things get said on TV, and an apology was made to anyone who might have been offended, so I don't see why it needs to be blown up out of all proportion.

[wmcot]

So what you're saying if a driver makes a mistake he shouldn't be allowed to say other have made a similar mistake?

It depends on if he's "saying" it or threatening to kick his [blank]. There is a difference.

[markabilly]

The latest comments of DC about the incident:

"Felipe is not racing me for the World Championship so he can do the same manoeuvre for the next 17 Grands Prix and it will be the same result because, quite clearly, my eyes point forward, not backwards," said the Scot.

"He's got a much clearer view as to how much space there is and I didn't take a different line to any other lap.
"I was fully prepared for him to pass me at turn three because the Ferrari is a much quicker car.
"He made his choice and if he makes the same choice again, he'll get the same result. "I can't make my car invisible but I'm not fighting for the World Championship, he is, so next time he should wait."


Pretty much says it all, I guess I could add that maybe he has been drinking his own special brand of Kool aid, cause ole markabilly's will make yyou see things out of the back of your head...... :beer: :angel:

[ioan]

The latest comments of DC about the incident:

"Felipe is not racing me for the World Championship so he can do the same manoeuvre for the next 17 Grands Prix and it will be the same result because, quite clearly, my eyes point forward, not backwards," said the Scot.

"He's got a much clearer view as to how much space there is and I didn't take a different line to any other lap.
"I was fully prepared for him to pass me at turn three because the Ferrari is a much quicker car.
"He made his choice and if he makes the same choice again, he'll get the same result. "I can't make my car invisible but I'm not fighting for the World Championship, he is, so next time he should wait."


Pretty much says it all, I guess I could add that maybe he has been drinking his own special brand of Kool aid, cause ole markabilly's will make yyou see things out of the back of your head...... :beer: :angel:

He's past it, and it hurts him a lot.
This will be his year, his last one! ;)

[Daniel]

DC = Jackass. No two ways about it. Wait until someone gets killed and then we'll see how he feels. You can't keep on having those sorts of crashes and hoping someone isn't going to get decapitated at some point. Safety first racing second.

[markabilly]

Actually, after Wilko said so, I sort of thought the original comments might have had a bit of the jester-joke quality, but the latest outburst while at Thursday press conference, strike me as grounds to assume the next bump from Spongebob, should be considered premeditated, esp. if the recepeint is battling for the wdc (which he says he is not, so why is he there?)

[wmcot]

I just re-watched the race and paused the DC-FM incident and advanced frame-by-frame. Massa was almost directly alongside DC just before the incident. He seems to have braked a fraction earlier which let DC pull half a length ahead. I can't believe that DC did not see Massa alongside OR in the mirror! Perhaps he is developing tunnel vision or cataracts?

[ArrowsFA1]

I can't believe that DC did not see Massa alongside OR in the mirror! Perhaps he is developing tunnel vision or cataracts?
This is what Trulli had to say about his first corner incident in Malaysia:

I didn't see Nick Heidfeld on the outside of me at all because, actually, with the higher head protection it is harder to see cars at the side.
DC has said he fully expected Massa to overtake him at the next corner, so having checked his mirrors shortly before turn #1 he probably felt Massa was not in a position to make a pass there. Therefore, DC took his line into turn one and could not see Massa at all when he came alongside.

I think that would explain DC's comments - because he simply did not expect the move at turn #1, so to be clouted unexpectedly must have ****** him off a little! That may have come across in an interview soon after he had walked back to the paddock :)

[markabilly]

I think that would explain DC's comments - because he simply did not expect the move at turn #1, so to be clouted unexpectedly must have ****** him off a little! That may have come across in an interview soon after he had walked back to the paddock :)


Well perhaps, as Wiklo said, they might have been joking or just the moment.......the later comments at the thursday press conference, I do think are a bit more "uncalled for" and certainly were not joking

And people wonder why there is no passing in F1 ........

[Tazio]

And people wonder why there is no passing in F1 ........
I wonder if he would notice if a wdc contender in his rear view mirror was "packing heat" :D :D

[markabilly]

I wonder if he would notice if a wdc contender in his rear view mirror was "packing heat" :D :D
I think it would not matter as he said his eyes point forward, not backwards :D

[wmcot]

I think it would not matter as he said his eyes point forward, not backwards :D

Maybe he should have his peripheral vision tested just to be safe! (Or install bigger mirrors?)

[ArrowsFA1]

Maybe he should have his peripheral vision tested just to be safe! (Or install bigger mirrors?)
Just read what Jarno Trulli had to say again. The higher head protection, introduced as a result of the DC/Wurz incident in Australia last year, may make this kind of incident more likely simply because it restricts the drivers' peripheral vision.

[ioan]

Just read what Jarno Trulli had to say again. The higher head protection, introduced as a result of the DC/Wurz incident in Australia last year, may make this kind of incident more likely simply because it restricts the drivers' peripheral vision.

Well, given that it is DC's fault that those head protections were introduced, I say that he is still the one 2 blame, twice! :p :

[wmcot]

Just read what Jarno Trulli had to say again. The higher head protection, introduced as a result of the DC/Wurz incident in Australia last year, may make this kind of incident more likely simply because it restricts the drivers' peripheral vision.

All the more reason to check your mirrors!

[Tazio]

Regardless of what Sponge Bob, Rocky The Flying Brazilian Squirrel,
or anyone else says, threatens, or prognosticates.
It is at the bottom "a racing incident"

[jens]

All the more reason to check your mirrors!

From certain angles it's not possible to see the other car in the mirrors, especially when it's alongside.

[ioan]

From certain angles it's not possible to see the other car in the mirrors, especially when it's alongside.

When it's alongside you see it directly, no need for mirrors. :p :

[ArrowsFA1]

When it's alongside you see it directly, no need for mirrors. :p :
Jarno Trulli: "I didn't see Nick Heidfeld on the outside of me at all because, actually, with the higher head protection it is harder to see cars at the side."

[ioan]

Jarno Trulli: "I didn't see Nick Heidfeld on the outside of me at all because, actually, with the higher head protection it is harder to see cars at the side."

He did find a better excuse, he should check his mirror better next time. As for not seeing someone on your left and at least as high as you are it's probably because he was looking to the right!

[jens]

He did find a better excuse, he should check his mirror better next time. As for not seeing someone on your left and at least as high as you are it's probably because he was looking to the right!

Of course he was looking right, because the corner turned to right. :laugh:

As for checking mirrors, then it has already been said before - you can't see a car in the mirrors, when it's alongside.

Actually I guess the higher head protection will cause some more problems this season. It seems quite obvious that it interferes the field of view. Solution? We'll see.

[ioan]

As for checking mirrors, then it has already been said before - you can't see a car in the mirrors, when it's alongside.

That's not true. Any driver can see his rear wheels in the mirrors. Not seeing a car you are banging wheels with is impossible.

[jens]

That's not true. Any driver can see his rear wheels in the mirrors. Not seeing a car you are banging wheels with is impossible.

As FOM does its best to prohibit F1 videos on Youtube, then it's become harder to find a replay, but...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIVFiGrwSbI&feature=related

In Trulli's case I think it's not even that much about mirrors or seeing a car alongside, but he had to try to avoid contact with Kubica, who was on the inside, and therefore ran wide. I think Trulli's attention was indeed more on Kubica rather than Heidfeld and the German was an innocent victim there, but... you know, tough luck.

[ioan]

As FOM does its best to prohibit F1 videos on Youtube, then it's become harder to find a replay, but...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIVFiGrwSbI&feature=related

In Trulli's case I think it's not even that much about mirrors or seeing a car alongside, but he had to try to avoid contact with Kubica, who was on the inside, and therefore ran wide. I think Trulli's attention was indeed more on Kubica rather than Heidfeld and the German was an innocent victim there, but... you know, tough luck.

I completely agree with you on how the things happened, and that's why I find it bizarre that Jarno talks about not seeing the cars because of the higher head protections, as he didn't even looked until they made contact.

[wmcot]

Actually I guess the higher head protection will cause some more problems this season. It seems quite obvious that it interferes the field of view.

...And provides a handy excuse for bad driving!

[Tazio]

Actually I guess the higher head protection will cause some more problems this season. It seems quite obvious that it interferes the field of view. Solution? We'll see. Like many things involving driving rule modifications.
They seem to always be reactive. Would the point tally this season be different
right now if Wurz didn't come so close to decapitation last season?
Now the mess with the Q3 hot lap Vs super slow in lap.
It's… well …a mess!