Timed Races & Standing Starts

[philipbain]

In some ways i'm saddened by the demise of Champ Car, though like most people I think just having one series is the only way that open wheel racing has a chance of survival in the states, I think on the sporting side Champ Car made some excellent decisions towards the end of it's life that differentiated it from other categories.

Timed Races - A unique approach to deal with limited TV air time had an excellent effect on strategy and the unpredictability of races, it was often the case that getting "off sequence" became a distinct advantage come the end of the race when the time ticked down. It also ensured that you got a full 2 hours of entertainment. Its a great idea and one that Indycar may ought to consider for road races in particular.

Standing Starts - There is nothing like the tension on a standing start, waiting for the lights to go out, hearing the revs rise and seeing plumes of tyre smoke as the driver feverishly scramble off the line. It also improves safety as the cars are invaribaly going at a lower speed come the first corner when compared with a rolling start. The World Touring Car Championship is a great example of the virtues of a standing start as in thier 2 race format they do both, 1 rolling, 1 standing, and the standing start invariably sees far fewer crashes come the first corner. Obviously this one is the road courses only.

Can anyone else think of positive sporting aspects of Champ Car that would translate well into Indycar?

[stmookeyj]

No to timed races, maybe to standing starts.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

I think flying starts for ovals and standing starts for road courses may work if the schedule will indeed be fifty-fifty. But timed races suck.

[BobGarage]

the only rerason timed races worked last year is because of the two hour TV time slots CC were forced into last year. with a better tv deal there is no need for timed races.

[jwhite9185]

didnt like either of them - standing starts is for f1 and i just didnt like the timed races much.

[BenRoethig]

No way to either. Timed races are for club series and the standing start is a formula racing thing.

[Breeze]

Much, MUCH prefer standing starts to rolling on street and road courses. One of the most aggravating things from CART's past was having a rolling start waived off because the cars weren't lined up properly. HATED IT!.
Standing starts are better for reasons already mentioned and also they can give drivers that get a really good start a better chance from the back.

[edv]

^^Agreed with Breeze. Standing starts are a great improvement over rolling starts on all non-oval races. Especially without launch or traction controls.

[!!WALDO!!]

Standing starts really do not belong in American Open Wheel racing. Flying starts are very exciting if the starter has a "set". The pole sitter must hit the start/finish line first after that it is wide open.
Actually fewer accidents over history of starting line crashes than some car rear ending a stalled car. Insurance is also cheaper for that reason, so CCWS paid more money than if they had flying starts.

Timed races are garbage. Just change the length of shows to fit the TV. When you are getting paid it isn't as important compared to buying time.
If you want fans to pay $85.00 per ticket, they need more than an hour, forty five of the "big race". Look at NASCAR, same money and 3 plus hours. If people are to travel they need to have value.

Now if weather comes into play or darkness then the NASCAR way is the best. Example: Race is to be green flagged at 1:15PM, it is raining, and they get it dried and ready to go at 4:30 and there is only 3 hours of sun light left. The race becomes a crash fest and and 6:45 the half way plus one occurs.
Then NASCAR will warn the competitors that there is only 35 minutes of race left potentially. Two more yellows, and at 7:15 they tell the competitors there is only 10 laps left.
That can be used, so it mixes distance, time and a "dash" into an equation. That way the fans leave happier. There were those mad that Dario won in the rain, they should have dried the track to finish it.

I bet those fans would have wanted the 1975 race to restart after a downpour that caught many cars and wrecked them but by the time Bobby Unser got into the pace car the sun was out, but the creeks were full.

No one likes these deals but it is part and parcel to our sport, but standing starts are too dangerous and timed races are not value added.

Timed races = no good. I'd love to see standing starts for road/street courses.

[bblocker68]

Rolling starts wreaked havoc for places with a very tight turn 1, such as Cleveland and Portland. Standing starts are perfect for places like those. I'm going to pray they have standing starts for Long Becah.

Timed races are horrible and Champcar has had them for longer than I can remember. Please do away with them.

[garyshell]

Standing starts really do not belong in American Open Wheel racing. Flying starts are very exciting if the starter has a "set". The pole sitter must hit the start/finish line first after that it is wide open.


I would agree on OVALS, but not necessarily on road courses. Especially where the last turn before the start line is very close. I think on SOME street and road courses it does make sense to have standing starts. The starter can guage the "set" pretty easily on an oval, but not so on many non oval tracks.

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

I would agree on OVALS, but not necessarily on road courses. Especially where the last turn before the start line is very close. I think on SOME street and road courses it does make sense to have standing starts. The starter can guage the "set" pretty easily on an oval, but not so on many non oval tracks.

Gary

Consistancy is what is important. If you can't do it everywhere then you can't do it.

How many American Series use standing starts? ALMS? Grand-Am? Fans get pumped for the start and want to see the cars race for the lead. How many times in F-1 is the race into turn 1, after that it is over? Notice that does sell the product in the U.S. as there are about as many F-1 in the U.S. as the Trucks have.

No, American racing must sell to Americans. They are used to flying starts. You want to sell it to people from Chad or the Sudan then do standing starts and get a couple races over there.

[garyshell]

Consistancy is what is important. If you can't do it everywhere then you can't do it.

Why? Who says it is important? Who says you can't do it?


How many American Series use standing starts? ALMS? Grand-Am? Fans get pumped for the start and want to see the cars race for the lead. How many times in F-1 is the race into turn 1, after that it is over? Notice that does sell the product in the U.S. as there are about as many F-1 in the U.S. as the Trucks have.

Who cares how many do it? If all the other series banned helmets, does that mean that the IRL should? Yes, yes, I know that is hyperbole. But I remember my dear departed Mom preaching "Just because all the other kids..." This ain't F1. The cars are just a tad more evenly matched, dontcha think???


No, American racing must sell to Americans. They are used to flying starts. You want to sell it to people from Chad or the Sudan then do standing starts and get a couple races over there.

Again I ask, so what? If it makes sense to the improvement of the racing it might be a good idea. And as for the "sell to Americans", if we always took that advice I wonder how many bottles of salsa would be sold each year in the US. You do know that salsa now outsells catsup/ketchup don't you? And trust me, it is not just because of the rise in the Latin population in the US. Americans tastes do change but ONLY after they are given that opportunity. Twenty years ago how many refrigerators had a bottle of salsa in them? How many do now?

Note I am not suggesting this for ovals. Only for street/road tracks and only those where it makes sense. One size does not fit all, nor is there a compelling reason for it to.

Gary

[bblocker68]

Consistancy is what is important. If you can't do it everywhere then you can't do it.

How many American Series use standing starts? ALMS? Grand-Am? Fans get pumped for the start and want to see the cars race for the lead. How many times in F-1 is the race into turn 1, after that it is over? Notice that does sell the product in the U.S. as there are about as many F-1 in the U.S. as the Trucks have.

No, American racing must sell to Americans. They are used to flying starts. You want to sell it to people from Chad or the Sudan then do standing starts and get a couple races over there.

If that's the case, we'd be running on ovals or road or street courses ONLY to be consistant. This series is a mix, so what is wrong with standing starts on a road or street course. They were great last year. They provided great entertainment for the fans and the were SAFE.

Atlantics use standing starts and were the forerunner of Champcar using them. They proved perfect R&D. Many starts in Champcar had passing after the standing start. Cleveland and Toronto come to mind. I have a feeling you weren't watching Champcar last year.

I'm an American, born and raised. I relly liked standing starts on tracks that benefit from them. Standing starts kicked ass last year and they would in the future. AND THEY'RE SAFER than flying starts!! It's nice to remember to past and learn from it. Living in it is detremental to the sport. A little proven innovation can go a long way in this newly unified series.

[JasonD]

I think a mix rolling and standing starts could be a good idea. Wouldnt it create a little more interest. Its a different skillset so why not throw it into the mix.

[!!WALDO!!]

Why? Who says it is important? Who says you can't do it?

American racing fans and Insurance Companies. We haven't had standing starts in Championship racing since the 19 Teens. Maybe some of those fans remember but I do not know to many that are alive.




Who cares how many do it? If all the other series banned helmets, does that mean that the IRL should? Yes, yes, I know that is hyperbole. But I remember my dear departed Mom preaching "Just because all the other kids..." This ain't F1. The cars are just a tad more evenly matched, dontcha think???

Banning Helmets would cause races to be non insured, if that happens no race. very poor example. How many crashes did the CCWS have on those starts? It is an issue of mininizing risks for the drivers, the car owners, fans and track workers. With a new chassis and an old chassis and racing almost every weekend from Indy on you do not need a bunch of wrecked equipment.



Again I ask, so what? If it makes sense to the improvement of the racing it might be a good idea. And as for the "sell to Americans", if we always took that advice I wonder how many bottles of salsa would be sold each year in the US. You do know that salsa now outsells catsup/ketchup don't you? And trust me, it is not just because of the rise in the Latin population in the US. Americans tastes do change but ONLY after they are given that opportunity. Twenty years ago how many refrigerators had a bottle of salsa in them? How many do now?

How many of our Mexican-American friends are racing fans? Since the percentage of total American is 2%, I would bet less. I have 500 here I do not know one that is.


Note I am not suggesting this for ovals. Only for street/road tracks and only those where it makes sense. One size does not fit all, nor is there a compelling reason for it to.

Gary

Racing is consistancy, not one size fits all. You must remain constant. I saw no compelling reason for CCWS doing it in some races and not doing it in others. Some were dropped weeks before as it was too difficult. All it does in our sport without consistancy is make the sanction look like idiots.

[!!WALDO!!]

Atlantics use standing starts and were the forerunner of Champcar using them. They proved perfect R&D. Many starts in Champcar had passing after the standing start. Cleveland and Toronto come to mind. I have a feeling you weren't watching Champcar last year.

Used it for the first time last year? I would not put a lot of hope in the future of the Atlantics as KK and GF are going to spend $6,000,000 and get back what? I heard a rumor that the series is already on the "block".


I'm an American, born and raised. I relly liked standing starts on tracks that benefit from them. Standing starts kicked ass last year and they would in the future. AND THEY'RE SAFER than flying starts!! It's nice to remember to past and learn from it. Living in it is detremental to the sport. A little proven innovation can go a long way in this newly unified series.

Number of 1st lap crashes in percentage is about 1% meaning out of 100 races one involved a crash. How much safer are standing starts? Safer than that?

[bblocker68]

Go to Long Beach or St. Pete or Houston for a race Waldo. There are tons of our "Mexican-American friends" there. You seem to show that you are uninformed and the racial tone of this thread is starting to take a turn for the worse. You may offend a person or two by making such statements.

[bblocker68]

Atlantics started it in 2006, not last year.

Turning a blind eye to rolling starts at Cleveland, Toronto, Portland and others by merely talking about percentages to make your story look good is kind of pathetic. I remember Greg Moore almost taking out 4 cars at Portland on the first turn. Tagliani and PT have also dont the same thing. Cleveland and Portland are crashes in the waiting on a rolling start.

Disclaimer: I'm moving on from this arguement, so you wont see another reply.

[!!WALDO!!]

Go to Long Beach or St. Pete or Houston for a race Waldo. There are tons of our "Mexican-American friends" there. You seem to show that you are uninformed and the racial tone of this thread is starting to take a turn for the worse. You may offend a person or two by making such statements.

Look where oh where are racial overtones. I have 500 workers here, all are Mexican-American and none are racing fans. All of the American people here are, 10 and I am the only open wheel fan.

Long Beach, ok how many Mexican-American are in the crowd? St. Pete ok how many Mexican-American are in the crowd? Houston isn't on the schedule.
How many races in Mexico are standing Starts that they may have seen? Baja 500, Baja 1000?
F-1 has been there in how many years?

See when you make an argument try to keep emotion out of it. I been around this sport too long. They used to use LeMans starts in Endurance racing but insurance companies killed that.

It is about risk not who wants it. He!! I would like car so you can see the driver work like I grew up with. Too bad that injuries caused insurance companies to mandate common sense into the sport.

[pits4me]

Consistancy is what is important. If you can't do it everywhere then you can't do it.

How many American Series use standing starts? ALMS? Grand-Am? Fans get pumped for the start and want to see the cars race for the lead. How many times in F-1 is the race into turn 1, after that it is over? Notice that does sell the product in the U.S. as there are about as many F-1 in the U.S. as the Trucks have.

No, American racing must sell to Americans. They are used to flying starts. You want to sell it to people from Chad or the Sudan then do standing starts and get a couple races over there.

WALDO, in case you haven't noticed, this may be an AMERICAN-based series but it has an international audience and sponsors. Tony Cotman figured it out. They've had standing starts for years with the Atlantic's which differentiated it from Indy Light aka IPS. Rolling starts are boring in non-oval competition.

Others have already posted the benefits of standing starts in this forum. What's good is to see a driver who qualified mid pack be much better on cold tires and clutch than his competitors. This element has always been a factor in fostering great competitiion in open wheel formula racing. Especially a spec platform series like CC/Indycar.

Too many non-oval circuits have a turn 1 incident with rolling starts. Cotman's move to standing starts in Champ Car reduced the number of first lap incidents tremendously. Very easy on the racing budget too!
It may be even better with the IRL package unless the pedal to the floor racers have forgotten that particular driving skill. That being the case, let's get Ashley Force to teach Danica and the boys how to REALLY drive when the light says GO.

Hopefully, TC will convince Indycar to adopt the painted white line in certain corners as well. This led to some great passing in the corners since drivers had to pick either the inside or outside apex allowing room for faster cars to initiate a pass. Much better than tradtional blocking tactics we see at St. Pete's, Infineon and Watkins Glen.

[nanders]

Burning rubber, Methanol fumes, Salsa and standing starts ..... sounds good to me. Yeah baby!

[bblocker68]

Long Beach, ok how many Mexican-American are in the crowd?

You're kidding me, right? Do you realize what percentage of Mexican-American's live in Los Angeles county? How many were there? Not sure, but there were thousands, I know that. I was there just like the 20 years before it. Pretty sure you weren't. I'm not letting emotions get to me, but I have to call you on it when your statements are far from the truth.

I know I was supposed to stop, but you keep fdragging me back in :)

[nanders]

I heard a rumor that the series is already on the "block".

Link please.

[!!WALDO!!]

WALDO, in case you haven't noticed, this may be an AMERICAN-based series but it has an international audience and sponsors. Tony Cotman figured it out. They've had standing starts for years with the Atlantic's which differentiated it from Indy Light aka IPS. Rolling starts are boring in non-oval competition.

Yet, how many Americans follow F-1? Couple hundred thousand? So how many outside of North America follow Indy Car?


Others have already posted the benefits of standing starts in this forum. What's good is to see a driver who qualified mid pack be much better on cold tires and clutch than his competitors. This element has always been a factor in fostering great competitiion in open wheel formula racing. Especially a spec platform series like CC/Indycar.

You mean spec like the DP01? What part of minimizing risk do you not understand?


Too many non-oval circuits have a turn 1 incident with rolling starts. Cotman's move to standing starts in Champ Car reduced the number of first lap incidents tremendously. Very easy on the racing budget too! It may be even better with the IRL package unless the pedal to the floor racers have forgotten that particular driving skill. That being the case, let's get Ashley Force to teach Danica and the boys how to REALLY drive when the light says GO.

How many cars stalled at the start? St Jovite wasn't three? Rolling start would have been none.


Hopefully, TC will convince Indycar to adopt the painted white line in certain corners as well. This led to some great passing in the corners since drivers had to pick either the inside or outside apex allowing room for faster cars to initiate a pass. Much better than tradtional blocking tactics we see at St. Pete's, Infineon and Watkins Glen.

So you want contrived racing. Lines remind me of NASCAR.

[!!WALDO!!]

Link please.

If I could link you to a phone call at 0904:32 I would. Not everything is on the internet.

Why me, I know people that may be interested in buying something or partnering. I do doubt that this series would do it for them.

I am sorry I have made friends over the years.

[!!WALDO!!]

You're kidding me, right? Do you realize what percentage of Mexican-American's live in Los Angeles county? How many were there? Not sure, but there were thousands, I know that. I was there just like the 20 years before it. Pretty sure you weren't. I'm not letting emotions get to me, but I have to call you on it when your statements are far from the truth.

I know I was supposed to stop, but you keep fdragging me back in :)

How many races in Mexico are standing Starts that they may have seen? Baja 500, Baja 1000?
F-1 has been there in how many years?

Instead of coming after me read what I posted. Hey Mexican-American or not how many people will drop $80.00 for a ticket if they make $10.00 per hour?

Economic drives the deal, one of my girlfriends lives within miles of the LBGP and will not go. She used to view if from the 8th floor of her office building when she worked there.

So thousands is three thousand and eighty thousand show up and it isn't even 1 out of 20. Again, math is exact not a bunch of guesses.

If you believe what you post, then if 20,000,000 live in the LA region, then 400,000 are racing fans and just about every open wheel fan will be at long Beach.

[gofastandwynn]

The main thing I want to see changed is to bring in the knockout qualifying that Formula 1 uses. It is really exciting and is a great show.

[!!WALDO!!]

The main thing I want to see changed is to bring in the knockout qualifying that Formula 1 uses. It is really exciting and is a great show.

A gimmick that was introduced a few years ago to shore up sagging attendance on non race days.
In my day, 100 mile dirt race started 18 cars and 30 would show up so 12 cars got bumped.
I pointed out a race at Milwaukee in 1960 where 20 qualified and the cars bumped got to race in a consolation race with the top 2 transferring to the 100 miler. Cars that went home was Jim Rathmann who won the 500 a week earlier, Jimmy Bryan, the 1958 500 winner who would die in the next race, Troy Ruttman, the 1952 500 winner. Eddie Sachs, the pole sitter at Indy won the consi.
Sending cars home adds more entertainment that starting all that show. I never missed qualifying in those days, now it doesn’t matter.

[garyshell]

Who cares how many do it? If all the other series banned helmets, does that mean that the IRL should? Yes, yes, I know that is hyperbole. But I remember my dear departed Mom preaching "Just because all the other kids..." This ain't F1. The cars are just a tad more evenly matched, dontcha think???


Banning Helmets would cause races to be non insured, if that happens no race. very poor example. How many crashes did the CCWS have on those starts? It is an issue of mininizing risks for the drivers, the car owners, fans and track workers. With a new chassis and an old chassis and racing almost every weekend from Indy on you do not need a bunch of wrecked equipment.

Note I said I knew it was hyperbole. I was making the point that just because other series does a particular thing does NOT mean IRL must emulate it.



And as for the "sell to Americans", if we always took that advice I wonder how many bottles of salsa would be sold each year in the US. You do know that salsa now outsells catsup/ketchup don't you? And trust me, it is not just because of the rise in the Latin population in the US. Americans tastes do change but ONLY after they are given that opportunity. Twenty years ago how many refrigerators had a bottle of salsa in them? How many do now?


How many of our Mexican-American friends are racing fans? Since the percentage of total American is 2%, I would bet less. I have 500 here I do not know one that is.

What does THAT have to do with the point I made? The point was if folks are never offered anything new, they will never change. When offered salsa on the store shelves, the American publics' tastes changed. Offering standing starts might very well result in a shift in the American publics taste. To say that you must continue to do things the same way or the American public will never accept it flies in the face of all logic.


Note I am not suggesting this for ovals. Only for street/road tracks and only those where it makes sense. One size does not fit all, nor is there a compelling reason for it to.


Racing is consistency, not one size fits all. You must remain constant. I saw no compelling reason for CCWS doing it in some races and not doing it in others. Some were dropped weeks before as it was too difficult. All it does in our sport without consistency is make the sanction look like idiots.

You keep repeating this mantra of consistency. What consistency? Do we race on all ovals, or all street courses? Are all the races the same length. Do all the races start at the same time? Do all tracks use the same spot for the start line and the finish line? Why MUST it be constant? You still have not answered that question? There IS a compelling reason to do it on some and not others. To wit: it makes no sense to do it on ovals. It makes enormous sense to do it on road/street courses where the start finish line is so close to the last corner that the starter can't see the field. Or where the first turn is too close to the start finish line. Why do you think they always start the field on the back straight at Mid Ohio?

Gary

[!!WALDO!!]

Atlantics started it in 2006, not last year.

Turning a blind eye to rolling starts at Cleveland, Toronto, Portland and others by merely talking about percentages to make your story look good is kind of pathetic.

Not on the schedule in 2008, so we must change things for races that do not exist any more and may not in the future.

It is call "measuring risk". If in your business every other time a machine is turned on someone gets hurt, will the Insurance Company insure you for a 50% injury rate?

Measuring risk is as basic as taking a breath.

[!!WALDO!!]

Note I said I knew it was hyperbole. I was making the point that just because other series does a particular thing does NOT mean IRL must emulate it.

No, but the American public sees it on TV with NASCAR so why wreck cars.



What does THAT have to do with the point I made? The point was if folks are never offered anything new, they will never change. When offered salsa on the store shelves, the American publics' tastes changed. Offering standing starts might very well result in a shift in the American publics taste. To say that you must continue to do things the same way or the American public wil never accept it flies in the face of all logic.

One year and a handful of races that nobody saw makes it viable?


You keep repeating this mantra of consistency. What consistency? Do we race on all ovals, or all street courses? Are all the races the same length. Do all the races start at the same time? Do all tracks use the same spot for the start line and the finish line? Why MUST it be constant? You still have not answered that question? There IS a compelling reason to do it on some and not others. To wit: it makes no sense to do it on ovals. It makes enormous sense to do it on road/street courses where the start finish line is so close to the last corner that the starter can't see the field. Or where the first turn is too close to the start finish line. Why do you think they always start the field on the back straight at Mid Ohio?

Gary


It is called a "rulebook" that is where the consistancy must be. Not races, length, place or terrain. One rule for the Series not two like the CCWS went through last year. Again understand it has to do with Insurance not your or others desires.

[grungex]

Why do you keep nattering on about insurance? What does it have to do with standing starts?

[bblocker68]

How many races in Mexico are standing Starts that they may have seen? Baja 500, Baja 1000?
F-1 has been there in how many years?

Instead of coming after me read what I posted. Hey Mexican-American or not how many people will drop $80.00 for a ticket if they make $10.00 per hour?

Economic drives the deal, one of my girlfriends lives within miles of the LBGP and will not go. She used to view if from the 8th floor of her office building when she worked there.

So thousands is three thousand and eighty thousand show up and it isn't even 1 out of 20. Again, math is exact not a bunch of guesses.

If you believe what you post, then if 20,000,000 live in the LA region, then 400,000 are racing fans and just about every open wheel fan will be at long Beach.

So now most Mexican-Americans are making $10.00 an hour??? I keep waiting for you to call the Mexican/Latino public "you people".

That is a broad generalization my friend. Stereotyping like that is ignorant. Your argument gets worse by the minute. You are uninformed of the paying crowd at Long Beach and sticking to your guns just makes you look worse.

BTW, did the Hermanos Rodriguez race have a rolling or standing start? If it was standing, you answered your question typed in bold 5x over.

Let's see if I can stop looking at this thread..................again.

[BobGarage]

A1GP feature race is also standing start in mexico.
also most lower formula series in mexico are standing starts. Mexican f3 etc.

does anyone, except busch series and nascar mexico, run rolling starts in mexico?

[garyshell]

You keep repeating this mantra of consistency. What consistency? Do we race on all ovals, or all street courses? Are all the races the same length. Do all the races start at the same time? Do all tracks use the same spot for the start line and the finish line? Why MUST it be constant? You still have not answered that question? There IS a compelling reason to do it on some and not others. To wit: it makes no sense to do it on ovals. It makes enormous sense to do it on road/street courses where the start finish line is so close to the last corner that the starter can't see the field. Or where the first turn is too close to the start finish line. Why do you think they always start the field on the back straight at Mid Ohio?

Gary


It is called a "rulebook" that is where the consistancy must be. Not races, length, place or terrain. One rule for the Series not two like the CCWS went through last year. Again understand it has to do with Insurance not your or others desires.

I am still waiting on an explanation on this concept of consistency. Why MUST it be consistent? You keep saying it has to be that way, but never give a REASON why. Consistency over innovation breeds complacency.

What do you know about the insurance? I am not challenging you on this, just asking a legitimate question. What do you know? What influence are the insurance companies placing on this? Why was the CCWS able to do this last year? Did they go without insurance?

To me the bottom line in all this was that Tony Cotman bought into the concept. If it was good enough for him, it is good enough for me. He knows far more than you or I about what works and what doesn't.

Gary

[pits4me]

Yet, how many Americans follow F-1? Couple hundred thousand? So how many outside of North America follow Indy Car?


Time to wake up from your motorsports hibernation. Walk down pit lane in ALMS, ChampCar or IndyCar. How many American accents do you hear versus European or South American ones?

How about drivers? Is Castroneves American? I didn't think so.

Venture to other sites and boards besides the Indycentric ones and you'll see that the European support for CC started almost 15 years ago when Nigell came to CART. Did you see how many French supporters knew of Bourdais at the real Race of Champions? NO? I guess you had to be there.

This has little to do with standing starts, push to pass, or lanes in corners. Great innovations for competition on street and road courses. Timed racing was good when there is no answer for full course yellow.

As for Formula One? Maybe you missed the TV numbers last year. Monaco is still a big race and young Lewis drew quite a large US audience for the British GP. Most of those watching were likely naturalized American citizens so that may explain your dilemma with Formula One.

What is clear is that fans were not interested in going to Indy to see a F1 race. Or Phoenix, Las Vegas etc. I've attended F1 in Montreal and Long Beach and seen the huge crowds. Manufacturers like Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Honda and Toyota know their audience. That's why there are so many American corporate sponsors still involved. If anyone has studied the numbers, its them. A race just won't happen here until Bernie makes it mutually beneficial with a promoter to do so. Long Beach would be my choice for F1 return if IndyCar continues to run old technology in US based open wheel.

[!!WALDO!!]

I am still waiting on an explanation on this concept of consistency. Why MUST it be consistent? You keep saying it has to be that way, but never give a REASON why. Consistency over innovation breeds complacency.

American like things constant. How many radio stations do you have dialed in on your car radio. They see 36 races a year times 2 with flying starts, they see it in Grand-Am, the ALMS, the IRL, the WoO and at every short track in the country. A handful of support races over the last couple years and a few racing in the U.S. does not make the majority. Rule books are written with a contsant formula not do it this way and that way.


What do you know about the insurance? I am not challenging you on this, just asking a legitimate question. What do you know?

I promoted races and saw restrictions. I paid insurance companies money, had tracks inspected by insurance companies, had claims paid by insurance companies. So I know nothing.


What influence are the insurance companies placing on this? Why was the CCWS able to do this last year? Did they go without insurance?

A stalled car could cause another car to go over it an launch into the fencing or go into the crowd. Nope, they picked wide places and some regular roadcourses and paid a higher price for that based on the conditions.


To me the bottom line in all this was that Tony Cotman bought into the concept. If it was good enough for him, it is good enough for me. He knows far more than you or I about what works and what doesn't.

Gary

One year doesn't make it right. Based on that then Barnhart is 7 times smarter about this because he has 7 years more experience.

[grungex]

So you would have us believe that insurance costs go up when standing starts are used? Do you realize just how ridiculous that is?

[!!WALDO!!]

Time to wake up from your motorsports hibernation. Walk down pit lane in ALMS, ChampCar or IndyCar. How many American accents do you hear versus European or South American ones?

How about drivers? Is Castroneves American? I didn't think so.

Venture to other sites and boards besides the Indycentric ones and you'll see that the European support for CC started almost 15 years ago when Nigell came to CART. Did you see how many French supporters knew of Bourdais at the real Race of Champions? NO? I guess you had to be there.

This has little to do with standing starts, push to pass, or lanes in corners. Great innovations for competition on street and road courses. Timed racing was good when there is no answer for full course yellow.

As for Formula One? Maybe you missed the TV numbers last year. Monaco is still a big race and young Lewis drew quite a large US audience for the British GP. Most of those watching were likely naturalized American citizens so that may explain your dilemma with Formula One.

What is clear is that fans were not interested in going to Indy to see a F1 race. Or Phoenix, Las Vegas etc. I've attended F1 in Montreal and Long Beach and seen the huge crowds. Manufacturers like Mercedes, BMW, Ferrari, Honda and Toyota know their audience. That's why there are so many American corporate sponsors still involved. If anyone has studied the numbers, its them. A race just won't happen here until Bernie makes it mutually beneficial with a promoter to do so. Long Beach would be my choice for F1 return if IndyCar continues to run old technology in US based open wheel.


Formula one died in the U.S. I hate to say but Bernie said the first Indy U.S. had the "largest crowd he had seen in F-1"
If 125,000 show up for 17 races that is 2,125,000 fans that go. That is what the Nationwide series draws here and less than half of what NASCAR Sprint Cup gets.

I got an idea for you, put up $35,000,000. That is what Bernie is asking for 2010. Bye bye Australia, bye-bye Great Britain, bye-bye Germany.

Yup, it is the greatest series in other places but not here. Monaco drew what here? I would like to see a LINK to some ratings.

[!!WALDO!!]

So you would have us believe that insurance costs go up when standing starts are used? Do you realize just how ridiculous that is?

A stalled car could cause another car to go over it an launch into the fencing or go into the crowd. Nope, they picked wide places and some regular roadcourses and paid a higher price for that based on the conditions.

Try reading the whole post.

[grungex]

I read the whole post the first time, and your assertion is still ridiculous. Try again.

[qwinsee]

Loved the standing starts, hated the timed races. Oh, and let me add the optional tires to the mix.

[!!WALDO!!]

I read the whole post the first time, and your assertion is still ridiculous. Try again.

Oh so crapwagons do not fly now. I saw a driver killed once when he approached a slowed car and right rear over road the left rear of another car and the car cleared a 12 foot fence and missed a stand by 10 feet. Driver killed on the spot.

Wide tires over cars could cause a car to fly. If it gets into the fence you could have dangerous debris fly everywhere.
The Toronto accident even though not a standing start was an indication of what happens when a car slows suddenly. Three cars destroyed, one driver dead and two officials dead.

So believe what you want, a DOT and some temp fencing is what keeps are car from landing in a crowd at Long Beach.

The Insurance companies know the risk of both, even if you do not.

[garyshell]

I am still waiting on an explanation on this concept of consistency. Why MUST it be consistent? You keep saying it has to be that way, but never give a REASON why. Consistency over innovation breeds complacency.


American like things constant. How many radio stations do you have dialed in on your car radio. They see 36 races a year times 2 with flying starts, they see it in Grand-Am, the ALMS, the IRL, the WoO and at every short track in the country. A handful of support races over the last couple years and a few racing in the U.S. does not make the majority. Rule books are written with a contsant formula not do it this way and that way.

Americans do NOT like things constant. If they did, ketchup would still out sell salsa. What part of that am I not explaining to you??? Rule books are NOT written with a constant formula, they all have exceptions and options. They all allow MidOhio to have a finish line at a different point on the track than the the start line, don't they?


What do you know about the insurance? I am not challenging you on this, just asking a legitimate question. What do you know? What influence are the insurance companies placing on this? Why was the CCWS able to do this last year? Did they go without insurance?


I promoted races and saw restrictions. I paid insurance companies money, had tracks inspected by insurance companies, had claims paid by insurance companies. So I know nothing.

A stalled car could cause another car to go over it an launch into the fencing or go into the crowd. Nope, they picked wide places and some regular roadcourses and paid a higher price for that based on the conditions.

Please read my question again, before you take such umbrage. I was not asking HOW you know, I assumed you did know. I was asking WHAT you know. I wanted to find out the specifics of how the inbsurance compaines charge different fees for rolling starts and standing starts. You only told us you know without any specifics.


To me the bottom line in all this was that Tony Cotman bought into the concept. If it was good enough for him, it is good enough for me. He knows far more than you or I about what works and what doesn't.



One year doesn't make it right. Based on that then Barnhart is 7 times smarter about this because he has 7 years more experience.

So you dismiss Cotman as knowing nothing???

Gary

[grungex]

!!WALDO!!, Crapwagons flying have absolutely nothing to do with standing starts. Since you're so certain that insurance rates went up, I'm sure you can provide evidence thereof. Right? Because you wishing it so doesn't make it real.

[!!WALDO!!]

Americans do NOT like things constant. If they did, ketchup would still out sell salsa. What part of that am I not explaining to you??? Rule books are NOT written with a constant formula, they all have exceptions and options. They all allow MidOhio to have a finish line at a different point on the track than the the start line, don't they?

How many years has the IRL raced at Mid Ohio? One year. In some cases you do what is traditional. What is traditional about Indy Cars/Chamo Cars doing standing starts.



Please read my question again, before you take such umbrage. I was not asking HOW you know, I assumed you did know. I was asking WHAT you know. I wanted to find out the specifics of how the inbsurance compaines charge different fees for rolling starts and standing starts. You only told us you know without any specifics.

I gave specifics in the grungex post but he doesn't believe that open wheel cars can fly. Did the CCWS have standing starts at every race? Nope, more than likely many conditions were not met to safely do it.

We can do all the speculating about it but the Indy car Series will not do it.
Why not talk Don Panoz into doing it or bring back the LeMans start.



So you dismiss Cotman as knowing nothing???

Gary

Nope, but one year on the job does not make him an expert. If he did in in every race then I would give him a little credit but Barnhart runs the show, not Cotman.

[grungex]

I gave specifics in the grungex post but he doesn't believe that open wheel cars can fly.

Don't you dare misinterpret what I said in an effort to bolster your made-up nonsense. I never said or implied anything of the sort and you bloody well know it. Post some proof or recant. :down: :down: :down: :down:

Furthermore, BB is a blithering idiot compared to Cotman.

[!!WALDO!!]

!!WALDO!!, Crapwagons flying have absolutely nothing to do with standing starts. Since you're so certain that insurance rates went up, I'm sure you can provide evidence thereof. Right? Because you wishing it so doesn't make it real.


Got an idea, take it up with those who make decisions, I told what I have heard, experienced, saw, witnessed and viewed.

I never thought I would see a non winged sprint car has high as the lights when the right rear dug in while qualifying but I did and so did the Insurance Company.

What does that have to do with this? He didn't run over anything and if it occurred in turn 4 he would have landed in the stands, rather than turn one. Joe Kristian was lucky, but not if he landed in the stands. That was at a real racetrack not some streets. Toronto's accident cause a stir in the Insurance companies about putting people at risk. Why at some tracks they do not sell the lower seats? They can't because of Insurance restrictions. Why no fans along the fence on the start or during the race?

I know you believe what you want but I can give you plenty of examples but it up to the Sanction to decide if they will do it or not. I doubt very highly any Standing Starts in 2008 or 2009.

[!!WALDO!!]

Don't you dare misinterpret what I said in an effort to bolster your made-up nonsense. I never said or implied anything of the sort and you bloody well know it. Post some proof or recant. :down: :down: :down: :down:

Furthermore, BB is a blithering idiot compared to Cotman.

I gave you examples. You chose not to believe it.

So Cotman is smarter than Barnhart. Funny both came from CART.

[grungex]

You gave examples of what can happen if a car rolls over another, which is not proof of anything, since that can happen in the absence of standing starts. Clearly you are making this up. Fail.

What does BB also coming from CART have to do with TC being smarter?

[!!WALDO!!]

You gave examples of what can happen if a car rolls over another, which is not proof of anything, since that can happen in the absence of standing starts. Clearly you are making this up. Fail.

What does BB also coming from CART have to do with TC being smarter?


You are right. I know nothing. I will petition the IRL to get Standing Starts at all race tracks.

Cotman is so smart I am in total wonderment that he isn't running against McCain.

You feel like you won, then good that is so important for the board. Get ahold of Cotman and lets get this done so the fans can see something different.

There you go, based on all you said I am supporting the concept.

[grungex]

<yawn>

[!!WALDO!!]

<yawn>


You won, go to sleep. Best thing since Turbo Chargers and Board Tracks is Standing Starts.

[garyshell]

Please read my question again, before you take such umbrage. I was not asking HOW you know, I assumed you did know. I was asking WHAT you know. I wanted to find out the specifics of how the insurance companies charge different fees for rolling starts and standing starts. You only told us you know without any specifics.


I gave specifics in the grungex post but he doesn't believe that open wheel cars can fly. Did the CCWS have standing starts at every race? Nope, more than likely many conditions were not met to safely do it.


No, you gave NO specifics about the different fess charged for rolling starts and standing starts. No, you introduced some spurious comments about a car being launched that wasn't even involved in a standing start. So lets get back to my question, shall we. What is the difference in the fees? What are the specifics? Do you or do you not know what the insurance companies charge for the two different types of starts?

Gary

[grungex]

Of course he doesn't know, he's making it all up to impress us. He failed to do so, unfortunately.

[!!WALDO!!]

No, you gave NO specifics about the different fess charged for rolling starts and standing starts. No, you introduced some spurious comments about a car being launched that wasn't even involved in a standing start. So lets get back to my question, shall we. What is the difference in the fees? What are the specifics? Do you or do you not know what the insurance companies charge for the two different types of starts?

Gary

You can answer it yourself. What races did they do the standing starts at.

See the concern is not standing starts, it is the conditions that could cause a car to launch into the stands. Starts, in the race or in qualifying.

In my world Insurance Companies have wanted Dirt tracks dry slick so a car could not do what I decribed. Racing and fans finish last in that deal.

A Las Vegas would cost more than a St Jovite because of not being a race track although an Edmonton or Cleveland would cost less than a Portland.

See it is about minimizing risk rather than thumbing your nose at it.

It doesn't matter, you and grungex want it then call Cotman and get it done.

Maybe it is better to talk about it in theory than find out that it really didn't work real well.

[garyshell]

You can answer it yourself. What races did they do the standing starts at.

See the concern is not standing starts, it is the conditions that could cause a car to launch into the stands. Starts, in the race or in qualifying.

In my world Insurance Companies have wanted Dirt tracks dry slick so a car could not do what I decribed. Racing and fans finish last in that deal.

A Las Vegas would cost more than a St Jovite because of not being a race track although an Edmonton or Cleveland would cost less than a Portland.

See it is about minimizing risk rather than thumbing your nose at it.

It doesn't matter, you and grungex want it then call Cotman and get it done.

Maybe it is better to talk about it in theory than find out that it really didn't work real well.

As I thought, you have no idea what the difference in price is for a race at a given track with a standing start versus a race on the same day at the same track if a rolling start is used. Nope instead you want to say there is a difference in price from a permanent course vs a temporary course vs an airport. Well, hell even us lowly know nothing peons know that. How about the answer to the original question instead of another round of spurious comments?

Gary

[BobGarage]

this thread has amused me.

is !!WALDO!! Sanguins long lost cousin? same attitude, just coming at the whole thing from a different direction!

[qwinsee]

I like standing starts!