F1: Top 100 drivers

[ArrowsFA1]

According to the Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/02/28/umform100.xml) Alan Henry has produced a new book giving his top 100 F1 drivers of all time.

They are, in reverse order:

100. Brian Redman
99. Jochen Mass
98. Stefan Johansson
97 Piers Courage
96. Trevor Taylor
95. Eugenio Castellotti
94. Jacques Laffite
93. Stuart Lewis-Evans
92. Wolfgang Von Trips
91. Ralf Schumacher
90. Roy Salvadori
89. Mike Hailwood
88. Raymond Sommer
87. Luigi Musso
86. John Watson
85. Jarno Trulli
84. Innes Ireland
83. Tom Pryce
82. Tony Brise
81 René Arnoux
80. Thierry Boutsen
79. Johnny Servoz-Gavin
78. Jean-Pierre Beltoise
77. Richie Ginther
76. Eddie Irvine
75. Michele Alboreto
74. Bruce Mclaren
73. Peter Collins
72. Patrick Depailler
71. Dick Seaman
70. Derek Warwick
69. Martin Brundle
68. Rubens Barrichello
67. Jenson Button
66. Patrick Tambay
65. Riccardo Patrese
64. Lorenzo Bandini
63. Elio de Angelis
62. Stefan Bellof
61. Froilan Gonzalez
60. Felipe Massa
59. David Coulthard
58. Jo Siffert
57. Peter Revson
56. Louis Chiron
55. Carlos Pace
54. Juan-Pablo Montoya
53. Jean Alesi
52. Denny Hulme
51. Clay Regazzoni
50. Ricardo Rodriguez
49. Jacques Villeneuve
48. Jean Behra
47. Pedro Rodriguez
46. Gerhard Berger
45. François Cevert
44. Graham Hill
43. Jean-Pierre Wimille
42. Jody Scheckter
41. Giuseppe Farina
40. Mike Hawthorn
39. Damon Hill
38. Phil Hill
37. James Hunt
36. Alan Jones
35. Jacky Ickx
34. Didier Pironi
33. Rudolf Caracciola
32. Fernando Alonso
31. Nigel Mansell
30. Lewis Hamilton
29. Kimi Raikkonen
28. Keke Rosberg
27. Dan Gurney
26. Hermann Lang
25. Ronnie Peterson
24. John Surtees
23. Guy Moll
22. Nelson Piquet
21. Jochen Rindt
20. Niki Lauda
19. Mario Andretti
18. Jack Brabham
17. Emerson Fittipaldi
16. Achille Varzi
15. Carlos Reutemann
14. Tony Brooks
13. Chris Amon
12. Gilles Villeneuve
11. Michael Schumacher
10. Mika Hakkinen
9. Tazio Nuvolari
8. Jackie Stewart
7. Bernd Rosemeyer
6. Juan-Manuel Fangio
5. Alberto Ascari
4. Alain Prost
3. Ayrton Senna
2. Jim Clark
1. Stirling Moss

Of course it's just one man's opinion :p :

[pino]

What a joke...Trulli only 85th :eek: :p :

[Ranger]

Of course it's just one man's opinion :p :

And his opinion is wrong! :devil:

[ShiftingGears]

Is this a mistake? Bernd Rosemeyer never drove in any F1 race...

[ArrowsFA1]

Perhaps Henry's book should refer to Grand Prix drivers.

[ShiftingGears]

EDIT: Yes it should. I assumed that it was shonky reporting, but the book cover does say F1. A marketing ploy, perhaps.

Also, Senna is above Schumacher, despite also having unsportsmanlike traits that dropped Schumacher to 11 in Henry's eyes.

[ArrowsFA1]

A marketing ploy, perhaps.
Indeed, particularly as Lewis Hamilton is on the cover (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Top-100-Formula-Drivers-Time/dp/1840468947/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204186404&sr=1-1). I'd guess the publishers, and not the author, chose that and the title.

Anyone could put together a list like this, and each one would be different.

[woody2goody]

It's a bit of a joke that Hamilton's 30th on the list, only one place behind Raikkonen, and incidentally in front of Alonso. when Raikkonen is in his 8th season, and Hamilton his second. The one season Hamilton has competed in he was defeated by Raikkonen.

I know a list like this is based on lots of things besides statistics, but based on the statistics it doesn't add up.

Races: Raikkonen 122, Hamilton 17
Poles: Raikkonen 15, Hamilton 5
Wins: Raikkonen 15, Hamilton 4
F Laps: Raikkonen 25, Hamilton 2
Podiums: Raikkonen 48, Hamilton 12
Points: Raikkonen 456, Hamilton 109
Titles: Raikkonen 1, Hamilton 0

Based on these alone, Kimi (and Fernando) should be quite a few places infront of Lewis.

[keysersoze]

Lovely to see Stefan Bellof at 62, but it begs the question: who is the highest ranked driver on the list who DIDN'T win an F1 race?

Kimi and Fernando should be around 12th-20th. JMO.

[ArrowsFA1]

Lovely to see Stefan Bellof at 62, but it begs the question: who is the highest ranked driver on the list who DIDN'T win an F1 race?
13. Chris Amon (well...he did...just not not a championship event)

[V12]

Hamilton above Mansell?!?!

Oh well...it's all a bit of fun I guess :D

94. Jacques Laffite

86. John Watson

85. Jarno Trulli

81 René Arnoux

80. Thierry Boutsen

Trulli, with one win and a couple of podiums in front of Laffite & Watson? Not on this planet. Boutsen, with three wins, ahead of Arnoux?

That says the list is bollocks, and it's only got to number 80!

I pretty much stopped reading Alan Henry's opinions in the late 80's, when Autosprint magazine (yes, the Italian mag, not a typo) used to do a journalists rating of the drivers after each race.

Henry gave Jonathan Palmer 8 out of 10 and his team-mate, Phillippe Streiff, 6 out of 10, despite the fact that Streiff out-qualified Palmer and finished 4th in the race to Palmers 5th.

That just stunk of the very worst of British motor-racing journalism. It made me realise that Henry was nothing more than a jingoistic, nationalistic xenophobe....the sort of bloke who no doubt thought it was hilarious for Alan Jones to drive the victory lap at Paul Ricard with a Union Jack.

[F1boat]

The list is comic. Utter rubbish.

[harvick#1]

Hamilton 30th. what, there are past champions that are behind him .

makes no sense at all

[RaikkonenRules]

Hakkinen beat Schumacher WTF :eek:

[Hawkmoon]

The fact that Stirling Moss never won a championship precludes him from being No. 1. I don't care why he never won, the fact is he didn't and there is no way he is better than Schumacher, Senna, Prost, Clark, and Fangio who won 21 world titles between them.

I'm sorry Mr Henry but that list is rubbish.

[Rollo]

For my money, the best drivers were:

1. Michael Schumacher
2. Alain Prost
3. Ayrton Senna
All three I thought were underhanded villans, whose character is questionable. So I have to mention these three:
1. Juan Manuel Fangio
2. Jackie Stewart
3. Stirling Moss

Stirling Moss is an interesting choice on the list but not number 1. He lost the 1958 WDC after standing up for Mike Hawthorn in Portgual and thus lost the '58 title after winning four races to Hawthorn's one. In this respect is character is better than Schumacher's who punted off two rivals to two world titles and given the opportunity even denied his teammate.

It must be noted that Moss never beat Fangio except for the '55 British GP, of which it has often been said that Fangio allowed Moss to win but Fangio never admitted to it.

Jackie Stewart left F1 at the top of his game and was an advocate for drivers' safety. In terms of what he's contributed back to the sport, Stewart wins hands-down.

[Osella]

Jacques Villeneuve 49th!?!!! But he never even started a race! ;) :p
Oooh, perhaps he meant the 'other one' ;)

And he puts people like Eddie Irvine in, and leaves out Mika Salo and Pierluigi Martini!! Hmm, one mans opinion is indeed, in this case, wrong! ;)

[ioan]

Stirling Moss the best ever?
Hamilton in the first 30 after only one season? (I suppose he'll rank at least 10th after at the end of 2008 no matter his achievements! :rolleyes:

Typically British, the guy thinks like he never left the Island, has never seen a TV set and only reads British journals!

As others already pointed out this top is a piece of crap!

[D-Type]

A few factual errors there.

With the wisdom of hindsight you can see that Moss actually lost the 1958 championship on the first lap of the Belgian GP when he was trying to out accelerate Tony Brooks and missed a gearchange and the revs went sky high leading to a burst engine. The Portugal incident is higher profile and indicative of the more sportsman-like attitude of the times.

"Moss never beat Fangio except for the 1955 British GP"
Ahem: Monaco 1956, Monza 1956, Aintree 1957, Pescara 1957, Monza 1957, Argentina 1958, Reims 1958.

However, I have to agree that judged solely on World Championship Formula 1 races Moss should not head the list. Include sports car races, rallies etc and there is a case, but ...

Lists are interesting because they reveal people's attitudes. To them does best mean statistically most successful, fastest, hardest racer, capable of winning in inferior cars, being the first choice of the top manufacturer, being the most exciting to watch, being the best at setting up a car, being regarded as 'the man to beat' by his fellow drivers, or what?

[ioan]

With the wisdom of hindsight you can see that Moss actually lost the 1958 championship on the first lap of the Belgian GP when he was trying to out accelerate Tony Brooks and missed a gearchange and the revs went sky high leading to a burst engine.

Well, based on this I strongly believe that a driver that destroys his engines because he can't properly use the gear lever should not be no. 1 in the all times top 100. :p :

[jens]

I have thought for some time that making all-time lists is quite useless, but maybe discussing about such rankings would be even a bigger waste of time? :p : Comparing racing in the early days and now makes it for me quite clear that it's impossible to compare drivers from so totally different eras and I even won't attempt to do it.

Such lists can only be made for fun and can't be taken seriously. Have no idea, why Alan Henry decided to make such ranking - to create some preseason debates to make life more interesting? :p : I had a higher opinion about him - after all, I have one of his books in my shelf - "Wheel to wheel. The Great Duels of Formula One Racing." :s mokin:

[maxu05]

There are monkeys in the deep jungle of the Amazon that could have compiled a better list than this one. Actually, a monkey is running F1, so it is plausible.

[maxu05]

oops, can I say monkey ? I hope no one is offended :D : :laugh:

[Rollo]

Only all of the Australians on the forum :D

[Cozzie]

Moss number one!
Hakkinen above Schumacher!
Hamilton in front of many champions!

Alan Henry calls himself an F1 journalist! Where did he do his research!!!???

[THE_LIBERATOR]

All I see is:

"OMG!!!!!!1111ELEVEN SOME ONE DOESN'T SHARE MY BIAS"

Did anyone stop to think that Allan Henry actually saw all these guys race? I value hais opinion more than some of you weird weird people, with your strange ideas :D

[ioan]

All I see is:

"OMG!!!!!!1111ELEVEN SOME ONE DOESN'T SHARE MY BIAS"

Did anyone stop to think that Allan Henry actually saw all these guys race? I value hais opinion more than some of you weird weird people, with your strange ideas :D


It's just that we have OUR OWN opinions! :p :

[Ranger]

All I see is:

"OMG!!!!!!1111ELEVEN SOME ONE DOESN'T SHARE MY BIAS"

Did anyone stop to think that Allan Henry actually saw all these guys race? I value hais opinion more than some of you weird weird people, with your strange ideas :D

Now you see, I would share his ideas... If he wasn't wrong!!

Moss is number one of all time... with zero titles. Despite being beaten by that guy who is #6, with 5 titles. (EDIT: and a win ratio of more than 50%, I might add)

This stinks a bit.

[ArrowsFA1]

Moss is number one of all time... with zero titles...
I guess that depends on the many different criteria AH used in making his judgements, and the importance we place on the WDC in determining "greatness".

[Ranger]

I guess that depends on the many different criteria AH used in making his judgements, and the importance we place on the WDC in determining "greatness".

Yes, and apparently "almost winning it" matters more than winning it, based on that #1.

Now I have no problem with Stirling in the Top 10, but you have a quick chat to Sir Stirling and he'll tell you the #1 driver of all time is #6 on that list.

It is just a bit of fun though.

[maxu05]

Maybe the labotomy had effected his judgement :D

[Garry Walker]

If I didn`t know who made up this list, I would think the person probably is suffering from a bad case of retardation... oops :D

Schumacher 11th ? :rotflmao:
Lewis in front of Alonso and Caracciola? :rotflmao:
Gilles 12? :rotflmao: (he shouldn`t be in top 20)
Lauda only 20th?
Graham Hill BEHIND Damon Hill?
Moss as nr.1? :rotflmao:

Stupid, idiotic, retarded list. It`s only worth is the undoubted comedy effect it brings.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's sad to see the insults being directed at the author :dozey:

[GaryG]

I think Henry would know the difference between Grands Prix and Formula One. F1 began in 1950. All F1 races are Grands Prix, but not all Grands Prix were F1 races. So, to include the pre-WWII drivers in the list is technically incorrect unless he labelled his list the 100 Greatest Grand Prix drivers.

Anyway, I think is it extremely difficult to compare drivers from different eras, but to put Stirling as #1 and Schumacher out of the top ten is just not right.

My top drivers by era or decade would be:

Pre-War: Nuvolari
50's: Fangio
60's: Clark
Late 60's to early 70's: Stewart
Mid-70's: Lauda
Early 80's: Prost
Late 80's: Senna
90's to Early 00's: Schumacher

[Garry Walker]

It's sad to see the insults being directed at the author :dozey:

If he wants to be not insulted, then next time he should think before coming out with ignorant and biased crap like this.

I hope no one buys his stupid book.

[DimitraF1]

a typical skatoratsa...

[Bezza]

Terrible list. I think Mr Henry holds a torch for the "nearly" men, which would explain the ridiculously high positions for Stirling Moss (1st!!!), Gilles Villeneuve and Carlos Reutemann.

And Hamilton ahead of Mansell? Maybe after Hamilton has had more than one season, but to say that now is stupid. Mansell started in a poor car (as do most), Hamilton was given the best car in the field for his first season.

[Daniel]

It's sad to see the insults being directed at the author :dozey:

What are people supposed to do if they don't value his opinion? Send him flowers :dozey:

Welcome to Arrows' lets defend the biased British media type person show!

[D-Type]

I think Henry would know the difference between Grands Prix and Formula One. F1 began in 1950. All F1 races are Grands Prix, but not all Grands Prix were F1 races. So, to include the pre-WWII drivers in the list is technically incorrect unless he labelled his list the 100 Greatest Grand Prix drivers.

Anyway, I think is it extremely difficult to compare drivers from different eras, but to put Stirling as #1 and Schumacher out of the top ten is just not right.

My top drivers by era or decade would be:

Pre-War: Nuvolari
50's: Fangio
60's: Clark
Late 60's to early 70's: Stewart
Mid-70's: Lauda
Early 80's: Prost
Late 80's: Senna
90's to Early 00's: SchumacherWell actually 1950 saw thw birth of the World Championship, Formula 1 was born a couple of years earlier.

I agree with your choice but would have made room for Piquet in there somewhere

[jso1985]

If I'd made my list and put Tarso Marques as number 1, my list still would be less of a joke than Henry's one, as I don't call myself a F1 journalist and I don't get payed for talking about F1!

And is so good to see, he is so UNbiased :laugh:

Button at 67? :laugh: and ahead of guys like Von Trips who almost won a championship and Ralf Schumacher who has won many more races than him and didn't need the help of rainy weather...

Hamilton ahead of Alonso and other champions? what the hell?

Graham Hill behind his son?

Michael Schumacher behind Hakkinen? I'm a Hakkinen and McLaren fan but I can't deny Schumacher was a better driver! :s

Moss at number 1? ahead of the guys who actually beat him?

what a joke of a list :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

What are people supposed to do if they don't value his opinion? Send him flowers :dozey:
Here's an idea...How about they offer their own opinion on the subject rather than resorting to cheap personal insults.

Welcome to Arrows' lets defend the biased British media type person show!
My disappointment has NOTHING to do with what you call the biased British media type person show because I couldn't give a flying fig about where Alan Henry, or anyone else for that matter, was born. However, it has everything to do with common decency and respect.

[Daniel]

Here's an idea...How about they offer their own opinion on the subject rather than resorting to cheap personal insults.

My disappointment has NOTHING to do with what you call the biased British media type person show because I couldn't give a flying fig about where Alan Henry, or anyone else for that matter, was born. However, it has everything to do with common decency and respect.

Here's an idea. How about not being so sensitive about people disagreeing with a rubbish list that some joker thought up and you posted.

[ArrowsFA1]

Here's an idea. How about not being so sensitive about people disagreeing with a rubbish list that some joker thought up and you posted.
Abosultely fine if "disagreeing" can be done without words such as "labotomy", "retarded", or "ignorant" being used to insult the author. I don't see why personal insults should be allowed against those who are not here to defend themselves when we don't generally accept them being used against members of this forum.

[maxu05]

Calm down everyone. I think most posts agree that the list is one persons opinion, and that not everyone is going to agree with it. I apologise for the labotomy remark if it offended anyone, I was merely trying to point out that it is crazy to think that one persons view will be seen and excepted by everyone else. Calm down Arrows, you made your point, don't let it get under your collar mate, and Daniel, some people do get sensitive about certain comments, so, a little restraint may be in order. If I post something, and I get blasted for it, I usually go back and re-think what I have said, and try to fix it. We are all motorsport fans and we should enjoy the racing, not get all worked up about a post that will be buried in a few weeks. Cheers all, and have a beer :beer:

[AndyRAC]

Must admit I'd always thought Alan Henry wasa pretty good journalist compared with a lot of the current British media in F1. But he really has lost his marbles - the list just doesn't make sense, and there are probably too many British drivers in the list - why isn't Julian Bailey or Perry McCarthy n the top 10???

[Brown, Jon Brow]

How can Moss be better than Clark? :confused:

Thats like saying Hakinnen was better than Schumacher............. :dozey:

[Daniel]

Abosultely fine if "disagreeing" can be done without words such as "labotomy", "retarded", or "ignorant" being used to insult the author. I don't see why personal insults should be allowed against those who are not here to defend themselves when we don't generally accept them being used against members of this forum.
At the end of the day if people are passionate about something if they see something they disagree with it will illicit a passionate response. Of course I don't advocate anyone going up to this guy and abusing him. I think people have a right to passionately disagree with him and express these feelings. If not we'd simply end up with a boring forum where people merely state that they agree/disagree and immediately agree to disagree with anyone who doesn't see eye to eye with them. Booooooooooring! Of course there is a certain level of decency that you should show to a person but I don't see Alan Henry anywhere round these parts :)

Half the forum would be banned if it was against forum rules to call GWB a half-wit moron and various other things.

[D-Type]

It may sound a bit priggish, but the attitude Ii like to think I take is that I won't post anything on a forum that I wouldn't be prepared to say to someone face to face. I think it is wrong to post some of the diatribes i have seen here and elsewhere.

Has anybody even looked at Alan Henry's book to see why his list looks the way it does? I haven't seen the book. Perhaps he is looking at more than mere WDC statistics. Could it be that he has considered other aspects such as performance in sports cars, performance in inferior cars, making you want to go and see a driver race, what a driver has put back into the sport, maybe even how well a driver's personality comes through on TV. Who knows?

I have read his previous The one hundred greatest Racing Drivers (ISBN1 903009 32 4, generation publications 2000). His introduction starts
At the end of the day this is a very subjective andpersonal assessment of the competitors I regard as the 100 greatest racing drivers of all time. ~

He later goes on to say
~ You might say there is no accurate way of cross-referencing, let's say, the achievementsof Ayrton Senna in a McLaren-Honda grand Prix car at Imola and richard petty's NASCAR Plymouth high on the Daytona banking. That is true to a degree, but is not quite the point. ~
He finishes with te words
~ More crucially, I like to think it takes into account the way they behaved, what they brought to the sport and - most important of all - the legacy they beqeathed to the next generation of fans.

OK. It's a different book with a different scope as it embraces all motor racing from the Gordon Bennet races to the present and not only WDC, F1, or GrandPrix racing, but the point is clear - the purpose of the book is to talk about racing drivers using the 'Top 100' as a peg to hang the talk on and not to try to produce a definitive ranking.

[Tazio]

Well stated on all points D' ^^^^^^^^
That is precisely why I've stayed off this thread (until now)

[ShiftingGears]

Heres my Top 10 based on driving talent. I am discounting racecraft here. Which is why Senna is on this list and Prost is not. Also because Prost never was obscenely quick in the rain, unlike everyone on this list.

1. Jim Clark - Dominant driver. Faster than everyone else in any car, in any conditions.
2. Michael Schumacher - Statistics speak for themselves.
3. Jackie Stewart - quick everywhere. Used his head and won championships in cars that weren't the quickest.
4. Juan Manuel Fangio - Dominant in his 40's, with 5 championships.
5. Ayrton Senna - completely committed, most talented driver on the grid for several years.
6. Stirling Moss - Had that ability to win in inferior cars (not just grands prix). He was the man to beat when F1 went to mid-engines.
7. Tazio Nuvolari - won races into his 50's, brave and utterly committed, won in vastly inferior cars.
8. Bernd Rosemeyer - instantly quick in a recalcitrant car, having never raced a car before in his life. Noone else mastered the Auto Union like Rosemeyer.
9. Rudolf Carracciola - Multiple European Champion. An excellent and very brave driver. " ... of all the great drivers I have known - Nuvolari, Rosemeyer, Lang, Moss or Fangio - Caracciola was the greatest of them all." - Alfred Neubauer.

10. Fernando Alonso - pips Raikkonen, only because he has 2 championships to his name. Time will tell. Also, Hamilton rattled him, but that's seperate from sheer driving talent.


Opinions?

[Ranger]

Opinions?

You missed that Prost guy.

[Valve Bounce]

I'd put Wayne Carey ahead of many of these guys!! :p :

[ShiftingGears]

I'd put Wayne Carey ahead of many of these guys!! :p :

Having a smashing time with the Wayne Carey jokes, I see :D

[Daniel]

Having a smashing time with the Wayne Carey jokes, I see :D
Valve bounce is the only person I know who thinks F1 fans care about Aussie Rules :p

[Garry Walker]

Abosultely fine if "disagreeing" can be done without words such as "labotomy", "retarded", or "ignorant" being used to insult the author. I don't see why personal insults should be allowed against those who are not here to defend themselves when we don't generally accept them being used against members of this forum.

If I made a list of the greatest humanists of all time and put Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Nero, Beria and Himmler in the top 7, I would find it quite okay for people to refer to me as "retarded idiot."
Alan Henry has compiled a list that has as much credibility as the example I brought up and deserves all the abuse he can get for his pathetic money-grabbing stunt.

[Daniel]

If I made a list of the greatest humanists of all time and put Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong, Nero, Beria and Himmler in the top 7, I would find it quite okay for people to refer to me as "retarded idiot."

I quite agree :up:

[BDunnell]

That's all very well, but again the language being used is totally out of proportion. This is, after all, a matter of opinion. You'd think from some of the comments that Alan Henry had run over the grandmother of the forum member in question, or something like that, and I'm rather fed up with it.

[Garry Walker]

That's all very well, but again the language being used is totally out of proportion. This is, after all, a matter of opinion. You'd think from some of the comments that Alan Henry had run over the grandmother of the forum member in question, or something like that, and I'm rather fed up with it.

I think you seriously need to toughen up a bit, if Alan Henry had run over someones relative then retarded and idiot would be the last words I would use. I would not be that kind at all then.

[BDunnell]

I think you seriously need to toughen up a bit, if Alan Henry had run over someones relative then retarded and idiot would be the last words I would use. I would not be that kind at all then.

I have no desire at all to 'toughen up a bit' if it means levelling insults at all and sundry.

[Garry Walker]

I have no desire at all to 'toughen up a bit' if it means levelling insults at all and sundry.

Well, then direct your anger towards Alan Henry and write him telling him to please stop insulting the intelligence of racing fans with such moronic lists.

[ArrowsFA1]

Of course there is a certain level of decency that you should show to a person...
Exactly :up:

[Daniel]

Exactly :up:

I don't see Alan Henry around though :)

[BDunnell]

My point is that most of us on these forums, while having disagreements from time to time, generally manage to express our differences of opinion with those on the board or our dislike of someone whose opinion we have read or seen without calling the other person 'stupid', 'retarded' or similar as a first resort, or even as a last resort. Doesn't exactly make for a nice atmosphere.

[Daniel]

My point is that most of us on these forums, while having disagreements from time to time, generally manage to express our differences of opinion with those on the board or our dislike of someone whose opinion we have read or seen without calling the other person 'stupid', 'retarded' or similar as a first resort, or even as a last resort. Doesn't exactly make for a nice atmosphere.
But plenty of the time people call GWB an idiot or say stuff about people in news stories :mark:

[BDunnell]

But plenty of the time people call GWB an idiot or say stuff about people in news stories :mark:

I believe there is a different courtesy to be used when addressing people 'to their face', so far as you can on a forum. In addition, I think there are much better ways of being rude about GWB than just calling him a 'retard' over and over again.

[Daniel]

I believe there is a different courtesy to be used when addressing people 'to their face', so far as you can on a forum. In addition, I think there are much better ways of being rude about GWB than just calling him a 'retard' over and over again.
Of course there's a different level of courtesy but as I said I can't see Alan around :)

Like I said we're dealing with passionate people here. I'm not that bothered about F1 and the worst I said was "joker" which I don't think is particularly insulting :) Perhaps some people see such bias and aren't happy with it and are just speaking their mind?

[BDunnell]

Of course there's a different level of courtesy but as I said I can't see Alan around :)

Like I said we're dealing with passionate people here. I'm not that bothered about F1 and the worst I said was "joker" which I don't think is particularly insulting :) Perhaps some people see such bias and aren't happy with it and are just speaking their mind?

I didn't have a problem with you at all. We are all rude about certain things or individuals from time to time, but when every single critique is couched in insulting terms, I think I have a right to feel that it's going too far. I disagree vehemently with your views on global warming, for example, but nowhere in those debates, as far as I recall, did I feel the need to call you a 'retard' or 'stupid' at any stage.

[Daniel]

I didn't have a problem with you at all. We are all rude about certain things or individuals from time to time, but when every single critique is couched in insulting terms, I think I have a right to feel that it's going too far. I disagree vehemently with your views on global warming, for example, but nowhere in those debates, as far as I recall, did I feel the need to call you a 'retard' or 'stupid' at any stage.
What I meant was that I didn't voice my views passionately because I'm not that passionate about the issue. Some others might be a bit more passionate about things so their language is a bit more passionate :)

[BDunnell]

What I meant was that I didn't voice my views passionately because I'm not that passionate about the issue. Some others might be a bit more passionate about things so their language is a bit more passionate :)

Yes, but there's passionate and there's rude. I am passionate about F1, and yet in disagreeing with others I would hope never to resort to calling someone names from the outset.

[D28]

I am not a huge fan of such lists, especially if they go beyond the best 10 or 20. Such attempts only demonstrate the whims and biases of the individual. If this list were not the basis of a book, I would assume that A Henry intended it as a joke. Maybe he hopes that controversy will sell more copies.

The author would not have seen the pre war aces in action (Caracciola, Rosemeyer etc.) he has to rely on eye witness accounts. No problem with that as there are plenty of reports available. Such accounts do focus on results, namely winning is what is remembered. I believe that most serious lists would place these two somewhere in the top 12.

The problem with his list is that this logic breaks down when he assesses the drivers he has seen in action. Thus he elevates to #1 a driver who never managed to win the WC, 5 places ahead of a 5 time winner, the one still holding the best percentage record ever (close to 50%).

More bizarre is the ranking at #13 for Amon, an excellent driver, but one who failed to win a single Grand Prix, over several World Champions. The next on the list not to win is Behra down in spot 48.

And so it goes, I do not feel that this list is worth serious discussion.

[BDunnell]

I am not a huge fan of such lists, especially if they go beyond the best 10 or 20. Such attempts only demonstrate the whims and biases of the individual. If this list were not the basis of a book, I would assume that A Henry intended it as a joke. Maybe he hopes that controversy will sell more copies.

And these things, which are always entirely subjective, do sell magazines and books because they are an accessible way of presenting various topics. This is why you see so many of them, just as it's why there are so many 'top 10/20/100' TV shows. People seem to like them.

[ArrowsFA1]

More bizarre is the ranking at #13 for Amon, an excellent driver, but one who failed to win a single Grand Prix, over several World Champions.
Amon was very highly regarded by his peers who were probably as amazed as anyone that Amon never won a championship GP, then again he was racing with the likes of Stewart, Clark, Gurney, Rindt, Brabham, Hulme, and Hill week in week out which must have made things tough!

As for his 'bad luck' you only need to look at his qualifying. Between Canada 1967 and France 1970 (27 races) he started outside the top 5 on only 3 occasions. Unfortunately his cars were not as reliable :dozey:

[ShiftingGears]

Amon was very highly regarded by his peers who were probably as amazed as anyone that Amon never won a championship GP, then again he was racing with the likes of Stewart, Clark, Gurney, Rindt, Brabham, Hulme, and Hill week in week out which must have made things tough!

As for his 'bad luck' you only need to look at his qualifying. Between Canada 1967 and France 1970 (27 races) he started outside the top 5 on only 3 occasions. Unfortunately his cars were not as reliable :dozey:

He was good but if he won a championship race or three he would not be as high as #13. I doubt anyone disputes that. Beltoise only won a race and he was known as an intelligent driver but he's nowhere near as high.

[Daniel]

Amon was very highly regarded by his peers who were probably as amazed as anyone that Amon never won a championship GP, then again he was racing with the likes of Stewart, Clark, Gurney, Rindt, Brabham, Hulme, and Hill week in week out which must have made things tough!

As for his 'bad luck' you only need to look at his qualifying. Between Canada 1967 and France 1970 (27 races) he started outside the top 5 on only 3 occasions. Unfortunately his cars were not as reliable :dozey:
But at the end of the day you can only give so much credit to someone who in the end didn't achieve much in terms of race wins. I get somewhat annoyed sometimes in the rally forums when Henri Toivonen is talked about as if he's up there with Loeb, Makkinen and Kankkunnen with regards to wins and world championships. Of course we must recognise talent and give credit when a career never got off the ground due to death or bad luck with cars but it can only go so far :mark:

No Jean-Pierre Jabouille in the list.......or any other list I remember seeing....and yet it could be strongly argued that he was a driver who was a major part in one of the biggest changes in F1 history.

I mean, with all due respect to somebody like Felipe Massa or Jarno Trulli, who are on that list, their 'legacy' in the sport is not exactly comparable to the man who single-handedly drove the 'Yellow Teapot' from pit-lane joke to Grand Prix victory and in doing so transformed Formula One for the next decade.

And who, let's not forget, was well in front of Rene & Gilles when they had their famous Dijon Ding-Dong.

Jabouille may not have been an incredible driver, but his achievements never seem to get the credit they actually deserve.

[jens]

If I'm going to give a small comment about the ranking, then what surprises me is that for example drivers like Heinz-Harald Frentzen and Alessandro Nannini do not exist in the list. We may discuss forever that what should their exact position be in that ranking, but they were surely good enough to exist in the Top100. I'd take them over quite several drivers against who they raced in their era and who are mentioned in that ranking.

And if current drivers are included too, then for example where is Heidfeld?

[Nurburgring]

Stirling Moss at number 1?
This list is utter BS.
Good to see that Brabham is on the list but I would have liked to see the only man who ever won a WDC and Manufacturers title in his own car at the same time, and probably the only man who ever will, a little higher up the list. In fact Brabham is probably in a league of his own. Brabham would be more likely to be number 1 instead of Moss. In fact anyone would be better at number 1 than Moss

[maxu05]

Due to all the controversy related to this list, I propose that we start a forum list, where members can vote for a top 100. This way, there will be no BS. We start with number 1, and vote for each position. I will start a thread for this, and make my #1 pick. What do you think ?

[Nurburgring]

Due to all the controversy related to this list, I propose that we start a forum list, where members can vote for a top 100. This way, there will be no BS. We start with number 1, and vote for each position. I will start a thread for this, and make my #1 pick. What do you think ?
Great idea lets make Fangio number one and me number two.
No seriously does anyone have any contacts in any area of motorsport eg. F1, DTM, World GT championship I'd really like to know

[D28]

EDIT: Yes it should. I assumed that it was shonky reporting, but the book cover does say F1. A marketing ploy, perhaps.


Has anyone actually seen a forward to the book by A. Henry himself, explaining what his list puports to measure. If his criteria does include Sports Car results, then the high rating for Chris Amon and Ricardo Rodriguez makes some sence. Both had excellent reults in races other then F1. R. Rodriguez's F1 record is 4 points out of 5 starts, and at #50 he is 2 places ahead of WC Denny Hulme. Rodriguez was a great racer and could arguably rate above Hulme, just not in a F1/Grand Prix criteria.

[CGormally]

For me, the list is a complete joke.
Mansell at #31, that's way too far down for me.
Alright, he may only have won 1 world title but he consistently raced against Prost, Senna, Piquet, etc. and beat them on quite a number of occasions.

[Garry Walker]

For me, the list is a complete joke.
Mansell at #31, that's way too far down for me.
Alright, he may only have won 1 world title but he consistently raced against Prost, Senna, Piquet, etc. and beat them on quite a number of occasions.

Most of the time he was beaten by those guys, especially in equal cars.

[AAReagles]

Rodriguez was a great racer and could arguably rate above Hulme, just not in a F1/Grand Prix criteria.

For me it's hard to tell. From what I can best recollect in his GP racing career, he didn't appear to have a good ride. He managed that S. African GP win with Cooper, and later when he suited up for BRM, the team never appeared to be on the same pace as it was during G. Hill's days with them.

He took a well deserved win at Spa 1970 (BRM), though he found little success afterwards in regards to GP racing; Zandvoort 1971 being the exception where he was the only driver to provide (eventual winner) Jacky Ickx fits while pursuing him in the rain.

[yodasarmpit]

A poor list in my opinion, most of the reasons have already been covered in this thread already so I won't bore anyone.
I always like Henry's witting, this list is by no means ordered by skill or merit, but by personal opinion of the author (which has a bias to the nearly men and British drivers).
Placing Hamilton 30th after one season and not having Schumacher in the top ten make the list seem fascicle.

[woody2goody]

Did Henry give any reasons for making Moss his number 1? 16 wins from 66 races is good but the fact that he only did 66 is enough for me to not make him number 1.

I think ithe number one position would be between Senna, Prost, M Schumacher and Fangio.

[Bezza]

I think I am going to propose a vote system for us to come up with the definitive top 10/25/50/etc drivers.

I will start a new thread for it. Everyone votes for their top 25 drivers. Points are awarded for each vote, 50 for 1st, 48 for 2nd, 46 for 3rd - and so on.

If I vote, 1 Senna, 2 Prost, 3 Mansell - Senna gets 50 points.

This way, nobody can argue with the list as you all contributed to the vote! I am going to setup the thread in the near future.

[Daniel]

This way, nobody can argue with the list

Famous last words :p

[wedge]

As voted by readers of F1 racing mag:


100. Wurz
99. Williamson
98. Purley
97. Panis
96. Laffite
95. Tambay
94. Brundle
93. Johansson
92. Lombardi
91. Fisichella
90. Salo
89. Verstappen
88. Nilsson
87. Alboreto
86. Depailler
85. Gonzales
84. Watson
83. Modena
82. Jarier
81. Hailwood
80. Vettel
79. de la Rosa
78. Sato
77. Kovalainen
76. Gardner
75. Boutsen
74. Lewis-Evans
73. Bonnier
72. Revson
71. Fagioli
70. Mass
69. Irvine
68. R Schumacher
67. Collins
66. Pironi
65. von Trips
64. Bandini
63. Stiffert
62. Regazzoni
61. Hulme.
60. Arnoux
59. Frentzen
58. Herbert
57. Nannini
56. Trulli
55. Webber
54. Rosbert
53. Hawthorn
52. Patrese
51. de Angelis
50. Kubica
49. Heidfeld
48. Pryce
47. Gurney
46. Amon
45. Scheckter
44. Montoya
43. Massa
42. Button
41. J Villeneuve
40. Coulthard
39. Brooks
38. P Rodriguez
37. Jones
36. P Hill
35. Bellof
34. Reutemann
33. Ickx
32 Farina
31. Cevert
30. Berger
29. Barrichello
28. McLaren
27. Alesi
26. Surtees
25. Rindt
24. Mar Andretti
23. Peterson
22. K Rosberg
21. E Fittipaldi
20. Hunt
19. D Hill
18. G Hill
17. J Brabham
16. Ascari
15. Hamiltom
14. Piquet sr.
13. Moss
12. Alonso
11. Mansell
10. Lauda
9. G Villeneuve
8. Hakkinen
7. Raikkonen
6. Stewart
5. Clark
4. Prost
3. Fangio
2. M Schumacher
1. Senna

[Tazio]

A list without Fangio or Nouvolari? :rolleyes:

[jso1985]

As voted by readers of F1 racing mag:


100. Wurz
99. Williamson
98. Purley
97. Panis
96. Laffite
95. Tambay
94. Brundle
93. Johansson
92. Lombardi
91. Fisichella
90. Salo
89. Verstappen
88. Nilsson
87. Alboreto
86. Depailler
85. Gonzales
84. Watson
83. Modena
82. Jarier
81. Hailwood
80. Vettel
79. de la Rosa
78. Sato
77. Kovalainen
76. Gardner
75. Boutsen
74. Lewis-Evans
73. Bonnier
72. Revson
71. Fagioli
70. Mass
69. Irvine
68. R Schumacher
67. Collins
66. Pironi
65. von Trips
64. Bandini
63. Stiffert
62. Regazzoni
61. Hulme.
60. Arnoux
59. Frentzen
58. Herbert
57. Nannini
56. Trulli
55. Webber
54. Rosbert
53. Hawthorn
52. Patrese
51. de Angelis
50. Kubica
49. Heidfeld
48. Pryce
47. Gurney
46. Amon
45. Scheckter
44. Montoya
43. Massa
42. Button
41. J Villeneuve
40. Coulthard
39. Brooks
38. P Rodriguez
37. Jones
36. P Hill
35. Bellof
34. Reutemann
33. Ickx
32 Farina
31. Cevert
30. Berger
29. Barrichello
28. McLaren
27. Alesi
26. Surtees
25. Rindt
24. Mar Andretti
23. Peterson
22. K Rosberg
21. E Fittipaldi
20. Hunt
19. D Hill
18. G Hill
17. J Brabham
16. Ascari
15. Hamiltom
14. Piquet sr.
13. Moss
12. Alonso
11. Mansell
10. Lauda
9. G Villeneuve
8. Hakkinen
7. Raikkonen
6. Stewart
5. Clark
4. Prost
3. Fangio
2. M Schumacher
1. Senna

much better than the other list! and this wasn't done by "experts"

still some observations:
De La Rosa 79? :crazy:
and current drivers get over-rated, if Alonso and Raikkonen would retire now, their achievements would put them around 25-20 in my list.
Hamilton hasn't achieved much yet to be 15
I doubt Barrichello or Button will be on anybody's list once they retire.
and what the hell? why Sato is even there?

[Tazio]

A list without Fangio or Nouvolari? :rolleyes:
whoops I overlooked #3Fangio where is Nouvolari!
This list is as bad as the first one! :down:

[jens]

:laugh: @the readers' list.

Current drivers are always overrated in comparison to the past drivers. What further back we go in the time, that more underrated the drivers are. The list includes hardly over 10 drivers, who were racing in the 50's.

But on the other hand - we really shouldn't expect much from a readers' list, among who there are certainly those, who haven't explored the history of F1 thoroughly, and those, who didn't create the list after serious analysis, but more for fun.

[Daniel]

whoops I overlooked #3Fangio where is Nouvolari!
This list is as bad as the first one! :down:

LOL :D Yes of course Sato would whoop Tazio.

NOT

Opinions are like......

[ShiftingGears]

94. Brundle

92. Lombardi



...

IMO Clark and Schumacher should be in the top 3 of any of these lists. Also, good move by putting Raikkonen ahead of Hakkinen.

[ShiftingGears]

55. Webber
54. Rosberg

Hang on, I'm seeing a few errors here... :p :

[Garry Walker]

As voted by readers of F1 racing mag:


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Hamilton 15th, ahead of Ascari, Rosberg, Fittipaldi and Brabham is just too funny.
Alesi is way too high. So are Räikkönen and Gilles

The whole list is a joke, a complete joke.

Alex Wurz?????????????????????????????????????????????? ?

Yet another list with no mention of Jabouille. Not saying he was an awesome driver, but he did develop the Renault from a teapot to an F1 winner.

Wurz, in comparison, has done jack.

100. Wurz

98. Purley
97. Panis

95. Tambay
94. Brundle
93. Johansson
92. Lombardi
91. Fisichella
90. Salo
89. Verstappen

83. Modena
82. Jarier

80. Vettel
79. de la Rosa
78. Sato
77. Kovalainen

75. Boutsen

56. Trulli
55. Webber

50. Kubica
49. Heidfeld

43. Massa
42. Button

None of them are anywhere near a Top-100 rating.

[BDunnell]

I agree, and could go on. I mean, Damon Hill higher than Mario Andretti? Give me a break! And then there's the inclusion of Stuart Lewis-Evans and Roger Williamson, who never got to show anything like their full potential.

[wedge]

Don't suppose anyone knew the voting procedure in F1 Racing?

[BDunnell]

Don't suppose anyone knew the voting procedure in F1 Racing?

By the look of it, you were largely disqualified if you'd been watching F1 for longer than five minutes. ;)

[D-Type]

Let's look at things another way:

Including Indianapolis and shared wins, the number of drivers who have won a World championship race is 98.
Add Chris Amon as the generally recognised as the best non-winner.
That leaves one place.

Nominations please.

[Melqui]

I disagree strongly with some positions on that list.. But oh well, its your list :)

[Steve]

first of all:

Ayrton Senna should be 1st. I dont even have to explain why.

Lewis hamilton shouldnt even be on the list. Its only his second year of racing, he's not exprienced enough and he's a prick.

David Coulthard should be much higher than that, at least in the top 30.

[jens]

David Coulthard should be much higher than that, at least in the top 30.


In that case Trulli, Barrichello, Heidfeld, Webber, R. Schumacher, etc guys should be in Top30 too. :p :

[ioan]

first of all:

Ayrton Senna should be 1st. I dont even have to explain why.

Lewis hamilton shouldnt even be on the list. Its only his second year of racing, he's not exprienced enough and he's a prick.

David Coulthard should be much higher than that, at least in the top 30.

I agree with the Lewis part, might also stretch it for DC, but to put Senna 1st, before Fangio, Schumacher, and Prost, I don't know. Maybe you could explain the reasons.

As voted by readers of F1 racing mag:


10. Lauda
9. G Villeneuve
8. Hakkinen
7. Raikkonen


How the feck can anybody with half a brain put a three-time world champion and race-winner in a variety of different cars (Ferrari 312, Brabham fan-car, ground-effect Mclaren & Turbo flat-bodied Mclaren) who was second-to-none in terms of car development, who came back from near-death to finish fourth in a GP just six-weeks later and who won his third title after coming out of retirement behind those other three?

[ioan]

I think you were optimist when talking about the brain size! ;)

[llgc8080]

I agree with the Lewis part, might also stretch it for DC, but to put Senna 1st, before Fangio, Schumacher, and Prost, I don't know. Maybe you could explain the reasons.

Agree.
Senna would might the best, same as Clark. Tragedy don't let go on...

Schummy and Fangio are on top.

[llgc8080]

whoops I overlooked #3Fangio where is Nouvolari!
This list is as bad as the first one! :down:

Tazio is probably the best race driver EVER!