Why can't NASCAR run in the rain? [Archive]

woody2goody

27th February 2008, 07:46

Following this weekend's delayed race in Califonia, a thought came to me:

Why can't NASCAR develop specialist wet tyres for racing on ovals? I understand that it could be problematic, but if there is a specific reason why they can't, will someone tell me please.

It frustrates me because they could have got both the Cup race and the N/wide race done on Sunday if they could run wet tyres. And I was going to watch the N/wide race until I found that it had been postponed :(

JovialJooles

27th February 2008, 09:37

The main problem on Sunday was with the weepers. You couldn't run on a dry track (with a few small wet patches) in wet tyres, they would get eaten up pretty quickly.

As far as running in the wet is concerned, I'm not sure I would want to run in a pack of cars nose to tail at 200mph with my vision obscured by the spray from the wet tyres and the rain. The track would be greasy from the rain, so the cars would be sliding all over the place too...

Plus there is a very hard concrete wall to run into, not a nice gravel trap or a paved run off area! :eek:

Lee Roy

27th February 2008, 10:53

What Jooles said.

colinspooky

27th February 2008, 11:36

RaceFanStan

27th February 2008, 13:06

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g202/gr8link/sign/heh/fn.jpg

Racin' Rob

27th February 2008, 17:05

With the weight of the cars and with the speeds these cars travel and the G and centrifugal forces they have in the turns required them to have an extremely large amount of grip. When any type of dampness is added it will cause the tires to lose grip and therefore cause the car to crash.

This dampness doesn't even need to be water. Many times when the temperature is high and the track temperature is at extreme levels it becomes slick by melting asphalt. This has cause many a car to spin. I don't believe there is a tire in the world that could keep the grip required of these cars in the turns even at half the speed they travel, let alone the 200 mph they are going at the superspeedways. If a tire could be manufactured it would probably have a tread width of at least 2 or 3 feet and that would be pretty much useless in a stock car.

Regards,

Tomski

27th February 2008, 17:07

Didn't NASCAR try wet running in Japan a number of years ago. I remember seeing cars fitted with wipers.

muggle not

27th February 2008, 17:13

It was explained on the TV telecast Monday why they don't run on rain tires. One reason was that with the car weight they would be changing tires ever 6 laps due to the wear.

JasonD

27th February 2008, 17:22

What about the road courses? Have they ever run them in the wet?

Tomski

27th February 2008, 17:26

Who says NASCAR doesn't run in the rain!!

http://www.autoracing1.com/images/2001/nascar/martinrain.JPG

harvick#1

27th February 2008, 17:40

What about the road courses? Have they ever run them in the wet?

goodyear stopped making rain tires :mark:

Racin' Rob

27th February 2008, 18:05

This was a road course and not an oval. The tires used here was not made with a templated tread, but were had carved. I believe the first place they were used was in one of the exhibition races in Japan back in the mid to late 90's. I remember one year they did run in the rain at the Glen but not sure if it was during the actual cup race or not.

You can't compare a road course to ovals in this matter because the speeds are so much lower. Look at the Watkins Glen Qualifying record for dry condiutions: 124.580mph.

Lee Roy

27th February 2008, 18:42

I believe the first place they were used was in one of the exhibition races in Japan back in the mid to late 90's.

It was. At the Suzuka road course. That's where the picture of Mark Martin's car is from.

I remember one year they did run in the rain at the Glen but not sure if it was during the actual cup race or not.

I don't recall NASCAR ever running in the rain at the Glen (racing or qualilfying). If they did, I would think it would have been some kind of a test.

I know that they used to say that Goodyear had a trailer load of rain tires at the Glen. But we never actually saw them, and I haven't heard them mentioned for several years now.

BenRoethig

27th February 2008, 18:42

harvick#1

27th February 2008, 19:03

It was. At the Suzuka road course. That's where the picture of Mark Martin's car is from.

I don't recall NASCAR ever running in the rain at the Glen (racing or qualilfying). If they did, I would think it would have been some kind of a test.

I know that they used to say that Goodyear had a trailer load of rain tires at the Glen. But we never actually saw them, and I haven't heard them mentioned for several years now.

that pic is from WG from 2000. I could've sworn they rane the road course in 96 and 97 and went to an oval in 98 (motegi I believe)

I remember they practiced in the rain, but that was it.

and I thought the year before, the Trucks either raced in the rain, or just practiced also

Abo

27th February 2008, 20:37

As far as running in the wet is concerned, I'm not sure I would want to run in a pack of cars nose to tail at 200mph with my vision obscured by the spray from the wet tyres and the rain. The track would be greasy from the rain, so the cars would be sliding all over the place too...

Trust me, it's bonkers enough running in a pack around Rockingham in the wet at 125-130mph in our little trucks. And being a spotter is a nightmare, when they're over the far side of the track with all the spray you're definately worried about the calls you are making. I've done it what, four times since I started being Wilky's spotter five years ago and it's not fun.

I know the truck drivers complained about the windscreen fogging. Wilky said that at one point he had a strip about two inches which he could see throught and was driving by looking at the top of the catch fence, relying almost completely on my calls not to hit anything! Another driver had a rag on a stick to wipe the fog away...

In a Sprint Cup car? Suicide IMHO.

Lee Roy

27th February 2008, 22:02

that pic is from WG from 2000. I could've sworn they rane the road course in 96 and 97 and went to an oval in 98 (motegi I believe)

I think they ran the road course (Suzuka) the first year, and then Motegi the next two. But I could be wrong. Can't find anything anywhere on it.

Nick Brad

27th February 2008, 23:41

From a spotter's POV, (which I've been for the last 3 years,) running in the rain is one of the worst things imaginable. The pickups in the UK run at rockingham in the wet with tyres designed for the conditions and I hate it. Vision is greatly restricted due to the spray and if there's another guy running with the same base colour as your driver and they get close, it get's really hard to work out which is which until they come back to you. How are you supposed to direct a guy if you can't be 100% sure which one he is?

These guys only reach speeds up to 140mph, you add another 40pmh on top and you're asking for someone to be killed.

call_me_andrew

28th February 2008, 04:35

Who says NASCAR doesn't run in the rain!!

http://www.autoracing1.com/images/2001/nascar/martinrain.JPG

Lee Roy you fool! That picture is clearly from Watkins Glen, not Suzuka. First, notice that's a 2000 Ford Taurus. If it was Suzuka, it would be a 1998 Taurus or a 1997 Thunderbird. Second, notice the blue Armco barrier at the top of the picture. The only two tracks that have blue Armco barriers are Daytona and Watkins Glen.

In 2000 a qualifying session was rained out at Watkins Glen, and that was turned into a practise session.

Suzuka used multi-car qualifying in the rain, but the race was dry.

Rain tires are only brought to Nationwide Series road course races at Mexico City and Montreal since those tracks can't support rain dates. And these are the very tires Goodyear made in the 90's. They have greatly exceeded their shelflife, and I do not envy the poor ******* that has to use them first.

Here's a picture from a Nationwide race at Watkins Glen from a year or two ago. If you look at the bottom of the windshield over the driver's side of the cowl, you'll see a windshield wiper mount.

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/71636380.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF193875DCB1DD8387ABB12A187BE2FB4E79D A40A659CEC4C8CB6

I think rain tires could work at Daytona or Talladega since those tracks put so little mechanical demand on the tires. It might be possible to make it work at a short track. But a track like California puts way too much stress on tires to use them safely. Even IndyCars don't use rain tires on ovals.

http://www.autoracing1.com/images/2000/NASCAR/gy1_800.jpg

Abo

28th February 2008, 06:14

These guys only reach speeds up to 140mph

Bit slower in the wet Nick, the rain tyres have a smaller rolling radius than the oval slicks ;)

Nick Brad

28th February 2008, 10:06

Bit slower in the wet Nick, the rain tyres have a smaller rolling radius than the oval slicks ;)

Very true, although I was comparing dry speeds, I have no idea what the speeds would be if NASCAR attempted to run in the wet.

Lee Roy

28th February 2008, 17:10

Lee Roy you fool! That picture is clearly from Watkins Glen, not Suzuka. First, notice that's a 2000 Ford Taurus. If it was Suzuka, it would be a 1998 Taurus or a 1997 Thunderbird. Second, notice the blue Armco barrier at the top of the picture. The only two tracks that have blue Armco barriers are Daytona and Watkins Glen.

In 2000 a qualifying session was rained out at Watkins Glen, and that was turned into a practise session.

Suzuka used multi-car qualifying in the rain, but the race was dry.

Well, I guess that I've been told. :D

Thanks

Racin' Rob

28th February 2008, 21:44

Yes Lee Roy, you fool! :D

ms0362

4th March 2008, 18:28

Treaded tires always turning left would just burn up. It would only work on road courses. Even if they could race, it would be a mess.

Chaparral66

5th March 2008, 01:46

Treaded tires always turning left would just burn up. It would only work on road courses. Even if they could race, it would be a mess.

I believe that is NASCAR's current policy. They will run on roadcourses like Watkins Glen and Infinion in the rain, but not on ovals. I think the only exception to that might be Pocono, which many teams treat like a roadcourse, but then the speeds on the straights are of a nature I think they would like to avoid.

Lee Roy

5th March 2008, 10:53

I believe that is NASCAR's current policy. They will run on roadcourses like Watkins Glen and Infinion in the rain, but not on ovals.

They won't run on road courses in the rain.

RaceFanStan

5th March 2008, 13:13

NASCAR does NOT run ANY races in the rain.
Rain ends a NASCAR race if they are past 1/2 way & the rain isn't expected to stop.
If they aren't past 1/2 way & the rain doesn't stop, the race resumes on a dry day.

woody2goody

5th March 2008, 19:25

I know it would be difficult on an oval, but I just wondered whether or not it would be possible. It would be pretty dangerous but it would be interesting to see who is good in those conditions out of the Cup drivers.

Chaparral66

6th March 2008, 01:33

They won't run on road courses in the rain.

I keep hearing that NASCAR is preapared along with Goodyear to race on a roadcourse in the rain. I could be wrong, but does anybody know what the NASCAR rule book says about that?

Lee Roy

6th March 2008, 10:53

I keep hearing that NASCAR is preapared along with Goodyear to race on a roadcourse in the rain.

For a couple of years they discussed racing in the rain, but haven't heard anything about it for a while now. They used to have the teams set up the cars with a windsheild wiper and other things for rain, but they've stopped doing that.

I could be wrong, but does anybody know what the NASCAR rule book says about that?

You have to be in NASCAR to get a rule book.

call_me_andrew

6th March 2008, 23:46

I keep hearing that NASCAR is preapared along with Goodyear to race on a roadcourse in the rain. I could be wrong, but does anybody know what the NASCAR rule book says about that?

Nationwide: Yes
Everything else: No

For a couple of years they discussed racing in the rain, but haven't heard anything about it for a while now. They used to have the teams set up the cars with a windsheild wiper and other things for rain, but they've stopped doing that.

Once more to the photographic evidence.

I've highlighted the windshield wiper mounts with yellow circles.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/montoyamexico.jpg

call_me_andrew

7th March 2008, 00:04

And the one I tried to post hilighted in red.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m315/mustang6172/buschwatkins.jpg

Lee Roy

8th March 2008, 13:13

Thanks c_m_a. You are wealth of correct information. I was thinking primarily of Cup cars racing in the rain, but you are correct that NASCAR continues to be prepared to race in the rain.

I imagine for the Nationwide series they don't want to disappoint the folks in Mexico City and Montreal and don't want to have to try to return at a later date, that probably wouldn't be available.

tassiedevilAB

11th March 2008, 01:45

It was. At the Suzuka road course. That's where the picture of Mark Martin's car is from.

I don't recall NASCAR ever running in the rain at the Glen (racing or qualilfying). If they did, I would think it would have been some kind of a test.

I know that they used to say that Goodyear had a trailer load of rain tires at the Glen. But we never actually saw them, and I haven't heard them mentioned for several years now.

If these drivers can not control the cars in the dry how do you think they will be able to control them in the wet & on an oval, .....that is danger with a big D

gary_580

11th March 2008, 13:00

and talk about boring to watch - peering through clouds of spray.

Cars would need 200mph wipers, lights, plus of course a selection of wet tyres to cope with changing conditions, and what if some of the track is wet and some dry.

No, this is a fine weather sport - let's stick with that

After the Atlanta race im wondering if Nascar is just becoming boring to watch. The Tyres that Goodyear provided were too hard which killed the side by side racing we normally see at Atlanta

Aussie12

21st March 2008, 08:00

Rain + Talladega = huge mistake.

call_me_andrew

21st March 2008, 19:23

Rain + Talladega = huge mistake.

I disagree. If everyone is on rain tires with reduced traction, the pack would break up and it would look like a pre-plate race.

BenRoethig

21st March 2008, 19:26

No, it would look like a super big one with any car going over interstate speeds hitting the wall. They'd have to declare the pace car as the winner.

Lee Roy

21st March 2008, 19:45

No, it would look like a super big one with any car going over interstate speeds hitting the wall. They'd have to declare the pace car as the winner.

yep.

harvick#1

21st March 2008, 20:43

No, it would look like a super big one with any car going over interstate speeds hitting the wall. They'd have to declare the pace car as the winner.

a Bodine winning a Cup race :mark: oh dear :dozey:

BenRoethig

22nd March 2008, 20:17

Well, that was about how Brett got his cup win.

Lee Roy

12th April 2008, 12:56

Found this at Jayski

Goodyear still has rain tires: Rain (tires) won't go away: Fans looking for something different during the Nationwide Series events in Mexico City and Canada should pray for rain. Greg Stucker, Goodyear Racing's director of race tire sales, said the manufacturer has not abandoned its rain-tire program. "We've had it for road-racing since the mid-1990s," Stucker reminded. "It's just never happened that NASCAR wanted to utilize it in a race condition. But we have had it available and conducted race sessions with it. And we'll continue to have it available. If you look at the Nationwide Series now, they go to Mexico City and to Canada. We don't have a lot of versatility in our dates there. If we get rain, we want to make sure we can put on a show for those folks."(Fort Worth Star Telegram)(4-11-2008)

Delenn

13th April 2008, 21:30

call_me_andrew

13th April 2008, 23:06

Yeah, but they're only doing it for one turn. That's nothing new. The challenge is maintaining a constant high speed through the rain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swsX49_zOGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhP0KgIq7RQ

call_me_andrew

17th April 2008, 05:28

Rain is in the forecast all weekend for Mexico City!

Jonesi

17th April 2008, 10:45

Rain is in the forecast all weekend for Mexico City!

On yesterday's NascarNow Boris Said was on talking about rain tires. He stated they are the same batch that was last used in Japan (9? years ago). He said they won't make the Cup drivers use them, but would probably made the NW drivers use them.

Haulin'AssAndTurnin Left

17th April 2008, 10:52

I have just returned from Rockingham Speedway (the one in the UK), where I saw the British Touring Car drivers two wide (door-handle to door-handle) around turn 1 of the oval in a rainstorm. It can be done.

Going round the corner in a lightweight fwd 4-banger with 250hp isnt the same as going round the same corner in a 850hp 3000lb rwd stock car.

call_me_andrew

17th April 2008, 23:23

On yesterday's NascarNow Boris Said was on talking about rain tires. He stated they are the same batch that was last used in Japan (9? years ago). He said they won't make the Cup drivers use them, but would probably made the NW drivers use them.

I think we got all that from Lee Roy's Jayski article.

And those Japan races were more like 10-11 years ago.