Done Deal

[Z-man]

I feel sad...

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/report-champ-car-indycar-deal-done/

[Cart750hp]

Feel sad? You should be thankful it's over!

[BobGarage]

its about time.

they have draw out this years mergification talks for far too long! (from a fans point of view). the uncertanty was a pain in the arse.

roll on 2008.

[ShiftingGears]

The bittersweet end. Finally.

[Mark]

It sounds done but it's still only 'reports'. Until I see a press release on the IRL and ChampCar websites, I'm not assuming anything.

[F1boat]

At last, it' over. I hope that the new Indy Car series will become more popular and return at least the glory of the late nineties.
I hope that this is not fabricated.

[Mark]

There are still reports elsewhere that merger talks are 'stalled' so I wouldn't go jumping around just yet.

[F1boat]

I don't think that CC can continue alone anymore, so it'll be great if there is some kind of unification and not destruction.

[tbyars]

There are still reports elsewhere that merger talks are 'stalled' so I wouldn't go jumping around just yet.

Normally, I'd agree with you, Mark. but there are far too many direct quotes in that article to ignore.

When paul Tracy, of all people, is coming to Indy for a seat fitting, I'd say the fat lady has sung. Frankly, regardless of the outcome, I ddn't expect Forsythe to come along.

[BobGarage]

I don't think that CC can continue alone anymore, so it'll be great if there is some kind of unification and not destruction.

not just CC. neither side can continue alone any more and both sets of management realise that.

both sides have low car counts for this year. both would struggle with grids the intire season. TG would struggle to get 33 for the 500. That is why TG has been more receptive this year than in previous years to getting this done.

[mikiec]

It sounds done but it's still only 'reports'. Until I see a press release on the IRL and ChampCar websites, I'm not assuming anything.

I think I'll be waiting for the press release/conference confirming it before I open the bubbly, but I think I'll get the ice ready just in case. :)

[Mark]

Normally, I'd agree with you, Mark. but there are far too many direct quotes in that article to ignore.


I'm 99% certain it's true, however we've had so many false dawns over the years I'm waiting until there is something written in stone!

[millencolin]

Its Robin Miller... he hasn't been the most 'reliable' reporter in recent times...

although i hope its true, im not popping the merger beer yet...

[Blancvino]

Merger? This not a merger. This is uncontested victory for the grandson.

There is nothing to be happy about. This is Champcar screwing up and cutting their losses.

Very sad!

No matter what happens, it's Game-Set-Match.

[Alfa Fan]

What it means is that instead of Champ Car struggling to field 14 and IndyCar 18, we can now have a combined grid in the mid-20s! Surely a good thing!

[Claus Hansen]

A shame about the 3 european races, not being included !

But still dont think this solve the problems, team still dont have sponsors, and only one chassis, and one enigne, in a years time we only have the same problem again...

This is like people say, pea in your pans, and be warm for a while...

Know the need to convince another manufactor to come in, in it should be sooner rahter than later !

[electron]

Claus, we may agree that a situation with only one AOWR entity with Indy, Long Beach, Surfers fx in place is a much more attractive place for future sponsors and tech companies (read engines, chassis) to be lured to?

it won't get any better to start again.

anything that does that is fine for me. let's go racing.

[ArrowsFA1]

Merger? This not a merger. This is uncontested victory for the grandson.
True or not, isn't the big picture the important thing? Surely what's important is that this is a new beginning for OWR in the US.

The Split has almost destroyed OWR. With a solution seemingly at hand people can either spend time raking over the ashes of how things were, or look forward to what they could be in a unified series.

[Andrewmcm]

Well if it is true I'll be installing some cable/satellite system in my flat that can pick up Sky Sports. I'll be happy to spend good money to watch a unified Indycar Series.

[V12]

Well if it is true I'll be installing some cable/satellite system in my flat that can pick up Sky Sports. I'll be happy to spend good money to watch a unified Indycar Series.

Ditto - Will definitely be money well spent. And if it all goes through I might start posting here again more often once we have cars, races, engines, drivers and so on to talk about, rather than bloody politics :)

[electron]

hear, hear!!!!

[jwhite9185]

Id rather be watching Champ Car but if the IRL is all i can get then ill guess ill have to make do with that.

As far as i view it, it will be the IRL with Champ Car teams/drivers competing. The only way it will be like Champ Car is if they bring back the turbos and gets a decent looking car - even the old Dallara looks better than the latest thing.

[Chris R]

I'll wait for the official press release - but I'm chilling down the bubbly..... At least I can get excited about my hobby again!! :D

[champcarray]

I'll mourn when it's official. My wife and I were making plans for Mt. Tremblant this summer so we could introduce our 8 year old to the glorious sound of turbo Cosworths...

[indycool]

I'm sure that some people or entities would get some or give some with a melding of the two series, and TG's quote in there would indicate that the fat lady is headed toward the microphone as far as the deal being done is concerned, but overall, the SPORT would win with this.

[Rex Monaco]

If true, this is great news for AOWR. If it's not true, it looks like the CCWS lost the PR battle and is all but finished anyway. So this unification/merger/hostile takeover will now happen regardless of what CC does.

I guess it's time to print some "TG Still Sucks" t-shirts and head down to LB for a business permit!

[indycool]

Whatever floats your boat, Rex, and I suppose a lot of folks at CW feel the same way although I haven't lurked over there this morning. Just as a thought, I think it would bring to an end the focus on who's running each series and add more focus to the drivers, teams, tracks and races. Like I said earlier, with a unified series, the SPORT wins.

[Blancvino]

True or not, isn't the big picture the important thing? Surely what's important is that this is a new beginning for OWR in the US.

The Split has almost destroyed OWR. With a solution seemingly at hand people can either spend time raking over the ashes of how things were, or look forward to what they could be in a unified series.


Sorry, but not in my view. Open wheel racing in America dies for me the day the merger (capitulation) happens. I did not stick with Champcar to see it fold and become the series I have fundamental leadership issues with. My principals cannot allow me to fall in line and support the [fill in the blank] series.

In my view, this whole thing is a complete cock up and I see no value in it.

[Rex Monaco]

Whatever floats your boat, Rex, and I suppose a lot of folks at CW feel the same way although I haven't lurked over there this morning.

It won't float my boat, but there's probably enough people who feel the same way that it would pay for my mooring fees in the fish bowl!

[pvtjoker]

Sorry, but not in my view. Open wheel racing in America dies for me the day the merger (capitulation) happens. I did not stick with Champcar to see it fold and become the series I have fundamental leadership issues with. My principals cannot allow me to fall in line and support the [fill in the blank] series.

In my view, this whole thing is a complete cock up and I see no value in it.

I understand you're admiration for CC but the series is all but dead. I figure you'll come around once the season starts but if not, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

[Blancvino]

I'm sure that some people or entities would get some or give some with a melding of the two series, and TG's quote in there would indicate that the fat lady is headed toward the microphone as far as the deal being done is concerned, but overall, the SPORT would win with this.


With all due respect, I am sure you would not say the same if it was going the other way.

[Blancvino]

I understand you're admiration for CC but the series is all but dead. I figure you'll come around once the season starts but if not, don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Pretty much an uncalled for and schmuck door comment.

[Rex Monaco]

With all due respect, I am sure you would not say the same if it was going the other way.

I hate TG as much as the next guy for the damage he did to AOWR. But at some point the war must end and the rebuilding must begin.

And we can count the days before the teams approach TG once the series is successful and ask him for a cut or they form their own league.

Karma is indeed a wonderful thing, if you believe in that fairies and goblins stuff.

[indycool]

Blancvino, does the sport not win with a unified series, better grids, better competition, everybody at Indy, a better target for sponsors and TV viewers and better positioned for growth as one?

I certainly understand there's been a lot of TG hating over the last 12 years among CART/CC supporters, and to each their own, but I'm not going to quit watching baseball because Bud Selig is the commissioner, nor throw away my fall football Sundays because Roger Goodell is the commissioner, even if I think either one of them are an idiot. Nor did I not watch CC because I can't stand Gentilozzi.

You COULD look at it as, with the way it shakes out, CC is getting all those big IRL teams BACK on the grid with unification.

[OutRun]

What I always liked about American open wheel racing was the different chassis, engine and tire combinations. I wasn't watching what the IRL or CHAMP series had to offer before and I probably wont start watching now. I'm not interested in watching spec racing.

[nigelred5]

I just wish it involved more than what, a rumoured 3, maybe 4 CCWS races. I can't watch places like Chicagoland and Kentucky. I hope we'll see an eventual adjustment to incorporate more tracks and hopefully EQUIPMENT from the CCWS schedule. Like most here, I just despise the look of the Dallara. Why can't we just have a season or two of an equivalency formula, or better, DP01 for the twisties and small ovals and the Dallara for the big ovals. a two year equivalency would be more fair for everyone IMHO. The IRL teams would quit bitching about the CCWS teams being given cars and neither would have to learn a new car.

[nanders]

If true, this is great news for AOWR. If it's not true, it looks like the CCWS lost the PR battle and is all but finished anyway. So this unification/merger/hostile takeover will now happen regardless of what CC does.

I guess it's time to print some "TG Still Sucks" t-shirts and head down to LB for a business permit!

Don't give up on hate.

[garyshell]

My quick $.02,

To those who see this as a "win" for "...king George", it may be that on the surface but when you dig down it is NOT a win for the "vision" (albeit myopic) that he originally laid out in 1996. We can take some solace in that fact as we move on...

Gary

[Fangio]

My quick $.02,

To those who see this as a "win" for "...king George", it may be that on the surface but when you dig down it is NOT a win for the "vision" (albeit myopic) that he originally laid out in 1996. We can take some solace in that fact as we move on...

Gary

+1

The unspoken vision to to take over CART is a reality, now he needs to go "fix" the rest of the sport.
He can start with the formula, thank you very much.

[Roninho]

With all due respect, I am sure you would not say the same if it was going the other way.
The problem with this is that it's almost impossible that an a-ow serie without the indy500 would survive and prosper when at the same time the serie which includes the indy500 would go bankrupt. So the situation in which TG was forced to end his serie and join champcar as a promoter of only a couple of races (as appears to be the situation in the current deal) would simply almost not be possible.

So the only way it could have gone 'the other way' would be if TG sold IMS. And yes i do indeed believe that indycool would not say the same thing if KK, Forsythe and Gentilozzi would buy ims, simply because the amigo's have not been succesfull at all with their serie and have shown no respect and understanding of the history of a-ow (bye bye ovals and the USA). Supporting the amigo's based on the past 5 years would indeed be a major shift of what the irl and indy stands for, and unless they showed results that suggested otherwise Indycool would remain a very vocal critic. Which i would understand.

[Latka Gravitz]

Curt Cavin's Story:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080219/SPORTS0107/802190444

[table]

Look, I bought tickets for Laguna Seca, so I am SOL, but I'm still happy. This needs to happen. I expect a lot will change over the next couple of seasons.

[cartpix]

I had hoped that CC would have made it & the IRL had gotten to the point where TG would have thrown in the towel & added Indy to the CC schedule. That didn't happen. I'm glad the split is over, I just hope it hasn't gotten to the point where even a unified series can't survive. The King is dead, long live the ***king (with all due respect to Gary).

Someone should send grief counslers over to CCF.

Jeff

[McLovin]

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2006/0726/box_a_foreman_275.jpg

"Down Goes Frazier! Down Goes Frazier! Down Goes Frazier!"

http://www.trackforum.com/forums/images/smileys3/fatlady_smiley.gif

[SoCalPVguy]

Have you ever heard to the theory that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts ? (The Beatles for example). That is what a combined AOWR series will be.

Even at one step back (i.e. Dallaras, hondas); a single AOWR series is now poised to take two steps forward in the upcoming years

Now Dorothy, click your heels twice and chant there's no place like Home(stead).

[tbyars]

Sorry, but not in my view. Open wheel racing in America dies for me the day the merger (capitulation) happens. I did not stick with Champcar to see it fold and become the series I have fundamental leadership issues with. My principals cannot allow me to fall in line and support the [fill in the blank] series.

In my view, this whole thing is a complete cock up and I see no value in it.

Blancvino, while you may not like the comment joker made, I think all of us have known for the past 12 years that, once the split ended (and it WAS going to end eventually), there would be some that were such inflexible diehards that they wouldn't come along.

I've read your posts in the past, which have often been insightful. I consider you a true race fan. I think it will be unfortunate that some, like you, can't move on. You hold an irrational hatred for a man you have probably never met, and it colors your outlook.

Beginning now, AOWR is moving forward again. Some people will make the decision that they don't want to move forward with it, and that is their choice. Fortunately, it's a choice that gives you the luxury of changing your mind at any time, and that is good.

If you don't, well, that is your business, too. And in that case, whether you like it or not, joker's comment is appropriate. After all, it's all your decision, but just be aware that your decision isn't going to stop the sport from moving forward in the least. It only hurts you.

You'll just have to decide if your hate is more important than the entertainment you can get from watching the racing. Balancing the emotion of hate against a relatively minor sports controversy...well, that's just a no-brainer in my book.

[Ruben Barrios]

^^^ Well said Tybars...

Like I have said before... you can't keep a series running on just hate...

My hate has evaporated with every missed step by Champcar... I am cold and in need for competition... Like a loved once fight with cancer, even though our loved one died, I am relieved it is over and I can move on...

[garyshell]

I've read your posts in the past, which have often been insightful. I consider you a true race fan. I think it will be unfortunate that some, like you, can't move on. You hold an irrational hatred for a man you have probably never met, and it colors your outlook.

There is nothing irrational about the hatred for his actions, nothing at all! We didn't need to meet any infamous despot in order to hate their actions did we? Now don't get me wrong I am in no way trying to equate "...king George" to any infamous despot. I am just trying to illustrate a point. Your supposition that we must take tea with someone before we can hate them is ridiculous at face value.

Now having said that, I also think as I said in my "What DO I hate" thread that one can still harbor that hate for the individual and move on to embrace the rest of what the merged series will represent. I for one will never, ever under any circumstances forgive "...king George" for what he did. And given an opportunity to do so I would tell that to him to his face. But I am NOT going to allow my disdain for him to cloud my feelings for the rest of the people associated with a merged series. This whole thing is bigger than "...king George" despite what HE might think.


Balancing the emotion of hate against a relatively minor sports controversy...

I would hardly call what has happened over the past 13 years a "minor sports contorversy". Those 13 years have changed, no tarnished, the face of AOWR. It's a lot more than a minor controversy.

Gary

[BenRoethig]

Have you ever heard to the theory that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts ? (The Beatles for example). That is what a combined AOWR series will be.

Even at one step back (i.e. Dallaras, hondas); a single AOWR series is now poised to take two steps forward in the upcoming years

Now Dorothy, click your heels twice and chant there's no place like Home(stead).

I remember the good old days. Race attendance was great, 27 cars in every race, and if you were in the series people knew who you were. The Ones that don't want this are the ones who can't stomach anything other than a formula series. They would rather have North American open wheel racing die out rather it not conform to them.

Well, there should be a racing series for them, but not at the expense of our brand of open wheel racing. It should be a North American formula three equivalent feeder series and it should be run saturday afternoons as not to conflict with major series. The fan base is small, but it should be catered to.

[beachbum]

Like many open wheel race fans, I will be relieved when this mess is over, assuming it is over. It is time to move on. But I am not cheering or ranting.

This merger, death, or whatever it is called will have some winners, and some losers. I doubt anyone in the IRL will mourn the loss of PG, but Curt Cavin's article points out a sad state of affairs in Champ Car. If many of the teams can't afford to make the switch even with apparent free cars and engines, how were they going to survive another year in Champ Car? Suddenly teams that were slated to run a full season in CCWS can't run in the IRL because of lack of sponsorship? Just how much funding was going under the table to keep teams afloat in CCWS?

[anthonyvop]

Have you ever heard to the theory that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts ? (The Beatles for example). That is what a combined AOWR series will be.

Even at one step back (i.e. Dallaras, hondas); a single AOWR series is now poised to take two steps forward in the upcoming years

Now Dorothy, click your heels twice and chant there's no place like Home(stead).
More than one step.

Ovals are a giant leap back

The fact that they secretly gave preferential treatment(Power Steering) to a certain driver as well as a rule advantage(Weight) is a Carl Lewis, Olympic Style Broad Jump Back.

So we get older and slower cars and weaker Motors.

This isn't the Beatles getting back together.....It is the Back Street Boys!

[gofastandwynn]

More than one step.

Ovals are a giant leap back

The fact that they secretly gave preferential treatment(Power Steering) to a certain driver as well as a rule advantage(Weight) is a Carl Lewis, Olympic Style Broad Jump Back.

So we get older and slower cars and weaker Motors.

This isn't the Beatles getting back together.....It is the Back Street Boys!

:wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

[IMSA_Dude]

Look, I bought tickets for Laguna Seca, so I am SOL, but I'm still happy. This needs to happen. I expect a lot will change over the next couple of seasons.
SOL? GrandAm will be there! Hahahahahaha!

[IMSA_Dude]

I remember the good old days. Race attendance was great, 27 cars in every race, and if you were in the series people knew who you were. The Ones that don't want this are the ones who can't stomach anything other than a formula series. They would rather have North American open wheel racing die out rather it not conform to them.If AOWR died out *and* made the US road racing/sports car series great there would be happy people, but they (GrandAm/SCCAPro/IMSA-ALMS) are too busy shooting each other in the feet for that to happen...

[hacker-pschorr]

They better keep Road America!!!! I have a season ticket damn it. If not, maybe ALMS can do a 24 hour enduro. :)

I would like to see AJ Foyt's response.

[NY2IA]

I was planning my annual trip to Road America for the Champ Car Race. How soon will we know the 2008 schedule for the merger/IRL season? What will happen to the Toyota Atlantic series? Will they race on the same schedule at Champ Car? Will they try to fill in the previous Champ Car empty spots? Lots of questions....any answers?
Thanks!

[Rex Monaco]

Don't give up on hate.

It's not called hate. It's called legacy. It'll take decades to rebuild what TG broke.

[Blancvino]

Blancvino, while you may not like the comment joker made, I think all of us have known for the past 12 years that, once the split ended (and it WAS going to end eventually), there would be some that were such inflexible diehards that they wouldn't come along.

I've read your posts in the past, which have often been insightful. I consider you a true race fan. I think it will be unfortunate that some, like you, can't move on. You hold an irrational hatred for a man you have probably never met, and it colors your outlook.

Beginning now, AOWR is moving forward again. Some people will make the decision that they don't want to move forward with it, and that is their choice. Fortunately, it's a choice that gives you the luxury of changing your mind at any time, and that is good.

If you don't, well, that is your business, too. And in that case, whether you like it or not, joker's comment is appropriate. After all, it's all your decision, but just be aware that your decision isn't going to stop the sport from moving forward in the least. It only hurts you.

You'll just have to decide if your hate is more important than the entertainment you can get from watching the racing. Balancing the emotion of hate against a relatively minor sports controversy...well, that's just a no-brainer in my book.

Hate the grandson ... no. Met him ... no.

Is the product in the IRL going to be ANY different now that Champcar is being sucked in? I say no way. I did not watch the IRL before so why should I now? The series I like is dead. When somethings dies you grieve and move on. Time to move on.

I made it clear long ago if the grandson won this thing on his terms I would be gone as a fan. I will keep my word. I did not make those comments in jest and I am not now.

The worst part about all of this is it did not have to happen.

Thanks guys, many of you have enlightened me, entertained me, and a few irritated me. Sounds like life.

I assume I will see some of you in the F1 forum.

Later!

[indycool]

Sure, it'll take time and time will tell. This deal isn't a "microwave" for our sport but it's a giant first step toward creative and financial responsibility.

How many people have tried to put the two series together over the past years? Guys like Mario Andretti invited them all to his home for discussions and even put Pook back together with Road America once. Robert Clarke. Many, many fans clamored for a unified series. While some continued a war, others were promoting peace.

Now, we're on the threshold of peace. That's something that was necessary before ANY of it went forward.

EDIT: Blancvino, how do you figure TG "won...on his terms." As it took to have a war, it takes two to tango to have peace. They had/hafta strike a bargain.

[IMSA_Dude]

I would like to see AJ Foyt's response.
Elsewhere in motorsport.com:

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=279912&FS=CHAMPCAR
Regarding the negotiations between the Indy Racing League and Champ Car, Foyt said, "I don't really know as you hear this today and that tomorrow. I haven't talked with Brian (Barnhart) or Tony (George) about it, so I really don't know. I don't know whether the merger would make much of a difference, although we might pick up a couple more races somewhere. I do know it would be better to have one circuit than two; that would be a plus.

"The top names and owners are there (IRL) now and the only ones you would pick up would be Newman-Haas. I don't know of any American drivers other than Graham Rahal over there, plus Paul Tracy, who is a Canadian driver. Other than car count I don't know where you would gain."

Reportedly, the IRL stands ready to offer incentives to Champ Car teams to make the change. "I would throw a fit and pack up my bags if that was true," Foyt said. "And others may do the same."

[indycool]

NOTE THE QUOTE:

"IF that was true...."

We don't know what we don't know about how that would/will work.

All we have is Robin Miller saying the offer is free cars and engines several weeks ago and TG saying in the Indianapolis Star closely thereafter that they "wouldn't necessarily be free."

But everybody has copied Robin and discarded what TG said about it.

[keysersoze]

All that's left to be figured out is . . .

how Sanguin is taking all this. :p

[hacker-pschorr]

"I would throw a fit and pack up my bags if that was true," Foyt said. "And others may do the same." [/b][/i]
I saw that, reason why I asked....... :)

It's been a long time since we've seen AJ throw somebody accross pit lane.

[ChaimWitz]

All that's left to be figured out is . . .

how Sanguin is taking all this. :p

Funny, he is missing again along with Clydekart.

[tbyars]

I would hardly call what has happened over the past 13 years a "minor sports contorversy". Those 13 years have changed, no tarnished, the face of AOWR. It's a lot more than a minor controversy.

Gary, I think you and I may have a fundamental difference of opinion in terms of the nature of "hate."

Compared to "hate," which I consider the most intense, unbalancing, irrational emotion of mankind, ANY sports controversy, short of the Berlin Olympic massacre, is minor. It just doesn't rise to the definition of the term, IMO.

Doesn't make me right or you wrong. That's just our differing frames of reference.

[garyshell]

Gary, I think you and I may have a fundamental difference of opinion in terms of the nature of "hate."

Compared to "hate," which I consider the most intense, unbalancing, irrational emotion of mankind, ANY sports controversy, short of the Berlin Olympic massacre, is minor. It just doesn't rise to the definition of the term, IMO.

Doesn't make me right or you wrong. That's just our differing frames of reference.

Yep, you are correct. My definition of the word includes degrees from a kid hating broccoli to a societies hatred for some criminal despot dictator, your's appears to a bit more monolithic. And I ABSOLUTELY agree that neither is right or wrong. And I hate the fact that I just had to admit that. <big ol' grin>

Gary

[SoCalPVguy]

Maybe not such a done deal after all.

With CCWS there is ALWAYS a squall for the lull and this time it looks like GF is causing it. These guys have blown every chance up to now and I hope this isn't true that they are blowing another one...

AR! reports...

UPDATE #14 ... Hearing the merger announcement may come Thursday. However, other AutoRacing1.com sources told us a few minutes ago that Forsythe just pulled the plug on the merger. This has not been confirmed yet, so do not take it as gospel.

Geeze what next ?

[anthonyvop]

Maybe not such a done deal after all.

With CCWS there is ALWAYS a squall for the lull and this time it looks like GF is causing it. These guys have blown every chance up to now and I hope this isn't true that they are blowing another one...

AR! reports...

UPDATE #14 ... Hearing the merger announcement may come Thursday. However, other AutoRacing1.com sources told us a few minutes ago that Forsythe just pulled the plug on the merger. This has not been confirmed yet, so do not take it as gospel.

Geeze what next ?

Forsythe for President!

[weeflyonthewall]

What it means is that instead of Champ Car struggling to field 14 and IndyCar 18, we can now have a combined grid in the mid-20s! Surely a good thing!

Assuming there are enough pit stalls in IOWA. Jeesh. Next they'll keep Sears Point over Laguna Seca? And what of the CCAC? Just to much speculation for 2008.

[!!WALDO!!]

I wish that peace is at hand but there are those bound and determined to hold out until the sport is destroyed. That way they can pin it firmly on Tony George, the IRL, its fans and web sites like this that are too “fluffy” for them. This sport has been savagely ripped apart by so called fans that bomb perspective or current sponsors with emails spewing hate. This has been the m.o. for 10 years and will continue. Ever wonder why certain ICS or Team Sponsors have left over the years? They don’t like the hatred that has been started and then ends up in their laps. Since it is their money they choose to spend it on more worthy efforts than the ICS or as a by product, CCWS. Now the whole sport is a joke to the marketing people and our only saving grace is a full Sprint Cup season is $20,000,000.

I watched as a former marketing person explained that the people of the “Indy Newspaper Forums” damaged the sport beyond belief. They all laughed and continued there brutal attacks on the sport and then the poor sap, was sworn at and did nothing and lost his membership because of no reason.

Nope, the shallowness of these posters tell me that they do not go to their series races, will spend time beating up the sport and hoping that ARCA buys the remains of the series and the Indy 500 becomes an ARCA race. There will be great joy and dancing in the streets and the 300,000 real Open Wheel fans go into the dark and follow Soccer or the PBA.

I wish peace was at hand but remember Neville Chamberlin thought he could deal with the Bohemian Corporal but the World found out by stacking up 40,000,000 dead. At least it is only 300,000, I guess that is easier to take.

[electron]

but then... who is who in this mess?

I am not sure, but the phrase "peace for our time..." has crossed my mind as early as last week

[F1boat]

I dunno, if GF, PG and CC are so aggressive, let them "die" and their teams to go ALMS, IMSA or whatever. IRL does not need people so arrogant.

[jimispeed]

I dunno, if GF, PG and CC are so aggressive, let them "die" and their teams to go ALMS, IMSA or whatever. IRL does not need people so arrogant.


This is a joke!!! Champcar is the only viable open wheel series in America!! TG took most of the CART to the other side when Toyota and Honda handed over those big checks. If you look at that series now, that's about all they had left.


Champcar should have continued, as they are the true series.


TG doesn't deserve this. I hope the series fails!! A takeover of Champcar, might as well be the failure of open wheel in North America. Say goodbye to the beautiful sound of what only a Champcar can make. Say goodbye to the sexiest open wheel car ever made, the DP01. Say goodbye to most of the tracks in all of the world we once new and loved!!


I'm sorry everyone, nothing will ever be the same, and if you think this will solve everything you are hopelessly mistaken!! Champcar is the real deal.. 100 yrs. of a racing series, sold to a man who ruined open wheel??


I guess I'm going through all of those symptoms, when you lose a loved one............


The most tragic story ever in racing history.....

[F1boat]

I am sorry, Jimispeed, but in my country we knew the series as Indy Car. Ever. When the Indy was gone, we knew that it is idiocy and it slowly showed - nobody reported what happens in the series, people forgot that such sport exists.
I enjoyed Champ Car tremendously, while it was CART-sanctioned. The latest three seasons were still fun, I tried to be upbeat. But I started to watch the IRL regularly and liked it more.
Now there is a chance of a new Indy Car series.
If some egomaniacs does not want to participate, f*** them.

[jimispeed]

I am sorry, Jimispeed, but in my country we knew the series as Indy Car. Ever. When the Indy was gone, we knew that it is idiocy and it slowly showed - nobody reported what happens in the series, people forgot that such sport exists.
I enjoyed Champ Car tremendously, while it was CART-sanctioned. The latest three seasons were still fun, I tried to be upbeat. But I started to watch the IRL regularly and liked it more.
Now there is a chance of a new Indy Car series.
If some egomaniacs does not want to participate, f*** them.


Well, way back, that series that you remember as Indycar wasn't the IRL, it was Champcar......

[Hoss Ghoul]

Well, way back, that series that you remember as Indycar wasn't the IRL, it was Champcar......

Blah blah blah...what nonsense.

It wasn't Champ Car either, it was CART. And guess what? Before that it was USAC, and before that AAA....

As bad as the IRL was its first half dozen years of existence, Champ Car has easily matched it in its first four.

All this rhetoric about the good old days and who is right and who is wrong is nothing but a giant old guy circle jerk. Get over yourselves. Ever notice how everyone on these boards(but for a small minority) can roll out a laundry list of "I was there when" moments...but you hear nothing from guys in their teens, or even most of their twenties?

The fossils who hold this "war" in such high esteem(yes, you seem to love it) need to move on, and get with the program-whatever it may be.

Personally, I think the early CART-era is preferable to what we will have, but who cares, that **** is long gone, dead and buried a thousand times over. It's done. It isn't coming back, and pissing and moaning about it won't bring it back.

Quit sounding like a bunch of losers talking about your high school glory and get with the times. Argue about racing, teams and a little politics, but wake up and realize that ChampCar is just as big a POS series as the IRL, no question.

Perhaps for once in the last 13 years look to the future and what can be instead of whining about what was, or what should have been.

End of rant.

[ShiftingGears]

Blah blah blah...what nonsense.

It wasn't Champ Car either, it was CART. And guess what? Before that it was USAC, and before that AAA....

As bad as the IRL was its first half dozen years of existence, Champ Car has easily matched it in its first four.

All this rhetoric about the good old days and who is right and who is wrong is nothing but a giant old guy circle jerk. Get over yourselves. Ever notice how everyone on these boards(but for a small minority) can roll out a laundry list of "I was there when" moments...but you hear nothing from guys in their teens, or even most of their twenties?

The fossils who hold this "war" in such high esteem(yes, you seem to love it) need to move on, and get with the program-whatever it may be.

Personally, I think the early CART-era is preferable to what we will have, but who cares, that **** is long gone, dead and buried a thousand times over. It's done. It isn't coming back, and pissing and moaning about it won't bring it back.

Quit sounding like a bunch of losers talking about your high school glory and get with the times. Argue about racing, teams and a little politics, but wake up and realize that ChampCar is just as big a POS series as the IRL, no question.

Perhaps for once in the last 13 years look to the future and what can be instead of whining about what was, or what should have been.

End of rant.

Damn right. All the whinging about CCWS "losing" is avoiding the reality that AOWR is up **** creek unless the public's attention is focused on a single series. Not two.

[tbyars]

I'm sorry everyone, nothing will ever be the same, and if you think this will solve everything you are hopelessly mistaken!! Champcar is the real deal.. 100 yrs. of a racing series, sold to a man who ruined open wheel??

I guess I'm going through all of those symptoms, when you lose a loved one............

The most tragic story ever in racing history.....

Jimispeed, you need to get some prioritites straight. It's time to get a grip.

I have had friends in motorsports who have lost thier lives in the sport. They have left behind wives, kids, parents...never to take another breath in this life again. Those stories were tragic.

This story? It's a bump - a SMALL bump - in the ongoing evolution of motorsports.

Keep in mind, all of those things in your post are simply YOUR OPINION. Nothing more. Others, with a different viewpoint, aren't necessarily wrong, they just believe different things. If you try to make those issues more than that - thinking there is some "great book in the sky" that sets those things like "The only real series" in stone - well, you'd probably best look for something more settling in your life.

If motorsports went away totally tomorrow morning, the world would sill go on, folks would still go to work and pay they bills and hug their kids and get together with friends on Friday evening at the local watering hole to share a beer.

You didn't lose a family member, it's not tragic, there are lots of series left out there, and some people don't like the sound and looks of the DP-01. You just gotta accept that.

[electron]

Hoss, you get my 100% backing.
thanks for this post.

[indycool]

Hoss, tb, good post and good perspective.

[ChaimWitz]

Blah blah blah...what nonsense.

It wasn't Champ Car either, it was CART. And guess what? Before that it was USAC, and before that AAA....

As bad as the IRL was its first half dozen years of existence, Champ Car has easily matched it in its first four.

All this rhetoric about the good old days and who is right and who is wrong is nothing but a giant old guy circle jerk. Get over yourselves. Ever notice how everyone on these boards(but for a small minority) can roll out a laundry list of "I was there when" moments...but you hear nothing from guys in their teens, or even most of their twenties?

The fossils who hold this "war" in such high esteem(yes, you seem to love it) need to move on, and get with the program-whatever it may be.

Personally, I think the early CART-era is preferable to what we will have, but who cares, that **** is long gone, dead and buried a thousand times over. It's done. It isn't coming back, and pissing and moaning about it won't bring it back.

Quit sounding like a bunch of losers talking about your high school glory and get with the times. Argue about racing, teams and a little politics, but wake up and realize that ChampCar is just as big a POS series as the IRL, no question.

Perhaps for once in the last 13 years look to the future and what can be instead of whining about what was, or what should have been.

End of rant.

Wow. Brilliant! I want a t-shirt with this on it. This is exactly how I feel. It is time to move on and leave this sad, pathetic place we have all been stuck in.

[Chris R]

agreed - excellent post - time to move on....

[Ruben Barrios]

I second that!! Wait I third that!!! oh... whatever... my thoughts too...!

[nigelred5]

It wouldn't matter if the IRL was the so called looser in the war. What ever series did survive, it WOULD include TG and IMS, so we're gonna have to accept that TG IS going to be part of the openwheel future. Of course I prefer a mix of venues that weighs heavier on the roadcourse side than the IRL currently does, however that is going to take some time, but it will include more road/street courses.

Depending on how this consolidation is structured, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that we may still see some form of an 08 Champcar schedule of events alongside of the full IRL schedule to preserve events like Cleveland, Surfers, Toronto, and Mexico City. The rumours consistently say Edmonton would make the IRL schedule, but isn't it scheduled the same weekend as Mid Ohio?
I can't see how the IRL would give up the event in Cleveland for that tiny oval in IOWA. I've seen several comments that would lend some creedence to the possibility they are considering just that for this year and then a fresh start with a true merged schedule of venues in 09.

It depends ultimately on WHY the sides are capitulating. If it is for the long term survival of the sport or merely to stop the bleeding from the amigo's wallets.? What ever we see, I hope we don't loose Surfers to A1GP.

I'd also love to eventually see a schedule that alternates every other week consistently like F1.

Oh well, It's all just wishful thinking untill we see what theey actually do.

[Jacques]

Elsewhere in motorsport.com:

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=279912&FS=CHAMPCAR
Regarding the negotiations between the Indy Racing League and Champ Car, Foyt said, "I don't really know as you hear this today and that tomorrow. I haven't talked with Brian (Barnhart) or Tony (George) about it, so I really don't know. I don't know whether the merger would make much of a difference, although we might pick up a couple more races somewhere. I do know it would be better to have one circuit than two; that would be a plus.

"The top names and owners are there (IRL) now and the only ones you would pick up would be Newman-Haas. I don't know of any American drivers other than Graham Rahal over there, plus Paul Tracy, who is a Canadian driver. Other than car count I don't know where you would gain."

Reportedly, the IRL stands ready to offer incentives to Champ Car teams to make the change. "I would throw a fit and pack up my bags if that was true," Foyt said. "And others may do the same."
Sadly, AJ appears to be the only one who really sees the issues.
All this talk about an Unified Grand Series that will bring back the glory days is ridiculous. If CC is so irrelevant, as we have been told for so long, then, how can it make a difference to OW ?

"The whole is greater than the sum of the parts" is not necessarily correct. It is also how or what you sum up - as in baking, if you open the oven before it's time or if you forget an ingredient, you are dead.

Why would fans return to Texas this year ? Is it because NHL is there now ? Why would they start going to WG ? Is it because Perera will be racing there this year ?

The door is not just closing on a few CC fans, it also closed on the 30% of Texas fans who did not go to the race last year. Should it hit them on their way out too ? Sadly, that is one reason why the IR did not succeed : you don't know how to take care of fans; your condescending attitude thinks that they will buy any product you try to sell to them. Just look at Texas or WG for what the future has for you.

"Le the door hit you on your way out." And then you wonder why over 70,000 fans decided not to bother ever again about the IRL at Texas.

[nanders]

Blah blah blah...what nonsense.

It wasn't Champ Car either, it was CART. And guess what? Before that it was USAC, and before that AAA....

As bad as the IRL was its first half dozen years of existence, Champ Car has easily matched it in its first four.

All this rhetoric about the good old days and who is right and who is wrong is nothing but a giant old guy circle jerk. Get over yourselves. Ever notice how everyone on these boards(but for a small minority) can roll out a laundry list of "I was there when" moments...but you hear nothing from guys in their teens, or even most of their twenties?

The fossils who hold this "war" in such high esteem(yes, you seem to love it) need to move on, and get with the program-whatever it may be.

Personally, I think the early CART-era is preferable to what we will have, but who cares, that **** is long gone, dead and buried a thousand times over. It's done. It isn't coming back, and pissing and moaning about it won't bring it back.

Quit sounding like a bunch of losers talking about your high school glory and get with the times. Argue about racing, teams and a little politics, but wake up and realize that ChampCar is just as big a POS series as the IRL, no question.

Perhaps for once in the last 13 years look to the future and what can be instead of whining about what was, or what should have been.

End of rant.

Can I please whine about missing the Senna, Prost, Mansell era of F1 then? ;)

[indycool]

Jacques, what in the world are you talking about regarding Texas? I don't understand. Texas didn't lose 70,000 people from its IRL race. You also don't even read the part in which Foyt says, "IF THAT WAS TRUE." Robin Miller originated the freebie statement. TG said in the Indianapolis Star a couple days later that they "wouldn't necessarily be free." And everybody has just run off with what Robin said originally.

Just guessing, but I'd say it's likely that the '08 schedule will be some patchwork and '09 will be more streamlined.

As for Cleveland, it LOSES MONEY. It has passed from Newcomb to Penske to IMG, which gave it back to CART, which CC inherited, then got Lanigan to promote. It's a great course because the fan can see so much, but they don't build enough seats there (although they build to sell) and don't get enough corporate support to make the "nut." IMO, you're not going to see a financial loser to replace a financial winner anywhere on a combined schedule.

[garyshell]

This is a joke!!! Champcar is the only viable open wheel series in America!!

jimi, jimi, jimi,

I am not going to resort to the tactics of calling you crazy or delusional as some other folks here seem to take such joy in doing. I am not resorting to that crap, because I don't think you are crazy or delusional. I do believe we have a few such folks in our midst, but I do not count YOU amongst them.

I do, however think you are wrong. Look yourself in the mirror for a moment and with a straight face ask yourself, just how viable is ChampCar if Newman/Hass/Lanigan, Derrick Walker and PKV leave? Be honest. The big blow is loosing Newman/Hass/Lanigan to be sure, but the final knockout punch would be PKV. Not because there are a household name, but because it is partially owned by one of the principals of the current series. Do you truly not think that will have the few remaining sponsors, track owners and promoters running for the exits, or having their lawyers look over their current contracts for whatever loophole or escape clause?

Nope, jimi, if those three are gone and GF and PG try to carry on THEY are the ones who are delusional. I expect the folks at Panoz to laugh in their faces if they dare to approach them with any sort of proposal. The Panoz folks are way to smart for that, unless the money is placed on the table, in cash, first.

Gary

[cartpix]

I'll chime in, as a fossil, but I AM ready to move on. I grew up, around racing. I lived, breathed, ate, slept, etc., racing. Still do. I have watched the demise of many series. Can Am, Formula 5000, Can Am again, GTP, CART, USAC (for all intents & purposes), Trans Am, and now, from the looks of things, Champ Car. I have seen evolution. Front engine to mid engine, engine displacement changes, turbo, normally aspirated, ground effects, etc. I have seen all these changes, yet auto racing still goes on.

I bet, when the mid engined cars came, there were some that said, this is the end of racing, as we know it. Those cars are UGLY! They don't sound right. How about those sputtering, popping, vicious turbo cars, in F1! I bet, at the end of the turbo era, in F1, there were those that said it was the end. Grooved tires...the end. Can Am gone...the end.

Racing is about change. Racing is about evolution. If you can't except change or evolve, I don't think racing is for you.

Jeff

If you can't except change or evolve, I don't think racing is for you.

Jeff

That's given me an idea......

If you can't accept change or evolve, then you'll love the........

"Forsythe vs Rocketsport 3-Car Series........this Time it's futile!"

Mr Forsythe, if you're reading this, I'll sell you the tag-line.....but I want cash up front.

This from Autosport

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/65229

Indy Racing League and Champ Car officials are still working through the final paperwork to seal the merger between the two championships.

A deal is now increasingly likely to go ahead, with a press conference perhaps taking place as early as tomorrow, and both sides are believed to be in the final stages of putting pen to paper on a contract.

Fred Nation, spokesman for IRL founder Tony George, told The Indianapolis Star: "We are still trading drafts of a (possible) agreement.

"We are whittling away at the issues, but they have not been eliminated. We're optimistic these things can be resolved, but... it's always possible that (someone) will decide they don't want to (unify)."

Nation added that the main topic of discussion at the moment related to the financial aspects of a deal, with the stumbling block of the clash between the Motegi IRL race and Long Beach's Champ Car date having been overcome.

If a deal does go ahead, it is not clear yet which Champ Car teams will turn down the chance to join the newly merged series.

IRL chassis supplier Dallara said they were on standby to supply extra cars for this season, although admitted that it was now getting late in the day to expand their operation.

Gian Paolo Dallara told Italian magazine Autosprint: "We have been advised to keep ourselves ready for this possibility (of supplying extra cars).

"Several (Champ Car) teams are asking us when we can supply them with the (IRL) cars. We were ready for what are normal replacements, like some teams wanting to freshen up their supply. So we stay alert and ready to satisfy any requests.

"However, time is short, and perhaps the best solution would be delay this merger until 2009. Carl Haas has already said that he wants to enter the IRL next year."

[jimispeed]

jimi, jimi, jimi,

I am not going to resort to the tactics of calling you crazy or delusional as some other folks here seem to take such joy in doing. I am not resorting to that crap, because I don't think you are crazy or delusional. I do believe we have a few such folks in our midst, but I do not count YOU amongst them.

I do, however think you are wrong. Look yourself in the mirror for a moment and with a straight face ask yourself, just how viable is ChampCar if Newman/Hass/Lanigan, Derrick Walker and PKV leave? Be honest. The big blow is loosing Newman/Hass/Lanigan to be sure, but the final knockout punch would be PKV. Not because there are a household name, but because it is partially owned by one of the principals of the current series. Do you truly not think that will have the few remaining sponsors, track owners and promoters running for the exits, or having their lawyers look over their current contracts for whatever loophole or escape clause?

Nope, jimi, if those three are gone and GF and PG try to carry on THEY are the ones who are delusional. I expect the folks at Panoz to laugh in their faces if they dare to approach them with any sort of proposal. The Panoz folks are way to smart for that, unless the money is placed on the table, in cash, first.

Gary


Ya know, of the few people lately who understand where I'm coming from, I think you are one of them. I do agree that if all is lost (meaning a good number of teams have left) then swallow the pride of the series, and pray that TG has a soul for what should be preserved.

But, my argument has always been about if Champcar remained as it was last year. 18 to 19 cars on the grid, and all of the venues again, including a couple of new ones. While, at the same time TG seemed to be having trouble coming up with his numbers in his series. One more year IMO would have allowed for more time and possibly put plans in place for better cars, better tracks, and a whole lot of getting to know the new series that we all could be excited about in '09...

Gary, if you really want to know how I truthfully feel about what is about to go down, then read my thread "Reaching out to Tony George"!

The rest of my emotions are fueled by what seems to to too many who think about mngmnt only, and never mention how the Vanderbilt Cup, and Champcars' history in need of being preserved!

The ways things look like their going to happen right now isn't my idea of a victory for open wheel......

Thank you for having some compassion Gary!

[ChaimWitz]

Ya know, of the few people lately who understand where I'm coming from, I think you are one of them. I do agree that if all is lost (meaning a good number of teams have left) then swallow the pride of the series, and pray that TG has a soul for what should be preserved.

But, my argument has always been about if Champcar remained as it was last year. 18 to 19 cars on the grid, and all of the venues again, including a couple of new ones. While, at the same time TG seemed to be having trouble coming up with his numbers in his series. One more year IMO would have allowed for more time and possibly put plans in place for better cars, better tracks, and a whole lot of getting to know the new series that we all could be excited about in '09...

Gary, if you really want to know how I truthfully feel about what is about to go down, then read my thread "Reaching out to Tony George"!

The rest of my emotions are fueled by what seems to to too many who think about mngmnt only, and never mention how the Vanderbilt Cup, and Champcars' history in need of being preserved!

The ways things look like their going to happen right now isn't my idea of a victory for open wheel......

Thank you for having some compassion Gary!

Jimispeed, I was there when it dawned on Andrew Craig to embrace the sport's heritage with the Vanderbilt Cup as a symbol. I was there when the argument was made to the Pookster to embrace the heritage of the American National Championship. The truth is, this rich and noble heritage was never sincerely embraced or understood by the current management and ownership so I would be truly surprised if any of them have ever bothered to learn even a snippet of the history that they claim so righteously as theirs. The truth is that the Vanderbilt Cup used by ChampCar is a twelve year old replica. The truth is that the devolution of ChampCar has seen it drift away from being an authentic representation of all the things you mentioned above. The truth is that all this equity was squandered by the Amigos in their ill-conceived game of chicken with Tony George. They lost and OWRS will die soon. But take heart. The heritage did not die when AAA left the sport, or USAC or CART and the sport won't die because the Amigos no longer have control of something that they have conclusively proven that they shouldn't have control of. I believe that you and I probably care about the same things when it comes to this family tragedy. We just see what happens next differently. I appreciate and respect your passion. The sport will need that if it is to prosper again. I have found that success in life comes with embracing change rather than resisting it at all costs. Bring on the future. I can deal with it and I am sure you can too.

[jimispeed]

Jimispeed, I was there when it dawned on Andrew Craig to embrace the sport's heritage with the Vanderbilt Cup as a symbol. I was there when the argument was made to the Pookster to embrace the heritage of the American National Championship. The truth is, this rich and noble heritage was never sincerely embraced or understood by the current management and ownership so I would be truly surprised if any of them have ever bothered to learn even a snippet of the history that they claim so righteously as theirs. The truth is that the Vanderbilt Cup used by ChampCar is a twelve year old replica. The truth is that the devolution of ChampCar has seen it drift away from being an authentic representation of all the things you mentioned above. The truth is that all this equity was squandered by the Amigos in their ill-conceived game of chicken with Tony George. They lost and OWRS will die soon. But take heart. The heritage did not die when AAA left the sport, or USAC or CART and the sport won't die because the Amigos no longer have control of something that they have conclusively proven that they shouldn't have control of. I believe that you and I probably care about the same things when it comes to this family tragedy. We just see what happens next differently. I appreciate and respect your passion. The sport will need that if it is to prosper again. I have found that success in life comes with embracing change rather than resisting it at all costs. Bring on the future. I can deal with it and I am sure you can too.


Thank you Chaimwitz. Very nice post!

I know you don't mean any harm with it, but it's a salting of a very deep wound anytime you or anyone says that Tony George won though. I don't want to think of it that way. I would like to believe that it will be a respectable transition.

I hope to be pleasantly surprised when it all gets announced.

[garyshell]

Gary, if you really want to know how I truthfully feel about what is about to go down, then read my thread "Reaching out to Tony George"!

The rest of my emotions are fueled by what seems to to too many who think about mngmnt only, and never mention how the Vanderbilt Cup, and Champcars' history in need of being preserved!

The ways things look like their going to happen right now isn't my idea of a victory for open wheel......

Thank you for having some compassion Gary!

Hey, I have been following that thread. And agree that embracing the Vanderbilt Cup is a great idea. Take heart, I read an article earlier today (can't find the link) that indicated one of the things that the IRL was trying to acquire was as th e article put it the ChampCar database. The current IRL history shows Sam Hornish as the winnigest driver, they want to return that honor to AJ Foyt. No mention was made about the history in the overlapping 13 years though. But it was obvious that there is some thought to embracing the past. Let's hope that includes the Vanderbilt trophy.

Anyone else see that article? Can you provide a link?

Gary

[beachbum]

I bet, when the mid engined cars came, there were some that said, this is the end of racing, as we know it. Those cars are UGLY! They don't sound right. I remember listening to the radio broadcast from Indy in 1961 (yes, I am THAT old) when Sir Jack ran his "furrin" rear engine Cooper. As Wikipedia put it "The "funny" little car from Europe was mocked by the other teams, but it ran as high as third although ultimately finishing ninth." The broadcasters didn't know what to think and initially thought it was something of a joke but soon they realized he was much faster in the turns than the roadsters. The handwriting was on the wall. In racing, either you move forward as fast as you can, or you get run over. Or as the old racing saying goes "don't look back, someone may be gaining on you".

It's time to move forward and stop looking back.

[cartpix]

Or as the old racing saying goes "don't look back, someone may be gaining on you".

I thought it was, "objects in the mirror are losing"

Jeff

[tbyars]

The rest of my emotions are fueled by what seems to to too many who think about mngmnt only, and never mention how the Vanderbilt Cup, and Champcars' history in need of being preserved!

Jimi, let me ask you a question.

I go back to USAC days. The history from that time and before was carried over, in the feelings of most here, to CART in 1979.

When CCWS bought the assets of CART in 2004, the history and heritage of Champ Car, as most see it, carried over to CCWS.

Now, CCWS is being "absorbed," or whatever you want to call it, by the IRL in 2008.

According to at least one news report I have seen, one of the things the IRL is interested in acquiring is the "intellectual property" that includes the historical database of what is commonly referred to now as Champ Car, as Gary stated.

Now, under those circumstances, why are you not ready to accept that the heritage and history of "Champ Car" will be carried on by the IRL and Tony George, just as it was in the previous transitions?

One word of warning...the answer CAN'T be "because you dislike, don't trust, hate, despise, don't respect, ________________ (fill in your own blank here) Tony George or the IRL." You can't use that answer because history is a non-biased entity. It doesn't carry your, or my, emotional baggage.

TG and the IRL will carry the Champ Car heritage forward, just as CCWS, CART, USAC and others did before them. And, some day, someone will carry it forward from TG and the IRL. That, too, is inevitable.

The heritage isn't based around turbos or DP-01s, because they haven't always been there. There were evolutionary steps in technology before (and not always defined by the current observers as forward-looking), and will be later. The heritage isn't defined by specific venues, but more by the racing philosophy of the particular caretaker at the time, just as it will be now, and will be differently in the future.

Don't make the mistake of defining the history and heritage of what you call "Champ Car" in the terms you choose to define it in now. It was here before you and I, and will be here after we are gone. If you chose to do that, then you are personally denying that heritage back to the beginning of the century, and past where we are today.

Just food for thought.

[jimispeed]

Tbyars, I hope that you are right and that TG fully embraces the intellectual property of USAC/CART/Champcar.

There is some damn good racing along with that history. And, some damn nice cars as well!!

Hope the new series lives up to all of that.

[bravefish]

Just heard the news - Brilliant !!! Big fields, the best drivers from both series head to head - this is great and about bloody time too ! Watch those sponsorship dollars roll in !!

Time to challenge that tin-top series now...

[SOD]

Jacques, what in the world are you talking about regarding Texas? I don't understand. Texas didn't lose 70,000 people from its IRL race. You also don't even read the part in which Foyt says, "IF THAT WAS TRUE." Robin Miller originated the freebie statement. TG said in the Indianapolis Star a couple days later that they "wouldn't necessarily be free." And everybody has just run off with what Robin said originally.

Just guessing, but I'd say it's likely that the '08 schedule will be some patchwork and '09 will be more streamlined.

As for Cleveland, it LOSES MONEY. It has passed from Newcomb to Penske to IMG, which gave it back to CART, which CC inherited, then got Lanigan to promote. It's a great course because the fan can see so much, but they don't build enough seats there (although they build to sell) and don't get enough corporate support to make the "nut." IMO, you're not going to see a financial loser to replace a financial winner anywhere on a combined schedule.

how many of the IRl races actually make money without wlfare from honda?

St Pete is a money loser for honda. carry on., wont you be out of a job soon?

[FormerFF]

I remember listening to the radio broadcast from Indy in 1961 (yes, I am THAT old) when Sir Jack ran his "furrin" rear engine Cooper. As Wikipedia put it "The "funny" little car from Europe was mocked by the other teams, but it ran as high as third although ultimately finishing ninth." The broadcasters didn't know what to think and initially thought it was something of a joke but soon they realized he was much faster in the turns than the roadsters. The handwriting was on the wall. In racing, either you move forward as fast as you can, or you get run over. Or as the old racing saying goes "don't look back, someone may be gaining on you".

It's time to move forward and stop looking back.

"Don't look back. Something might be gaining on you. " - Satchel Paige

I look on this moment as the end of a crash. At this point, the survivor is being taken to a hospital. Hopefully those in charge will be able to patch the series up to where it can sustain itself. At that point, then maybe it can grow.

It's not going to be easy. The sporting calendar is extremely crowded. NASCAR has a huge portion of the potential fan base locked up. The ALMS is showing itself to be an up and comer as well. The availability of promotional dollars is not great, especially in the automotive marketplace. The series has one auto maker and one tire company involved. The U. S. economy is probably going into a recession, and the ticket buying public is being squeezed by poor wage growth and high energy and food prices. Also, the series' core product, open wheel oval racing, hasn't shown it has that much staying power in many of the markets where it currently runs.

There are some bright spots as well. There are two fairly well know personality drivers in Helio Castroneves and Danica Patrick. It has two famous family name drivers in Graham Rahal and Marco Andretti, although it's likely that at least one of those two will be off to Europe next year. Paul Tracy and Tony Kanaan are fairly well known, though I wouldn't be surprised if PT makes this his last year. There are signs that the NASCAR wave has crested, and the series may be able to pick up some fans, and maybe some sponsors from there.

[garyshell]

Time to challenge that tin-top series now...

No it's time to put on a damn good open wheel race season, period. Forget the tin-tops. This is not about competing with them, it is about getting "our" house in order.

Gary

[gofastandwynn]

how many of the IRl races actually make money without wlfare from honda?

St Pete is a money loser for honda. carry on., wont you be out of a job soon?

Oh really, Honda puts on St. Pete? I didn't know that. I thought AGR put on St. Pete but you say it is honda and you and all of the other losers at CCF (they did lose) must be right. :rolleyes:

[indycool]

Last I heard, Honda was a SPONSOR at St. Pete and Mid-Ohio, among others. Races get sponsorships, too.

No it's time to put on a damn good open wheel race season, period. Forget the tin-tops. This is not about competing with them, it is about getting "our" house in order.

Gary

Totally agree.

The key thing, should Friday bring one series, is for that series to concentrate on it's own identity.

The successful series currently in operation are not obsessed with what other series are doing.

[nigelred5]

Everyone likes to villify Honda for sponsoring the IRL, yet weren't the same people were openly pining for Mazda to do just the same for CCWS? I'm so damn tired of it all.

Maybe we can actually get back to discussing racing this year.

[indycool]

Here's what seems to be the latest, from the Indianapolis Star:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080221/SPORTS0107/802210498/1247/SPORTS

[SOD]

Oh really, Honda puts on St. Pete? I didn't know that. I thought AGR put on St. Pete but you say it is honda and you and all of the other losers at CCF (they did lose) must be right. :rolleyes:

deal with it, if you can.

[heelntoe]

deal with it, if you can.

Deal with what? You obviously don't seem to be dealing with what's happening right in front of your eyes...CCWS is folding as many of us expected and predicted and the IRL is leading the new chapter in open wheel rebuilding and unification...deal with that!

[cartpix]

Deal with what? You obviously don't seem to be dealing with what's happening right in front of your eyes...CCWS is folding as many of us expected and predicted and the IRL is leading the new chapter in open wheel rebuilding and unification...deal with that!


Amen, to that! Champ Car was great, while it lasted, but it didn't make it. Champ Car isn't folding into the IRL, it isn't being absorbed, nor is this a merger. Champ Car IS dead. Some of the teams ARE moving to the IRL. They WILL be driving Dallaras, not DP01s. They WILL be powered by normally asperated engines NOT turbocharged engines. It is NOT Champ Car. It IS the IRL.

Deal with that! We all have to, it is FACT. Bad mouthing the series, calling the cars ugly, saying they fly (ALL RACE CARS CAN DO THAT. btw), saying they are unsafe (a real slippery slope), etc. will NOT change these facts. Accept the fact that this is what is going on, because this IS what is going on.

Follow the series, if you want. If you don't want to, no one is forcing you to follow the teams, that go. It's not going back to what it was. Hate & contempt won't change a thing.

Jeff

[SFChamp]

Won't watch I am done You can Have Your IRL and the 500

Off to ALMS & F-1 Heck I would rather wach the Russell Series in Sonoma
Than the B-Leauge IRL

Another Lost Fan
Way To Go TG

[Ruben Barrios]

"Another Lost Fan
Way To Go TG"

I'm sure all 35 die hard "fans" will be missed, I'm also sure the retrograde ideas and childish grudges will be the demise of the Indy 500... Sarcasm off....

[heelntoe]

"Another Lost Fan
Way To Go TG"

I'm sure all 35 die hard "fans" will be missed, I'm also sure the retrograde ideas and childish grudges will be the demise of the Indy 500... Sarcasm off....

You know, it would be easy for us to say "don't let the door hit ya' on the way out"...the really sad part to me as a former champcar fan is that guys like SF, who rallied for PT and the other CCWS drivers who will now be vying for position elsewhere, are shutting the door on their heroes because of totally misguided hatred...

[Ruben Barrios]

heelntoe... bottom line is that both series have their share of vicious narrow-minded haters... I for one have come to understand the situation and as much as I have no respect for TG, I understand that unified is the only way to go. The post BK Champcar was a joke of a series, and should have died before making for such a sorry image.

Time to mend fences, time to stop harrasing people because they follow a different series... enough with the divisiveness...

[CHAMPMOM]

Although Champcar will cease to exist, and some of Champcar teams will run in the IRL, MAKING THE IRL STRONGER, I do think that in the long run, ONE openwheel series will be able to survive and maybe even prosper ( I hope ).

HOWEVER I am going to miss the turbo charged engines, pop, pop, bang, pop AND the smell of the methanol :) Maybe someday the IRL will do away with the aspirated engines and go with the turbos. My ONLY wish.

[Cart750hp]

Although Champcar will cease to exist, and some of Champcar teams will run in the IRL, MAKING THE IRL STRONGER, I do think that in the long run, ONE openwheel series will be able to survive and maybe even prosper ( I hope ).

HOWEVER I am going to miss the turbo charged engines, pop, pop, bang, pop AND the smell of the methanol :) Maybe someday the IRL will do away with the aspirated engines and go with the turbos. My ONLY wish.

Very good insight, champmom.

There will be tons of good stuff going to come out of this new one series since everyone will be in one roof. The competition that Penske, NHLR, Ganassi, Forsythe, Rahal, and Walker had before is no doubt is coming back. That should be the start of all these mess. Schedule will probably the next on the line that they all need to fix. That alone is a very good start. Once everyone gets the hang of it, well, competition comes to mind such as: manufacturer, engines, new chassis, tires....etc. There are more possibilities now that they are under one roof than seperate.

Time to race.

[!!WALDO!!]

Won't watch I am done You can Have Your IRL and the 500

Off to ALMS & F-1 Heck I would rather wach the Russell Series in Sonoma
Than the B-Leauge IRL

Another Lost Fan
Way To Go TG

How are you a race fan? Please explain how one series demise causes you to hate?

In 1970 I went to Springfield, DuQuoin, Sedelia, Indiana Fairgrounds and Sacramento to see the end of Dirt on the National Championship Trail, yet I did not throw a tantrum although I was only 16 but I accepted to way it was and moved on. I became a CART fan in 1981 when it was obvious that they were now the game. I saw the cancer that would kill it and divide the sport, car owners setting the rules to their advantage. A mistake that a little race track wouldn't make but a Major League group would. I knew the day would come that Indy would control things as it had since 1911. USAC was formed by Tony Hulman to take over for AAA so the 500 had a sanction. This sport has always been about one race and other races on the schedule. Sponsors knew that and paid accordingly. CCWS is dead because of the very race you villify. If they went to Indy they ould have gotten something but nope, thumbing your nose at the only Open Wheel race according to the "decision makers" is poor business and will cause a team owner to spend their own money.

You should be happy as KK and GF will be able to keep money rather than peeing it away on a series that nobody really cares about.

Wait until Don Panoz stops spending money on his little money loser and packs that in. Are you going to have the same attitude about the Grand-Am?

True racing fans enjoy racing of all types, people that hate really have no place in this sport and need not be around. Come to Angel Park to watch the Midgets (Open Wheel Cars) if you do not know, and spew hate. You will be turned into a smelling block of cheese. Yet here, it is ok.

Enjoy your life.

[garyshell]

You know, it would be easy for us to say "don't let the door hit ya' on the way out"...the really sad part to me as a former champcar fan is that guys like SF, who rallied for PT and the other CCWS drivers who will now be vying for position elsewhere, are shutting the door on their heroes because of totally misguided hatred...


I totally agree, it is misguided when it focuses on the WHOLE series. That is precisely why I started the "What DO I hate" thread. After much soul searching I realized I could focus that hatred and then easily move on. I wanted to continue to see Paul, Justin, Graham et al. And by properly guiding the hatred I held, I could do so.

Gary

[gofastandwynn]

Deal not quite done yet.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080221/SPORTS01/80221062


Open-wheel racing still had two series after meetings between owners of the Indy Racing League and the Champ Car World Series ended Thursday night.

Another round of meetings is scheduled for today, according to IRL spokesman Fred Nation.

IRL founder Tony George and Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven discussed unification of the sport during dinner at the Eagle's Nest, a restaurant atop the Downtown Hyatt Regency hotel, but they did not complete a deal.

Nation said there is no cause for concern even though a news conference planned for this morning at Indianapolis Motor Speedway was put on hold.

"Absolutely not," he said. "They made a heck of a lot of progress, but they're not over the hump yet."

The IRL is seeking full rights to Indy-style racing, including its history and trademarks. All future races will be held under the IndyCar Series banner, and Champ Car's owners are not permitted to operate a rival series based in the U.S.

[Cart750hp]

You know, it would be easy for us to say "don't let the door hit ya' on the way out"...the really sad part to me as a former champcar fan is that guys like SF, who rallied for PT and the other CCWS drivers who will now be vying for position elsewhere, are shutting the door on their heroes because of totally misguided hatred...

In all honesty, heelntoe, as far as my opinion, fans like SFChamp have been more than just a CC fan but more of an individual or a group who are dedicated of hating TG and the demise of the IRL. You don't have to look outside of this forum how many of them are exactly like him. Most here have accepted the fact that this is reality and it's business. Most have been waiting for this to happen, some have accepted and eventually some couldn't. Although these guys hate the new IndyCar, they will be watching it anyhow or they probably still be posting here. Whatever they do, that is not CC/IRL's fault. Just the fact that people couldn't move on is the reason we are reading posts like his.

The fans are the ones who will be watching without any prejudices or sort of hatred. Rather than fans who are looking forward to see Paul Tracy against his old rivals Helio, Tony, Alex (Tagliani if he makes it), Bruno. On top of that, we have Americans we've been asking for such as Marco, Graham and Danica who will be putting another good race. Seeing the old team rivals such as Penske, Ganassi, Rahal, Newman-Haas, Walker and Forstythe are just the beginning. Who's not looking forward to these if you aren't into sports or motorsports itself?

All I can say to those guys like SFChamp...."Good luck to your new kind of entertainment".

[Dave Brock]

"Another Lost Fan
Way To Go TG"

I'm sure all 35 die hard "fans" will be missed, I'm also sure the retrograde ideas and childish grudges will be the demise of the Indy 500... Sarcasm off....


How could anyone be a fan of a series that paid the drivers (who only risked their lives :rolleyes: ) absolutly NOTHING for the last 2 years and paid their biggest (widest) "star" in promises of future monies..?
Even circus performers get paid regularly but not CCWS drivers who had to pay themselves for the priviliged of running in a 3rd rate series.

The whole history of CCWS was based on the very people they could never find enough money to pay, talk about your slave wages or lack of them in this case.
What a sorry series to support...and NOT 1 single fan of CCWS ever showed a single iota of concern for the guys they claim to support either in the media or on ANY forum on the net, which speaks volumns about the depth of your average CCWS fan.
I ,for one, have always felt sorry for the CCWS drivers and feel now like they will finally get a chance to make a buck like they do in REAL racing in the real big leagues at real speeds on real TRACKS instead of bus routes.

[Dave Brock]

In all honesty.........
All I can say to those guys like SFChamp....
"Good luck to your new kind of entertainment".

I'll bet you a buck that that enterainment will only involve a single hand. :D

[indycool]

As Ruben and CART750 said, Dave, like CW, those folks will be loud (and probably just mean and nasty) on the Internet, but in the big picture of things, it'll be a very small group.

[Civic]

I guess the press conference scheduled for tomorrow will confirm the end to the split?

Just doesn't seem right...
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/HybridsRacing/DSC00274.jpg

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/HybridsRacing/DSC00282.jpg

Someone forgot to put Briscoe's name...
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/HybridsRacing/DSC00283-1.jpg

[Ruben Barrios]

"series that paid the drivers (who only risked their lives ) absolutly NOTHING for the last 2 years"

Drivers that got no respect from the CCWS crowd had to sell their personal assets for the privilege of driving for the select group of scavengers who saw the demise of CART as an opportunity to make a quick buck (not very bright idea was it folks)... The new "owners" were a bunch of mercenaries who got every penny they invested back... now they are deffended because "they put their money into trying to save our belove series"... newsflash... they made money every year... they leased the engines to the teams... they made money in the venues they owned... they made money from the marketing and technology... they made money on promoters fees.... the ones who lost were the teams, sponsors, drivers and fans....

[BoilerIMS]

Civic,

Where is that Penske car located and can you provide a few more details? It is obviously a turbo engine, but the paint job looks like the one run by Penske at Phoenix in 2001.

[pvtjoker]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/open-wheel-unification-announcement-postponed/

The official unification announcement of open wheel racing will not be Friday and might not happen until Monday.

Following six hours of meetings and dinner Thursday between Tony George and Kevin Kalkhoven at the downtown Hyatt Hotel, word came down there would be no press conference at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway on Friday morning.

It had tentatively been set for 11:45 a.m.

“I don’t think there’s any fatal problem, they just didn’t quite get everything done,” said Fred Nation, the IMS vice president of communications.

“They stopped for the evening and they’ll resume in the morning.”

Kalkhoven flew in from England and arrived in Indianapolis shortly before 4 o’clock, where his Champ Car attorneys were gathered with the IRL’s legal counsel. They broke for dinner at 7:30 and were joined by George.

Prior to their meeting, Kalkhoven had been quoted as saying all that was left to ending the 12-year split was “grinding out the details.”

[Cartomante]

KK is stabbing Champ Car and it's fans in the back. I suppose as a merger and acquisitions investor, it's his right. But, it stinks. If I were to ever watch an IRL race, which I won't, at least I'd have PKV Racing to root against. Actually, I don't think KK will stay as a team owner for very long -- only long enough to meet a minimum car count. As soon as he can he'll take his bucks and move on. Afterall, he got what wanted -- a buy out. All at the expense of sacking all that is Champ Car.

[SarahFan]

wonder why Gerald wasn't there also

[nigelred5]

KK is the merger/buyout expert so to speak, he's just on the other side of the battle for a change. I think GF has said F-it,You want this so bad, you do it. I'm sick of all of this and I won't sit at the same table with that pr!ck. Other than PN, I don't think anyone has fought against TG any harder than GF. It's probably a hard pill to swallow for GF.

[indycool]

PN was quoted in one of RM's stories that he was in favor of a melding of the two series. Mario Andretti, Honda, Ford, Bridgestone/Firestone and other various people have tried through the years to put this back together. Other than a few people I've seen on the boards (and CW), one series seems to be preferable to the great majority.

I'd guess KK has been selected by The Amigos to cut the deal, so he's the man doin' the talkin' here in Indy with the lawyers doin' the lawyerin'.

That said, it's doubtful that the '08 schedule is going to be any work of art. But Nation said in one story that the '09 schedule is a clean sheet of paper. And THAT said, the events hafta be financially feasible. The ones that aren't will go away.

I'm also certain that the melding will not be EXACTLY what every individual fan or poster or car owner or driver wants....simply because they all want something different.......more technical cars, less costly-less technical cars, this venue or that one, turbos or naturally aspirated, a monkey riding on the rear wing when rain tires are used in qualifying, a monkey not riding on the rear wing when rain tires are used in qualifying, etc.

So, assuming it gets done today or over the weekend, I also assume that every individual's ox will be gored in some way. But with one series instead of two, the SPORT wins and has a chance to grow in the sports entertainment marketplace.

[garyshell]

So, assuming it gets done today or over the weekend, I also assume that every individual's ox will be gored in some way. But with one series instead of two, the SPORT wins and has a chance to grow in the sports entertainment marketplace.


And then on Monday we can all gather round for some ox tail soup and ox meat burgers and a brew or three.

Gary

[cartpix]

KK is stabbing Champ Car and it's fans in the back. I suppose as a merger and acquisitions investor, it's his right. But, it stinks. If I were to ever watch an IRL race, which I won't, at least I'd have PKV Racing to root against. Actually, I don't think KK will stay as a team owner for very long -- only long enough to meet a minimum car count. As soon as he can he'll take his bucks and move on. Afterall, he got what wanted -- a buy out. All at the expense of sacking all that is Champ Car.
I'm so glad you show up & share with us all the intimate knowledge, you seem to know, about all things American open wheel finances and what goes on, behind closed doors. Exactly how much was KK paid in this "buy out"? How much money did KK dump into the series?You seem to know the figure. Would you mind sharing it with the class? Maybe you think he should have spent ALL his money, Champ Car would still fold, IMO, and he would be a broke. How easy it is to spend someone else's money. And how much of your money, went into this deal?

This is exactly what I hate about the split. It's not the split, itself. TG was within his rights to start his own series, centered around his race track. He broke no laws, in doing that. As for his original "vision", it wasn't working, so he changed his vision. People seem to think this was so bad. It's called a business. If things aren't working, you change direction, or spiral. There are plenty of businessmen, here, that will tell you the same thing. Of course when Champ Car focused on 3 day festivals of speed, the in midstream, changed their course. That was OK.

What bothers me the most is, fans were forced to choose between 2 series & to hate the one they didn't choose. As a life long race fan and, now, part time motorsport photojournalist, I love all things racing. I was surrounded by racing, since birth. When I grew up, if you went to a race shop, you would see race cars of several flavors. Teams and drivers would run different series, as scheduling allowed. If not in one season, then season to season. Today, it seems, if you like CC, you can't like the IRL, NASCAR, or Grand Am. But you can like ALMS, F1, GP2, & A1GP. Today, motorsports fans seem to be all about hate.

I don't get it. If there is a race on, I'm watching it. If there are 2 races on, at the same time, I'm watching 1 & recording the other. I like it all, road courses, ovals, street tracks, & straight line. And all forms, open wheel (all of them), sports cars (all of them), tin tops (all of them), drags (all of them), etc. I have been known to watch tractor pulls, when nothing else is on. Do you see a pattern here?

I have watched the demise of Can Am, Formula 5000, Formula Super Vee, Trans Am, CART, and several others. Racing still exists & I will continue to watch it & I will continue to shoot it. But if you want to point fingers & hate, go right ahead. It's YOUR blood pressure. Life is too short to hate stuff, you have no control over. Maybe you should switch to arena football. Does that still exist?

Jeff
Not a Hater

[bblocker68]

Man, I held off looking in here for an hour, hoping the announcement was made. Oh well, I'll do the same thing for the next few days I suppose.

Can I have my Ox "medium" please? I think a nice Oatmeal Stout would go good with that. I'll be tipping a few more after this is all over and done with. I'm just glad the wait is almost over.

[Ruben Barrios]

"fans like SFChamp have been more than just a CC fan but more of an individual or a group who are dedicated of hating TG and the demise of the IRL."

Very well said!!! Hating is a negative, and negative breeds negative only...

[garyshell]

Can I have my Ox "medium" please? I think a nice Oatmeal Stout would go good with that. I'll be tipping a few more after this is all over and done with. I'm just glad the wait is almost over.

Or a Samuel Smith's Taddy Porter. Yum.

Gary

[Andrewmcm]

http://blogs.indystar.com/racingexpert/

Hmm. I wonder what's brewing?

[BenRoethig]

Civic,

Where is that Penske car located and can you provide a few more details? It is obviously a turbo engine, but the paint job looks like the one run by Penske at Phoenix in 2001.

Probably one of the old 'Peynards' used as a showpiece.

[bblocker68]

Forum fodder, mostly. We have to do something until Monday, right?

[clydekart]

According to IndyStar KK and TG have still not reached a deal. TG says he is "anxious" and KK has no Comment.
Why don't they work through the weekend and wrap it up?
There's got to be something big that both sided can't agree on--who knows what.

[dataman1]

That's all I can stand! The fat cat rich bums have previous "Commitments" preventing continued talks. I give up. Someone call me when this farse of a soap opera is over. It's Friday and darn near MILLER TIME!

[gofastandwynn]

According to IndyStar KK and TG have still not reached a deal. TG says he is "anxious" and KK has no Comment.
Why don't they work through the weekend and wrap it up?
There's got to be something big that both sided can't agree on--who knows what.

The indy star also said that KK already had a commitment and had to leave to begin with, and that the CC and IRL lawyers are still working on it in Indianapolis.

[cartpix]

In all honesty, heelntoe, as far as my opinion, fans like SFChamp have been more than just a CC fan but more of an individual or a group who are dedicated of hating TG and the demise of the IRL. You don't have to look outside of this forum how many of them are exactly like him. Most here have accepted the fact that this is reality and it's business. Most have been waiting for this to happen, some have accepted and eventually some couldn't. Although these guys hate the new IndyCar, they will be watching it anyhow or they probably still be posting here. Whatever they do, that is not CC/IRL's fault. Just the fact that people couldn't move on is the reason we are reading posts like his.

The fans are the ones who will be watching without any prejudices or sort of hatred. Rather than fans who are looking forward to see Paul Tracy against his old rivals Helio, Tony, Alex (Tagliani if he makes it), Bruno. On top of that, we have Americans we've been asking for such as Marco, Graham and Danica who will be putting another good race. Seeing the old team rivals such as Penske, Ganassi, Rahal, Newman-Haas, Walker and Forstythe are just the beginning. Who's not looking forward to these if you aren't into sports or motorsports itself?

All I can say to those guys like SFChamp...."Good luck to your new kind of entertainment".


I think you're on t something. It's not about liking CART/Champ Car, it's about hating IRL/NASCAR. They seemed to be OK, with the old CART driver. Rooted for them, week in & week out. But as soon as they wert to the IRL or NASCAR, they were losers, traitors, the devil's spawn...

Thay are NOT race fans. They are hate mongers.

Jeff

[gofastandwynn]

Probably one of the old 'Peynards' used as a showpiece.

I thought they were called Renyskes

[clydekart]

The indy star also said that KK already had a commitment and had to leave to begin with, and that the CC and IRL lawyers are still working on it in Indianapolis.

I would think it's in TG's best interest to get this done ASAP. There is always a 1 in a million chance that someone else steps-up with funding for CC. GF may still be trying, you never know.

[FormerFF]

It's in everyone's interest to get this done as soon as possible, but there are a lot of different parties involved, so it's not surprising that it may take a little longer than anyone would like.

[Shirk]

You really do have to wonder what's so complicated about negotiating a surrender.

[bblocker68]

Wrong Forum for those comments.

I think this topic is being covered in 5 simultanious threads............

[BradCA1]

Posted on front page of IndyCar.com

Finally, we can all exhale. IndyCar racing is back on the right track.

[gofastandwynn]

George, series owners sign unification agreement
By Dave Lewandowski
indycar.com

Indy Racing League founder and CEO Tony George and owners of the Champ Car World Series have completed an agreement in principle that will unify the sport for 2008.

Gerald Forsythe, co-owner of Champ Car, signed an agreement in principle Feb. 22 in Chicago, joining his partner, Kevin Kalkhoven. George signed the agreement Feb. 21.

Details of a news conference about the agreement will be forthcoming. When scheduled, the news conference will be shown live on indycar.com.

http://www.indycar.com/

[Lousada]

Finally :up: Now on to a better future!

[canada]

Thank god! I'm actually going to tune back to some IndyCar racing this year! Its been a dark few years, and I'm sure its not the deal we all would have hoped, but it certainly gives a lot for the series to build from.

[gofastandwynn]

According to Race magazine, KK signed this morning, the hold up was Forsythe signing in Chicago this afternoon.

Happy Day!

[mlj]

So, does anyone have any idea when we will get the details?

[clydekart]

This is a sad day for motorsports. I will never watch an irl race or post again on an irl-cc forum.

[acescribe]

Four years ago I would have said no way - but - this is the only way forward for open-wheeled racing in the USA.

[ChaimWitz]

This is a sad day for motorsports. I will never watch an irl race or post again on an irl-cc forum.

Goodbye. Say hi to Sanguin and Paper for me.

[Breeze]

Goodbye. Say hi to Sanguin and Paper for me.
Ditto that from me.

And I'm VERY happy to hear Gerald is in. Car counting can now begin in earnest!

[canada]

Goodbye. Say hi to Sanguin and Paper for me.

At least we can now unify these forums.

Mods: Tear down this wall!

That's the last time I'll ever do a Reagan reference.

[Chaparral66]

PN was quoted in one of RM's stories that he was in favor of a melding of the two series. Mario Andretti, Honda, Ford, Bridgestone/Firestone and other various people have tried through the years to put this back together. Other than a few people I've seen on the boards (and CW), one series seems to be preferable to the great majority.

I'd guess KK has been selected by The Amigos to cut the deal, so he's the man doin' the talkin' here in Indy with the lawyers doin' the lawyerin'.

That said, it's doubtful that the '08 schedule is going to be any work of art. But Nation said in one story that the '09 schedule is a clean sheet of paper. And THAT said, the events hafta be financially feasible. The ones that aren't will go away.

I'm also certain that the melding will not be EXACTLY what every individual fan or poster or car owner or driver wants....simply because they all want something different.......more technical cars, less costly-less technical cars, this venue or that one, turbos or naturally aspirated, a monkey riding on the rear wing when rain tires are used in qualifying, a monkey not riding on the rear wing when rain tires are used in qualifying, etc.

So, assuming it gets done today or over the weekend, I also assume that every individual's ox will be gored in some way. But with one series instead of two, the SPORT wins and has a chance to grow in the sports entertainment marketplace.


IC, I would echo this to a point. A lot of people on both sides of this open wheel coin have expressed ideal views of what a combined series would look like, and not with a whole lot of flexibility. There is no perfection, no is going to be completely satisfied. We've had lemons for a long time, time to make lemonade.

I find it interesting that we've gotten to this point. On a couple of threads last month I debated with Cmdr Keen at length about the benefit of even getting to this point, where the two sides are negotiating. He wasn't sure that combining into one series was the best option, or even a viable one. But really, what other option is there? Try to do what A1GP is trying to do? Nah.

That this is happening now was aggrevatingly, and frustratingly, inevitable. Between the two series, the entire legacy of US open wheel rests, warts and all. But it will take negotiation to bring it together. And I just saw on ESPN.com, that it has. The papers have been signed, and now we await the press conference.

[Breeze]

At least we can now unify these forums.

Mods: Tear down this wall!

That's the last time I'll ever do a Reagan reference.

Does the new IndyCar forum get the intellectual rights and historical records from the ChampCar side? You know, post count, thread count, etc.

[indycool]

Yes, done deal, Chap and we're in "stay tuned" mode. Just IMO, but I doubt that it'll be much different in specific features than what we've heard already.

And, as I said, no ideal for every single person is going to be reached. But overall, the SPORT wins.

[dataman1]

FYI, Champ Car fired all but 5 full-time and 2 part-time employees this afternoon.

[gofastandwynn]

4:53 PM February 22, 2008

IRL-Champ Car merger deal is done, Tony George says
By Curt Cavin
[email:27ifa15s]curt.cavn@indystar.com[/email:27ifa15s]

The leaders of U.S. open-wheel racing unified the sport today.

Indy Racing League officials said a news conference to announce the details of the deal with the owners of the Champ Car World Series will be laid out sometime next week, perhaps at the league’s test at Homestead-Miami (Fla.) Speedway, which begins Wednesday.
“We want to have as positive of a press conference as possible when we do have one,” IRL founder Tony George said. “We don’t want to have questions without answers.”

Still to be resolved are issues regarding Champ Car races that will be on the IRL’s schedule this season. Three are expected (Long Beach, Calif.; Edmonton, Alberta; and Surfers Paradise, Australia) to go with the IRL's 16 previously announced events.

IRL spokesman Fred Nation said George and Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven signed their part of the contract during dinner Thursday night at the Eagle’s Nest restaurant at the Downtown Hyatt Regency hotel, but unification wasn’t complete until Gerald Forsythe, Champ Car’s other majority owner, signed today.

After meeting with George for a couple of hours this morning, Kalkhoven left Indianapolis for his home in California. George decided to fly to Chicago to meet personally with Forsythe.

George contacted his staff at Indianapolis Motor Speedway about 3 p.m. to say the deal was completed, ending 12 years of struggle between the two Indianapolis-based series.

Forsythe could not be reached for comment, but Nation said he was pleased that George, who said he was “anxious” before boarding his company-owned jet, made the trip.

“It had the effect of getting it done,” Nation said of Forsythe’s signing.

Contacted in California, Kalkhoven chose his words carefully, insisting all parties remain under the non-disclosure clause. But he seemed pleased to have the sport unified for the first time since George started the IRL in 1996.

“I am (pleased),” he said.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080222/SPORTS0107/802220517

[Ranger]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080222/SPORTS0107/802220517

I suppose that's it then.

[gofastandwynn]

FYI, Champ Car fired all but 5 full-time and 2 part-time employees this afternoon.

What department were they in? (Safety team, Atlantics?)

[Ruben Barrios]

Sigh... it feels good/bad... for the first time in years I fell I can enjoy racing without hate...

[indycool]

That one oughta be your sig line, Ruben.....and everyone else's......it's been a long time.

[dataman1]

What department were they in? (Safety team, Atlantics?)

The information I received said nothing about Atlantics. Their staus is unknown. As for Safety team, they were all weekend warriors, not full-time staff. My source was tearful and not open to questions.

[Chaparral66]

FYI, Champ Car fired all but 5 full-time and 2 part-time employees this afternoon.

I imagine those still there will help in transition, then let go. Knew this was going to hurt a bit...

[IMSA_Dude]

Knew this was going to hurt a bit...There'd be nothing left to merge if they'd waited any longer; now is when it HAD to happen. Hindsight being 20/20, the judge made the wrong decision in going with the Amigos in '04, and we coulda been four years closer to having healthy AOWR again. Spilled milk... (easy to say when it's not your job that's lost... I really hope there's room on the other side for at least some of the displaced... )

I also hope it doesn't mess up the joint weekends with ALMS too much.

[nigelred5]

There'd be nothing left to merge if they'd waited any longer; now is when it HAD to happen. Hindsight being 20/20, the judge made the wrong decision in going with the Amigos in '04, and we coulda been four years closer to having healthy AOWR again. Spilled milk... (easy to say when it's not your job that's lost... I really hope there's room on the other side for at least some of the displaced... )

I also hope it doesn't mess up the joint weekends with ALMS too much.

Other than Houston being off the board, I doubt it will. They will probably step into the sunday race for RA and hopefully it will otherwise be status quo at Long Beach

[TeamTracy26]

There'd be nothing left to merge if they'd waited any longer; now is when it HAD to happen. Hindsight being 20/20, the judge made the wrong decision in going with the Amigos in '04, and we coulda been four years closer to having healthy AOWR again. Spilled milk... (easy to say when it's not your job that's lost... I really hope there's room on the other side for at least some of the displaced... )

I also hope it doesn't mess up the joint weekends with ALMS too much.

Sigh IMSA_Dude unfortunately as a legal matter I don't think the judge had a choice, the Amigos were offering to salvage the company and contracts owed by CART vs TG was wanting to just get pieces of what was available which would have left some out in the cold and getting nothing in return.

Important thing is DEAL IS DONE!!

I'm sure everyone wants more details of the deal, ie, are there free chassis, engines, CASH as reported. What races will be absorbed into the 2008 Schedule and beyond, and also what of the ChampCar Bankruptcy rumours and contracts currently still signed for ChampCar. Not to put a damper on the day, but I'm sure there are still legal issues for ChampCar to work out.

In all though, I haven't been this excited about racing in a long time!!

[gofastandwynn]

FYI, Champ Car fired all but 5 full-time and 2 part-time employees this afternoon.

Per Robin Miller:


Because Long Beach is operated by Kalkhoven and Forsythe, a skeleton crew of a half-dozen Champ Car employees will be retained through the annual street race fest. The remaining CC staff received four weeks severance pay plus an additional week for every year of service since 2004.

[Ruben Barrios]

"The remaining CC staff received four weeks severance pay plus an additional week for every year of service since 2004. "
Good for them, they deserve at least that much!

[BenRoethig]

Sigh IMSA_Dude unfortunately as a legal matter I don't think the judge had a choice, the Amigos were offering to salvage the company and contracts owed by CART vs TG was wanting to just get pieces of what was available which would have left some out in the cold and getting nothing in return.

Important thing is DEAL IS DONE!!

I'm sure everyone wants more details of the deal, ie, are there free chassis, engines, CASH as reported. What races will be absorbed into the 2008 Schedule and beyond, and also what of the ChampCar Bankruptcy rumours and contracts currently still signed for ChampCar. Not to put a damper on the day, but I'm sure there are still legal issues for ChampCar to work out.

In all though, I haven't been this excited about racing in a long time!!

Working races in races for 2008 is going to be hard. As the remaining legal entity, the races on the current IRL schedule have to happen as planned unless there is a mutual agreement for a change or a venue does not live up to the agreement. Of the races I would like to see salvaged:

April 27-Houston. Kansas Scheduled
May 18 Laguna sec. Conflicts with Indy schedule and Bay area is already served by the more modern Infineon raceway
June 22 Cleveland-Conflicts with Iowa
July 6- Toronto conflicts with Watkins Glen
July 27-Portland-Date Open
August 10th-Road America. Conflicts with Kentucky
September 14,21,28, Oct 5,12,19 are completely open for 2-3 additional races plus the Motegi relocation.
October 26th surfers
November 9 Mexico city

[Placid]

What will happen to the Atlantic Series and their drivers?

[Rogelio]

What will happen to the Atlantic Series and their drivers?

Good point. Let us hope that TG/amigos somehow manage to bring them along. A stronger development league will only make AOWR stronger.

[Chaparral66]

Yes, done deal, Chap and we're in "stay tuned" mode. Just IMO, but I doubt that it'll be much different in specific features than what we've heard already.

And, as I said, no ideal for every single person is going to be reached. But overall, the SPORT wins.

Well, I 'll repeat what I said to you in another room; I'll keep an open mind, but I'm not ready to say the SPORT won yet. The sport crossed a major hurdle that it needed to, and as I said to Cmdr Keen, this is a very important start. But the sport will win, IMHO, when the paying crowds and sponsors come back and the media rediscovers it. A lot of work must be done in the meantime and it will take the combined resources of both camps to work together and resolve certain issues they still face. Until that happens, the jury is out on this deal. The sport is not out of the woods yet, but I remain hopeful.

[indycool]

The sport is ONE now. I don't think the CC teams are going over to the IRL teams with chips on their shoulders. Every quote I've seen so far from any of the car owners or drivers is this is a good thing. When it's one, it's one. If there are issues, it isn't going to be five CC car owners ganging up on seven IRL car owners. They're all Indycar now.

As for people and media, I think you're buying into the baloney about attendance that ws floating around CC boards before. There's a huge amount of media who follow Danica alone, and yes, the SI swimsuit issue with 69 million copies sold and 250 million hits online. And Castroneves won a dance contest with 20 million viewers every week for 10 weeks. You add to this a character who puts his foot to the floor like Paul Tracy and the young competition between Marco Andretti and Graham Rahal, you have more angles to pursue on a bigger plate.

As I've said before, it's no "microwave." It will take every autograph signing, every Peak and Honda and GoDaddy ad with Danica in it, every appearance, every race, every tenth of a rating point and it'll come in small steps. But at least now it has a fighting CHANCE of coming.

[994ever]

Well, I 'll repeat what I said to you in another room; I'll keep an open mind, but I'm not ready to say the SPORT won yet. The sport crossed a major hurdle that it needed to, and as I said to Cmdr Keen, this is a very important start. But the sport will win, IMHO, when the paying crowds and sponsors come back and the media rediscovers it. A lot of work must be done in the meantime and it will take the combined resources of both camps to work together and resolve certain issues they still face. Until that happens, the jury is out on this deal. The sport is not out of the woods yet, but I remain hopeful.

Agreed...except that I don't really hold out much hope.

I find it humorous that the same people who've spent so long saying CC was completely insignificant and that Indy is everything and all are now touting this as some sort of momentus event that will save the sport.

Right now, it looks like it's going to be the IRL with a couple of extra teams and a couple of races, one of which isn't even in North America. We've seen how heartily and readily the American public has accepted the IRL so far, so I see very little reason for optimism.

[Chaparral66]

The sport is ONE now. I don't think the CC teams are going over to the IRL teams with chips on their shoulders. Every quote I've seen so far from any of the car owners or drivers is this is a good thing. When it's one, it's one. If there are issues, it isn't going to be five CC car owners ganging up on seven IRL car owners. They're all Indycar now.

I understand that. I didn't say that CC teams would be coming over with a chip on their shoulder; I agree and am sure they are glad the conflict, for better or for worse, is over. We do indeed (for now) have stability in the sport that is needed if it is to recover from the conflict. We are now, to use a term I explained to Cmdr Keen, in the "reconstruction" period. But while coming together is a big story for which we are all glad, now the fans are waiting to see what this does for the competition. CC teams have to catch up quickly and help make this a show worth seeing.


As for people and media, I think you're buying into the baloney about attendance that ws floating around CC boards before. There's a huge amount of media who follow Danica alone, and yes, the SI swimsuit issue with 69 million copies sold and 250 million hits online. And Castroneves won a dance contest with 20 million viewers every week for 10 weeks. You add to this a character who puts his foot to the floor like Paul Tracy and the young competition between Marco Andretti and Graham Rahal, you have more angles to pursue on a bigger plate.

I agree this certainly adds alot of storylines and obviously that will attract media interest. But the SI swimsuit issue didn't sell 69 million copies or draw 250 million SI website hits just because Danica Patrick was in it; it's always a big issue, to the point where it can stand on its own in addition to regular SI. And just as important, the fact that Helio is an IRL race car driver was secondary to his engaging personality and surprising dancing talent and chemistry with his partner (who is now his girlfriend, I think), which really caught on with the viewers of the dance show. While that broadened the appeal of those two drivers, that in and of itself is not going to pull in more viewers of the new series. It's going to take more than that, such as a focused effort at promotion and marketing, even using the newfound celebrity Patrick and Castroneves, but also others like PT, Graham Rahal, and Tony Kanaan. And there is no baloney that I know of about attendence in open wheel racing, there have been crowd issues for both series for some time now. Yes, there is always debate about this issue but I seriously doubt we'd have gotten to this important juncture with the merger had not this issue been for real in both camps. The fans have made it quite clear for years to stop the war and get back together. Once you do that, then you have to convince them the series worth supporting again.

Improving the show is the best thing they can do. We want to see Paul Tracy rubbing wheels with Tony Canaan, we want to see Graham Rahal exchanging pleasantries with Marco Andretti at the hairpin in Sonoma, and Justin Wilson getting smoked at Texas by Dan Weldon. It's one thing to pay a few bucks or look at the SI website and be pleasantly surprised to see Lady Danica in white bikini and looking cute, or tune in ABC and see Helio cutting a mean rug on the dance floor. It's quite another all together to get the fans of the SI swimsuit issue and Heilo's dance show to pay $60-125 see them competing on the racetrack. Raise the level of competition, and you've got a real shot. -Chap66


As I've said before, it's no "microwave." It will take every autograph signing, every Peak and Honda and GoDaddy ad with Danica in it, every appearance, every race, every tenth of a rating point and it'll come in small steps. But at least now it has a fighting CHANCE of coming.

I agree with you here, of course. To expand a bit further on what I said above, you can't just market with Lady Danica and Helio, that's not enough. I don't want the mainstream media or "casual" fans to come back on just them alone, I want them to return to a series so exciting that it will be hard to ignore. You have to establish rivalries and work on storylines within those rivalries. To do that, you have to allow the drivers to stay in their seats for more than a few races. Let the public get to know them and begin to cheer for them. As you say we do have that chance now, and it's time to get to work.

[jarrambide]

Blancvino, does the sport not win with a unified series, better grids, better competition, everybody at Indy, a better target for sponsors and TV viewers and better positioned for growth as one?

I certainly understand there's been a lot of TG hating over the last 12 years among CART/CC supporters, and to each their own, but I'm not going to quit watching baseball because Bud Selig is the commissioner, nor throw away my fall football Sundays because Roger Goodell is the commissioner, even if I think either one of them are an idiot. Nor did I not watch CC because I can't stand Gentilozzi.

You COULD look at it as, with the way it shakes out, CC is getting all those big IRL teams BACK on the grid with unification.

¿The sport?, ¿or the sport in the US?, we are not the sport, just a part of it.

It is a sad day for many of us, but this was necessary, one had to go away, sadly it was CC, but then again, I disliked many of the street circuits as much as oval racing, perhaps in the future the merger will bring 8 or 9 good circuits.

Too bad Houston is out of the picture, I just lost m local race, will now have an excuse to pay for a trip to Indy.

[bblocker68]

Nice to see you on the boards, Jose. We miss you.

All I can say is, "My name is Barry and I'm a CART fan".

It'll be good to start paving the road to restore things to what it was or will be. I believe we can finally start moving forward.

[jarrambide]

Nice to see you on the boards, Jose. We miss you.

All I can say is, "My name is Barry and I'm a CART fan".

It'll be good to start paving the road to restore things to what it was or will be. I believe we can finally start moving forward.
I have been very busy, new country, new job(plus having to attend a few classes), newlywed, you can say I have a brand new life.


As busy as I have been I couldn´t stop coming back and talking about the unification (at least they are giving us that, the use of the word unification), sad, but hopefully for the best.

[Cart750hp]

I have been very busy, new country, new job(plus having to attend a few classes), newlywed, you can say I have a brand new life.


As busy as I have been I couldn´t stop coming back and talking about the unification (at least they are giving us that, the use of the word unification), sad, but hopefully for the best.

Look who's back!

I agree, we'll hoping for the best of AOWR.

[garyshell]

I have been very busy, new country, new job(plus having to attend a few classes), newlywed, you can say I have a brand new life.


As busy as I have been I couldn´t stop coming back and talking about the unification (at least they are giving us that, the use of the word unification), sad, but hopefully for the best.


Welcome back my friend!!!

Gary

[Mad_Hatter]

Here's hoping for the best racing can offer.

I hope there's good qualifying coverage.

[indycool]

Welcome back, Jose! :)

[Civic]

Does the term "Champ Car" or "Championship Car" figure into the intellectual property that the IRL wanted? I'm wondering if the IRL will keep that "history".

It's my understanding that they were Champ Cars before they became known as IndyCars. I even remember magazines referring to them as Champ Cars in the late 80s/early 90s.

As to the Reynard showcar in Penske livery, I believe it's a traveling display making the rounds at various car dealerships.

[FlatChatRacer]

So the contracts have been signed. Wonderful, finally an end to the split.

In my opinion, it simply came down to finances. Both series are extremely expensive to run, unfortunately Champ Car did not have enough to continue.
It would appear that Kalkhoven and Forsythe could not make the numbers work.

What I find very interesting, is that only Kalkhoven and Forsythe had to sign from Champ Car to complete the unification.

I wonder what Paul Gentilozzi does now?

If he is not involved in the unified series, I hope that the fans, team owners and IndyCar leadership are not too devastated, and can get over him not being around any more!

[dataman1]

Hey, maybe Paulie G-string will get Hustler to sponsor a car in NASCAR. Let him have a shot a destroying another series.

[heelntoe]

So the contracts have been signed. Wonderful, finally an end to the split.

In my opinion, it simply came down to finances. Both series are extremely expensive to run, unfortunately Champ Car did not have enough to continue.
It would appear that Kalkhoven and Forsythe could not make the numbers work.

What I find very interesting, is that only Kalkhoven and Forsythe had to sign from Champ Car to complete the unification.

I wonder what Paul Gentilozzi does now?

If he is not involved in the unified series, I hope that the fans, team owners and IndyCar leadership are not too devastated, and can get over him not being around any more!

They were the majority owners and likely kept PG and DP out of the way. As far as what happens to PG, I hope he fades away for good as he's been a blight on CCWS since he first got involved.

[FIA]

I couldn't actuallly see the CCWS Jerez Race happening, this is good and bad, depending on what TG decides to do with the CCWS Calendar.

[indycool]

Civic, the term "Championship car" comes from the long history of what was officially referred to, starting in the AAA days, as the National Driving Championship. When USAC got sponsors for it, it became the Marlboro Championship Trail and the Citicorp Cup, but they were routinely called "Champ cars."

Long about the time the rear-engine revolution had been completed, old timers called the front-engine Silver Crown cars "Champ Cars" and some do to this day, as the term "Indy cars" started to creep in. CART made "Indy cars official with the PPG Indy Car World Series.

But what we have now is the extension of what was originally called the National Driving Championship.

Know that wasn't your question, and sorry, I don't know your answer.

[FlatChatRacer]

They were the majority owners and likely kept PG and DP out of the way. As far as what happens to PG, I hope he fades away for good as he's been a blight on CCWS since he first got involved.

Why has Mr Gentilozzi been a blight on CCWS since he got involved?

He brought extra cars to the CCWS series, ran and won the Trans Am series, whilst providing advice on the strategic direction of Champ Car.

One could argue that he was a leading light. However, it sounds like you don't agree with that assessment. For some people, like his team, employees, Alex Tagliani, he will be sadly missed!

[BenRoethig]

I couldn't actuallly see the CCWS Jerez Race happening, this is good and bad, depending on what TG decides to do with the CCWS Calendar.

Not a slight to the europeans, but I hope that portion of the schedule is dead and buried.

[jarrambide]

Hello Gary and Indy, is nice to be back.

[jarrambide]

Civic, the term "Championship car" comes from the long history of what was officially referred to, starting in the AAA days, as the National Driving Championship. When USAC got sponsors for it, it became the Marlboro Championship Trail and the Citicorp Cup, but they were routinely called "Champ cars."

Long about the time the rear-engine revolution had been completed, old timers called the front-engine Silver Crown cars "Champ Cars" and some do to this day, as the term "Indy cars" started to creep in. CART made "Indy cars official with the PPG Indy Car World Series.

But what we have now is the extension of what was originally called the National Driving Championship.

Know that wasn't your question, and sorry, I don't know your answer.
I know that nothing can be done for 2008, there is no time to plan anything new, change anything or try to add anything (Long Beach will have a race this year and that date because of contractual obligations and Australia and Canada races where the easiest to add of the interesting races), but what about 2009?

Do any of your friends still in the business know something about the future?, is the idea to keep the same as Indy Racing League?, any chance Indy Car World Series can return?, I miss the name.

Any plans of changing the logo to reflect he fact that there is only one racing league in the US?

[BenRoethig]

I know that nothing can be done for 2008, there is no time to plan anything new, change anything or try to add anything (Long Beach will have a race this year and that date because of contractual obligations and Australia and Canada races where the easiest to add of the interesting races), but what about 2009?

Do any of your friends still in the business know something about the future?, is the idea to keep the same as Indy Racing League?, any chance Indy Car World Series can return?, I miss the name.

Any plans of changing the logo to reflect he fact that there is only one racing league in the US?

Actually it was officially changed to 'Indycar series' a year or two back. I'd be very surprised world didn't get added to the name.

[jarrambide]

Actually it was officially changed to 'Indycar series' a year or two back. I'd be very surprised world didn't get added to the name.


My mistake, I just entered the official web page, hopefully they add the "world" in the title and change the logo a little bit, it has always look like a copy of the MLB logo in my eyes, I´m not saying the "Indy Car World Series" logo was a good one either, but here is a chance (and a good excuse) to have a new logo that looks good, or at least not ugly (like the "ppg Indy Car World Series" or amateurish like "Indy Car").

[Cart750hp]

My mistake, I just entered the official web page, hopefully they add the "world" in the title and change the logo a little bit, it has always look like a copy of the MLB logo in my eyes, I´m not saying the "Indy Car World Series" logo was a good one either, but here is a chance (and a good excuse) to have a new logo that looks good, or at least not ugly (like the "ppg Indy Car World Series" or amateurish like "Indy Car").

Well, how about IRL IndyCar? I think that's what they are using right now. That IRL brand really is what they are selling.

IndyCar World Series will be much a preference to most, I guess.

[jarrambide]

Well, how about IRL IndyCar? I think that's what they are using right now. That IRL brand really is what they are selling.

IndyCar World Series will be much a preference to most, I guess.

IRL is the governing body, no need to change that name, "Indy Car World Series" would be the series name, just like "C.A.R.T." was the governing body and "PPG Indy Car World Series" was the series name (and just like "Indy Car Series" is the series name now).

And the logo, I just don´t like logos that look like a copy of a better known logo.

[indycool]

Near as I can tell, Jose, that's all huddled up down at 16th and Georgetown. I've read newspaper stories and other comments all morning and one thing that's come out is that a series sponsor is likely for '09. That could change the name, I suppose.

FCR, Mr. Gentilozzi brought us the Motorock debacle, the Puerto Rico race debacle, the Las Vegas race debacle, killed the Trans-Am Series after he won enough races to break Donohue's record and has been reported to be a rather slow pay on his bills......read earlier that he owed Tagliani from three years ago. Plus apparently, his contacts within the industry led him to a skin mag sponsorship that Forsythe killed out of poor taste. He had musical drivers with musical money throughout the four years of CC, in and out of the seats regularly. If that's considered "blight" by some, I can understand.

[djparky]

hurrah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

about bloody time someone sorted this out- add in Surfers Paradise, Long Beach, Road America, Cleveland, Portland, Toronto and Laguna Seca to the current IRL schedule and I'll be happy with that- a great mix of road/street tracks and ovals- just like it should be

don't care who runs it, just get on with the racing- Penske v NHL v Ganassi v Forsythe v Andretti Green v PKV etc etc

[Easy Drifter]

IC and others. I can recall the cars being referred to as champ cars in the early 50's.It normally was applied to the upright or dirt cars but the roadsters were just coming into general paved use.

[VkmSpouge]

I'm very happy about the merger between the IRL and Champ Cars. First time in years I've gotten excited about American open wheel racing. Hopefully the series will grow but 2008 will be time to start re-building.

[DazzlaF1]

So im wondering, what does this mean for the IRL, does it mean we're going to see 26-28 car grids?

[BenRoethig]

So im wondering, what does this mean for the IRL, does it mean we're going to see 26-28 car grids?

It means with just the teams that have announced they're coming over, they're going to have to trim some fat or bump some cars come qualifying.

[Mad_Hatter]

Id think smaller teams would be smart to pool resources.

[OWFan19]

I am curious where our buddy Sanquin has been. I would like to hear his comments about all of this.


Good thing for the sport. I feel bad for some good folks at Champ Car. Now its time to race.

[OWFan19]

Id think smaller teams would be smart to pool resources.

Yep, some of the Indy One offs better realize that they are at a bigger dissadvantage now. Maybe they could join with the smaller CC teams.

[F1boat]

At last. Now I hope that it will become a strong and popular series again.

[BobbyC]

I'm not sure it's complete yet. Late last month, an attempt by HD Partners to acquire the professional racing division of the National Hot Rod Association announced in May fell through.

[Cart750hp]

I am curious where our buddy Sanquin has been. I would like to hear his comments about all of this.

Oh no, you did not ask for his opinion.


Good thing for the sport. I feel bad for some good folks at Champ Car. Now its time to race.

Can't wait to see NHR, Penske, PKV, Ganassi, Rahal, PCM (yes they said they are going to IRL not Stock cars), Conquest, Vision, Walker, etc. all in one race. That's what we've been looking forward to.

[spiritone]

Gee! Does this mean that there will actually be some posters in the irl forum.







Champcar, THE BEST.

[Cart750hp]

Champcar, THE BEST.

WAS.

[edv]

WAS.

Might yet be. Let's see where this goes in a few years. If they get good sponsor money and another engine builder and if they start cranking up the RPMs again and open the rules a bit to attract bright engineers, who knows?

My perspective is that the IRL did not win a war...and CC did not lose a war...but that they just saved each other's lives.

[nanders]

Not a slight to the europeans, but I hope that portion of the schedule is dead and buried.

Ben I agree. The ICS should not run on tracks like Jerez. They are more motogp style and a little too mickey mouse for Indy Cars. I know F1 was once there but really this track is not a match.

[nanders]

IRL is the governing body, no need to change that name, "Indy Car World Series" would be the series name, just like "C.A.R.T." was the governing body and "PPG Indy Car World Series" was the series name (and just like "Indy Car Series" is the series name now).

And the logo, I just don´t like logos that look like a copy of a better known logo.

Well .... having the word "world" in there sounds like an association with the FIA or F1 or other sports that need to sound self important in that regard. "Indy Car" is all that needs to be said. Hence http://www.indycar.com/.

[lucidmez]

2008 is looking like a good transitional year for America in many ways. We're not here for a political debate, though, so I'll stick to my opinions on racing. I personally like the Champ Car model better than IRL's heavily laden oval calendar and I'm not too excited about their car, either, but I think this is a great, and perhaps inevitable, conclusion to the open wheeled racing split. I mean things were not going well for either side so hopefully everyone can get back to working on one great product. I'm looking forward to seeing races with a truly full field of cars. And if we can deal with Bernie I suppose we can get past Tony. I'm sure this year will be somewhat of a mess but if all involved start looking to the future there is hope. My hope is that the decision to merge comes with a decision to make changes for a new and better series because I don't think even all the great teams racing together again is enough to prop up the IRL in it's current format. I'm curious to know what everyone's wish list is for the new IRL.

Here is mine:
•A diverse schedule between street/road/oval (much less emphasis on oval)
•An international race schedule
•A new, more agile car (personally, I think the GP2 Dallara is a more exciting race car than the IRL Dallara (it's obviously an oval track car).

•A good race weekend format.
I've never watched the IRL format so I can't give my opinion but I've read there is a single car qualifying followed by a shootout at road & street courses. Single car qualifying is understandable on an oval but I don't think it makes any sense on a road or street course.
•A good blend of competitive and fan friendly rules. For example, I like the 2 tire program with soft and hards that even F1 picked up on.

I know it sounds like I'm hoping the IRL will become more like what CART was and I suppose that would be a fair assessment. I see it like this. Without diversity this doesn't work. The IRL as a strictly oval series will fail, that's why they've introduced road and street tracks over the last few years. There is no way they'd give up the Indy 500 (and rightly so) and it doesn't make sense (to me) to have only one oval race. I think street courses provide a great spectacle and fan experience for the sport (think Long Beach, Surfers Paradise & F1's Monaco). It's a great blend but the bottom line always comes down to how is the racing. Formula 1 with all the money they spend on technology and world class facilities (though I think some of their new tracks are rather flat and boring) can still churn out some boring races. It has to be about more than the car, the track, or even the drivers. It's about the racing and the fans. Let's get over the divorce and look ahead to the new union. I'm excited about the possibilities.

[chuck34]

Indy and others: If I'm thinking straight, and remebering right they have been called "champ cars" for quite some time. I belive it was sometime in the 60's that they actually had three championships, one for dirt, one for asphalt, and a national championship. The dirt champ. was silver crown, the asphalt champ. was gold crown, then the combined was the national champ. The USAC "big" cars sort of adopted the silver crown name after there were no longer any front engined cars at Indy. The gold crown name just went away.

[jimispeed]

Indy and others: If I'm thinking straight, and remebering right they have been called "champ cars" for quite some time. I belive it was sometime in the 60's that they actually had three championships, one for dirt, one for asphalt, and a national championship. The dirt champ. was silver crown, the asphalt champ. was gold crown, then the combined was the national champ. The USAC "big" cars sort of adopted the silver crown name after there were no longer any front engined cars at Indy. The gold crown name just went away.


I would love if they went to one dirt track every year!! In different cars obviously.

It would be too dangerous though??

[indycool]

Chuck34, you're pretty much right on. For awhile, the Silver Crown cars were called "Championship Dirt Cars" before they became Silver Crown and that's when they became known, in short, as "Champ cars." I have a friend who works on 'em and still calls 'em Champ Cars.

[chuck34]

Indy: I know lots of guys that still call them Champ cars. Pretty much anyone I know that works on them actually. I don't think they call that new (now dead) thing a Champ car though.

Jimi: I would love to see dirt tracks as part of the championship. ARCA does it, why not Indy Cars? They would have to come up with some sort of new car.

Also, maybe that could be a chance to sort of bring this whole deal together, and apease some of the haters. Have duel championships this year. Basically run the IRL and ChampCar schedules. Call the IRL champ the gold crown and the ChampCar the silver crown (buy the rights from USAC for a year, or just come up with other names). All the points would be the same, guys could cross over, count Indy as double points. Then at the end of the year award a national champion. And start all over next year.

[jimispeed]

Indy: I know lots of guys that still call them Champ cars. Pretty much anyone I know that works on them actually. I don't think they call that new (now dead) thing a Champ car though.

Jimi: I would love to see dirt tracks as part of the championship. ARCA does it, why not Indy Cars? They would have to come up with some sort of new car.

Also, maybe that could be a chance to sort of bring this whole deal together, and apease some of the haters. Have duel championships this year. Basically run the IRL and ChampCar schedules. Call the IRL champ the gold crown and the ChampCar the silver crown (buy the rights from USAC for a year, or just come up with other names). All the points would be the same, guys could cross over, count Indy as double points. Then at the end of the year award a national champion. And start all over next year.


Wow!! THAT would be cool!!!!!

[lucidmez]

Indy: I know lots of guys that still call them Champ cars. Pretty much anyone I know that works on them actually. I don't think they call that new (now dead) thing a Champ car though.

Jimi: I would love to see dirt tracks as part of the championship. ARCA does it, why not Indy Cars? They would have to come up with some sort of new car.

Also, maybe that could be a chance to sort of bring this whole deal together, and apease some of the haters. Have duel championships this year. Basically run the IRL and ChampCar schedules. Call the IRL champ the gold crown and the ChampCar the silver crown (buy the rights from USAC for a year, or just come up with other names). All the points would be the same, guys could cross over, count Indy as double points. Then at the end of the year award a national champion. And start all over next year.

Not a bad idea. It would give them some time to sort it out. Unfortunately, I don't think Champ Car has the resources to run this year. If they did I don't think we would be having a unification discussion.

[F1boat]

I'd love to see more powerful cars, a la CART circa late 90-ies. I prefer to see 50 or 60% ovals, but also road courses + Long Beach. Mostly American shedule. I don't want a F1-clone.

[ezhop7]

Gentlemen,

The Inycar schedule for 2008 is going to be run on tracks that the IRL is contracted to run. Remember at the end of the day it is a business. The 1 1/2 tracks will not go ahead because they are a good show especially TEXAS. I believe 2009 will bring back Cleveland and maybe Toronto or Houston.

I would love a race in Colorado Springs or Denver, but I think it will not happen in the near future. Since the series must grow, while keeping cost within check I predict the 2009 season having only 20 races at the most.

[FlatChatRacer]

FCR, Mr. Gentilozzi brought us the Motorock debacle, the Puerto Rico race debacle, the Las Vegas race debacle, killed the Trans-Am Series after he won enough races to break Donohue's record and has been reported to be a rather slow pay on his bills......read earlier that he owed Tagliani from three years ago. Plus apparently, his contacts within the industry led him to a skin mag sponsorship that Forsythe killed out of poor taste. He had musical drivers with musical money throughout the four years of CC, in and out of the seats regularly. If that's considered "blight" by some, I can understand.

Indycool,

Thank you for that. Interesting how we can have different perceptions of people. When I was trying to put a deal together between my bank and Champ Car, Paul Gentilozzi was one the person's who we dealt with.

He was very friendly and amiable. He was never rude to us.

[BenRoethig]

Might yet be. Let's see where this goes in a few years. If they get good sponsor money and another engine builder and if they start cranking up the RPMs again and open the rules a bit to attract bright engineers, who knows?

The reason they couldn't get those is beacause the continent Champ Car did most of racing on was not interested in a european-type open wheel series which is what Champ Car (not CART) was. If NASCAR was to buy say DTM and then change to conform to more or less the rules of the cup series, get rid of most of the road courses, and then replace all the drivers with either developmental drivers or washouts does anyone think it would stand a remote chance of suceeding? The reason Champ car didn't have sponsors because it just wasn't a viable series the way they wanted to run it.


My perspective is that the IRL did not win a war...and CC did not lose a war...but that they just saved each other's lives.
Oh, they lost the war big time, so did CART, and so did Tony George. When it comes right down to it neither the IRL as orignally concieved nor Champ as run the last couple of years had any business existing. When it comes right down to it, the last 12 years has been about
arrogance and egos. Tony was arrogant enought to think he could sell a big spring car series and the three amigos were arrogant enough to think they could succeed where everyone else, including Bernie had failed miserably. In all cases, the verdict was clear, with the exception of the Indy500, American Open Wheel fans didn't want what either party was trying to sell.

In the end we lost our fan base, sponsors, manufactuers, Tony Stewart, Casey Mears, A.J. Allmendinger, Kasey Kahne, Sam Hornish, Dario Franchitti, the returns of Jaques Villenuve and Juan Montoya, and quite possibly Scott Speed. The France family and NASCAR got them all and are laughing all the way to the bank about it.