Would Rubens have won a championship? [Archive]

FIA

16th February 2008, 20:09

f1kid1987

16th February 2008, 20:18

Yeh if schmacher was ignured agian. i think he would of at least being challening for championships but when he signed for them he condiced the title cause he was alwasys gona give way at ferrai and suppotr schumacher. But no one gives him any credit for what he done hes a great driver its a shame he wont win the title but at hopefully he can win hes home gp which hes diein to do.

V12

16th February 2008, 20:20

In 2002 and 2004 yes - although other years I doubt it.

petrolhead ben

16th February 2008, 21:16

I think he could of although I personally don't think he was as good as shumi. He showed his class on a couple of occasions when he was at ferrari. Silverstone 2003 must be his finest race. He was awesome that day, because the way he set people up to pass them and pulled off some stunning moves, two on kimi. As for a championship though I'm not quite sure over a season.

Tazio

16th February 2008, 21:43

In 2004 he would have won with ease.
That car was so far ahead of the field!

Nikki Katz

16th February 2008, 23:05

If he was the undisputed Ferrari no. 1 then he'd have at least two championships ('02 & '04) as he was second only to Schumacher in those anyway. I think he'd be quite good for '01 too as I think with the team behind him he should have been able to keep ahead of Coulthard. 2003 probably would have gone to either Raikkonen or Montoya though, I think that Ferrari really needed someone better than Barrichello to get away with winning that one.

wmcot

17th February 2008, 01:54

In 2002 and 2004 yes - although other years I doubt it.

I have to agree with that. I wonder if he would have won in 1999 if he had been in Eddie Irvine's place (and if he had more experience at that time, of course.)

Valve Bounce

17th February 2008, 02:12

Maybe if he had moved to Renault three years ago, he would have been a contender, just like Marlon Brando.

maxu05

17th February 2008, 02:20

He is under rated IMO. Given the right machinery, he would be a contender any year, but, we say this about other drivers as well.

F1boat

17th February 2008, 07:51

I think that he would have needed a really dominant car, like 02 or 04 and some luck.

inimitablestoo

17th February 2008, 13:29

In 2002 and 2004 yes - although other years I doubt it.Seems to be the majority opinion, and I agree. Especially because it's likely Ferrari would have promoted Massa or Badoer to the second seat and neither would have given Rubens a challenge. Massa now, yes, but not in those early days of his F1 career.

ottostreet

17th February 2008, 14:59

wouldn't this be an ironic thread if rubens won the championship this year?

Daniel

17th February 2008, 15:33

jso1985

17th February 2008, 18:42

I always wonder how could it had been if Stewart had stayed in F1 with Rubens, by 1999 both were really close to get a win.

truefan72

17th February 2008, 18:53

probably, but I've never been too sure how he does under pressure, or when it really counts if he would deliver. He has had some very good races and some outstanding performances, but would he have been able to keep it up all year. Would he have managed the frontrunner status along with the pressure well?

It all remains to be seen, but in the end I think he might and I enphasizie might, have won a WDC

Valve Bounce

18th February 2008, 00:47

wouldn't this be an ironic thread if rubens won the championship this year?

Yeah!! I'd have to jump into Albert Park Lake, fully clothed, head first :(

Valve Bounce

18th February 2008, 00:48

I always wonder how could it had been if Stewart had stayed in F1 with Rubens, by 1999 both were really close to get a win.

We're talking about the championship here, not winning just one race. :rolleyes:

Garry Walker

18th February 2008, 21:50

wouldn't this be an ironic thread if rubens won the championship this year?

Rubens winning the title this year is as likely as Gordon Brown doing something sensible

jens

18th February 2008, 22:01

wouldn't this be an ironic thread if rubens won the championship this year?

Well, Rubens could be a strong contender for the WDC if we count positions starting with the last one. :crazy:

Roamy

19th February 2008, 05:55

if a frog had a glass ass would he hop only once????

Rubens wouldn't hop at all!!

ArrowsFA1

19th February 2008, 08:18

Lets say, if Michael Schumacher got injured again in between 2000-2005 and Rubens had taken the Number One seat, would he have the ability to win a Formula One World Championship, or would he still just be a race winner?

Cause I think he dosen't get the credit he deserves, he should have left Ferrari as soon as he started to win a few races.
Rubens had the ability to win races, and when he was with Ferrari he also had the car to do so, so I'd guess if MS had been out for a year or so then maybe RB could have won a title, but he never struck me as someone who could lead and inspire a team in the way MS did. After all, Ferrari didn't sign him to win titles.

Osella

19th February 2008, 20:30

I think that Rubens (apt, considering that he will become the most experienced driver very soon) is exactly the same as Riccardo Patrese.

Precocious youngster, fast in smaller teams, fast enough to win races and to push a lead driver to their highest level, but enjoys the racing too much, and is a nice guy who just likes the wins but doesn't, as Arrows says, have the drive and ambition perhaps to push a team towards titles.

However, I do think that had he been at Ferrari and Schumacher been injured as in 1999 then he could have won in 2002 and '04, but not totally convinced as he didn't dominate the other drivers (besides MS) in the championship in 2002, despite the car being very good.

fandango

19th February 2008, 21:39

I've never thought Barrichello was that good. He has had his special days, but he doesn't really have the mental strength to be a world champion. He was brought in at Ferrari because Irvine had had enough of playing second fiddle, whose moment in the limelight when Schumacher broke his leg gave him the chance to negotiate a nice package with Jaguar. Rubens seems like a really nice guy, but seems easily out-fazed by wiley team-mates. I'd say he was sick as a dog to see Massa win in Brazil. However, my sympathy's limited - he's been well paid....

tinchote

21st February 2008, 11:19

In 2002 and 2004 yes - although other years I doubt it.

My thoughs exactly.

woody2goody

23rd February 2008, 03:16

He won't win the championship anyway because even if Honda were the best team Jenson would probably beat him.

Although he's one of my favourite drivers, he didn't take it to Schumacher as often as he should, and when he was quick, he wasn't allowed to win.

I tell you, after watching him dominate the whole weekend in Austria '02, I felt sick and angry after what Ferrari did to him. They may has well have had one car in the race because you knew it (RB giving way to Schumi) would happen in nearly every race even at the start of the season.

I bet Rubens also feels sick because for once Ferrari have let their drivers race each other fairly and now he's not there!

Tazio

23rd February 2008, 03:21

now he's not there!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh................................. ............maybe
thats why the Ferrari drivers are allowed to race each other?

Osella

23rd February 2008, 12:01

I bet Rubens also feels sick because for once Ferrari have let their drivers race each other fairly and now he's not there!

However, at times when they had a clear advantage, Michael was instructed to hold station behind Rubens too (Italy 2004 springs immediately to mind!), so that (Austria 2002) argument was valid at the time, but has long since become irrelevant.

Also, in 2005 with the poor Bridgestone tyres, where was Rubens? If the car wasn't right, he wasn't right. He could just not do what Schumacher could with the car, so why should the team not support Michael. Had Rubens come into the team and proven just as quick, I think that it would have been a very different story (as it was in 1992 with Mansell, when Patrese was given team orders on more than one occasion to stay/drop behind Mansell), however Michael put his effort in to the team from 1996 to 1999 so it was only fair at that point to ask Rubens to support Michael. Following that, as Patrese and Alesi vs Mansell and Prost before them, he had his days where he was clearly faster than Michael, but never consistently enough to be a championship contender in his own right.

As I said before he did not, even when Ferrari had the best/best equal car in the championship, put himself in a title-contending position, or exceed the car/tyre's boundaries in the trickier races like China and Japan '05 nearly often enough..

woody2goody

23rd February 2008, 21:40

I agree with everything you said about Rubens in relation to Michael, but I'm more inclined to question the team's attitude to when and why they favoured Michael.

If they'd have let them race fairly for the first 10 races, and then if Michael emerges in front, by all means let him win. But I had issues with them doing it in the 6th or 7th race, when Michael had won I think 4 of the first 6 already, and they were enjoying a gigantic car advantage that season (2002).

Jimmy Magnusson

24th February 2008, 01:55

He could have won in 2002 or 2004 had Michael gone off and had another accident, but Rubens really isn't good enough. In that situation I would have been more confident in a number of other drivers (perhaps Mika Salo or Tom Kristensen, or why not someone like Stephane Sarrazin).

jso1985

24th February 2008, 20:10

We're talking about the championship here, not winning just one race. :rolleyes:

Sure, but by 1999 both Stewart and Barrichello were starting to get things right, so I guess that by 2001 they might have had a championship material car

Valve Bounce

25th February 2008, 05:42

Sure, but by 1999 both Stewart and Barrichello were starting to get things right, so I guess that by 2001 they might have had a championship material car

And if I go down to the newsagent tomorrow and bought a lottery ticket, I'd have the same chance of winning millions too. :rolleyes:

Tazio

25th February 2008, 05:47

And if I go down to the newsagent tomorrow and bought a lottery ticket, I'd have the same chance of winning millions too. :rolleyes: In the immortal words of Jackson Browne, you truely are "Eleven on a scale of ten"!

jens

25th February 2008, 10:07

Sure, but by 1999 both Stewart and Barrichello were starting to get things right, so I guess that by 2001 they might have had a championship material car

Actually I don't think Stewart would have become a title contender even if they had stayed in F1, far from that. 1999 was a 'strange' season, when behind McLaren and Ferrari a lot of teams struggled (like Supertec-powered Williams and Benetton), which enabled Jordan and Stewart to enjoy their best seasons in F1. I guess that like Jordan, 1999 would have nevertheless marked the highpoint of Stewart's F1 campaign. Already 2000 showed that the new Jaguar team had dropped backwards. New season's results are more or less influenced by the development done during the previous year and 2000 Jaguar was still largely a 'Stewart car'.

SGWilko

25th February 2008, 10:28

Actually I don't think Stewart would have become a title contender even if they had stayed in F1, far from that. 1999 was a 'strange' season, when behind McLaren and Ferrari a lot of teams struggled (like Supertec-powered Williams and Benetton), which enabled Jordan and Stewart to enjoy their best seasons in F1. I guess that like Jordan, 1999 would have nevertheless marked the highpoint of Stewart's F1 campaign. Already 2000 showed that the new Jaguar team had dropped backwards. New season's results are more or less influenced by the development done during the previous year and 2000 Jaguar was still largely a 'Stewart car'.

I think the purchase of SGP by Ford, and the blue oval's inability to install a manager who could stay in his position more than 5 mins saw to the Jaguar teams decline and eventual self implosion.......

woody2goody

25th February 2008, 20:48

Actually I don't think Stewart would have become a title contender even if they had stayed in F1, far from that. 1999 was a 'strange' season, when behind McLaren and Ferrari a lot of teams struggled (like Supertec-powered Williams and Benetton), which enabled Jordan and Stewart to enjoy their best seasons in F1. I guess that like Jordan, 1999 would have nevertheless marked the highpoint of Stewart's F1 campaign. Already 2000 showed that the new Jaguar team had dropped backwards. New season's results are more or less influenced by the development done during the previous year and 2000 Jaguar was still largely a 'Stewart car'.

But I think it's sometimes forgotten that in 1999 Jordan finished 3rd in the championship when only one driver was on form (Frentzen). If Hill had got the same results as HHF, they would have been quite close to McLaren and Ferrari. The '99 Jordan was a very very good car.

Stewart had a good '99, but 14 points of their total came in one freak race (Nurburgring). I think they were on a similar overall level to Benetton, if not behind them and Williams.

woody2goody

25th February 2008, 20:51

Also, in 2005 with the poor Bridgestone tyres, where was Rubens? If the car wasn't right, he wasn't right. He could just not do what Schumacher could with the car, so why should the team not support Michael.

Agreed, but last year he performed quite well for the first half of the season against Button in a terrible car, much worse than the '05 Ferrari which could at least score regular points/podiums.

Valve Bounce

26th February 2008, 01:16

Agreed, but last year he performed quite well for the first half of the season against Button in a terrible car, much worse than the '05 Ferrari which could at least score regular points/podiums.

Let's be honest here (including me), nobody could have done well in last years Honda.

woody2goody

26th February 2008, 01:49

Let's be honest here (including me), nobody could have done well in last years Honda.

Agreed, that's why it doesn't bode well for Super Aguri.

Osella

28th February 2008, 23:03

Yeah, trying to chase sponsors when your new car is guaranteed to be worse than the last one, and you team has no guaranteed future...hmm...

Garry Walker

29th February 2008, 14:19

I think that Rubens (apt, considering that he will become the most experienced driver very soon) is exactly the same as Riccardo Patrese.

Except he was never accused of killing a fellow racer.

BenRoethig

29th February 2008, 14:28

If the ridiculous #1/#2 distinction had not existed and then would have been given equal equipment and opportunity, I think he probably would have won a championship.

Garry Walker

29th February 2008, 14:40

If the ridiculous #1/#2 distinction had not existed and then would have been given equal equipment and opportunity, I think he probably would have won a championship.

Tell me smart-ass, when was he not given equal opportunity or equipment?

BenRoethig

29th February 2008, 15:51

Tell me smart-ass, when was he not given equal opportunity or equipment?

The multiple times he was ordered to either give up the lead or stay behind Schumacher.

Garry Walker

29th February 2008, 15:54

The multiple times he was ordered to either give up the lead or stay behind Schumacher.

List those instances, please.

Schumacher was given that order more times than Barrichello, actually.

SGWilko

29th February 2008, 15:57

List those instances, please.

Schumacher was given that order more times than Barrichello, actually.

I only recall Mikey being asked to let Irv (speedy) go by in his championship losing year. ;)

Oh, and not forgetting Indy, that infamous dead heat, but I think Mike was responding to voices on that one methinks. (IMO)

Garry Walker

29th February 2008, 16:01

I only recall Mikey being asked to let Irv (speedy) go by in his championship losing year. ;)

Oh, and not forgetting Indy, that infamous dead heat, but I think Mike was responding to voices on that one methinks. (IMO)

Hungary 2002, Monza 2002, Italy 2004. In all those races Schumacher was quicker, but didn`t challenge Barrichello and let him win.

SGWilko

29th February 2008, 16:07

Hungary 2002, Monza 2002, Italy 2004. In all those races Schumacher was quicker, but didn`t challenge Barrichello and let him win.

One assumes that he didn't need to. Was Mike ahead of RB in any of the examples you cite, a la Austria 200? when RB was quicker in about every session and the race, but had to cede to his team mate?

Garry Walker

29th February 2008, 16:14

One assumes that he didn't need to. Was Mike ahead of RB in any of the examples you cite, a la Austria 200? when RB was quicker in about every session and the race, but had to cede to his team mate?

No, but in 2 of the 3 races I mentioned, Schumacher lifted off on a straightline and braked earlier to avoid overtaking Rubens, who was coming out of pits.

Osella

29th February 2008, 18:59

That was not specific team orders in either case, but from late 2002 to 2005 both drivers were able to race each other up until the final pitstops, then instructed to hold station and preserve the car if both running in consecutive positions.

jso1985

1st March 2008, 03:31

List those instances, please.

Schumacher was given that order more times than Barrichello, actually.

Maybe, but it seemed like anytime Barrichello was faster than Schumacher he was not allowed to win over him if Michael wasn't the champion for that season yet.

And it was quite obvious Rubens was forced to be number 2, still with equal opportunities I don't think he could have beaten Schumacher to the title

Valve Bounce

2nd March 2008, 11:44

Getting back to the topic, I don't think Rubens will have a ghost of a chance of winning a race this year.

In fact, I just wonder who thinks he will :confused:

Garry Walker

2nd March 2008, 13:25

Maybe, but it seemed like anytime Barrichello was faster than Schumacher he was not allowed to win over him if Michael wasn't the champion for that season yet.

Name those instances where Rubens was faster than Michael and wasn`t allowed to win, besides Austria 2002 (but even then their racepace was equal, RB didn`t manage to create any sort of a gap to MS)

jso1985

3rd March 2008, 20:10

Rollo

3rd March 2008, 23:58

2000 - Whilsy Barichello didn't do worse than 4th on track, both McLarens consistently tramped around in 2nd and 3rd. Either one or the other would have filled the top spot.
2001 - Schumacher was so far out in front that daylight finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th. No idea on this one.
2002 - Apart from Malaysia and Monaco, Ferrari took the board. Likely.
2003 - Raikkonen missed out by 2 points in worse machinery than the Williams. Raikkonen has subsequently won a WDC which proves he has/had the potential. Possibly Raikkonen for WDC?
2004 - With the amount of 1-2s Ferrari had, the car was superlative. Most likely.
2005 - Two Renaults, two McLarens and two Toyotas finished ahead of him. Not a hope in Hades.

6 years - Some likelys, A No Way and a too close to call. On reflection...

Probably yes.

ArrowsFA1

11th March 2008, 08:42

I don't know about winning a championship but if James Allen (http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&PO_ID=41893) is right:
If Super Aguri don’t make it through this year, watch out for Honda replacing Barrichello with Takuma Sato, once the Brazilian has passed Riccardo Patrese’s record of 256 grand prix starts. then why not replace him with Sato now?

Either Honda have faith in Rubens as a driver who can do a good job for them or they don't, and if they don't a team in their position can't carry a driver out of sentiment.

Daniel

11th March 2008, 08:58

If James Allen is right? :confused: I never thought I'd hear those words :p

ArrowsFA1

11th March 2008, 09:00

:laugh: Well I did say IF :p

Garry Walker

3rd April 2008, 17:41

Austria 2001, when had to gave up his 2nd place. and there might be more but my memory ain't that good.

Of course most of the times, Schumacher was faster anyway so no need for any orders to Barrichello, but those 2 GP's clearly show that Ferrari had a clear number 1 driver policy.

Indy, Hungary and Monza 2002, also Malaysia 1999 prove the opposite.

Rubens was NEVER stopped from taking a win, aside from the obviously embarrassing 2002. In fact, he was gifted that win back many times by MS.

inimitablestoo

4th April 2008, 16:59

Indy, Hungary and Monza 2002, also Malaysia 1999 prove the opposite.

Of course, those four races all occurred after Michael had either won the championship, or was no longer in contention for it. In that sense, they prove nothing.

Tazio

4th April 2008, 20:05

Getting back to the topic, I don't think Rubens will have a ghost of a chance of winning a race this year.

In fact, I just wonder who thinks he will :confused:
Maybe the most accomplished pilot of the current crop
El Espana Loco :p :

ten-tenths

7th April 2008, 10:30

common guys we all know schumacher benefited greatly from his #1 status. it also doesn't hurt that he was tremendously gifted as well but there were times when he was helped by his teammate to win the championship. i will even contend that if JPM while he was in BMW, could have won the WDC that one year if he had shumi jr's help as well.

Ranger

7th April 2008, 11:03

I don't know about winning a championship but if James Allen (http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&PO_ID=41893) is right: then why not replace him with Sato now?

Either Honda have faith in Rubens as a driver who can do a good job for them or they don't, and if they don't a team in their position can't carry a driver out of sentiment.

For Barrichello, this hasn't anything to do with faith or sentiment.

Remember that Honda simply want their man Sato on the grid. They showed it when they cobbled together some 4-year-old arrows chassis' in 2006 to make a team for Sato when he had no drive (because he was blown away by Button when given the chance. Barrichello>Sato by a long way). Using that example, it follows logic that if Super Aguri folded then Honda would step in somehow.

You're right - The team can't carry a driver out of sentiment. And therefore Sato shouldn't be let near that Honda seat for '09.