Ex-Open Wheelers' qualifying pathetic at Daytona 500

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Tony Stewart - - - Qualified 6th - - - former IndyCar Champion

Juan Pablo Montoya - - - Qualified 15th - - - Indy 500 Champion, CART Champion Formula 1 World Champion

Sam Hornish Jr. - - - Qualified 19th - - - Indy 500 Champion, 3 Time IndyCar Champion

John Andretti - - - Qualified 22nd - - - CART and Indy 500 driver

Robby Gordon - - - Qualified 26th - - - CART, IRL and Indy 500 driver

J.J. Yeley - - - Qualified 37th - - - IRL and Indy 500 driver

Dario Franchitti - - - Qualified 40th - - IRL Champion, Indy 500 Champion

A.J. Allmendinger - - - DNQ - - - CCWS driver, Atlantics Champion, CCWS Rookie of the Year

Patrick Carpentier - - - DNQ - - - CART driver, IRL and Indy 500 driver

Jacques Villeneuve - - - DNQ - - - Indy 500 Champion, CART Champion, Formula 1 World Champion, CART Rookie of the Year


pretty sad showing for the open wheel guys going from "fighter jets" to "B-52 bombers"

[Chaparral66]

Tony Stewart - - - Qualified 6th - - - former IndyCar Champion

Juan Pablo Montoya - - - Qualified 15th - - - Indy 500 Champion, CART Champion Formula 1 World Champion

Sam Hornish Jr. - - - Qualified 19th - - - Indy 500 Champion, 3 Time IndyCar Champion

John Andretti - - - Qualified 22nd - - - CART and Indy 500 driver

Robby Gordon - - - Qualified 26th - - - CART, IRL and Indy 500 driver

J.J. Yeley - - - Qualified 37th - - - IRL and Indy 500 driver

Dario Franchitti - - - Qualified 40th - - IRL Champion, Indy 500 Champion

A.J. Allmendinger - - - DNQ - - - CCWS driver, Atlantics Champion, CCWS Rookie of the Year

Patrick Carpentier - - - DNQ - - - CART driver, IRL and Indy 500 driver

Jacques Villeneuve - - - DNQ - - - Indy 500 Champion, CART Champion, Formula 1 World Champion, CART Rookie of the Year


pretty sad showing for the open wheel guys going from "fighter jets" to "B-52 bombers"

I'm surprised at you, ChiCrew. Not exactly charitable, are we? Tony Stewart qualified in the top ten, right where he's supposed to. JPM qualifying 15th is actually very respectable, given this is his second year. Yikes, he out qualified Daytona veterans such as Kurt Busch, Kyle Petty, and Dale Jarrett, so he doesn't need to apologize for that. Sam Hornish is with a new team and car added to the Penske stable, and he's still getting his feet wet. But he's in and folks like Ken Schrader are going home. John Andretti? His car had never even seen wind tunnel time but a savvy drive got him in the race. Robby Gordon is a living NASCAR relic in that he is the only independent owner-driver in Sprint Cup racing who just made yet another car brand change to Dodge, working with the Everenham team, and he got in despite long odds. JJ Yeley is luck to have gotten in since his Toyota team doesn't nearly have the resources that the Gibbs team (Toyota) has. Dario Franchitti is a real rookie who's barely had sufficient seat time but he made the show while former Daytona 500 winner Bill Elliott will be watching the race from home. Canadians Jacques Villeneuve and Patrick Carpentier got caught up in a wreck that was not their fault; but they were driving very well and had a chance to make the show until victimized by someone else's mistake. AJ Allmendinger is still getting the hang of this Sprint Cup thing but his Red Bull Toyota teammate Brian Vickers qualified 23rd so AJA may have some issues. If he doesn't get it together soon he may be out of that ride and back in CTS where he has performed much better. All in all, the veteran open wheel refugees did well and the rookies have some things to learn but we need to give them some time to get sorted out. Of all you mentioned, I think AJ Allmendinger is the only one who should be a bit worried.

[Fangio]

What is pathetic is that the series has a lock on the special Olympics of qualifying. Have you ever read a NASCAR rule book ?

Don`t bother. :D

[Hoss Ghoul]

I'm surprised at you, ChiCrew. Not exactly charitable, are we? Tony Stewart qualified in the top ten, right where he's supposed to. JPM qualifying 15th is actually very respectable, given this is his second year. Yikes, he out qualified Daytona veterans such as Kurt Busch, Kyle Petty, and Dale Jarrett, so he doesn't need to apologize for that. Sam Hornish is with a new team and car added to the Penske stable, and he's still getting his feet wet. But he's in and folks like Ken Schrader are going home. John Andretti? His car had never even seen wind tunnel time but a savvy drive got him in the race. Robby Gordon is a living NASCAR relic in that he is the only independent owner-driver in Sprint Cup racing who just made yet another car brand change to Dodge, working with the Everenham team, and he got in despite long odds. JJ Yeley is luck to have gotten in since his Toyota team doesn't nearly have the resources that the Gibbs team (Toyota) has. Dario Franchitti is a real rookie who's barely had sufficient seat time but he made the show while former Daytona 500 winner Bill Elliott will be watching the race from home. Canadians Jacques Villeneuve and Patrick Carpentier got caught up in a wreck that was not their fault; but they were driving very well and had a chance to make the show until victimized by someone else's mistake. AJ Allmendinger is still getting the hang of this Sprint Cup thing but his Red Bull Toyota teammate Brian Vickers qualified 23rd so AJA may have some issues. If he doesn't get it together soon he may be out of that ride and back in CTS where he has performed much better. All in all, the veteran open wheel refugees did well and the rookies have some things to learn but we need to give them some time to get sorted out. Of all you mentioned, I think AJ Allmendinger is the only one who should be a bit worried.

It's charitable to call Tony Stewart and John Andretti open wheelers at this point, I'm sure they've spent far more time in stock cars at this point in their careers than IndyCars.

That said, you also are plain wrong about some of the other details.

Franchitti is in due to owner points plain and simple, however, he was caught up in a wreck so who's to say if he'd have made it otherwise.

As to the wreck he was caught up in...well, that was Jacques Villenueve's fault. He just plain lost it and wrecked himself, Franchitti and a couple of other guys. He was the victimizer there.

Carpentier was running pretty well and had a decent shot at making the transfer spot, but he had an aggressive setup/overdrove the car, blew his right front tire and crashed himself out of the race. Again, not really a victim of anyone else's accident at all.


The above wasn't meant as a rebuke of open wheelers to NASCAR, personally I'm enjoying it greatly. I just wanted to clear up some facts.

[Phoenixent]

pretty sad showing for the open wheel guys going from "fighter jets" to "B-52 bombers"

It is a good analogy you used Chicago. :up:

I would say that fighter pilots will always have a hard time flying a BUFF. Driving a cup car is like flying a B-52 you are in it for the long haul taking your time and avoiding things for 4 or 5 hours. Not like a fighter jet (Indycar) you zoom in and out finished in 1 to 2 hours. Tony Stewart is one of the few fighter pilots that change over successfully to flying BUFFs. He has the mentality for that type of driving. The others will make the grade with time.

[Wraith]

Commented on this in the IRL forum version of the thread, but JPM won F1 races, never the World Championship.

Hornish and Franchitti are literal rookies, Villeneuve did decently in an almost unsponsored car (the "middle lane vacuum effect" got him), and Carpentier almost made it in, in one of his first showings.

It's not like any of these guys are driving Hendrick cars.

[Chaparral66]

It's charitable to call Tony Stewart and John Andretti open wheelers at this point, I'm sure they've spent far more time in stock cars at this point in their careers than IndyCars.

That said, you also are plain wrong about some of the other details.

Franchitti is in due to owner points plain and simple, however, he was caught up in a wreck so who's to say if he'd have made it otherwise.

As to the wreck he was caught up in...well, that was Jacques Villenueve's fault. He just plain lost it and wrecked himself, Franchitti and a couple of other guys. He was the victimizer there.

Carpentier was running pretty well and had a decent shot at making the transfer spot, but he had an aggressive setup/overdrove the car, blew his right front tire and crashed himself out of the race. Again, not really a victim of anyone else's accident at all.


The above wasn't meant as a rebuke of open wheelers to NASCAR, personally I'm enjoying it greatly. I just wanted to clear up some facts.

Actually, I think you're right about Carpentier, I thought he got caught in Villenueve's wreck, he wrecked later. But I wouldn't say he overdrove the car. Having been in the IRL, he's accustomed to ovals, but his feel of the Goodyear tires may not be there yet. And Villeneuve lost it when someone took air off his front spoiler and he didn't know to correct properly in a Cup car on a high bank. But Jacques will get it. He's too talented not to.

[Hoss Ghoul]

Actually, I think you're right about Carpentier, I thought he got caught in Villenueve's wreck, he wrecked later. But I wouldn't say he overdrove the car. Having been in the IRL, he's accustomed to ovals, but his feel of the Goodyear tires may not be there yet. And Villeneuve lost it when someone took air off his front spoiler and he didn't know to correct properly in a Cup car on a high bank. But Jacques will get it. He's too talented not to.

Yeah, hopefully Carpentier and Villeneuve will get things going quickly, otherwise they are going to be on the outside looking in like A.J. was last year(and may be this year). The adjustment NASCAR made to qualifying this year should at least give them a fighting chance against the other go-or-go home teams.

[Chaparral66]

Are you familiar with the concept of a B-Main? That's when a group racers who didn't make original qualifying race together, and something like the top 2-3 people make it in out of 10-15 who missed the first qualifying segment. They do that with the NASCAR Whelen Modified Tour and at short tracks around the country. A B-main has some of the best racing you'll ever see since everyone is shooting for the fences trying to get in the main event. Too bad the lack of a high car count in open wheel makes that virtually impossible.

[SarahFan]

no way to twist and spin it...

that is ***** poor

[OWFan19]

Well ESPN the magazine finally gave some Open Wheel guys some press, oh but they had to be in ***** NASCAR before they got the recognition. Before these drivers got no attention, now they are recieving praise as drivers of a former series now in NASCAR. Its B.S. Is driving a stock car hard, I am sure it is. But is it the end all be all of motorsports no. The interviews in ESPN rhe Mag sounded scarely scripted. These guys are capable of driving multiple forms of race cars, I have to agree with Fangio, the rule books make a big difference. So does the restrictor plate that NASCAR gives you, so it could be off by a fraction resulting in either a faster or slower car. I dont trust anyone at NASCAR, I am almost damn certain that they do everything in their powers to make sure their good ol boy regulars look better than the elitist open wheel. If drivers at the age of 49-72 are qualifying for Daytona, it tells me its not all about the driver. To me NASCAR is the retirement home for drivers that are losing the reaction times to drive fast race cars. I laugh at the Tony Stewart vehicle and another ad I saw with Clint Bower for Beef, they talk about bump drafting at 200mph, or what it takes to drive 200mph, does NASCAR even break 190 anymore?

[Chaparral66]

no way to twist and spin it...

that is ***** poor

What is this in response to?

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Oooops you are right Wraith. I stand corrected. I have fired my fact checker. :)

[SarahFan]

What is this in response to?

how former OW race car drivers qualified

[Chaparral66]

Well ESPN the magazine finally gave some Open Wheel guys some press, oh but they had to be in ***** NASCAR before they got the recognition. Before these drivers got no attention, now they are recieving praise as drivers of a former series now in NASCAR. Its B.S. Is driving a stock car hard, I am sure it is. But is it the end all be all of motorsports no. The interviews in ESPN rhe Mag sounded scarely scripted. These guys are capable of driving multiple forms of race cars, I have to agree with Fangio, the rule books make a big difference. So does the restrictor plate that NASCAR gives you, so it could be off by a fraction resulting in either a faster or slower car. I dont trust anyone at NASCAR, I am almost damn certain that they do everything in their powers to make sure their good ol boy regulars look better than the elitist open wheel. If drivers at the age of 49-72 are qualifying for Daytona, it tells me its not all about the driver. To me NASCAR is the retirement home for drivers that are losing the reaction times to drive fast race cars. I laugh at the Tony Stewart vehicle and another ad I saw with Clint Bower for Beef, they talk about bump drafting at 200mph, or what it takes to drive 200mph, does NASCAR even break 190 anymore?

I agree about that attitude sports magazines in general and perhaps ESPN The Magazine in particular has toward open wheel. Until recently, Sports Illustrated had the same thought about racing, confining even mighty NASCAR to one a month reports. But maybe that's changing. With Dae Earnhardt, Jr. on at least his second cover, maybe SI will do more with NASCAR. But open wheel will stay in the background.

But a couple of facts. FYI, the restrictor plate is for Daytona and Talledega only. NASCAR may not be the be all of racing, but it has its steep learning curve, as all other racing series have to a newcomer. There is a true art to driving an oval, and Juan Pablo Montoya is learning that right now. And don't think driving Daytona is merely a matter of getting in the car and mashing the gas as hard as you can. Driving on a restrictor plate track is a real chess game, a matter of reading the draft and hoping that good luck plays a part. Good air flow management plays a big part too, and nobody was better at eading the air than the late Dale Earnhardt, Sr. I think you should understand that if these open wheelers are coming in and getting their butts kicked at Daytona, that should tell you it is all about the driver. Carpentier and Villenueve aren't in the Daytona not because NASCAR stacked the deck against them, but because of a lack of experience. Former open wheeler John Andretti was a real long shot and his modestly sponsored Chevy didn't have significant testing but he got in because of the former Pepsi 400 winner (at Daytona) had a thorough knowledge of the complexities of the racetrack (a lot of which he learned watching Dale Earnhardt Sr.) and the draft. He had probably the savviest drive of the day and he's got a real shot at a top 15 finish.

Lastly, don't overlook Tony Stewart. He is a former IRL regular who has had as much success as anyone in NASCAR and no way can you say the sport is stacked against him. He has gotten two wins at his home track at Indianapolis, and he's a real threat to win at Daytona. He's also a two time Sprint Cup Champion. The openwheelers coming into the sport will become competitive once they make the proper adjustments to the cars and the tracks, and that will take time. Montoya is doing that right now, and Ganassi is very patient. The other car owners will need to be too. If they are, it shouldn't be long before Carpentier and Villeneuve are starting to mix it up with the likes of Kurt Busch and Carl Edwards.

[Miatanut]

My theory:

F1, IRL and Champ Car guys are used to driving cars that are glued to the track. In all three (as in Atlantic), the cars currently have an excess of grip over power. Yes, even F1. For comparison, check out videos from the late '80's or older, when the cars drifted all over the place. I miss those days!

The folks coming up to NASCAR are used to driving front engine, low-grip cars. They are used to driving cars that drift. They have refined the skills of driving cars that drift. Even in the restrictor plate races, the cars aren't completely planted.

That's why open wheel guys don't do very well in NASCAR.

I would rather see open wheelers have less grip and bring back some of that seat-of-the-pants driving in open wheel!

[seppefan]

My theory:

I would rather see open wheelers have less grip and bring back some of that seat-of-the-pants driving in open wheel!


Yees! so right !

Which open wheel series offers this ? ChampCar and we are going to loose it it seems...why if it is such a good series.

[Cart750hp]

Well, CC is a good series for the people who once saw the best of it. Other than that, majority of people thinks NASCAR is racing. I don't need to agree with it but that's where mostly focused is at right now. Popularity is what NASCAR have. They're bringing tons of money just for it. That is something CC/IRL lacks; they are no longer popular. Announcing 200,000+ each weekend is not really helping is it? Bringing chick drivers really isn't helping is it? Bringing Cedric the entertainer really not much of a help, right? Paul Tracy, Sebastien Bourdais, Alex Tagliani fight really didn't put much out there, right? Having a new car really is not much help at all, right? And definitely cancelling schedules, promoters leaving, executives leaving, rent-a-car each race, and two American drivers, are not a huge help at all.

I think bringing a very experienced marketing will not put any change into CC's strategy. How? TC left, to start. I bet he couldn't stand the owners of CC, I won't be surprised. Anyow, you have too many owners who likes to stick their hands in one tiny cookie jar. CC needs a new ownership for good.

[ShiftingGears]

Yees! so right !

Which open wheel series offers this ? ChampCar and we are going to loose it it seems...why if it is such a good series.

CCWS needs more power and less grip. I watched the Assen race and it played out like any F1 race where there was 3-4 safety cars deployed.

The DP-01 is good but a lot more can be done to make CCWS unique and more marketable without dumb gimmicks.

[Miatanut]

CCWS needs more power and less grip. I watched the Assen race and it played out like any F1 race where there was 3-4 safety cars deployed.

The DP-01 is good but a lot more can be done to make CCWS unique and more marketable without dumb gimmicks.

If you take away a lot of aero grip, you also take away a lot of drag, so the current power levels would give top speeds like 950 HP would on the current cars.

The DFV gave us many years of great racing with only 400-500 HP.

[CCFanatic]

Heck, most Nascar drivers have done open wheel racing. Many have done sprint car and midget racing. Yeley didn't get his name running the 500 in 98 in his only League start. He got his name from winning on the dirt tracks.

[Chaparral66]

CCWS needs more power and less grip. I watched the Assen race and it played out like any F1 race where there was 3-4 safety cars deployed.

The DP-01 is good but a lot more can be done to make CCWS unique and more marketable without dumb gimmicks.

Champ Car needs to get a grip. :)

[Lee Roy]

What is most pathetic is that so many open-wheel drivers don't want to be in open-wheel anymore. American open-wheel racing won't last much longer.

[Chaparral66]

What is most pathetic is that so many open-wheel drivers don't want to be in open-wheel anymore. American open-wheel racing won't last much longer.

I disagree, Lee. If open wheel wasn't such a mess right now, they never would have left. The split has lasted too long, the owners of both series have used horrible judgement, and the crowds and TV ratings have tanked. Can't really blame these guys for wanting to get outta Dodge (and in some cases, into a Dodge) before the well finally runs dry.