European Take

[sanguin]

Mark has a letter on AR1 about the merger from a European point of view.


"Champ Car making a big mistake -- A reader writes, Dear AutoRacing1.com, With great interest I've followed recent developments between CCWS and IRL. For me there seems only one person who is 'sort of' panicking. His name: Tony George. He is facing the following problem: CCWS' rapid global expansion and the fact that worldwide more people know about Champ Car than the IRL.

CCWS is developing itself into a true 'World Series. Today CCWS isn't anymore in competition with the IRL, but in fact with Ecclestone's F1 circus (example: Bernie's - successful - attempt in 2007 to keep CCWS out of China). The IRL has all its races (15) in the US, apart from one - mandatory - visit to Japan (to please Honda ...). They don't even visit Canada or Mexico, two NAFTA countries that are neighbors to the USA.

This year’s CCWS international schedule has only 6 races in the US, 3 in Canada (their neighbor country), 3 in Europe and one in both Australia and their other neighbor country Mexico! For 2009 CCWS are planning even more events overseas: Brazil, and somewhere in Asia ... There are also rumors there could be a 4th race added in Europe.

So what is Tony George's problem? Well, he's afraid his own series might not have enough drivers in the - near - future. Most 'new' CCWS drivers are not really interested in the IRL's mainly oval series, they are not even interested in the Indy 500 as it doesn't fit in their future plans, the dream of racing in F1.

This 'new generation' CCWS driver, most of them from Europe and South America, don't know about the 'oval tradition' in the USA, and they are more focused on 'road racing' and they take the street races and airport races for granted.

They've noticed Bourdais' move from Champ Car to Formula 1 and they all think they can do the same, and they don't need ovals to do so! As such, CCWS is in a better shape and position then ever before, even though its own owners don't appear to be aware of this!

I just hope the CCWS owners, i.e. Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerald Forsythe and Paul Gentilozzi, will realize that in actual fact they have 'gold' in their hands.

This is my humble - European - opinion. Guenter Schmidt"

[Fangio]

Respectfully to Mr. Schmidt, too bad you are not the CEO of T-Mobile, BASF, Siemans or Allianz. Just having one of those sponsors could save it.

[Andrewmcm]

With respect to Mr Schmidt, he's talking out of his hat. And to be honest that letter sounds suspiciously like the line that CCWS has been taking for their International expansion - I wonder if it is a real letter at all.

New drivers are not interested in the I500/IRL/CCWS as there is no money in it. If an Indycar World Series was able to pay drivers a decent sum with lots of exposure they'd be pretty happy to race on whatever track came their way. Mansell managed it, Senna thought about it, Piquet tried it, Fittipaldi did it - how many of them cared about oval racing before they went to American shores?

In addition, what about Montoya, Allmendinger, Jacques Villeneuve and the other single-seater racers converted to NASCAR - how many would have left if Indycar racing had been how it was in the 1990-1994 years and awash with money/sponsors/exposure and so on?

[CCFan]

With respect to Mr Schmidt, he's talking out of his hat. And to be honest that letter sounds suspiciously like the line that CCWS has been taking for their International expansion - I wonder if it is a real letter at all.

New drivers are not interested in the I500/IRL/CCWS as there is no money in it. If an Indycar World Series was able to pay drivers a decent sum with lots of exposure they'd be pretty happy to race on whatever track came their way. Mansell managed it, Senna thought about it, Piquet tried it, Fittipaldi did it - how many of them cared about oval racing before they went to American shores?

In addition, what about Montoya, Allmendinger, Jacques Villeneuve and the other single-seater racers converted to NASCAR - how many would have left if Indycar racing had been how it was in the 1990-1994 years and awash with money/sponsors/exposure and so on?

Agreed, Andrew. Schmidt's statement that "CCWS is in a better shape and position then ever before, even though its own owners don't appear to be aware of this!" smacks of another poster who's living on wishful thinking. The Amigos are well aware of CCWS' position in the scheme of things, and it's not rosy.

Villeneuve & Montoya would still have left because F1 was their goal. However, I think that they would have come back instead of going to NASCAR, had Indycar still been in the same shape of the early '90s.

[garyshell]

CCWS' rapid global expansion and the fact that worldwide more people know about Champ Car than the IRL.


This one line says it all. Oh please! That is the funniest thing I ever heard. "Rapid" yeah right. And more people know about Champ Car? Let me guess, he is including folks who know of CART in that number. I am sure the question was CAREFULLY worded to get that reponse. I wonder how the numbers would be skewed if it included the words "Inidanapolis 500"... I think we ALL know the answer to that question, even if a few of us here don't want to admit it.

Gary

[mikiec]

Mark has a letter on AR1 about the merger from a European point of view.


"Champ Car making a big mistake -- A reader writes, Dear AutoRacing1.com, With great interest I've followed recent developments between CCWS and IRL. For me there seems only one person who is 'sort of' panicking. His name: Tony George. He is facing the following problem: CCWS' rapid global expansion and the fact that worldwide more people know about Champ Car than the IRL.

CCWS is developing itself into a true 'World Series. Today CCWS isn't anymore in competition with the IRL, but in fact with Ecclestone's F1 circus

This was true about 15 years ago.


So what is Tony George's problem? Well, he's afraid his own series might not have enough drivers in the - near - future. Most 'new' CCWS drivers are not really interested in the IRL's mainly oval series, they are not even interested in the Indy 500 as it doesn't fit in their future plans, the dream of racing in F1.

This 'new generation' CCWS driver, most of them from Europe and South America, don't know about the 'oval tradition' in the USA, and they are more focused on 'road racing' and they take the street races and airport races for granted.

They've noticed Bourdais' move from Champ Car to Formula 1 and they all think they can do the same, and they don't need ovals to do so! As such, CCWS is in a better shape and position then ever before, even though its own owners don't appear to be aware of this!




I just hope the CCWS owners, i.e. Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerald Forsythe and Paul Gentilozzi, will realize that in actual fact they have 'gold' in their hands.

This is my humble - European - opinion. Guenter Schmidt"

Except that when you spend millions of dollars on real gold, it's still worth about the same amount, whereas CCWS is now worth nothing.... and will still require millions more of the owners' money this year to do a full season.

Are you sure you didn't write this, Sanguin? You've been very quiet whilst it looked like the unification might actually happen.

[pvtjoker]

[quote="sanguin"]

I just hope the CCWS owners, i.e. Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerald Forsythe and Paul Gentilozzi, will realize that in actual fact they have 'gold' in their hands.

QUOTE]

^^^^^
This line is priceless.

[garyshell]

I just hope the CCWS owners, i.e. Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerald Forsythe and Paul Gentilozzi, will realize that in actual fact they have 'gold' in their hands.


That gold comes from trying to gild the ***** that they have turned this into by the likes of their asinine TV schedule as just one example.

Gary

Mark has a letter on AR1 about the merger from a European point of view.

I'm European, and that's not my view.

[clydekart]

That gold comes from trying to gild the ***** that they have turned this into by the likes of their asinine TV schedule as just one example.

Gary

Why is it that whenever something positive is posted about CC, someone responds negatively? I thought this was a CC forum!!

[mikiec]

Why is it that whenever something positive is posted about CC, someone responds negatively? I thought this was a CC forum!!

Because what was written wasn't positive, it was pure fantasy! If you want to read pure fantasy like that, then the CCF forum is the place to be.

Why is it that whenever something positive is posted about CC, someone responds negatively? I thought this was a CC forum!!

It's not a Cheer-leading forum though. It's a forum about ChampCar, all views welcome.

The reason why somebody responds negatively is because the original 'positive' isn't without reproach.

If it was, there wouldn't be a forum, there would be a factum.

[Mark]

Speaking from a European prespective myself I think there is only one thing wrong with what he is saying.... it's bollocks!

[pits4me]

In addition, what about Montoya, Allmendinger, Jacques Villeneuve and the other single-seater racers converted to NASCAR - how many would have left if Indycar racing had been how it was in the 1990-1994 years and awash with money/sponsors/exposure and so on?

If racing were as simple as fifteen years ago. Mr. Schmidt may be correct that there is a workable business model for Champ Car but it will take considerable financial resources to ensure its success.

Additionally there's too much fragmentation in the motorsports market with series, teams, drivers and venues all competing for sponsorhip and brand exposure rights. Even smaller NASCAR teams are struggling, the mega teams bringing in financial partners. In some cases, the sponsor portfolio has become very politicized (Coca-Cola vs Pepsi, Aquafina vs Dasani, Gatorade vs Powerade).

CC is a very attractive investment due to the weak dollar but the fact remains there is a ROI shortfall. Merging with TG isn't the strategic answer either. The IRL business model is just as bad. An Indy-centric league does not attract serious foriegn investment and domestic support is too weak to sustain US-based OWR.

Look no further than what Scott Atherton and Tim Mayer are doing with the ALMS -- a series written off and going into its 10th anniversary season stronger than ever.

KK and TG should take the executive summary page out of his business plan and start fresh! If that means leaving egocentric teams owners on the sidelines, so be it. If they want to race in open wheel, they'll eventually have to compromise, and do whats best for the sport and international fan base.

[clydekart]

It's not a Cheer-leading forum though. It's a forum about ChampCar, all views welcome.

The reason why somebody responds negatively is because the original 'positive' isn't without reproach.

If it was, there wouldn't be a forum, there would be a factum.

I like CC racing, thus I read the posts and sometimes respond. Obviously, no series is perfect but I would be at a different forum if I saw no redeeming qualities in a particular series.

I like CC racing, thus I read the posts and sometimes respond. Obviously, no series is perfect but I would be at a different forum if I saw no redeeming qualities in a particular series.

There are actually very few who see no redeeming qualities, but nearly all of us who do see redeeming qualities are realists too who don't instantly accept the Gospel according to the CC cheerleaders like Sanguin.

[sanguin]

Why is it that whenever something positive is posted about CC, someone responds negatively? I thought this was a CC forum!!

no its not.

[Chaparral66]

With respect to Mr Schmidt, he's talking out of his hat. And to be honest that letter sounds suspiciously like the line that CCWS has been taking for their International expansion - I wonder if it is a real letter at all.

New drivers are not interested in the I500/IRL/CCWS as there is no money in it. If an Indycar World Series was able to pay drivers a decent sum with lots of exposure they'd be pretty happy to race on whatever track came their way. Mansell managed it, Senna thought about it, Piquet tried it, Fittipaldi did it - how many of them cared about oval racing before they went to American shores?

In addition, what about Montoya, Allmendinger, Jacques Villeneuve and the other single-seater racers converted to NASCAR - how many would have left if Indycar racing had been how it was in the 1990-1994 years and awash with money/sponsors/exposure and so on?

Very good points, Andrew. That letter to AR1 had no basis in reality. If CC were better managed on even the basics (good promotion, stable schedule, solid tv deal, name drivers), that letter might be valid. But with the unrest in both open wheel series, no wonder Villenueve, Franchitti, and Hornish have followed Juan Pablo Montoya to NASCAR while their reps were still intact.

[garyshell]

no its not.


Then why, pray tell, do YOU remain?

Gary

[jensen541]

I am European as well and maybe a bit too old... I read the comments on this post with interest and noticed no one knows who is Gunther Schmidt. He is the guy who took over the F1 Penske team in 1977 and who was the owner of the wheel Company ATS. So he does have some experience even if I agree that some of his statements are optimistics. But people should just think about the following :

- there are 6 major 600 HP+ OW series in the world : F1, GP2, CCWS, IRL, A1 and Superleague Formula

- Out of these, only 4 have an international presence : F1, GP2, CCWS and A1

- Going further, only F1, GP2 and CCWS have a balanced schedule between home and foreign markets

- F1 is unable to access the US market

- Only a US Formula could pretend to access the the 3 major economical areas of the world by fact as the control of the US market is a key.

In other words, if CCWS was well managed and had the money, it could counterbalance the power of F1.

So what Mr. Schmidt is saying is not totally wrong. :) They do have gold in hands, but no money to do the job.

[Anubis]

Was that post written by the guy who used to do the Iraqi information minister's speeches?! I want whatever it is he was smoking when he wrote that.

Equally, I'd love to know the thought process at work when you saw that on AR1 and thought "aha!". You're the first to jump on people for posting rumour and opinions, yet here you are posting SOMEONE ELSE'S opinion in a desperate effort to make things look rosy. Please don't confuse the (deluded) opinion of an individual European for European opinion, it does you zero justice and just makes you look like foolish.

[FlatChatRacer]

I am finding hard to believe that a person called Geunter Schmidt really exists and wrote that letter to AR1.

I bet is just something made up. It just doesn't look like something that anyone would write bearing in mind the information in the public domain.

Anyway, I may be wrong, but I think it is a load of bollocks!

[cartpix]

I am finding hard to believe that a person called Geunter Schmidt really exists and wrote that letter to AR1.

I bet is just something made up. It just doesn't look like something that anyone would write bearing in mind the information in the public domain.

Anyway, I may be wrong, but I think it is a load of bollocks!

According to Jensen541, he is really well placed in the Euro racing scene. On the other hand, Geunter is a pretty common name, in Europe & Schmidt is the European equivalent of Smith.

Jeff

[pits4me]

I am European as well and maybe a bit too old... I read the comments on this post with interest and noticed no one knows who is Gunther Schmidt. He is the guy who took over the F1 Penske team in 1977 and who was the owner of the wheel Company ATS. So he does have some experience even if I agree that some of his statements are optimistics. But people should just think about the following :

- there are 6 major 600 HP+ OW series in the world : F1, GP2, CCWS, IRL, A1 and Superleague Formula

- Out of these, only 4 have an international presence : F1, GP2, CCWS and A1

- Going further, only F1, GP2 and CCWS have a balanced schedule between home and foreign markets

- F1 is unable to access the US market

- Only a US Formula could pretend to access the the 3 major economical areas of the world by fact as the control of the US market is a key.

In other words, if CCWS was well managed and had the money, it could counterbalance the power of F1.

So what Mr. Schmidt is saying is not totally wrong. :) They do have gold in hands, but no money to do the job.

Spoken by someone who totally understands what the IRL cannot provide in a unification scenario.

[jensen541]

Well, quite suprising reactions to such a little post. Yes, I do smoke, but only cigarettes. And I am not working for Iraq (could be fun). I am not trying to makes things look rosy, but just putting facts on the table. Gunther Schmidt does exist, just study history and if you don know how to do it, look at Wikipedia. You are tuning up so many cars in the US, so you should know who ATS is. It is true that it is a common name in Germany, but there is only one who could express this kind of opinion because he was linked to OW US racing even if it was long ago. I feel pits4me has a pretty good understanding of the situation. Many Europeans understand more than you think about US OW racing. And many want to defend CCWS because IRL is boring viewed from here. We just don't like ovals !

[BenRoethig]

Mark has a letter on AR1 about the merger from a European point of view.


"Champ Car making a big mistake -- A reader writes, Dear AutoRacing1.com, With great interest I've followed recent developments between CCWS and IRL. For me there seems only one person who is 'sort of' panicking. His name: Tony George. He is facing the following problem: CCWS' rapid global expansion and the fact that worldwide more people know about Champ Car than the IRL.

CCWS is developing itself into a true 'World Series. Today CCWS isn't anymore in competition with the IRL, but in fact with Ecclestone's F1 circus (example: Bernie's - successful - attempt in 2007 to keep CCWS out of China). The IRL has all its races (15) in the US, apart from one - mandatory - visit to Japan (to please Honda ...). They don't even visit Canada or Mexico, two NAFTA countries that are neighbors to the USA.

This year’s CCWS international schedule has only 6 races in the US, 3 in Canada (their neighbor country), 3 in Europe and one in both Australia and their other neighbor country Mexico! For 2009 CCWS are planning even more events overseas: Brazil, and somewhere in Asia ... There are also rumors there could be a 4th race added in Europe.

So what is Tony George's problem? Well, he's afraid his own series might not have enough drivers in the - near - future. Most 'new' CCWS drivers are not really interested in the IRL's mainly oval series, they are not even interested in the Indy 500 as it doesn't fit in their future plans, the dream of racing in F1.

This 'new generation' CCWS driver, most of them from Europe and South America, don't know about the 'oval tradition' in the USA, and they are more focused on 'road racing' and they take the street races and airport races for granted.

They've noticed Bourdais' move from Champ Car to Formula 1 and they all think they can do the same, and they don't need ovals to do so! As such, CCWS is in a better shape and position then ever before, even though its own owners don't appear to be aware of this!

I just hope the CCWS owners, i.e. Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerald Forsythe and Paul Gentilozzi, will realize that in actual fact they have 'gold' in their hands.

This is my humble - European - opinion. Guenter Schmidt"


My response: the problem here is that we are not talking about the future of european open wheel racing here, that is deep seated and secure. What we are talking about is the future of American open wheel racing racing. It comes from a different pedigree than european open wheel racing the and the fans expect something different. If you want your own Champ Car on european soil, please go ahead and create one.

[BenRoethig]

I am European as well and maybe a bit too old... I read the comments on this post with interest and noticed no one knows who is Gunther Schmidt. He is the guy who took over the F1 Penske team in 1977 and who was the owner of the wheel Company ATS. So he does have some experience even if I agree that some of his statements are optimistics. But people should just think about the following :

- there are 6 major 600 HP+ OW series in the world : F1, GP2, CCWS, IRL, A1 and Superleague Formula

- Out of these, only 4 have an international presence : F1, GP2, CCWS and A1

- Going further, only F1, GP2 and CCWS have a balanced schedule between home and foreign markets

- F1 is unable to access the US market

- Only a US Formula could pretend to access the the 3 major economical areas of the world by fact as the control of the US market is a key.

In other words, if CCWS was well managed and had the money, it could counterbalance the power of F1.

So what Mr. Schmidt is saying is not totally wrong. :) They do have gold in hands, but no money to do the job.

There is one problem to that. While Champ Car is U.S. based, it is still a european-type formula road racing series. F1 wasn't able to access the U.S. market because we are simply not interested in that form of autoracing. You can keep trying to push it over here, but like soccer/football no matter how popular it is internationally it is never going to be that big here.

[jensen541]

Who said we are talking about the future of European OW racing ? We are talking about OW racing, that'all. Today's world is international and so is racing. There are many European fans who would like to see a strong US OW racing which could also be international. Many people her are ***** off with F1 and just looking for an alternative. I do not feel the debate is a question of nations anymore. Because if it is, then just keep F1 and IRL and you got it.

[BenRoethig]

Who said we are talking about the future of European OW racing ? We are talking about OW racing, that'all. Today's world is international and so is racing. There are many European fans who would like to see a strong US OW racing which could also be international. Many people her are ***** off with F1 and just looking for an alternative. I do not feel the debate is a question of nations anymore. Because if it is, then just keep F1 and IRL and you got it.

That's the problem, you want a U.S. series that is international. What you guys like in racing is particularly well received here and vice versa. CART tried to bridge that gap and they went from the top of the world to out of business in short order.

[electron]

to make a long story short:

NOBODY knows or sees that the Amigos have "gold" at their hands. Potential sponsors don't, Drivers don't, Teams don't, TV doesn't, Promoters don't, (Ex)Fans don't, TG doesn't, the Amigos don't, international investors don't.... forgot anyone?

only a handful people can see it, among them Mr Schmidt (anybody can use that name, no indication it actually IS the ATS guy) and maybe sanguin.

What is my (European) take on this: "I see dead people...."

regards
Herr Schmidt

[Scott Dryden]

That's the problem, you want a U.S. series that is international. What you guys like in racing is particularly well received here and vice versa. CART tried to bridge that gap and they went from the top of the world to out of business in short order.
The reasons for CART not proving sustainable lie almost entirely with the domestic market, and can be traced back to the split, not international expansion. Up until the IRL's inception, remember that IndyCar was outdrawing NASCAR and growing. This was despite its international flavour, which George was so against when outlining his 'vision'.

The domestic issues that lead to CART's downfall were things like TV ratings, having to time-buy, falling attendances at oval tracks, etc. Just look at the timeline of events. These problems didn't begin to occur when the series started to become more global, they began with the inception of the IRL.

Also, there isn't the clear divide between the American and European markets you describe. On the point you made about road racing and Europe, well the ever first custom banked oval in the world was built in the UK (Brooklands). This was popular, and only closed due to the second world war.

Since Brooklands there have been many other European ovals constructed, such as Monza and the Grenzlandring. And Sitges Terramar, in Catalonia, was widely regarded as the finest motor racing facility in the world for some time. Top European drivers such as Jim Clarke and Graham Hill regularly used to compete in the Indy 500, and more recently the European oval races have proven significantly more popular (the Eurospeedway, in particular) than those held on American soil.

[Nick Brad]

I completely agree, the problems all stem from the split, but simply throwing them back together and patching over the cracks will achieve nothing. You'd just kill them both off within 10 years anyway.
What needs to happen is realistically unachievable in my eyes unfortunately. Everyone realises that Champ Cars are in a bad way at the moment, I partially see that as a result of too many roosters in the hen house. I'm not sure Gerald Forsythe is the right guy to take charge, (would rather have KK as complete owner as he has more assets to bring,) but the championship needs to sit back, take stock of what they have and restart next year with a definate plan of action and a SINGULAR vision of what they want to achive. If they did this, then I think CC would emerge gradually as a financially stable series that would eventually surpass IRL again and take the crown as premier USOW series.
The fly in the ointment is that you can't ask all the CC teams to sit around for a year twiddling their thumbs. They would automatically migrate to another racing series, not neccesarily IRL either and once they're gone, you'd struggle to get them back.

[Lousada]

I am European as well and maybe a bit too old... I read the comments on this post with interest and noticed no one knows who is Gunther Schmidt. He is the guy who took over the F1 Penske team in 1977 and who was the owner of the wheel Company ATS. So he does have some experience even if I agree that some of his statements are optimistics. But people should just think about the following :

I'm pretty sure that Gunther Schmidt died in 2005.

[BenRoethig]

The reasons for CART not proving sustainable lie almost entirely with the domestic market, and can be traced back to the split, not international expansion. Up until the IRL's inception, remember that IndyCar was outdrawing NASCAR and growing. This was despite its international flavour, which George was so against when outlining his 'vision'.

It had international flavor, but its core was always the Indy500, the triple crown of 500 mile races, and a wide variety of tracks. When CART starting going to mostly foreign F1 development drivers on 75% road courses, the old Indycar fans who rejected the IRL started to loose interest.


The domestic issues that lead to CART's downfall were things like TV ratings, having to time-buy, falling attendances at oval tracks, etc. Just look at the timeline of events. These problems didn't begin to occur when the series started to become more global, they began with the inception of the IRL.

They were started by the split, but CART clearly had the upper hand. It was the Indycar series without the Indy500. When they started making changes to make it more suitable to international viewers. In 1999-2000 things like time buys were unheard of. Flash forward a couple years and Sebastian Bordais was every bit as impressive as Zanardi or Montoya. The problem is his accomplishments aren't talked about like theirs because very few in the states honestly have a clue he was ever here is that there ever was a champ car.


Also, there isn't the clear divide between the American and European markets you describe. On the point you made about road racing and Europe, well the ever first custom banked oval in the world was built in the UK (Brooklands). This was popular, and only closed due to the second world war.

Since Brooklands there have been many other European ovals constructed, such as Monza and the Grenzlandring. And Sitges Terramar, in Catalonia, was widely regarded as the finest motor racing facility in the world for some time. Top European drivers such as Jim Clarke and Graham Hill regularly used to compete in the Indy 500, and more recently the European oval races have proven significantly more popular (the Eurospeedway, in particular) than those held on American soil.

At one time the participants of the 500 were even given F1 points. Racers were different in those days. You saw the crossovers because there wasn't the distinction there is now. F1 and the Indycars were in a position of mutual respect. It's a very different world 65 years later. Now, Ovals are considered unacceptable by most europeans and the all road racing series here are considered "boring follow the leader affairs".


I completely agree, the problems all stem from the split, but simply throwing them back together and patching over the cracks will achieve nothing. You'd just kill them both off within 10 years anyway.

If they don't Champ Car will be gone within 2 and the IRL in 5. I'll take a chance over continuing a spit that has achieved nothing but driving driving manufacturers, talent, and sponsors away. Patching over combines the fan and sponsor pool. Having two seperate series dulutes them to nothing. Look, you guys


What needs to happen is realistically unachievable in my eyes unfortunately. Everyone realises that Champ Cars are in a bad way at the moment, I partially see that as a result of too many roosters in the hen house. I'm not sure Gerald Forsythe is the right guy to take charge, (would rather have KK as complete owner as he has more assets to bring,) but the championship needs to sit back, take stock of what they have and restart next year with a definate plan of action and a SINGULAR vision of what they want to achive. If they did this, then I think CC would emerge gradually as a financially stable series that would eventually surpass IRL again and take the crown as premier USOW series.

Champ Car can never achieve success as is. You're trying to sell a product that Americans aren't. You could have unlimited resources and every big international super star and the series and you're not going to further the series. If we set up a NASCAR type series in europe using our rules and mostly non-european drivers what are the chances do you think it would have of becoming a major series?

[Chaparral66]

There is one problem to that. While Champ Car is U.S. based, it is still a european-type formula road racing series. F1 wasn't able to access the U.S. market because we are simply not interested in that form of autoracing. You can keep trying to push it over here, but like soccer/football no matter how popular it is internationally it is never going to be that big here.

Formula 1 used to do just fine here in the US. I think we were one of the first countries, if not THE first, to have two F1 events. It had a great venue at Watkins Glen, one of the best roadcourses we have on this side of the pond. Unfortunately, the owners of WG at the time F1 last raced there did not keep up with the place like they should have. Reports of poor groundskeeping and sagging amenities kind of killed it there. We did have US Grand Prix West but F1 was very expensive and Long Beach soon found it could have just as great an event with CART, as oppose to F1. Then F1 went about changing the venue and soon found itself in a Las Vegas parking lot in 1991 before leaving the US all together. Hardly the glamorous event it once was. But what also killed F1 here was Bernie's lust for wads of cash, and since no way would the federal government step in and help keep the F1 circus, Bernie decided to follow the money. No more US Grand Prix.

Then Tony George sucessfully brought F1 back to the US and to the fabled Brickyard, on a modified roadcourse. Good business move, and biggest crowd ever for an F1 event, I think. The novelty wears down a bit, but then that fiasco with Michelin tires, causing just 6 cars to race, soured everyone (not TG's fault, obviously) and at that point, TG just wasn't willing to pony up Bernie's price at that point as a result, and who can blame him? I'd say US fans are interested in F1, but the way the Michelin race was handled may have caused damage it will take quite a while to recover from. 'Course, Bernie's attitude about the US doesn't help.

F1 can be successful here in the US if Bernie were to take it seriously, and not as just another cash cow. That means understanding how we operate here as oppose to other countires, including some Third World nations anxious for a piece of the F1 glamor. It's all private sector here, and with few exceptions, one of which is the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, most venues here are in no position to afford Bernie's pricetag. There has been some rumors that F1 might return to Long Beach if Champ Car fades, but I doubt it. The LB city government wold have a very difficult time exlpaining to its citizens paying $30 million to stage an auto race. How much money does Bernie need to run the ship, anyway? And what sponsor is going to back that? I don't recall Bill Gates being a racing fan...

I am European as well and maybe a bit too old... I read the comments on this post with interest and noticed no one knows who is Gunther Schmidt. He is the guy who took over the F1 Penske team in 1977 and who was the owner of the wheel Company ATS. So he does have some experience even if I agree that some of his statements are optimistics. But people should just think about the following :


I'd think it's amazing that a man who died on 6th June 2005 has emailed AutoRacing1 this week.

[Chaparral66]

At one time the participants of the 500 were even given F1 points. Racers were different in those days. You saw the crossovers because there wasn't the distinction there is now. F1 and the Indycars were in a position of mutual respect. It's a very different world 65 years later. Now, Ovals are considered unacceptable by most europeans and the all road racing series here are considered "boring follow the leader affairs".


If you're referring to our US based American LeMans Series or Grand Am, that's not the impression most people have, by virtue of the diverse driver line up both series enjoy, along with multiple worldwide manufacturer involvement. Champ Car, as chaotic as its financial and managerial picture has become, always featured very good racing with plenty of passing. Now, if that comment applied to F1...

[pits4me]

My response: the problem here is that we are not talking about the future of european open wheel racing here, that is deep seated and secure. What we are talking about is the future of American open wheel racing racing. It comes from a different pedigree than european open wheel racing the and the fans expect something different. If you want your own Champ Car on european soil, please go ahead and create one.

Sorry Ben, this myopic perpective of a US only series has got to end. It's 2008 not the 1980's.

The whole dynamic of US open wheel changed when Emerson Fittipaldi won the 1989 PPG IndyCar World Series. That put CART on the global map and attracted many foreign drivers. When Nigel Mansell abandoned F1 for CART the year after he won the F1 World Championship, the media followed 'en masse'. It was also one of the most exciting CART seasons. I remember Paul Tracy winning Long Beach that year.

The increasing domination of non-American drivers in CART fostered a lot of friction in the paddock and initiated a declining population of Americans on teams. The American response was to go build a better sandbox, the IRL. Presumably to accommodate the American drivers coming up from USAC midgets and sprint cars. At least that was Tony George's claim.

Fact was both sides had more than their fair share of foreign drivers who had lost hope driving in F1 due to escalating cost. Remember when fans referred to CART as the Brazilian league?

How global is CART/ChampCar?

1980's - American drivers won 9 of 10 championships.
1990's - Amercian drivers won 5 of 10 championships.
2000's - American drivers = 0, Brazilian = 3, Canadian = 1, French = 4

If that's not an International magnet, what is? We just need some good American drivers on the grid to attract a US audience. That means stopping the migration of the Scott Speed's and AJA to the France family fortune.

[tbyars]

I'm pretty sure that Gunther Schmidt died in 2005.

Details, details......

[Chaparral66]

Sorry Ben, this myopic perpective of a US only series has got to end. It's 2008 not the 1980's.

The whole dynamic of US open wheel changed when Emerson Fittipaldi won the 1989 PPG IndyCar World Series. That put CART on the global map and attracted many foreign drivers. When Nigel Mansell abandoned F1 for CART the year after he won the F1 World Championship, the media followed 'en masse'. It was also one of the most exciting CART seasons. I remember Paul Tracy winning Long Beach that year.

The increasing domination of non-American drivers in CART fostered a lot of friction in the paddock and initiated a declining population of Americans on teams. The American response was to go build a better sandbox, the IRL. Presumably to accommodate the American drivers coming up from USAC midgets and sprint cars. At least that was Tony George's claim.

Fact was both sides had more than their fair share of foreign drivers who had lost hope driving in F1 due to escalating cost. Remember when fans referred to CART as the Brazilian league?

How global is CART/ChampCar?

1980's - American drivers won 9 of 10 championships.
1990's - Amercian drivers won 5 of 10 championships.
2000's - American drivers = 0, Brazilian = 3, Canadian = 1, French = 4

If that's not an International magnet, what is? We just need some good American drivers on the grid to attract a US audience. That means stopping the migration of the Scott Speed's and AJA to the France family fortune.

Robin Miller has been saying that for years...it's true.

[jensen541]

I feel there are 2 separate issues here :

- attract american fans
- make that a Series can survive

They both require different answers :

I agree that the only way to attract more american fans is first to have a style of racing that is appealing to them and to have more american drivers involved. It is clear that the US TV audience of CC is an issue, but many people don't know that the CC European audience is higher than the US one. And in Europe, they can get paid TV rights. I also went to many races last year and live attendance was not too bad. By European standards, it was very high in fact. So there is more of a TV issue than an attendance issue.

But nothing can happen if a Series is not financially viable. And apart from NASCAR, I cannot see how a racing series could be financially viable if it has to count only on the support of the US market. At least not in today's world.

You therefore come to the basics of the basic as I call it : money. If you have to count on only on market income, there is no way to do it for a very good reason : Car racing mostly depends upons sponsors. But sponsors have changed and sponsorship costs as well. For years, American OW series were relying onto US sponsors. But today, most potential sponsors have become global Companies, not interested to invest into a series that is too much local. And american sponsors find a much better return with NASCAR, at least for the moment. So, to me the reason to be international is not to reproduce European racing in the US, but just to enlarge the audience, attract non US sponsors, drivers and teams and therefore more income.

In fact F1 had to overcome exactly the same issues, this is why Uncle Bernie has pushed to penetrate new markets. Do you think he really cares about the number of chinese people watching F1 ? What he gets is money from governements who are willing to pay more to host a venue than the European tracks. The reality is that most of these classic tracks are nearly bankrupt due to the increasing fees. Who can spend USD 20 to 40 Millions to host a F1 race. F1 was mostly European but is not anymore just for these reasons.

CC can do the same thing, using foreign markets to get the money influx that it needs. And now that Bernie is letting down GP2, there is room on that market. It could become a true alternative to F1 as CART was at one time.

This is why I said before that we are not talking about US or European approaches. We are just talking about a generic problem that each Series has to face in the World. Look at how much A1 GP lost last season : more than USD 200 Millions, but now they have gained Bernies back up and their main investor is a bank, not just a bunch of private owners.

So when Mr. Schmid who died or maybe not says they have gold in hand, it is partially true, but there is a big IF : can they understand it and have they got the resources to do it ?

I would say that with the current management the answer is probably no, unfortunately. Because if their is one major problem in CC, it is the managment, not the market. :D