Does anyone else smell a screw up in the reunification ?

[SoCalPVguy]

Per Robin Miller:
"In the past 24 hours I’ve heard:
• Gerry Forsythe has decided to keep Champ Car going without Kevin Kalkhoven.
• Forsythe is buying all of Derrick Walker’s equipment because he’s going to have to field at least six cars to make sure there’s a dozen on the grid.
• Kalkhoven and Craig Gore, the co-owner of Team Australia who still owes Derrick Walker a fortune from 2007, are going to run a team in the Indy Racing League.
• Kalkhoven owns the majority rights to Long Beach so he’ll still cut a deal with George to have the IRL there in April and Motegi will be postponed until 2009.
• Champ Car will show up at Long Beach for the season opener, then disband and join Tony George’s series at Indianapolis.
• The four Champ Car owners will have a conference call on Friday to decide their fate.
• They’ve already decided to file for bankruptcy but, for some reason, they’re dragging their feet.

The lack of communication from Kalkhoven and Forsythe to the other owners and their employees is disengenous, unprofessional and Enron-like in its insulting silence."

This is a big mess ! On that we must all agree.

And it looks like that this time, unlike past efforts where it looked like TG backed out, the fault lies directly with the amigos who are going to unprecendented heights of poor business practices. KK isn't just bailing out on a whim - they are broke, as evidenced by the un-paid service contracts, unpaid prize money and unpaid Atlantics championship scholarship, as just "tip of the iceberg" examples.

Given the present situation, I cannot see how CCWS could run any kind of "lame duck" series in 2008 prior to a merger in 2009.

Who would attend ?
who would watch ?
what sponsor would invest ? and
what driver would risk life and limb in that scenario ???

The time is now - or never, because if it is not now, CCWS will just cease to exist in 2008 anyway after teams switch over on their own. No way GF could break off a separate CCWS series with less than 10-cars and no sponsorship, if they are going bankrupt now imagine that cost...

Taking one step back this year, unifying the AOWR situation NOW (2008) and allowing the (soon to be) former CCWS management at least some input and coming back in 2009 / 2010 with a better chassis/engine formula is the way to go, VERSUS having CCWS just go away and having IRL absorb a few teams with no former CCWS input, as there will be no incentive in that situation to move forward in the future.

We all need to think longer-term strategically instead of emotionally in the present.

[OWFan19]

I am sorry, but this is a very easy fix. CC stops the bleeding. I am tired of hearing about doing this right. Teams can come over and be a little behind in the competiveness of Indy Car for a few races, which if they will be in 2009 or when ever they finally come over. Might as well do it now and get it done and over with. All they need is a new car, which push come to shove isnt hard for them. They have the haulers, the personel, everything they need to run a team.

The teams are just as guilty as the owners in my opinion. Time from them to take the life rafts that TG has offered them. As long as they give GF or whoever else the reason to keep Champ Car going, they have no right to complain or refer to one series. The opportunity is there, they just need to grow some balls and go to Indy Car.

[Pat Wiatrowski]

Nonsense!

[garyshell]

Nonsense!


Really? Care to be a bit more specific?

Gary

[Brad Erman]

IMO, the genie is out and not going back in the bottle. The questions I have relate to if there will be something more organized than bankruptcy by CCWS. The wrong guy won but (again IMO) the war is over.

[Miatanut]

"screw-up" implies that there was a unified intention. It has been clear the Amigos have been on different pages for a few months. The only difference is it appeared their discord was going to lead to CCWS going out of business, and now it may be that some of them will continue to run a crippled series.

I would also question calling it a reunification. There may be a few CCWS teams that go, but there will be CCWS teams, and legions of fans, who won't go. At least not to the IRL. ALMS stands to profit nicely off all this.

Now if they would just get some closed top P1's!

[weeflyonthewall]

2009 was always the projected year of reunification. Why does everyone think TG is holding all the cards? He is as much under pressure from Honda as both series from the financial shortfalls of racing in general. With most of the obstacles out of the way it will be Tony Cotman who brokers a schedule acceptable to both sides.

[Wilf]

With most of the obstacles out of the way it will be Tony Cotman who brokers a schedule acceptable to both sides.


And his position as saviour was created how?

[Chaparral66]

And his position as saviour was created how?

Maybe we should just let Cotman be arbrtraitor and come up with a solution to this mess.

[garyshell]

Why does everyone think TG is holding all the cards?

I think the deck of cards is quite small. It is a deck of a single wildcard. It is the card that the sponsors are interested in. (They are REALLY the ones holding all the cards by the way.) But back to my "single card theory", that card is a large parcel of land at 16th and Georgetown in Speedway, IN.

Gary

[jimispeed]

If champcar continues, without question, I'm watchin!!!!

[FlatChatRacer]

SoCalPVGuy,

Does it matter if there is a screw up in the unification process?

Not really.

By the end of April, the dust will have settled and we will be able to choose what we want to watch. Whether teams switch to the IRL or not, there will be at least one AOWR series running in 2008.

Now, the IRL may have some new teams and Champ Car may lose some teams. Champ Car could still fold. You know, I am so exasperated with the whole situation, just like you are. However, I am so glad to see the two sides talking again that I am prepared to wait and see.

Have no fear, based on the information we do know and the events thus far, it is almost certain that the split will end this year.

Money, or the lack of it in the Champ Car series will see an end to this mess. I for one, will be glad to finally see one series again.

[Sandfly]

"screw-up" implies that there was a unified intention. It has been clear the Amigos have been on different pages for a few months. The only difference is it appeared their discord was going to lead to CCWS going out of business, and now it may be that some of them will continue to run a crippled series.

I would also question calling it a reunification. There may be a few CCWS teams that go, but there will be CCWS teams, and legions of fans, who won't go. At least not to the IRL. ALMS stands to profit nicely off all this.

Now if they would just get some closed top P1's!


There was no unified intention to merge. It is clear that the discord created an opportunity to weaken CC and perhaps push for a rapid, poorly planned "merger" that strongly favors the IRL and leaves the CC teams, promoters, suppliers, and fans in the cold. That plan seems to have been stopped. The rumour attacks continue however, in an effort to pull CC apart by creating uncertainty. The CC brass still have the best race operations in the business, but they will need to act quickly to stabilize the team, move forward and run the contracted '08 season - which is only 8 weeks away.

Perhaps then they can work with the IRL to put together an agrement that takes the best of both series an gives us an AOWS that we can all be proud of.

[Chaparral66]

There was no unified intention to merge. It is clear that the discord created an opportunity to weaken CC and perhaps push for a rapid, poorly planned "merger" that strongly favors the IRL and leaves the CC teams, promoters, suppliers, and fans in the cold. That plan seems to have been stopped. The rumour attacks continue however, in an effort to pull CC apart by creating uncertainty. The CC brass still have the best race operations in the business, but they will need to act quickly to stabilize the team, move forward and run the contracted '08 season - which is only 8 weeks away.

Perhaps then they can work with the IRL to put together an agrement that takes the best of both series an gives us an AOWS that we can all be proud of.

Yeah. That'll happen...

I agree for the most part. TG's approach was to attack from within as oppose to a full frontal assault, as he has done in the past, and failed. CC needs to take control of their own future and come out with a deifinitive statement as to what's happening. Spring Training is next month in Laguna Seca and we still don't know if there is going to be a Champ Car series or not.

[speeddurango]

Actually, when I read that article, it sounds quite good to me. If the truth is exactly as what RM stated, then there's a very clear picture that the only obstacle in the way is Gerry Forsythe who seems to "drag his feet" a little bit. Long Beach will go to IRL in 2009, KK is heading towards IRL. And maybe they will just pack up after Long Beach as what the article stated, then it sounds just right to me since it looks like there's a strong possiblity Honda doesn't want to move the date so there needs to be a race at Long Beach and that's what Champ Car will probably do at its last step. Oh and last, they are having a meeting today, so the things might get a little more clearer after a few more hours.

[mikiec]

it looks like there's a strong possiblity Honda doesn't want to move the date so there needs to be a race at Long Beach

How does it look like that? From all accounts I've read, TG and others seemed positive about the outcome of the Honda meeting. I get the impression that Honda have agreed to move it IF they need to, hence no announcement as yet.

[Albert D. Kallal]

How does it look like that? From all accounts I've read, TG and others seemed positive about the outcome of the Honda meeting. I get the impression that Honda have agreed to move it IF they need to, hence no announcement as yet.

If the outcome and results of the meeting were positive, then why not simply state that to the press? Why not leak this information to Robin Miller? I cannot see any downside of the results of this meeting being made public.

If Honda and IRL is willing to move the race date, then that makes Honda look really good and shows that they have flexibility and are willing to bend on issues for the good of all open wheel racing fans.

If the IRL is also willing to move the race date, then that makes TG a good as it shows he’s a good guy and willing to work towards some merger deal.

You going to have to explain to me exactly what the downside is by stating what happened at a meeting in Japan? That meeting is now approximately one week old in time. What exactly would the harm be in stating that Honda has complete flexibility and is willing to work towards a merger deal by moving a simple date?

It makes absolutely no sense at all not to mention or make even ONE kind of squeak statement about what happened in Japan? In fact we hear nothing zero, zlitch, not a peep from anyone. Now, exactly where is Robin Miller when you need him? You mean RM can’t make a phone call to his IRL sources to report the results of the meeting? You would think robin Miller would at least call someone and ask a what happened at SIMPLE meeting in Japan to move a simple race date?

Why is all of sudden Robert Miller so quiet on this issue? What happned to such an important meeting that robin Miller can not get any details about?
It sounds to me this trip to Japan was for a greater reason then some race date.

Considering that TG and the head of Honda USA performance went on this trip, we have to ask what exactly was that they were asking for from Honda? My spider sense tells me that they were going to the Honda brass and executives to ask for more money to pay for some of these teams in a merger.

The problem here is exactly what is the benefit to the Honda executives in Japan who have to fork out additional money to these yanks that screwed this up and created this mess in the first place? Why should the executives and Honda brass in Japan pay for TG to get control of open wheel racing? Why should Honda pay for these mistakes is no doubt what the exectives at Honda in Japan are asking themselves at this moment in time?

Without additional information as to what transpired at this meeting in Japan, I am certainly speculating as to the above. However, my spider sense tells me that Honda wants to bail on this whole thing altogether, and the IRL is simply in crisis mode.

It would be pretty hard to believe that someone as a result of this meeting would not leak or give some information to someone like Robin Miller. For Honda/IRL to come out with information that they are willing to move this race date would ALSO make the champ car people once again look very bad and appear as not being flexible.

There’s just absolutely no reason for any information about the meetings in Japan to be withheld from the public, but that is exactly what we see occurring at this point in time.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

[Chaparral66]

If the outcome and results of the meeting were positive, then why not simply state that to the press? Why not leak this information to Robin Miller? I cannot see any downside of the results of this meeting being made public.

If Honda and IRL is willing to move the race date, then that makes Honda look really good and shows that they have flexibility and are willing to bend on issues for the good of all open wheel racing fans.

If the IRL is also willing to move the race date, then that makes TG a good as it shows he’s a good guy and willing to work towards some merger deal.

You going to have to explain to me exactly what the downside is by stating what happened at a meeting in Japan? That meeting is now approximately one week old in time. What exactly would the harm be in stating that Honda has complete flexibility and is willing to work towards a merger deal by moving a simple date?

It makes absolutely no sense at all not to mention or make even ONE kind of squeak statement about what happened in Japan? In fact we hear nothing zero, zlitch, not a peep from anyone. Now, exactly where is Robin Miller when you need him? You mean RM can’t make a phone call to his IRL sources to report the results of the meeting? You would think robin Miller would at least call someone and ask a what happened at SIMPLE meeting in Japan to move a simple race date?

Why is all of sudden Robert Miller so quiet on this issue? What happned to such an important meeting that robin Miller can not get any details about?
It sounds to me this trip to Japan was for a greater reason then some race date.

Considering that TG and the head of Honda USA performance went on this trip, we have to ask what exactly was that they were asking for from Honda? My spider sense tells me that they were going to the Honda brass and executives to ask for more money to pay for some of these teams in a merger.

The problem here is exactly what is the benefit to the Honda executives in Japan who have to fork out additional money to these yanks that screwed this up and created this mess in the first place? Why should the executives and Honda brass in Japan pay for TG to get control of open wheel racing? Why should Honda pay for these mistakes is no doubt what the exectives at Honda in Japan are asking themselves at this moment in time?

Without additional information as to what transpired at this meeting in Japan, I am certainly speculating as to the above. However, my spider sense tells me that Honda wants to bail on this whole thing altogether, and the IRL is simply in crisis mode.

It would be pretty hard to believe that someone as a result of this meeting would not leak or give some information to someone like Robin Miller. For Honda/IRL to come out with information that they are willing to move this race date would ALSO make the champ car people once again look very bad and appear as not being flexible.

There’s just absolutely no reason for any information about the meetings in Japan to be withheld from the public, but that is exactly what we see occurring at this point in time.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com

Albert, what makes you think Robin Miller hasn't been working the phones trying to find out what's going on? Miller is obsessed with open wheel. He just came out with another column on SPEEDTV.com about this very thing, about how his phone is off the hook with people calling wanting to know, people calling with tips that he has to confirm with other sources, and he is frustrated about the lack of information. I think you can count on it when something happens, RM will know before anyone else.

As far as Honda is concerned, you could be right. I might even go further and speculate that Honda may have given Tony George an ultimatum to work out a deal with CCWS or they are gone after 2008 (when's the contract up?). That may not be true, but it's sure fun to think about...

[weeflyonthewall]

I think the deck of cards is quite small. It is a deck of a single wildcard. It is the card that the sponsors are interested in. (They are REALLY the ones holding all the cards by the way.) But back to my "single card theory", that card is a large parcel of land at 16th and Georgetown in Speedway, IN.

Gary

How does your post-season perspective compare to this pre-season one?

[garyshell]

How does your post-season perspective compare to this pre-season one?


I regards to the quote from me, precisely the same. The sponsors who control the purse strings and thereby the entire series, still are only really interested in the 500. They know in order to sponsor there, that they have to sign on for a full year. But without the 500, they would have no interest at all.

Gary

[Old3Fan]

If there was a screwup it was the fact that it took 10 years or so to get it un-screwed up. Open wheel fell off the radar and will probably never be while it was allowing Nascar to be the dominant racing series that it now is.

[Miatanut]

The important thing was protecting Indy, which is now safe.

[dataman1]

There were better ways to protect Indy as Waldo pointed out on many occasions. I miss Waldo.

[DBell]

There were better ways to protect Indy as Waldo pointed out on many occasions. I miss Waldo.

I believe Miatanut's post was dripping with sarcasm. ;)

[weeflyonthewall]

The important thing was protecting Indy, which is now safe.


I believe Miatanut's post was dripping with sarcasm. ;)

May is covered, what about races the rest of the year? If promoters continue to perceive "its all about Indy" then outside of the Brickyard this style open wheel racing will continue its slow death.

[Chris R]

Isn't this more or less why CART was started in the first place??

Assuming that is more or less correct - does anyone learn from history??

[Miatanut]

I believe Miatanut's post was dripping with sarcasm. ;)
:)

[-Helix-]

The important thing was protecting Indy, which is now safe.

I know right.

Protecting your interests and attempting to seize even more? You would think America was capitalist or something!

[Miatanut]

I know right.

Protecting your interests and attempting to seize even more? You would think America was capitalist or something!

It's hard to see how he protected his interests when Pole Day is no longer a sellout, and you can now show up race day and buy a ticket to it. :confused:

As if that wasn't bad enough, he now has to fork out million$ a year so there are enough cars on the track. Tony Hulman must be spinning in his grave!

[Cart750hp]

Per Robin Miller:
"In the past 24 hours I’ve heard:
• Gerry Forsythe has decided to keep Champ Car going without Kevin Kalkhoven.
• Forsythe is buying all of Derrick Walker’s equipment because he’s going to have to field at least six cars to make sure there’s a dozen on the grid.
• Kalkhoven and Craig Gore, the co-owner of Team Australia who still owes Derrick Walker a fortune from 2007, are going to run a team in the Indy Racing League.
• Kalkhoven owns the majority rights to Long Beach so he’ll still cut a deal with George to have the IRL there in April and Motegi will be postponed until 2009.
• Champ Car will show up at Long Beach for the season opener, then disband and join Tony George’s series at Indianapolis.
• The four Champ Car owners will have a conference call on Friday to decide their fate.
• They’ve already decided to file for bankruptcy but, for some reason, they’re dragging their feet.

The lack of communication from Kalkhoven and Forsythe to the other owners and their employees is disengenous, unprofessional and Enron-like in its insulting silence."

This is a big mess ! On that we must all agree.

Robin is right, just a big mess. Forsythe, Kalkhoven, Gentilozzi and Petit spent so much money on a series which was once great but because of their financial issues, the series end up with IndyCar anyways. With the fans, the drivers, the teams owners and the series owners said bad stuff against the possibility of joining the IRL they end up in IRL eventually. Forsythe may have a plan but this will cost much more money than they or he already lost. But before I buy into Forsythe or Miller story, I don't believe Forsythe will still be able to start a new series....this guy is out of money. Ask AJ Allmendinger, Paul Tracy, and Patrick Carpentier about Forsythe and listen to what they say about this guy. I believe, he's preparing to join IRL next year rather than forming a new series. If that's the case, imagine how many people will hate his gut more same as to how many people hated TG before.


And it looks like that this time, unlike past efforts where it looked like TG backed out, the fault lies directly with the amigos who are going to unprecendented heights of poor business practices. KK isn't just bailing out on a whim - they are broke, as evidenced by the un-paid service contracts, unpaid prize money and unpaid Atlantics championship scholarship, as just "tip of the iceberg" examples.

Given the present situation, I cannot see how CCWS could run any kind of "lame duck" series in 2008 prior to a merger in 2009.

Who would attend ?
who would watch ?
what sponsor would invest ? and
what driver would risk life and limb in that scenario ???

The time is now - or never, because if it is not now, CCWS will just cease to exist in 2008 anyway after teams switch over on their own. No way GF could break off a separate CCWS series with less than 10-cars and no sponsorship, if they are going bankrupt now imagine that cost...

Taking one step back this year, unifying the AOWR situation NOW (2008) and allowing the (soon to be) former CCWS management at least some input and coming back in 2009 / 2010 with a better chassis/engine formula is the way to go, VERSUS having CCWS just go away and having IRL absorb a few teams with no former CCWS input, as there will be no incentive in that situation to move forward in the future.

We all need to think longer-term strategically instead of emotionally in the present.

I totally agree. It's a waste of time for some fans here hoping the lies and the BS from CC is still out there and may return and would cause a huge problem in IRL......funny.

CCWS is long gone and even the fanatics are at extinct. CART and CCWS brought good races before but bad management, financial troubles and an over-rated series that couldn't compete put CCWS to fold and teams joining IRL. Teams who supported the series and were loyal bit them back in the butt. In reality, being loyal and supportive to a series who doesn't give a rat's butt other than their own interests really is not worth trying. Game over, folks. No rich man will start a series again and cause another stir ups for decades of losing money and hurting the sport. It's time to put the past in history and watch this IndyCar series grow once again.

[NickFalzone]

wow, thanks for responding to a post from back in February and acting like it was from yesterday.

[Cart750hp]

wow, thanks for responding to a post from back in February and acting like it was from yesterday.

yeah, tell that to the fanatics that are still waiting for Santa to come down on their chimneys.

[garyshell]

CCWS is long gone and even the fanatics are at extinct.

What the hell does that sentence mean?


CART and CCWS brought good races before but bad management, financial troubles and an over-rated series that couldn't compete put CCWS to fold and teams joining IRL.

Never mind the fact that BOTH series were in the dumper and over rated by your measurement criteria. And never mind that the REAL reason that one series won out over the other was control of a particular piece of real estate that was ALL that mattered to the folks on Madison Ave. who had and still have ultimate control of the sport.


Teams who supported the series and were loyal bit them back in the butt. In reality, being loyal and supportive to a series who doesn't give a rat's butt other than their own interests really is not worth trying. Game over, folks.

Which series are we talking about here? I know which one YOU mean, but again the reality is that BOTH series left a lot of bodies kicked to the curb, to further their own interests. Neither of them were Mother Teressa.


No rich man will start a series again and cause another stir ups for decades of losing money and hurting the sport. It's time to put the past in history and watch this IndyCar series grow once again.

Now here we totally agree, but with one caveat. The admonishment to get over it applies to BOTH sides. You might want to read that last sentence to yourself in a mirror.

Gary

[garyshell]

yeah, tell that to the fanatics that are still waiting for Santa to come down on their chimneys.


And the ones who think King George walks on water and saved open wheel racing. :eek:

Gary

[bblocker68]

"CCWS is long gone and even the fanatics are at extinct."

CCF is still up and running last time I checked. Those guys will probably never go away.

[SoCalPVguy]

How did my OLD thread here end up being re-ignited ???
The subject is DEAD, whatever bumps along the road, for better or worse, the "re-unific-mergific-ation" DID occur - so this is a DEAD topic.

Mod's please close this thread.

[weeflyonthewall]

How did my OLD thread here end up being re-ignited ???
The subject is DEAD, whatever bumps along the road, for better or worse, the "re-unific-mergific-ation" DID occur - so this is a DEAD topic.

Mod's please close this thread.

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago? Your post was pre-season. Some of us waited until after the last race to revisit the topic you initiated.

[JSH]

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago? Your post was pre-season. Some of us waited until after the last race to revisit the topic you initiated.

Yes.

United we stand... Divided we fall.

[pits4me]

Yes.

United we stand... Divided we fall.

Comprehensive solutions are most welcome.


No, CART didn't have a problem with Indy. They (the car owners which founded CART) had a problem with USAC, which was the sanctioning body for the series at the time.

Divisiveness never helped anyone. At least we don't have to deal with Ferrari loving FIA part time stewards in our form os OWR.

[SoCalPVguy]

Is the open wheel world better off than it was a year ago?

That, sir, is an excellent topic for a new thread.