CC NOT going Bankrupt!

[clydekart]

KK confirmed CC is not going bankrupt and was juat a BS rumour made up by some IRL lacky. Thus, you have to wonder if anything going on this week is true. Hopefully the one true rumour is KK selling out to GF, but who knows.
Obviously someone high up on either side is desperate and many signs point to TG. Keep believing RM, who's #1 source is TG and you will keep getting a skewed perception of reality.

KK confirmed CC is not going bankrupt and was juat a BS rumour made up by some IRL lacky.

Except he doesn't say it was a rumour made up by an IRL lacky.

He says he doesn't know where it came from.

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/303441

'Meanwhile, Kalkhoven, contacted at his California home, insisted the bankruptcy reports were "absolutely wrong."

"I have no idea where this came from," he said'

So, while you may be right to question Robin Miller's accounts, you yourself are not averse to spinning. If you want to complain about somebody's standards, have some yourself.

[JasonD]

As for KK selling out to GF, how is that good? How does that make CC stronger especially if PG is still involved.

[clydekart]

Except he doesn't say it was a rumour made up by an IRL lacky.

He says he doesn't know where it came from.

However using deduction, it sure didn't come from CC.

However using deduction, it sure didn't come from CC.

But you have no evidence to suggest it came from the IRL.

Deduction alone is not evidence.

[JasonD]

However using deduction, it sure didn't come from CC.

But it may not have come from the IRL either, it could have come from anywhere, from either side or from someone outside, you dont know.

[clydekart]

Except he doesn't say it was a rumour made up by an IRL lacky.

He says he doesn't know where it came from.

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/303441

'Meanwhile, Kalkhoven, contacted at his California home, insisted the bankruptcy reports were "absolutely wrong."

"I have no idea where this came from," he said'

So, while you may be right to question Robin Miller's accounts, you yourself are not averse to spinning. If you want to complain about somebody's standards, have some yourself.


I am responding to a post on this forum that said CC going Bankrupt in 48 hours and I was showing that this was complete conjecture or fabrication. I don't see how my "standards" are in question.

KK confirmed CC is not going bankrupt and was juat a BS rumour made up by some IRL lacky.


I don't see how my "standards" are in question.

Really?

Read what you wrote.

Kalkhoven does not mention a source of the rumour.
Kalkhoven does not mention the IRL.
Kalkhoven does not mention an IRL 'lacky'.

You decided to post that he had.

That, dear boy, is not a very high 'standard'.

[clydekart]

Really?

Read what you wrote.

Kalkhoven does not mention a source of the rumour.
Kalkhoven does not mention the IRL.
Kalkhoven does not mention an IRL 'lacky'.

You decided to post that he had.

That, dear boy, is not a very high 'standard'.

Really, this must be a religion-but wait where is the proof God exists! People who believe must not have very high standards.

[DavePI2]

saying the reports are wrong is not denying that cc is going bankrupt.

David

[ChaimWitz]

Given KK's history of frugality with the truth, I will assume that this is a statement similar to many others he has made in the past few years. Time will show us all if what he says is fact or deception. My money is on the latter since I know far too many people who are close to the reality of the situation who tell me that bankruptcy was and is absolutely positively on the front burner for OWRS. The 131 people who are waiting breathlessly for Paper's next post (based upon what Paulie G-String and Steve Johnson are telling him) on ****wagon.com view KK's statement as a beacon of hope and salvation. For the rest of us living in the real world, it is further proof of the delusional, dishonest and manipulative mentality that has defined the OWRS era. They have no plan. They only have ego so they should go.

[bblocker68]

Did Roger Clemmens start this post??? It rings about as true as his testimony yesterday :)

No one knows anything. This waiting game sux!!!!!!!!!!

[heelntoe]

Did Roger Clemmens start this post??? It rings about as true as his testimony yesterday :)

No one knows anything. This waiting game sux!!!!!!!!!!

Amen to all of that...but I'm happy to go out on a limb and say that the BK will happen, just not on the same schedule everyone thought. GF is a very quirky guy, but he's not been the primary cash source over the past few years and given his lackluster interest until recently, he won't have the staying power and will ultimately fold. I also think if he's actually bought Walker's equipment and KK and Gore have partnered to go to the IRL, NHL is gone shortly too and there's no ego that can withstand that over time...it will look way too foolish...IMO, of course.

[garyshell]

KK confirmed CC is not going bankrupt and was just a BS rumour made up by some IRL lacky.


Except he doesn't say it was a rumour made up by an IRL lacky.

He says he doesn't know where it came from.

http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/303441

'Meanwhile, Kalkhoven, contacted at his California home, insisted the bankruptcy reports were "absolutely wrong."

"I have no idea where this came from," he said'



I am responding to a post on this forum that said CC going Bankrupt in 48 hours and I was showing that this was complete conjecture or fabrication. I don't see how my "standards" are in question.


Hmm, do the two bold underlined segments give you any clue, as to why your "standards" are in question? You fabricated part of the story, plain and simple. You didn't represent it as an editorial comment in any way, you implied it as fact.

Gary

Really, this must be a religion-but wait where is the proof God exists! People who believe must not have very high standards.

I cannot 'prove' that God exists.

I have proved that you have fabricated, and stated as if it were a fact, part of your initial post.

Huge difference.

I cannot 'prove' that God exists.

Although I could ask her when she gets home!

[garyshell]

Although I could ask her when she gets home!


And you better have a Valentine's Day card and gift in your hand when you do, bud.

Gary

[clydekart]

Hmm, do the two bold underlined segments give you any clue, as to why your "standards" are in question? You fabricated part of the story, plain and simple. You didn't represent it as an editorial comment in any way, you implied it as fact.

Gary

Check out RM's latest article "MILLER: Unfication Frustrations" at Speed and you will see an article who's list of sources include "mechanics and engineers"
with NO names, or specific quotes. I bet you believe this BS from the fair and balanced Fox-Speed TV. Read between the lines and you will clearly see a bias against CC and for irl. I wonder how much cash TG gave RM to perpetuate this propaganda.

[CCFan]

Check out RM's latest article "MILLER: Unfication Frustrations" at Speed and you will see an article who's list of sources include "mechanics and engineers"
with NO names, or specific quotes. I bet you believe this BS from the fair and balanced Fox-Speed TV. Read between the lines and you will clearly see a bias against CC and for irl. I wonder how much cash TG gave RM to perpetuate this propaganda.


I don't think TG had to give Miller any cash. I think RM is just as frustrated as the rest of us with this 13-year mess & he's simply pointing fingers at the guys who he now sees as perpetuating it ad-infinitum.

And you better have a Valentine's Day card and gift in your hand when you do, bud.

Gary

Well, I have now.








The only problem is that I didn't this morning.

[garyshell]

Hmm, do the two bold underlined segments give you any clue, as to why your "standards" are in question? You fabricated part of the story, plain and simple. You didn't represent it as an editorial comment in any way, you implied it as fact.

Gary


Check out RM's latest article "MILLER: Unfication Frustrations" at Speed and you will see an article who's list of sources include "mechanics and engineers"
with NO names, or specific quotes. I bet you believe this BS from the fair and balanced Fox-Speed TV. Read between the lines and you will clearly see a bias against CC and for irl. I wonder how much cash TG gave RM to perpetuate this propaganda.


Hmmm, please show me where Robin directly contradicts something that was available as a direct quote???

Your comparison of what you said and what Robin said doesn't even hold a single molecule of water. What does Robin's alleged bias have to do with your DIRECT fabrication of what KK said? Just so we don't loose sight of what WAS said:
KK confirmed CC is not going bankrupt and was juat a BS rumour made up by some IRL lacky.

KK confirmed no such thing about where the rumor originated.

Gary

[garyshell]

Well, I have now.








The only problem is that I didn't this morning.


Oooooooooo...... No soup for you!

Gary

[clydekart]

KK confirmed CC is not going bankrupt and was juat a BS rumour made up by some IRL lacky. Thus, you have to wonder if anything going on this week is true. Hopefully the one true rumour is KK selling out to GF, but who knows.
Obviously someone high up on either side is desperate and many signs point to TG. Keep believing RM, who's #1 source is TG and you will keep getting a skewed perception of reality.

My first sentence may be ambiguous to some, but can be clarified with a period after CC is not going bankrupt.

RM states the following:The phone calls haven’t stopped, they’ve just taken on a different tone. Somewhere between confused and frustrated and angry.

Champ Car drivers, mechanics, engineers, staffers and, yes, even owners want to know what in the hell is going on?

In the past 24 hours I’ve heard:
• Gerry Forsythe has decided to keep Champ Car going without Kevin Kalkhoven.
• Forsythe is buying all of Derrick Walker’s equipment because he’s going to have to field at least six cars to make sure there’s a dozen on the grid.
• Kalkhoven and Craig Gore, the co-owner of Team Australia who still owes Derrick Walker a fortune from 2007, are going to run a team in the Indy Racing League.
• Kalkhoven owns the majority rights to Long Beach so he’ll still cut a deal with George to have the IRL there in April and Motegi will be postponed until 2009.
• Champ Car will show up at Long Beach for the season opener, then disband and join Tony George’s series at Indianapolis.
• The four Champ Car owners will have a conference call on Friday to decide their fate.
• They’ve already decided to file for bankruptcy but, for some reason, they’re dragging their feet.

Now, mind you, this stuff didn’t come from my imagination or one of those chat rooms, these different scenarios came directly from various CC owners, workers and drivers.


All of the above is complete BS not backed-up with any proof--"just I heard".

May be convincing to sheeple but not me. In fact it might as well come from his imagination.

My first sentence may be ambiguous to some, but can be clarified with a period after CC is not going bankrupt............

.............May be convincing to sheeple but not me. In fact it might as well come from his imagination.

So Miller's version cannot be considered convincing because there is no proof at the moment, but your first sentence will be clarified in a while when you will have proof?

Doesn't seem to me that your sentence is in any way a more plausible one than any of Miller's, given that.

Oh, and even if the Bankruptcy outcome doesn't happen, that hardly makes it a 'fact' that an IRL lacky came up with the rumour.

The only 'fact' you have proved is that you are willing to lie to this forum about what Kalkhoven said.

You therefore have zero credibility.

[clydekart]

So Miller's version cannot be considered convincing because there is no proof at the moment, but your first sentence will be clarified in a while when you will have proof?

Doesn't seem to me that your sentence is in any way a more plausible one than any of Miller's, given that.

Oh, and even if the Bankruptcy outcome doesn't happen, that hardly makes it a 'fact' that an IRL lacky came up with the rumour.

The only 'fact' you have proved is that you are willing to lie to this forum about what Kalkhoven said.

You therefore have zero credibility.

I have no interest in anyone's opinion of me or if they think I have any credibility but just to help you a bit more here is the revised first sentence:
KK confirmed (see Star article) CC is not going bankrupt. This was just a BS
rumour made-up my some irl lacky (my deduction). Now, I don't have time to go into more detail as I have to walk my Border Collie.

KK confirmed CC is not going bankrupt and was juat a BS rumour made up by some IRL lacky.


I have no interest in anyone's opinion of me or if they think I have any credibility but just to help you a bit more here is the revised first sentence:
KK confirmed (see Star article) CC is not going bankrupt. This was just a BS
rumour made-up my some irl lacky (my deduction). Now, I don't have time to go into more detail as I have to walk my Border Collie.

Sure you're not going to shut the stable door after horse has bolted?

After all, with your record of non-truths in this thread, I don't believe for one moment that you have a dog.

[clydekart]

Sure you're not going to shut the stable door after horse has bolted?

After all, with your record of non-truths in this thread, I don't believe for one moment that you have a dog.

Seriously, that's funny.

[OWFan19]

Robin knows a hell of alot more than 99.9% of the people in here. He has been around for years, and he does get phone calls from drivers and crew members. He doesnt need to give names! Its clear that Champ Car is in disary. KK, GF, PG, SJ, all those guys are doing seperate things, none of which is good for Champ Car. Dont blame Robin for saying the things that need to be said. And if it looks like he is pro-IRL, it because the amateurs at Champ Car are doing everything they can to make the IRL look so good. Will it hurt the IRL, no. The IRL could use cars, but if Champ Car doesnt merge into IRL, it doesnt hurt the IRL in the slightest. The IRL has one of the biggest races in the world, ok t.v coverage, Danica and a handful of other marketable drivers. KK knows it, his team knows it, as well as most of the other teams. Why nothing has been done is the question everyone wants the answer too, but noone will step up and answer.

[garyshell]

KK confirmed CC is not going bankrupt and was juat a BS rumour made up by some IRL lacky.


My first sentence may be ambiguous to some, but can be clarified with a period after CC is not going bankrupt.


So with a single bit of punctuation you want to now retract what you said? There was no ambiguity in what you originally wrote. The intent was clear. And your intent now is equally clear, you want to back away from the statement and take personal ownership for the second phrase in the statement, now that the FACTS have been revealed about what KK said.

Gary

[clydekart]

So with a single bit of punctuation you want to now retract what you said? There was no ambiguity in what you originally wrote. The intent was clear. And your intent now is equally clear, you want to back away from the statement and take personal ownership for the second phrase in the statement, now that the FACTS have been revealed about what KK said.

Gary

I'm not retracting anything, anyone can read the article with KK's statements. Or even better, give KK a call and ask him what he thinks of TG (off the record of course).

[JasonD]

I'm not retracting anything, anyone can read the article with KK's statements. Or even better, give KK a call and ask him what he thinks of TG (off the record of course).

You just dont get it. You stated that KK said someone from the IRL started the bankruptcy stuff, which is clearly not what he said. Those were your words NOT his. If someone was lazy enough not to read the article then they may take your word for it, clearly in this case they would have been stupid to do so.

You know thats what you wrote, you were a very bad little boy for doing it, you have kinda apologized and now everyone can move on.

Grow up and keep your theories separate from the facts.

[ShiftingGears]

I don't trust Kalkhoven either, his actions such as blaming the lack of a merger on rumours was utterly pathetic on his part.

[Champcar4life]

I think I am going to wait this one out and see where the road takes me I am hearing all these rumors and statements that people are hearing reading, or what every, I for one will wait to offical hear the truth, no matter what the out come is. With all the rumors and stuff flying it hard to know what the truth is, its coming a confusing state of a fairs.

[Rogelio]

Here we have a major report regarding the fate of Champ Car. KK denies the rumors from his home and that is supposed to suggest that all is ok. If, KK and Champ Car were a professsional series, you would assume there would be a NEWS CONFERENCE denying the report. I can only specualte that CC is in deep trouble.

[jimispeed]

I can only specualte that CC is in deep trouble.


Or, you could speculate that they're not in deep trouble....

It's that unclear!!!

[FlatChatRacer]

No Jimispeed,

Rogelio is right. Champ Car is in DEEP financial trouble. KK is getting very nervous, because he wants to cut a deal and salvage something before it's too late. That's only my opinion of course.

[beachbum]

Or, you could speculate that they're not in deep trouble....

It's that unclear!!!Very true. What is clear is that this is a real mess. Once again, CCWS sits on its collective hands and doesn't make much effort to clear up all of the speculation. Come on guys - tell us something of substance. If this goes on much longer CCWS will be the laughing stock of motor racing. Make a decision and stop fighting like little children on a playground.

[Chaparral66]

Very true. What is clear is that this is a real mess. Once again, CCWS sits on its collective hands and doesn't make much effort to clear up all of the speculation. Come on guys - tell us something of substance. If this goes on much longer CCWS will be the laughing stock of motor racing. Make a decision and stop fighting like little children on a playground.

The France Family at NASCAR is already laughing at open wheel in general. Ever since Bill france Jr. suggested to Tony George he start his own series if he was unhappy with the state of the sport, they've been laughing. Not even France Jr. could have anticipated the chaos that ensued when the split occured, paving the way for an already quickly growing NASCAR to explode upon the scene and become respectable. TG played right into France's hands, and now NASCAR is THE synonym for motorsports in this country.

[EngineGuy]

Very true. What is clear is that this is a real mess. Once again, CCWS sits on its collective hands and doesn't make much effort to clear up all of the speculation. Come on guys - tell us something of substance. If this goes on much longer CCWS will be the laughing stock of motor racing. Make a decision and stop fighting like little children on a playground.

All we have been given by both sides is lip service. I think both sides are in big financial trouble. If they were smart they would both attempt to run their series this year and have a true merger for 2009. Most of you guys here are on the outside looking in and just feeding on all the B.S. I’m on the inside of the circle and my job depends on the outcome of this whole mess. Here is my $.02 Run both schedules as planned have four (4) All-Star races two on Champ Car’s turf and two on the IRL’s. There are enough spare cars and engines to invite say the top 5 in point standings from both sides to run along side with the regulars from each series. This way they wouldn’t burn any bridges with the race tracks they have already committed too. Then work on a chassis and engine package for the 2009 season. I think this would give the new series for 2009 much more creditably and would attract a lot more sponsors. As I said before this is just my $.02 and I hope to keep my job for 2008.

[EngineGuy]

The France Family at NASCAR is already laughing at open wheel in general. Ever since Bill france Jr. suggested to Tony George he start his own series if he was unhappy with the state of the sport, they've been laughing. Not even France Jr. could have anticipated the chaos that ensued when the split occured, paving the way for an already quickly growing NASCAR to explode upon the scene and become respectable. TG played right into France's hands, and now NASCAR is THE synonym for motorsports in this country.

So true!!

Remember NASCAR is a family sport, "We do whatever the France tells us to do". :D

[OWFan19]

All we have been given by both sides is lip service. I think both sides are in big financial trouble. If they were smart they would both attempt to run their series this year and have a true merger for 2009. Most of you guys here are on the outside looking in and just feeding on all the B.S. I’m on the inside of the circle and my job depends on the outcome of this whole mess. Here is my $.02 Run both schedules as planned have four (4) All-Star races two on Champ Car’s turf and two on the IRL’s. There are enough spare cars and engines to invite say the top 5 in point standings from both sides to run along side with the regulars from each series. This way they wouldn’t burn any bridges with the race tracks they have already committed too. Then work on a chassis and engine package for the 2009 season. I think this would give the new series for 2009 much more creditably and would attract a lot more sponsors. As I said before this is just my $.02 and I hope to keep my job for 2008.

I hope you keep your job too. But I think you need to have an all or nothing approach. We are making this out to be much harder than it is. Dont you think that having only 6 or 7 cars on the track would burn some bridges with race venues? That is the possible reality. Furthermore, does anyone from Champ Car deserve the right to have any part in running the series?

[EngineGuy]

I hope you keep your job too. But I think you need to have an all or nothing approach. We are making this out to be much harder than it is. Dont you think that having only 6 or 7 cars on the track would burn some bridges with race venues? That is the possible reality. Furthermore, does anyone from Champ Car deserve the right to have any part in running the series?

I don't know where you came up with that number, we had 14 cars at the Sebring test. At my last count the I.R.L. had only signed 10 drivers for the 2008 season.

[Chaparral66]

If you have an all or nothing approach, there are going to be some parties dependent on either series who will be hurt and angry to a point where open wheel will take years to repair the damage. At this point, there needs to be some effort to reach some level of mutual agreement so there will be some confidence of the part of open wheel supporters that they will be able to follow through with committments this year. If TG manages to railroad this thing through, comments by EngineGuy are enough to be apprehensive that a large group of people will bleed in the aftermath. I'd like to avoid that to save jobs.

[EngineGuy]

“Indy Car World Series” Let Tony Cotman run it and schedule the races. TG and the 3 Amigos just sit back and smile for the television cameras. Okay I will stop dreaming now. :dozey:

[Ironman]

Only one series is under attack for not paying purse money (at least in a timely manner according to DW) and facing a lawsuit for not paying their bills. These facts are not disputed.

[gofastandwynn]

At my last count the I.R.L. had only signed 10 drivers for the 2008 season.

Well, your count is off by 1/3 but hey, it is only your 4th post...

[speeddurango]

I don't know where you came up with that number, we had 14 cars at the Sebring test. At my last count the I.R.L. had only signed 10 drivers for the 2008 season.

So you might want to do a little research on what's been happening so far. Not much had happened until after the Sebring test.

On topic, Champ Car didn't bankcrupt in 48 hours, but it's always like this if you can only get information from insider, nothing wrong with that, the only thing that's wrong is when somebody take those insider information as 1000% guranteed solid bullet proof fact and when it didn't happen they go nuts and starts whining all over the information provider.

[tbyars]

I don't know where you came up with that number, we had 14 cars at the Sebring test.

How many of those cars had been signed and announced? Seven or 8? How many of those signed cars belonged to NHL, Manardi and PKV, who have been rumored to be moving to the IRL?


At my last count the I.R.L. had only signed 10 drivers for the 2008 season.

Please give us your list of cars that YOU consider signed. I think you will find that number is 15, not 10.

How can we give your posts any credibility at all when you can't get the basic facts - facts that have been out there for the public for weeks - anywhere close to right?

[tbyars]

I have no interest in anyone's opinion of me or if they think I have any credibility but just to help you a bit more here is the revised first sentence:
KK confirmed (see Star article) CC is not going bankrupt. This was just a BS
rumour made-up my some irl lacky (my deduction). Now, I don't have time to go into more detail as I have to walk my Border Collie.

Look, there is nothing ambiguous about your first sentence. It is right there for all to see. Nothing gives you the ability to do a "do over."

You did what all agenda-driven fanboys do...you made a statement based on your agenda that just simply wasn't true to try and make your point. And you made the problem worse by trying to justify that in several different ways.

Everyone can see clearly what you did, and everyone can see your justifications don't hold water.

If you don't care about your credibility, why should we? It just taints any additional posts you make and lets us know in what light to view what you write.

Sometimes, "I screwed up, y'all are right and I shouldn't have written what I did." is just the right thing to say.

[indycool]

Well, to do ANYTHING with CC as far as bankruptcy goes will be confusing. First of all, we don't know who holds controlling interest in ANY of these LLCs, be it CC, Long Beach, Toronto, Pi or Cosworth. We don't know if, by the LLC agreement, KK must offer his shares to "X" or "Y" before he bails to the outside world and sells them for $1 to the last hobo out of the boxcar.

Then, whatever is done, how does this affect the REST of the LLCs involved? Or how does a CC bankruptcy affect the rest of the LLCs involved? And since all the LLCs seem to be controlled by KK and GF, who appear to disagree if not dislike each other, too, right now, how will it all sort out?

Whatever, it doesn't sound like anything to do with this is gonna be very easy to me. Time will tell.

[sanguin]

All we have been given by both sides is lip service. I think both sides are in big financial trouble. If they were smart they would both attempt to run their series this year and have a true merger for 2009. Most of you guys here are on the outside looking in and just feeding on all the B.S. I’m on the inside of the circle and my job depends on the outcome of this whole mess. Here is my $.02 Run both schedules as planned have four (4) All-Star races two on Champ Car’s turf and two on the IRL’s. There are enough spare cars and engines to invite say the top 5 in point standings from both sides to run along side with the regulars from each series. This way they wouldn’t burn any bridges with the race tracks they have already committed too. Then work on a chassis and engine package for the 2009 season. I think this would give the new series for 2009 much more creditably and would attract a lot more sponsors. As I said before this is just my $.02 and I hope to keep my job for 2008.

That's a good plan, unfortunately you have seen the hostility that is in this forum.

[OWFan19]

That's a good plan, unfortunately you have seen the hostility that is in this forum.


No hostility San, and yes, at a CC event, if there is a CC event, we will have a beer or two.

[pvtjoker]

That's a good plan, unfortunately you have seen the hostility that is in this forum.


Hostility? Please. Its only feels "hostile" to YOU because you've been proven wrong AGAIN and AGAIN. Face it, the series YOU support is in the toilet and its really hard for YOU to accept that KK isn't the savior you thought he is. If thats hostile, than you're probably right.

For better or worse, CC and IRL will be one series beit in '08 or '09. And to paraphrase you, "The racing is good. See you in Long Beach!"

[garyshell]

That's a good plan, unfortunately you have seen the hostility that is in this forum.


Once again, you don't understand the difference between hostility and realism.

Gary

[Chris R]

engineguy's plan might be a good compromise for 2008- not that I have any say in the matter...

hopefully somebody comes up with something viable really soon or, if some of the rumors about the health of the IRL are true (granted these are ccf rumors so...), we could have nothing much from either series.....

in the immortal words of larry the cable guy "git' 'er done"

[sanguin]

For better or worse, CC and IRL will be one series beit in '08 or '09. And to paraphrase you, "The racing is good. See you in Long Beach!"

The Motegi date didn't get changed, the IRL is contracted to go there as planned according to the schedule, that means no Long Beach.

The Motegi date didn't get changed, the IRL is contracted to go there as planned according to the schedule, that means no Long Beach.

For now. Maybe it will stay, maybe it will move. Without official confirmation, your statement is just conjecture.

Honestly, do you really expect the IRL & ChampCar owners to announce anything until the deal is done or has failed?

[Turn-In]

Only one series is under attack for not paying purse money (at least in a timely manner according to DW) and facing a lawsuit for not paying their bills. These facts are not disputed.


DW also reported that he had heard that from someone else.

I would just like the bull**** to end when it comes to the ****ty reporting of facts. I imagine there could be some truth to it, but honestly, there is almost nothing that seems factual or with ANY true backing CC or IRL side of things.

[Turn-In]

How many of those cars had been signed and announced? Seven or 8? How many of those signed cars belonged to NHL, Manardi and PKV, who have been rumored to be moving to the IRL?



Please give us your list of cars that YOU consider signed. I think you will find that number is 15, not 10.

How can we give your posts any credibility at all when you can't get the basic facts - facts that have been out there for the public for weeks - anywhere close to right?

Those teams you stated up top are rumored, just like you said. It would cost quite a bit of money to dump what the panoz and equipment they already own to go racing with the dallara. Not saying some of the teams will not do it, but until there is something definitive from either side, the teams are not going to reinvest a bunch of non-sponsored monies into a product that is struggling in the same manner. Just does not make sense.

And the IRL has 15 SIGNED drivers? Please do not back peddle and tell me this is incorrect, just let us know the full details.

[Turn-In]

“Indy Car World Series” Let Tony Cotman run it and schedule the races. TG and the 3 Amigos just sit back and smile for the television cameras. Okay I will stop dreaming now. :dozey:

EngineGuy, others inside the industry feel the same way. Mortgages, bills, mouths to feed. We all wait. We shall see. There are many other people feeling the same way and of course the bitter civil war on the outside occurs as work goes on inside the shops and vendors and sponsors shops...

[sanguin]

For now. Maybe it will stay, maybe it will move. Without official confirmation, your statement is just conjecture.

Honestly, do you really expect the IRL & ChampCar owners to announce anything until the deal is done or has failed?

The date was supposed to be changed before the merger talks would continue. Nothing was announced from the trip to Japan.

This is from AR1-

From AR1.com

Quote:
"Motegi/Long Beach conflict close to being resolved? UPDATE Regarding a date change to the Motegi Race, a Japanese Autosport Magazine website reported on February 12 (Japan time) that Motegi and IRL officials held a meeting, but the meeting ended without a date change to the Motegi race. According to the website the IRL will travel to Japan as scheduled, and will not be racing at Long Beach. Tony George and Robert Clarke came out of the meeting with Motegi officials saying they are very optimistic. Hmmm......could the merger deal be off?"

What harm would a date change do to the IRL? Especially after all the news reports that he was going to do it? It would show they are negotiating in good faith. I also heard the Japanese were insulted by the request. Looks like the IRL will be going to Motegi and won't be at LB.IMO.

[Turn-In]

What it really means is if this truly did happen, why didn't either side come jumping out to make a statement. Then again, we are waiting on GOOD statements from both sides for about a week now...

Are they reformulating the LB / Motegi conflict?

[OWFan19]

I also heard the Japanese were insulted by the request.

When I said I would get a beer with you, I didnt think you would start drinking this afternoon. Where would you get such a bogus idea that anyone from Japan was insulted?

[Chaparral66]

If anyone can produce a link to any Japanese media that gives any indication to Honda's reaction to TG's request, please do so.

[ChaimWitz]

After reading Sanguin's posts and observing the unAmigos in action, I have concluded that they are now something akin to the fable below. It is clear that KK and GF were ready to throw in the towel and end this insanity. It is also clear that there is no reasonable way forward for OWRS and ChampCar. Last but not least, it is obvious that the unAmigos' egos tend to trump good judgement every time The Split nears resolution.

From Wikipedia: "The Dog in the Manger is a fable attributed to Aesop, concerning a dog who one afternoon lay down to sleep in the manger. On being awoken, he ferociously kept the cattle in the farm from eating the hay on which he chose to sleep, even though he was unable to eat it himself, leading an ox to mutter the moral of the fable:

People often begrudge others what they cannot enjoy themselves.

The phrase is proverbial, referring to people who prevent others from having something that they themselves have no use for. A typical example is the child who discards a toy — until a sibling tries to play with it. Then the first child becomes possessive about something they no longer wanted.

A twist on the story was used by Charles Schulz in a Peanuts strip, in which Lucy acquires a baseball card of Charlie Brown's favorite player, and she refuses to give it to him. After he leaves disconsolately, she decides she doesn't really like the card that well, and throws it away.

In Spanish, the story is called El Perro del Hortelano, or The Vegetable Gardener's Dog.

The metaphor is also attributed to Jesus in The Gospel of Thomas by comparing the dog with the Pharisees."

[Turn-In]

If anyone can produce a link to any Japanese media that gives any indication to Honda's reaction to TG's request, please do so.



http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews2.as-web.jp%2Fcontents%2Fnews_category.php%3Fcno%3D21&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

That is the most recent and one of only 2 places that side of the pacific that covers the IRL

[tbyars]

The date was supposed to be changed before the merger talks would continue. Nothing was announced from the trip to Japan.....a Japanese Autosport Magazine website reported on February 12 (Japan time) that Motegi and IRL officials held a meeting, but the meeting ended without a date change to the Motegi race.

Sanguin, just so you know, your statements can support ANOTHER conclusion as well.

I have heard a RUMOR in the past few days (I imagine others have as well), that, as you stated, the 2008 Motegi race date was indeed NOT moved at that meeting. However, the Japanese agreed to NOT RUN Motegi in 2008 so the LBGP could be brought into the fold.

And, of course, I wouldn't expect to see that come off the IRL web site until everything had been arranged with LB.

Now, Sanguin, while just a rumor, that is a rumor that is indeed directly supported by your comments above.

The fact is, we simply don't know yet.

Personally, I wouldn't be very surprised to see something big happen a little later this afternoon (Friday). It's also been rumored the owners of CCWS have a meeting scheduled this afternoon to "consider their options," and it is a time-honored idea in the PR world to announce bad news late on a Friday afternoon, especially when you know the eyes of your world will be looking elsewhere over the weekend.

Not saying it will happen; just saying I wouldn't be surprised if it did.

[tbyars]

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnews2.as-web.jp%2Fcontents%2Fnews_category.php%3Fcno%3D21&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

That is the most recent and one of only 2 places that side of the pacific that covers the IRL

Unless I missed something, NOTHING in what I read said anything about the results of the meeting. It said the merger talks were having difficulty, something well reported over here when it was rumored that Forsythe had decided to keep CCWS going on his own.

[indycool]

You are all forgetting the quotes from Clarke about being "optimistic." Those were reported, in English, in the U.S.

[sanguin]

Sanguin, just so you know, your statements can support ANOTHER conclusion as well.

I have heard a RUMOR in the past few days (I imagine others have as well), that, as you stated, the 2008 Motegi race date was indeed NOT moved at that meeting. However, the Japanese agreed to NOT RUN Motegi in 2008 so the LBGP could be brought into the fold.



Doesn't look like it to me-

http://www.mobilityland.co.jp/indyjapan/

translation-

"2008 BRIDGESTONE INDY ™ JAPAN 300 mile advance tickets are on sale on February 16 (Saturday) from the start. IRL Indy Car Series to be held outside the United States only Indy Japan, April 19 (Sat) will be final. Andretti Green Racing this season from the elite to serve the full Hideki Mutou fought race as a triumphant return home draw attention Indy Japan. Star drivers were heated battle to the final race war is less important, of course, is how many of the fun. For more information on this year's ticket plan立てようcheck your watch!"

[Turn-In]

Unless I missed something, NOTHING in what I read said anything about the results of the meeting. It said the merger talks were having difficulty, something well reported over here when it was rumored that Forsythe had decided to keep CCWS going on his own.


Yeah, someone asked if there was any japanese press...well this is the only japanese press covering the situation, so if you are to find something from japan, it would be here

[cartpix]

Doesn't look like it to me-

http://www.mobilityland.co.jp/indyjapan/

translation-

"2008 BRIDGESTONE INDY ™ JAPAN 300 mile advance tickets are on sale on February 16 (Saturday) from the start. IRL Indy Car Series to be held outside the United States only Indy Japan, April 19 (Sat) will be final. Andretti Green Racing this season from the elite to serve the full Hideki Mutou fought race as a triumphant return home draw attention Indy Japan. Star drivers were heated battle to the final race war is less important, of course, is how many of the fun. For more information on this year's ticket plan立てようcheck your watch!"

Sanguin, do you think they would change the date, on the website, before the IRL makes an official statement?

Jeff

[sanguin]

According to that website and the information, it is now saturday morning in Japan and they have started to sell tickets for that date.

[sanguin]

here you go-

http://www.mobilityland.co.jp/english/events/indyjapan/ticket.html

[heelntoe]

According to that website and the information, it is now saturday morning in Japan and they have started to sell tickets for that date.

Means zippity-do-dah! TG doesn't cancel races without a real reason based on real deals...that skill is dominated by CCWS. If a deal is reached, refunding ticket sales isn't even a pimple on the butt of the Jolly Green Giant. Nothing will happen, IMO, until a few days after the Daytona 500 when CCWS has decided their course and TG can officially respond. As usual Sanguin, you are unable to deal with the unraveling of CCWS without trying to put the focus on the IRL. Those are running out fast and hopefully, we'll see the smart folks teaming up to rebuild open wheel in thhe US.

[CCWS77]

The double standards and hypocrasy on this forum are totally astounding. I see posters bashing Sanguin again and again for posting rumors but they have no problems posting rumors themselves. The only difference is which side the rumors favor.

Just about the only firm thing we knew in all of this was KK said that must be moved or negotiations are stalled. Then we have a link to a Japanese press release confirming the Montegi date and we say that means nothing? Hello that press release, in Japanese, was released the day after TG met with Honda in Japan and says the race will go on April 19, 2008. Your head has to be up TG's butt to say that means nothing.

[tbyars]

The double standards and hypocrasy on this forum are totally astounding. I see posters bashing Sanguin again and again for posting rumors but they have no problems posting rumors themselves. The only difference is which side the rumors favor.

Just about the only firm thing we knew in all of this was KK said that must be moved or negotiations are stalled. Then we have a link to a Japanese press release confirming the Montegi date and we say that means nothing? Hello that press release, in Japanese, was released the day after TG met with Honda in Japan and says the race will go on April 19, 2008. Your head has to be up TG's butt to say that means nothing.

Tell us something. How long were tickets sold for Phoenix before the race was cancelled?

How many CCWS fans told us that, because tickets were on sale, it PROVED the race was going to be run.

How wrong were they then?

[clydekart]

The double standards and hypocrasy on this forum are totally astounding. I see posters bashing Sanguin again and again for posting rumors but they have no problems posting rumors themselves. The only difference is which side the rumors favor.

Just about the only firm thing we knew in all of this was KK said that must be moved or negotiations are stalled. Then we have a link to a Japanese press release confirming the Montegi date and we say that means nothing? Hello that press release, in Japanese, was released the day after TG met with Honda in Japan and says the race will go on April 19, 2008. Your head has to be up TG's butt to say that means nothing.

You are absolutely correct-for example, the headline CC going bankrupt was not backed-up with any concrete source but when I posted CC NOT going bankrupt a quote from KK-I was attacked.

Also from the Japanese web-site it looks like Montegi is a go for the scheduled date. I wonder how far in advance all the huge airplanes must be scheduled to carry all the equipment over seas?

[clydekart]

Tell us something. How long were tickets sold for Phoenix before the race was cancelled?

How many CCWS fans told us that, because tickets were on sale, it PROVED the race was going to be run.

How wrong were they then?

Phoenix and Japan are two totally different stories-one is Honda's oval showcase in Japan with huge travel costs incurred by teams, whereas Phoenix was not really as important.

[ChaimWitz]

There is a difference between knowing and guessing just like there is a difference between truth and fiction. The next week will tell the tale of who was guessing and spewing fiction and who was not. From where I sit, the odds don't favor those who are a hoping to keep the flame alive for ChampCar's salvation through continuing the delusional spin and deception. This is almost over and just about everyone knows it. Let's all come back here next Friday and compare notes, eh Sanguin and Clydekart?

[clydekart]

There is a difference between knowing and guessing just like there is a difference between truth and fiction. The next week will tell the tale of who was guessing and spewing fiction and who was not. From where I sit, the odds don't favor those who are a hoping to keep the flame alive for ChampCar's salvation through continuing the delusional spin and deception. This is almost over and just about everyone knows it. Let's all come back here next Friday and compare notes, eh Sanguin and Clydekart?

Next Friday it will be a week before March. If nothing changed this week, I find it very unlikely that anything will change for 2008.

[ChaimWitz]

Next Friday it will be a week before March. If nothing changed this week, I find it very unlikely that anything will change for 2008.

I also find it highly unlikely that hubris, deception and bluster will create a 2008 ChampCar season in lieu of cash. Lots of cash.

[garyshell]

KK confirmed CC is not going bankrupt and was juat a BS rumour made up by some IRL lacky.


You are absolutely correct-for example, the headline CC going bankrupt was not backed-up with any concrete source but when I posted CC NOT going bankrupt a quote from KK-I was attacked.

Ah, everyone is picking on poor little you. Since your memory is obviously so short, I went back to find the quote that was the reason why you were "attacked". You were called out not because you posted the quote, you were called out because you attributed words to KK that he never said. Then you backed away from it by a clever placement of a punctuation mark and then had the audacity to say you weren't backing away from the comment at all. You do remember all that don't you??? I can find the other quotes if you'd like.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

Tell us something. How long were tickets sold for Phoenix before the race was cancelled?

How many CCWS fans told us that, because tickets were on sale, it PROVED the race was going to be run.

How wrong were they then?

Give the devil his due, Tbyars, that was a CCWS deal and not an IRL deal. You have to concede that the IRL has never really put the CART :) before the horse, so to speak.

[CCWS77]

the odds don't favor those who are a hoping to keep the flame alive for ChampCar's salvation through continuing the delusional spin and deception.

How many CCWS fans told us that, because tickets were on sale, it PROVED the race was going to be run.

How wrong were they then?
What a Phoenix promoter did for financial reasons has some relevance to what Honda will do in terms of PR? You think Honda wants to be compared to that failed buisness entity that sponsored that race??? It is your side of the argument here engaged in distraction and spin. Is there some reason the conversation needs to be turned away from the facts at hand to make your side of the argument sound good?


TG flew to Japan in a frenzy to get the date changed (and more?). According to Miller and lots of other people Honda would bow to TG and open wheel would be quickly united. Instead the next day there is a Japanese press release saying the original date is on. I dont speak Japanese but it seems pretty clear. Then Miller and others change the story to say CCWS will declare bankruptcy within 48 hours. That didnt happen.

Do you see something different? There is no delusion or even opinion there, that is the facts as best I can see them. Miller has been wrong in one story after another. TG is flying around and apparently not accomplishing much. KK said if the date isnt moved discussion is stalled then he said Bankrupty is BS. So who is proved right so far? Miller was wrong, TG accomplished nothing but annoying Honda, and what KK said appears true. What FACTS have I got wrong? Please point it out. I cant see the future but that is what we have so far.

So is it that we are supposed to believe Honda loves TG and gave him what he wants but after flying out to Japan like his pants were on fire suddenly he has better things to do then finish negotiations with KK? Honda topped it off by forgeting to cancel thier press release the next day saying IRL is coming to Japan as scheduled and is now selling tickets. Ya that makes sense now who is stretching facts into strange delusions here?

[Ironman]

CC may not be going BK but they have had problems paying their purses on time according to DW and are facing a lawsuit by the guy that fixed their fuel issues and represented by Jim Voiles. Add to this the snipet about the new PR person told to go home, the Cottman and Ziggy exits, the downgraded television package, the dwindeling ownership, the GF threat to run one car last year and contract issues with PT on top of the announced end to team handouts from KK as well as the race cancellations and you have to wonder.... Perhaps RM did draw some conclusions here in connecting these items. All these issues, however, show a trend towards a cash flow problem. It could just be a dissagreement between the amigos on how to fund the series, but it's definetly a problem.

[Chaparral66]

The Amigos are probably tired of spending their own money but since they always procrastinate about schedules, TV deals, and promotion until the last minute, they shoot themselves in the financial foot, and then b**ch about lack of revenue. Isn't that right, GF?

[indycool]

Well, CCWS77, you might be right about your assumptions but a few things about your so-called "facts:"

--There is no evidence that Honda was "annoyed." In fact, Clarke said he was "optimistic" when he returned.
--One would think there would be media stories in Japan about the Motegi date rather than just a press release none of us can read if that's what happened.
--You say KK said discussions are "stalled" if Motegi couldn't move, then you say TG found better things to do than finish negotiations with KK. Which is it?

IMO, it may well be down to the attorneys for both working something out on paper and that may take some extra time. KK was reported home in California where he was reached by the Toronto Star. TG went to England for Scott Dixon's wedding. Neither means the fat lady has sung.

[clydekart]

Ah, everyone is picking on poor little you. Since your memory is obviously so short, I went back to find the quote that was the reason why you were "attacked". You were called out not because you posted the quote, you were called out because you attributed words to KK that he never said. Then you backed away from it by a clever placement of a punctuation mark and then had the audacity to say you weren't backing away from the comment at all. You do remember all that don't you??? I can find the other quotes if you'd like.

Gary

Yes, we have been over that-but where were you when this was posted with ABSOLUTELY NO SOURCE, BACKUP, or QUOTE:
"Champcar Rumored To File For Bankruptcy Protection In Next 48 Hours"--Were you outraged that such a serious accusation was stated without credibility, or were you kind of happy. Just shows where you are comming from. By the way KK did say he knew nothing of CC bankruptcy-FACT no debate, no spinning for irl.

[indycool]

"Rumored" -- that's accurate. It's rumored.
"KK said it" -- that's accurate. KK said it.

[sanguin]

Phoenix and Japan are two totally different stories-one is Honda's oval showcase in Japan with huge travel costs incurred by teams, whereas Phoenix was not really as important.

correct, Honda and the Japanese would never cancel this race. They would lose face if they did. IMO.

[ChaimWitz]

correct, Honda and the Japanese would never cancel this race. They would lose face if they did. IMO.

Sanguin-san. I do wonder where you have gained all your semi-lucid insights into the worlds of racing and Japanese culture.

I disagree and think that Honda will do what it takes (whatever that may be) to see the sport whole again. Unlike some here, the people at Honda think long term and keep the best interests of the sport in heart and mind.

[sanguin]

Sanguin-san. I do wonder where you have gained all your semi-lucid insights into the worlds of racing and Japanese culture.

I disagree and think that Honda will do what it takes (whatever that may be) to see the sport whole again. Unlike some here, the people at Honda think long term and keep the best interests of the sport in heart and mind.

You really believe they are selling tickets and going to call it off? You really think Honda is that beholding to the IRL?

I disagree, they are in Mutohmania mode with daily updates.This is what else I think, they are preparing to leave the IRL and concentrate on F1.

[indycool]

The teams' travel costs are paid for by the promoter. May be the cheapest race they go to.

And sanguin, where has anyone said they were going to call it off at Motegi?

[gofastandwynn]

You really believe they are selling tickets and going to call it off? You really think Honda is that beholding to the IRL?

I disagree, they are in Mutohmania mode with daily updates.This is what else I think, they are preparing to leave the IRL and concentrate on F1.

You are right, they weren't selling tickets to the Phoenix Grand Prix last year were they?

And as many on this board will point out, your "thinking" is seldom in line with reality...

I disagree, they are in Mutohmania mode with daily updates.This is what else I think, they are preparing to leave the IRL and concentrate on F1.

Hold on....you claim that they, Honda, are benefiting from supposed Mutohmania, and at the same time want to get out of the IRL?

Yes, because it's always a good idea to find a marketing gem that produces 'daily updates' and then throw it out.

Honestly, you really need to think before you type.

[tbyars]

correct, Honda and the Japanese would never cancel this race. They would lose face if they did. IMO.

Why not, since you preach ALL THE TIME that Honda is on the way out.

Get your stories straight.

Yes, we have been over that-but where were you when this was posted with ABSOLUTELY NO SOURCE, BACKUP, or QUOTE:
"Champcar Rumored To File For Bankruptcy Protection In Next 48 Hours"--Were you outraged that such a serious accusation was stated without credibility, or were you kind of happy. Just shows where you are comming from. By the way KK did say he knew nothing of CC bankruptcy-FACT no debate, no spinning for irl.

Seriously, you should be ashamed of the pathetic standard of that post.

Apparently you cannot understand what the word 'rumoured' means.

'Rumoured' means it is not a statement of fact.

[heelntoe]

Yes, we have been over that-but where were you when this was posted with ABSOLUTELY NO SOURCE, BACKUP, or QUOTE:
"Champcar Rumored To File For Bankruptcy Protection In Next 48 Hours"--Were you outraged that such a serious accusation was stated without credibility, or were you kind of happy. Just shows where you are comming from. By the way KK did say he knew nothing of CC bankruptcy-FACT no debate, no spinning for irl.

You don't read very well, do you? The "rumor" of the BK was everywhere the day I posted the thread and you and everyone should understand why it spread given the fact that the Amigos have been unable to understand the importance of making a public statement when a sea of bad news makes a rumor like this have legs. And, as someone who has worked with and knows KK very well, a comment like the one from KK above is as suspect of being true as any rumor on the net.

[Cart750hp]

Funny how the fanatics ignore the rumors stuff yet believe KK's quote. For CC, the rumors are more likely to happen than what KK is saying.

[CCWS77]

--There is no evidence that Honda was "annoyed." In fact, Clarke said he was "optimistic" when he returned.
Ok "annoyed" was my choice of word. But you are not addressing the relevant facts at hand. What the heck do you call it when the IRL delegation says they are "optomistic" Honda will do what TG wants at the same time as there is Japanese press release saying IRL will complete its contract at Motegi? Without even knowing what was said in the meeting, "Annoyed" is a diplomatic term for that sequence of events.



--One would think there would be media stories in Japan about the Motegi date rather than just a press release none of us can read if that's what happened.
Without reading Japanese the page is dated the 12th and says Indy will be there April 19 2008. If you think this is fake or not reliable - well I dont read Japanese but I think you are grasping at straws.



--You say KK said discussions are "stalled" if Motegi couldn't move, then you say TG found better things to do than finish negotiations with KK. Which is it?

Why wordgames and distortion? KK said discusions are stalled until TG moves Motegi. TG flys away to do this but then does not come back to see KK. What other conclusion is there then that TG did not get what he needs from Honda to continue the discussion with KK. THere could be some other reason but we are on a clock here the begining of the season approaches - Occam's razor applies.



IMO, it may well be down to the attorneys for both working something out on paper
If you think these men are going to sit back and let lawyers handle negotiations I think you havent been paying attention.



I disagree and think that Honda will do what it takes (whatever that may be) to see the sport whole again. Unlike some here, the people at Honda think long term and keep the best interests of the sport in heart and mind.

Really? Who is being dellusional again? Honda's interest is to have good PR, gain respect for the Honda name and sell millions of cars. Are they getting that from American Open wheel racing?



Hold on....you claim that they, Honda, are benefiting from supposed Mutohmania, and at the same time want to get out of the IRL?

Yes, because it's always a good idea to find a marketing gem that produces 'daily updates' and then throw it out.

Honestly, you really need to think before you type.
Where is the logic? It is your side arguing ticket sales mean nothing and Honda could cancel the race. Leaving the IRL after contract is complete = respectable. Cancelling the event in the middle of advertising it and selling tickets = not respectable. This does not mean I am having delusions and claiming to see the future and know what Honda will do.



Funny how the fanatics ignore the rumors stuff yet believe KK's quote. For CC, the rumors are more likely to happen than what KK is saying.
What is there to believe? It is 3 days later and the rumor proved false. To deny current reality and assume it will still happen - who is the one doing the wishing and believeing?


All these issues, however, show a trend towards a cash flow problem. It could just be a dissagreement between the amigos on how to fund the series, but it's definetly a problem.
Maybe that is true. It in no way proves these current rumors.

[indycool]

--"Annoyed" is just your negative term pulled out of the sky.
--When Motegi runs may not be the only option. It's possible it was the most feasible on this side of the pond. Again, Clarke termed the talks "optimistic." As far as melding the series goes, we don't know what we don't know.
--Do we know if TG was supposed to fly back from Japan and see KK or not? Where do you get the idea that was suppossed to happen, and for what purpose in all these goings-on?
--TG and KK, GF, DP and PG aren't just putting this down on a bar napkin with a Bic.

[Cart750hp]

What is there to believe? It is 3 days later and the rumor proved false. To deny current reality and assume it will still happen - who is the one doing the wishing and believeing?

So you just made my point. You believe what KK said more than the rumors. I tend to disagree. Need proof? We'll see how 2008 goes.

[indycool]

It's called "positioning" to deny it. Whatever the case, it behooves KK to deny it right now, or they'll have an onslaught of lawsuits BEFORE they COULD go bankrupt if that is even contemplated. They already have a couple, from the Zhuhai promoter and the company that fixed the fuel cells last year. The rumor of bankruptcy also does NOT position CC well in its talks with the IRL about melding the series. It does not position CC well it conducting daily business. So, true or false, of course he's going to deny it.

[beachbum]

The whole problem with the current situation is that no one appears to know anything definite. That includes the fans on various forums, the media, and apparently all of the teams in both series. The result is rampant speculation, and some very ridiculous claims and counter claims.

While I am not a fan of TG, he did place the ball back in CCWS's court. While it was never stated, it would be a surprise if he didn't give them some deadline. Regardless, it is extremely unprofessional of CCWS to appear to just ignore all of the rumors.

Either they are going to race in 2008 or they are not.

Either they are seriously considering doing something else or they are not.

They owe their own teams and employees the courtesy of some real statement. Instead, they seem to be either bickering beyond belief, totally clueless, or totally uninterested in the consequences. Such complete silence is extremely unprofessional is any business environment. The amigos have become a huge embarrassment to motorsports. Somebody make a decision.

The pablum from Steve Johnson reminds me of the same statements he made about Trans-Am right right before the doors were closed. "....to continuing owning the series and are already meeting with potential sponsors." "Our organization and series is on solid ground with a focused business plan, focused ownership group, and a focused executive team leading the charge."

Both quotes from 2005-09-20 on Motorsport.com. Less than 3 months later, Trans-Am was gone. 2 1/2 years later, we have a total media and organizational mess. Some focused team. Sure, I believe him.

[CCWS77]

--"Annoyed" is just your negative term pulled out of the sky.

Again you are deflecting the actual conversation. I already admitted "annoyed" was my own term, so what? The real question is how to classify the meeting in which what TG wants was explicitly denied the next day in a press release.
There are 3 possibilities unless you have another that makes sense? None of them suggest a merger is about to happen.
1)TG "annoyed" Honda and they would not agree to change the date
2)Honda agreed to change the date but goes on to create bad press for themselves by selling tickets and not announcing it until later
3)the meeting was not actually about just changing the date


--Do we know if TG was supposed to fly back from Japan and see KK or not? Where do you get the idea that was suppossed to happen, and for what purpose in all these goings-on?Step 1 KK says the Japan date must be moved for discussions to continue
step 2 TG flys to Japan
step 3 TG does not resume negotiations with KK
what part of that makes it look like a merger is about to happen?




So you just made my point. You believe what KK said more than the rumors. I tend to disagree. Need proof? We'll see how 2008 goes.
What a rediculous assertion. There is no reason to either believe or not believe after the fact. The buisness week has concluded and the rumor is false. Who was correct? KK

Is there bankruptcy in future? I dont know. speculate if you want but you are pulling the rumur out of your ***** since it was specifically supposed to have happend this week.

[Cart750hp]

What a rediculous assertion. There is no reason to either believe or not believe after the fact. The buisness week has concluded and the rumor is false. Who was correct? KK

Again, my ridiculous assertion pointed out that you are so easily bought into KK's word than rumors.

[clydekart]

Funny how the fanatics ignore the rumors stuff yet believe KK's quote. For CC, the rumors are more likely to happen than what KK is saying.

Again, fanatic is the proper (long) form of fan, thus I assume you include yourself in your statement above.

Also, anyone can say they heard a rumour--I could say I heard a rumour that the Indy500 is going to run NASCAR's instead of open-wheeler's but that doesn't mean it's true, whereas an article with a direct quote attributed to a CC owner holds much more weight as the interviewer (newsperson) who obtained the quote has his or her credibility on the line.

[tbyars]

Again, fanatic is the proper (long) form of fan, thus I assume you include yourself in your statement above.

Also, anyone can say they heard a rumour--I could say I heard a rumour that the Indy500 is going to run NASCAR's instead of open-wheeler's but that doesn't mean it's true, whereas an article with a direct quote attributed to a CC owner holds much more weight as the interviewer (newsperson) who obtained the quote has his or her credibility on the line.

This, once again, from the guy who, in the very first post in this thread, tried to pass his own agenda off as being KK's words.

Like I said earlier...credibility.....

[indycool]

CCWS77, if you think for a crystalline moment that this is strictly a discussion between KK and TG, you're delusional. There's no doubt the other CC owners are involved. There is no doubt that lawyers for both sides are involved. It's quite possible that those negotiations are going on this weekend, or maybe being put on paper if they've struck a bargain.

We don't know what Motegi did or didn't agree to. If I'm Motegi, I might agree to something "if come" and look like a hero but proceed as usual until the "if come" is etched in stone. If it changes, it changes and deal with that THEN. As of now, there's no change and they're selling tickets. There is probably a drop-dead date involved on all sides of this. When TG and Clarke flew to Japan, there was absolutely no deal with CC and to our knowledge, there isn't now. So, TG's questions would be "would you if we." Clarke called the discussions "optimistic." That news release is natural. So is TG's comment when he returned saying it won't be immediate, if at all. It hasn't been immediate. But time for '08 is getting short.

What is KK going to say? If he says, "no comment," he lends veracity to it. If he says, "yes, we're going bankrupt," that's stupid and puts him in a very vulnerable position. So he said "no."

[garyshell]

Yes, we have been over that-but where were you when this was posted with ABSOLUTELY NO SOURCE, BACKUP, or QUOTE:
"Champcar Rumored To File For Bankruptcy Protection In Next 48 Hours"--Were you outraged that such a serious accusation was stated without credibility, or were you kind of happy. Just shows where you are comming from. By the way KK did say he knew nothing of CC bankruptcy-FACT no debate, no spinning for irl.


"Rumored" -- that's accurate. It's rumored.
"KK said it" -- that's accurate. KK said it.

Clydekart, IC hit the nail on the head. One was a rumor the other was at worst a lie and at best a gross miss representation of the facts. You have absolutely NO idea why I am comming from. So don't even pretend to know, lest you slip into another gross miss representation of the facts.

Gary

[garyshell]

whereas an article with a direct quote attributed to a CC owner holds much more weight as the interviewer (newsperson) who obtained the quote has his or her credibility on the line.

Only when said article is not embellished with additional statements attributed to one of the folks quoted in said article. Clear enough for you yet?

Gary

[garyshell]

So with a single bit of punctuation you want to now retract what you said? There was no ambiguity in what you originally wrote. The intent was clear. And your intent now is equally clear, you want to back away from the statement and take personal ownership for the second phrase in the statement, now that the FACTS have been revealed about what KK said.

Gary


I'm not retracting anything, anyone can read the article with KK's statements. Or even better, give KK a call and ask him what he thinks of TG (off the record of course).


To give clydekart his due, his posts since then are much more based in (the apparent) reality. We all make foolish posts at one time or another and, hopefully, learn from them when we're called on it.



Maybe so Starter, but in this case clyedkart attempted to sidestep the original comment thorough a change in punctuation. Fair enough, that would have indicated it was indeed no more than a foolish comment. But then when asked if that was what he was doing by the correction he categorically stated he was NOT backing away from the comments he attributed to KK. Clydekart can't have it both ways.

Gary

[PSfan]

Maybe so Starter, but in this case clyedkart attempted to sidestep the original comment thorough a change in punctuation. Fair enough, that would have indicated it was indeed no more than a foolish comment. But then when asked if that was what he was doing by the correction he categorically stated he was NOT backing away from the comments he attributed to KK. Clydekart can't have it both ways.

Gary


Oh My God, did you actually believe KK claimed the rumor was started by an IRL lacky? The way you go on and on and on and on... I swear it looks like 80% of this thread is just beating the dead horse. Did it really hurt your feelings that much?!?!?!

Gary, why dont you join the circle of kick em while there down friends, and repeat the same "we can't trust KK" and actually comment on the article then continueing to shoot the messanger... (I'll leave a few obvious spelling errors in here so you have something to "dis-credit me with" Because i still think you can't grasp the consept that the topik of this thread is "CC NOT going Bankrupt" and not "Clydekart is an overly biased champ car supporter"

[tbyars]

To give clydekart his due, his posts since then are much more based in (the apparent) reality. We all make foolish posts at one time or another and, hopefully, learn from them when we're called on it.

The truth is we all know very little right now. It could range from no merger no way no how to it's a done deal to be announced on Monday. And anything in between.

Starter, the problem is that clydeart can't have it both ways. I'm more than willing to let his original comment go, but, in return, he can't go around criticizing others for EXACTLY what he did in the first post of this thread and not expect to be called on it, especially in the very same thread!

There comes a time, especially after clydeart went out of his way to defend his actions and categorically state he wasn't backing off what he said, where he may WANT to say something, but simply can't with any credibility because of the conflicting nature of his original comment.

[indycool]

Starter, while giving him his due, I agree with Gary and tbyars.....if we're going to have a realistic discussion, it needs to start that way and stay that way.

[indycool]

Deal.

[garyshell]

Oh My God, did you actually believe KK claimed the rumor was started by an IRL lacky? The way you go on and on and on and on... I swear it looks like 80% of this thread is just beating the dead horse. Did it really hurt your feelings that much?!?!?!

Gary, why dont you join the circle of kick em while there down friends, and repeat the same "we can't trust KK" and actually comment on the article then continueing to shoot the messanger... (I'll leave a few obvious spelling errors in here so you have something to "dis-credit me with" Because i still think you can't grasp the consept that the topik of this thread is "CC NOT going Bankrupt" and not "Clydekart is an overly biased champ car supporter"


Don't pretend to know what I believed and don't attempt to lump me into the "kick em while their down" folks. If you would bother to read my messages here rather than jumping to conclusions, you'd find I am one of the folks here who is firmly planted in the middle of this conversation. I have been calling out folks on both sides of this argument, those overly critical of the owners and those who ignore and apologize their every move.

Now, in the spirit of Starter's message above, I am moving on. Can you say the same?

Gary

[PSfan]

Don't pretend to know what I believed

And now it becomes obvious, had clydekart used proper punctuation, you probably would have choose to ignore it anyways:

"Oh My God, did you actually believe KK claimed the rumor was started by an IRL lacky?"
"Did it really hurt your feelings that much?"

I'm not pretending to know anything... just asking confirmation...


and don't attempt to lump me into the "kick em while their down" folks. If you would bother to read my messages here rather than jumping to conclusions, you'd find I am one of the folks here who is firmly planted in the middle of this conversation. I have been calling out folks on both sides of this argument, those overly critical of the owners and those who ignore and apologize their every move.

"why dont you join the circle of kick em while there down friends, and repeat the same "we can't trust KK""

A simple suggestion... if your gonna post like them regarding "irl lacky" not coming from KK, you might as well also post about KK's trustworthyness because at least that would have been on topic

Now you could have turned around and called me a hypocrit for accusing you of not being able to post on topic when my post only contained the "we can't trust KK" reference which isn't even an opinion I share. Instead... you choose to continue to avoid the topic...


Now, in the spirit of Starter's message above, I am moving on. Can you say the same?

Gary

Isn't that fresh... after you choose to ignore Starters message about it's "not about our fellow members of this board" And made this post about how I don't know you. you'll end it with the "I'm the better man and moving on" ending... Well, nothing to add to the thread... might be for the best...

However, in the "spirit" of Starters post I will actually post my opinions on this whole "CC not going bankrupt"

I'm of the belief (and if anyone read Miller's article regarding the rumor) that CCWS would be filing for bankruptcy as a result of a merger, not because of finacial difficulties.

I believe that as bad as the new tv schedule is, its a tell in this situation. If CCWS is buying time, then I would expect ABC would require some form of deposit to hold onto these time slots, and I expect this wouldn't be cheap either. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if the series was in as dire a finacial situation as we are to believe, they should have known well before the end of last season... We should have never seen the tv schedule...

[indycool]

The question that KK was asked put him in the same position as if he were asked, "When did you stop screwing my wife?"

If KK says, "Yes, we're going bankrupt," that is a stupid way of announcing something and puts him and CC in a bad position.

If KK says, "no comment," it essentially says the same thing.

If KK says "no, CC is not going bankrupt," maybe he's telling the truth and maybe he's not, but he's not putting himself in the deep hole that either other comment would.