Thread: R-Classes News

Originally Posted by navtheace

After GpB was cancelled after 1986. It was amazing how quickly manufacturers adjusted to GpA rules.

Very good point!

Maybe R4 is a mix of S2000, Gr N, WRC ?

Originally Posted by HaCo

Very good point!

Maybe R4 is a mix of S2000, Gr N, WRC ?

Only s2000 and N4 looks more real.

Originally Posted by navtheace

After GpB was cancelled after 1986. It was amazing how quickly manufacturers adjusted to GpA rules.

I'm amazed with all this fuss around a possible R4 class and its purpose to replace WRC1.6T...

Let's be clear: in order to homologate a R4 car a manufactureur must produce 2.500 street cars, and has we've seen in N4, no other manu besides Mitusbishi and Subaru wants to exercice that kind of obligation.

After Ralliart closedown most probably only Subaru would cope with it!
(That wont be an isolated case as R1 also has a unique model range: the Renault Twingo!).

So, R4 just make sence to boost N4 cars, giving them more competitive parts (like sequencial gearboxes) not allowed under Gr. N rules.

In no way R4 can be seen as a WRC1.6T alternative.

And there's no need to wait till september to know that S2000 new homologations will be banned from 2011: that's already decidided.

It was also told that WRC1.6T cars will be allowed in every FIA championships (WRC, IRC, and Regional Series) and in national champs where allowed by local NSAs.

Only issue to be clarified is the possibility of pre-2011 homologated S2000 cars to receive a re-homologation with a 1.6T engine, in order to be competitive after 2010, even if not allowed at WRC rallys (an unexpected rule maybe linked with a hipotetic boycott from IRC towards WRC1.6T cars?).

Originally Posted by Rally Power

I'm amazed with all this fuss around a possible R4 class and its purpose to replace WRC1.6T...

Let's be clear: in order to homologate a R4 car a manufactureur must produce 2.500 street cars, and has we've seen in N4, no other manu besides Mitusbishi and Subaru wants to exercice that kind of obligation.

After Ralliart closedown most probably only Subaru would cope with it!
(That wont be an isolated case as R1 also has a unique model range: the Renault Twingo!).

So, R4 just make sence to boost N4 cars, giving them more competitive parts (like sequencial gearboxes) not allowed under Gr. N rules.

In no way R4 can be seen as a WRC1.6T alternative.

And there's no need to wait till september to know that S2000 new homologations will be banned from 2011: that's already decidided.

It was also told that WRC1.6T cars will be allowed in every FIA championships (WRC, IRC, and Regional Series) and in national champs where allowed by local NSAs.

Only issue to be clarified is the possibility of pre-2011 homologated S2000 cars to receive a re-homologation with a 1.6T engine, in order to be competitive after 2010, even if not allowed at WRC rallys (an unexpected rule maybe linked with a hipotetic boycott from IRC towards WRC1.6T cars?).

IMO also R4 is just upgrades to N4 to get them more competitive against S2000 cars, not replacing 1.6T WRC cars.

Originally Posted by Rally Power

After Ralliart closedown most probably only Subaru would cope with it!

http://ralliart.com/10topics/100310.html

By this press release I understand that Mitsubishi will take over some of the activities of Ralliart and Mitsubishi will continue in group N.

Any updates on the R classes?

Or is the FIA meeting in September where all will be revealed about R4?

Originally Posted by OldF

IMO also R4 is just upgrades to N4 to get them more competitive against S2000 cars, not replacing 1.6T WRC cars.




http://ralliart.com/10topics/100310.html

By this press release I understand that Mitsubishi will take over some of the activities of Ralliart and Mitsubishi will continue in group N.

Both Subaru and Mitsubishi is talking to FIA about it, hope to hear more this weekend in WRC Germany

As a bit of a side discussion, how does the Evo 10 compare to the newest Impreza GpN for performance?

As the Evo 10 was a bit down on performance when it first came about with many sticking with the Evo 9.

Evo X has by far strongest engine of all Gr.N cars but is also too heavy. That is it's main problem. I think that it's almost 100 kg heavier than Impreza or Evo IX.

Armindo Araújo said that is car is now with less 100kg than before

Originally Posted by RICARDO75

Armindo Araújo said that is car is now with less 100kg than before

Is that from weight saving or Mitsubishi supplying an RS base car that has been lightened?

How did the Impreza's with 33mm restrictors perform on tarmac?

So, is there any news from Germany rally on the proposed R4 regs?

FIA is really keen on doing it and there is a extraordinary World Council Meeting on 8 September. They are going to try to squeeze it in but the fear is that 'normally' things like this goes via working groups.... but as I said to them if there is enough will to get it through it might happen, their (FIA) answer was that they are not sure about the 'other' manufactures (who have S2000 now) might not be so keen.... more in 2 weeks time just before WRC Japan

Originally Posted by Mirek Fric [Cze]

Evo X has by far strongest engine of all Gr.N cars but is also too heavy. That is it's main problem. I think that it's almost 100 kg heavier than Impreza or Evo IX.

In Greece first grN evo X we measured in same corner weight scales same time with same fuel and both in gravel spec was 65kg heavier.But this depends from a lot of other reasons ie which fuel tank,which make roll cage,which make tyres/rims,underbody guards for both cars? etc if you want to have a very accurate measure of weight between them.
In some months we are going to have ours evo X ready for first hand informations.
First impressions from engine without the finally program in ecu it is very good against ours evo 9 cars.Better torque by far,better horsepower and bigger powerband against evo 9 with same (33mm) restrictor.

Thanks, Dimviii

I had a chat with a friend from Kresta Racing. They're now building Evo X for Jiri Tosovsky. He told me that they are able to get close to Evo IX weight but the car is very expensive. They have lightweight 15CDV6 rollcage from Heggemann.

Talking about expensive cars, there was a story in a magazine where they followed the whole process building a N group car from a road car. The price of this car was 169740 € (excluding taxes).

did this price includes the work hours? and how much are they?

Originally Posted by dimviii

did this price includes the work hours? and how much are they?

You can check the prices straight from TMR homepage: http://www.tommimakinenracing.fi/

I remember that article also, the car must have had "all you want", because normal TMR top spec STi costs below 140 000.

Originally Posted by dimviii

did this price includes the work hours? and how much are they?

It was the final price of the car ready for delivery. For some phases the hours was there. I can look them up later, just watching a movie from telly.

These prices are very high for a grN
TMR is very expensive,even with ''catalogue prices''
Evos are much more cheaper,specially when you know where from to ''collect'' parts.
An other point is which parts you buy.Ie if you want to buy a suspension with tmr ''settings'' you are going to pay a lot.(useless imho as you always have to adjust different from rally to rally,even in different ss some times)
You can buy a rieger/ohlins with much less money if you(and your driver) can adjust the right settings.
From personally experience almost nobody pays catalogue prices when you buy a lot of $$.
An other point is that some parts doesn t make the car faster but better in some conditions(ie heated screen/high voltage alternator etc) Depends where you want to use your car.
Another point is the cost of work hours.Too much difference between countries/garages without the most expensive beeing and better.

Some examples...
ralliart (can t say from which country) wants 7000 euros for a groupN engine.Ours with fully rebuild/balanced/blue printed costed no more than 3000 euros with all parts new.
Another ralliart wants 2300 euros for an exaust.
You can buy a lighter one with wrc metal catalyzater with half money.
Brembo brakes are 9000 euros on catalogue while we bought them for less than 6000 euros brand new.
There are examples almost for every part i can see on catalogues i read about evos.
A more realistic cost with a brand new car must be about 110000 euros for an evo 9.

The excellent thing is that there is choice. People can build a GpN car for less than Euro 100K and then you can go right to the top end price as mentioned above. It's all choice on how much you want to yourself for parts sourcing, if you can get your own GpN mechanics to do some of the build, or if you want to just pay for a completed car and to what spec.

This is better than how it was with world rally cars in that people woud pay the over inflated price asked by M Sport and Prodrive with no real choice to do things to ones own spec.

If R4 goes ahead, more motorsport companies will get involved and bring about lots of choice and competition on pricing and specs etcetc. All good for the paying customer.

Coming to R3 turbo rally cars - 1.6 turbo Front Wheel Drive. Is the rule 29mm restrictor?