Thread: [WRC] News & rumours (part II)

Originally Posted by A.F.F.

And claiming that back in the 80's every tourist could win a rally??? In the era of group-B cars ?? Cars that had to be driven in order to win, cars that modern drivers can't even drive. So tourists.... seriously?

compared to todays drivers the 80s drivers with some exceptions of course (kankkunen that is) were nothing.... but that is another story and not a rumor or something new to be discussed here...

Markku Alen was nothing? Ari Vatanen was nothing? Walter Röhrl was nothing? Hannu Mikkola was nothing? Henry Toivonen was nothing? Miki Biasion was nothing?


Interesting. I guess you never saw group-B cars driven on stages live, listened to the sound, witnessed how the drivers took 90 degree turns or hairpins or pushed them flat out over the crests? They had no torque what so ever compared to modern cars, the revs had to be high all the time... Surely it got be easy, hey, it's easy with Playstation.

Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Miki Biasion was nothing?

yes.

Originally Posted by N.O.T

compared to todays drivers the 80s drivers with some exceptions of course (kankkunen that is) were nothing.... but that is another story and not a rumor or something new to be discussed here...

I wish there was a Dislike button.

Originally Posted by N.O.T

yes.

Two time world champion?? Is nothing? Please, share your wisdom, how is that possible?

Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Two time world champion?? Is nothing? Please, share your wisdom, how is that possible?

Just one of those weird NOT delusions with no argumental value.

Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Markku Alen was nothing? Ari Vatanen was nothing? Walter Röhrl was nothing? Hannu Mikkola was nothing? Henry Toivonen was nothing? Miki Biasion was nothing?


Interesting. I guess you never saw group-B cars driven on stages live, listened to the sound, witnessed how the drivers took 90 degree turns or hairpins or pushed them flat out over the crests? They had no torque what so ever compared to modern cars, the revs had to be high all the time... Surely it got be easy, hey, it's easy with Playstation.

It is not easy even with Playstation (or PC). Those cars are unleashed monsters and everyone should have huge respect to the group B drivers being able to storm through the stages with them and give us such a thrill. Some of them even paid with their life, and saying they are tourists is like you don't know what is this about. May be Loeb is spoiling people...

I think N.O.T. only likes to tease everyone... Because N.O.T. is too young to even exist at that time. Of course the drivers back in the 80´s were fantastic drivers and in full comparable to todays WRC drivers (top 4-5).

Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Two time world champion?? Is nothing? Please, share your wisdom, how is that possible?

LAL... yes indeed...impossible.... i wonder what kankkunen has to say about it...

Originally Posted by stefanvv

It is not easy even with Playstation (or PC). Those cars are unleashed monsters and everyone should have huge respect to the group B drivers being able to storm through the stages with them and give us such a thrill. Some of them even paid with their life, and saying they are tourists is like you don't know what is this about. May be Loeb is spoiling people...

compared to todays they were inferior... far inferior... for the time they were gods for managing to handle the cars.

But please i really would like to see the results of a chain smoker, an overweight blob and a guy who was affraid of Finland in todays rallies and cars... back then they won championships if i am not mistaken.

For the time they were amazing... for todays standards they were nothing apart from the 2nd best driver of all times Kankkunen.

Originally Posted by N.O.T

compared to todays drivers the 80s drivers with some exceptions of course (kankkunen that is) were nothing.... but that is another story and not a rumor or something new to be discussed here...

Ridiculous statement!
You said ones, you did boxing.
Now, compare yourself to Mike Tyson.
Would knock 'm down/out - or he is just an oldschool guy of the past and is nothing compered to the present/todays you ... too.

[QUOTE=N.O.T;1051185]compared to todays they were inferior... far inferior... for the time they were gods for managing to handle the cars.

But please i really would like to see the results of a chain smoker, an overweight blob and a guy who was affraid of Finland in todays rallies and cars... back then they won championships if i am not mistaken.

This is only very very hypothetical because we will never be able to make a fair judgement of what you´re saying. It´s absolute those drivers would have been given Loeb, JML and Hirvo a big competiton, with or without cigarettes. BTW JK is/was a big smoker and even user of glass...

Originally Posted by danon

Ridiculous statement!
You said ones, you did boxing.
Now, compare yourself to Mike Tyson.
Would knock 'm down/out - or he is just an oldschool guy of the past and is nothing compered to the present/todays you ... too.

different weight class....

and we talk about a sport were it changed very little from the 80s till today... and were the standards were always almost the same.

Originally Posted by N.O.T

different weight class....

Different weight class - Same techniques.

Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Markku Alen was nothing? Ari Vatanen was nothing? Walter Röhrl was nothing? Hannu Mikkola was nothing? Henry Toivonen was nothing? Miki Biasion was nothing?


Interesting. I guess you never saw group-B cars driven on stages live, listened to the sound, witnessed how the drivers took 90 degree turns or hairpins or pushed them flat out over the crests? They had no torque what so ever compared to modern cars, the revs had to be high all the time... Surely it got be easy, hey, it's easy with Playstation.

I did watch them in person. (after I DNFed!) And I build engines, and I really can't imagine how you could say " no torque.whatsoever compared to modern (WRC) cars'

I'm 95% metric but in motor power I still speak ft/lbs. My memory is the earlier cars were in the region of "2 1/2 times the torque of the Cosworth BDG" like the great Escort in full Group 4 trim made. I've only built one BDG and memory says they made about 170-175 ft/lbs of torque.. memory also says the Pug and Lancia made about 390 ft/lbs. Ford and Audi higher with their 2.0 and 2.1 motors.

Thing is, with the huge restrictor they had the motors would rev, and since they would, there was no need to make it into a soley mid-range monster like the recent 2,0 World Rally Cars...When the motor will rev, you just turn that into more ft/lbs via the final drive ratio ie shorter gears.. I asked some of the Swedish mechanics on the GpB Celicas and the Audi guys what they were geard for and they said "Right about 185 km/hr"...and that was on 66cm tires. Short gearing.

If you recall back to 87-88 when the GpA cars were suddenly the top class, they also revved quite high, and at least with Ford they were using 4.88 or 4.67 final drive ratio, compare that with the 4.27 or 4.44 of the 34mm restrictor days.

I say they made buckets of torque, weighed hundreds of kg less than the current 1250kg, were gear much shorter, and flat went like stink....

Funny thing is the motors were only a bit larger on the 205s and Lancias~~~around 1725cc--than today's 1600.

Originally Posted by A.F.F.

@ N.O.T. You do remember that Peugeot won the championship in their first whole season, don't you? So why not VW ??

And claiming that back in the 80's every tourist could win a rally??? In the era of group-B cars ?? Cars that had to be driven in order to win, cars that modern drivers can't even drive. So tourists.... seriously?

Interestingly this is what FIA was trying to achieve in F1 for years. And they finally did that - by making the cars equally slow. But this is not the case with Group B specification (or more the lack of such).

Originally Posted by N.O.T

LAL... yes indeed...impossible.... i wonder what kankkunen has to say about it...

Well what would Kankkunen say about that?

With sincere respect, your hero Burns got his title with one win and the help of Märtin and Solberg. Yet he carries the title. The rules were different back then. Manufacturers didn't nominate all the drivers to all the rallyes. Biasion earned his titles by being fast and consistent enough and should be treated like a champion what he is.

The same old story again and again. People ( not only in this sport ) always tend to compare drivers of today, with those of the '70ties or 80ties. Well I have witnessed some fantastic drivers from 1977 until today.
Compare what ? the group B monsters that only 3-4 guys could really drive them flat-out, the 550-600 kms of special stages with UNLIMITED passes in the recce ( in some stages they did more than 20 with a rally car ), the tyre warmers even on gravel, the roadside service before and after each SS with :
2 passes in the recce, control tyres, 150-180 real kms of SS, service parks and only remote in between, fantastic suspensions, friendlier cars,
BUT surprise surprise the result remains the same : Still there are 3-4 drivers that can really extract the maximum of their car's capabilities, as it will always be.
It was as thrilling to watch Henri Toivonen with the 037, as it is in a different way to watch Loeb with the DS3. The only bad period were the first two years of gr.A especially after gr.B it was a shock.
By the way Lancia indeed gave one championship to Biasion instead of Kankkunen, but still he was one real rallyman and I will never forget the ride that he shared with me with the Escort Cosworth. It was almost as exciting as the one a few years before with the late Henri Toivonen and the 037

Originally Posted by A.F.F.

Well what would Kankkunen say about that?

With sincere respect, your hero Burns got his title with one win and the help of Märtin and Solberg. Yet he carries the title. The rules were different back then. Manufacturers didn't nominate all the drivers to all the rallyes. Biasion earned his titles by being fast and consistent enough and should be treated like a champion what he is.

Don´t agree. Burns didn´t get anything for free. Believe me. I too remember that year 2001 perfectly.
Instead RB had to struggle and the first half was not so good. After that he really took the points needed.
And for the final rally GB there were three men able to claim the championship. Mäkinen who went out hitting front left wheel on a stub, and Colin doing the spectacular five lap roll in high speed after he was stressed by RB on the stages before.

So RB is one amongst several that would have given Loeb some hard times.

But still it´s not worth much having a discussion of who´s the best ever. There were many. But, I think with a small margin Loeb is the best ever even if it´s kind of hard to admit.