[WRC] News & rumours (part II)

**N.O.T** · 4th Jul 12, 18:05

Originally Posted by RAS007

Really terrific video. I hope the WRC can return to something like that again.

what is different nowadays ??

**rallyfiend** · 4th Jul 12, 18:10

Originally Posted by RAS007

Really terrific video. I hope the WRC can return to something like that again.

I don't get it?

Some of that vision is from the last few years!

**makinen_fan** · 4th Jul 12, 18:16

Originally Posted by RAS007

Really terrific video. I hope the WRC can return to something like that again.

really? rallying is very much the same these days, not much different apart from less manuf (ok and uglier cars)

this is video with how I hope wrc can return to! but probably I am only dreaming right?

GROUP B in FINLAND 85-86 - YouTube

**cali** · 4th Jul 12, 18:21

Originally Posted by makinen_fan

really? rallying is very much the same these days, not much different apart from less manuf (ok and uglier cars)

this is video with how I hope wrc can return to! but probably I am only dreaming right?

GROUP B in FINLAND 85-86 - YouTube

Actually this is what I do not want to see in WRC. Group B cars were horrible to drive and apart from great sound, they just do not appeal to me. I prefer these tidy modern cars anyday, specially S2000 cars are most of the time a joy to watch. It's not just all about power ... so no thanks!

**darkstar** · 4th Jul 12, 18:24

i totally agree with cali!

**Mirek** · 4th Jul 12, 18:27

Those days can never return. Nowadays a common road car has better suspension and tyres than those overpowered gr.B cars had. As You said they had great sound and huge power but compared to modern cars they were so slow in corners and braking, it was impossible to take a handbrake turn on asphalt so they either could try hairpins very very slowly or they had to reverse.

**Josti** · 4th Jul 12, 18:54

Wow, an era isn't just defined by what cars are driving. The championship really ment something in those days, it was as high profile as F1, and every single event stood out from the other.

If you ask the drivers, those cars were actually incredible to drive, not horrible. Lancia 037, damnit that's so much better than a DS3 WRC.

**Juha_Koo** · 4th Jul 12, 19:05

Originally Posted by Josti

If you ask the drivers, those cars were actually incredible to drive, not horrible. Lancia 037, damnit that's so much better than a DS3 WRC.

I hope your kidding... High profile was mainly due to historical context, what wasn't "bigger" back then than nowdays? Boeing 707 was a mean machine, produced helluva lot of noice, smoke, etc. but modern-day Airbus' kicks it in every feature...

Gr.B was a phenomena, yes. There's absolutely no denying it. But wishing to get those times back always makes me put the person saying it to category "rally fan" instead of "rally enthusiastic".

One interesting fact: back in 1985 season the average winning margin was 5,1 minutes, even with Safari and Cote D'Ivoire results excluded. Now, if we look last season (2011), the average winning margin was 0,7 minutes! I wonder which is more interesting to follow - from the perspective of even results. With gr.B, there's a problem that memories have grown sweeter with time.

**stefanvv** · 4th Jul 12, 19:22

Yes, modern rally cars are much more technology advanced, faster in corners and SAFER, but none of them could beat that experience - 1985 1000 Lakes Rally Finland - Audi Quattro S1 Only - YouTube. This should stay in history anyway, too dangerous.

**RAS007** · 4th Jul 12, 20:36

Originally Posted by N.O.T

what is different nowadays ??

The majority of the footage in that video appeared to be from 2000-2005. During that period, there were more manufacturers, more drivers capable of winning and therefore more competition and more excitement, 2 things which are largely missing from the WRC, and have been for some time.

**Josti** · 4th Jul 12, 21:20

Originally Posted by Juha_Koo

I hope your kidding... High profile was mainly due to historical context, what wasn't "bigger" back then than nowdays? Boeing 707 was a mean machine, produced helluva lot of noice, smoke, etc. but modern-day Airbus' kicks it in every feature...

I mean in the way of public, media and manufacturer interest it was bigger, let alone most rallies were run nationwide.

Originally Posted by Juha_Koo

Gr.B was a phenomena, yes. There's absolutely no denying it. But wishing to get those times back always makes me put the person saying it to category "rally fan" instead of "rally enthusiastic".

One interesting fact: back in 1985 season the average winning margin was 5,1 minutes, even with Safari and Cote D'Ivoire results excluded. Now, if we look last season (2011), the average winning margin was 0,7 minutes! I wonder which is more interesting to follow - from the perspective of even results. With gr.B, there's a problem that memories have grown sweeter with time.

Of course we shouldn't go back to Group B, it is a phenomena your right, something unique that's irreplaceble and can't be replicated (it wouldn't even make sense). But it stands alone so strong because it was radically different than what was there before and again what was after. And those statistics don't say much, rallies were longer and cars weren't as reliable as now, it's not to be compared.

**stefanvv** · 4th Jul 12, 21:36

[QUOTE=Josti;1049053]I mean in the way of public, media...
And that probably caused most of the troubles. Some people had became really crasy not realising what danger put themselves rushing in front of those beasts. It is hard to control this situation.

**vkangas** · 4th Jul 12, 22:08

Let's start some rumours.... Tommi Mäkinen spotted at Finland's biggest BMW/Mini dealer...

**vkangas** · 4th Jul 12, 22:51

Originally Posted by tommeke_B

Next "rumor" will be Carlos Sainz at the supermarket? Not really going anywhere with these things, also a former WRC champion has a life and needs to buy a car at some point...

Shhh... this is my test for how long it will take that MTV3 has rumours about Tommi's contract with Mini...

**tfp** · 4th Jul 12, 23:38

Originally Posted by Juha_Koo

I hope your kidding... High profile was mainly due to historical context, what wasn't "bigger" back then than nowdays? Boeing 707 was a mean machine, produced helluva lot of noice, smoke, etc. but modern-day Airbus' kicks it in every feature...

Gr.B was a phenomena, yes. There's absolutely no denying it. But wishing to get those times back always makes me put the person saying it to category "rally fan" instead of "rally enthusiastic".

One interesting fact: back in 1985 season the average winning margin was 5,1 minutes, even with Safari and Cote D'Ivoire results excluded. Now, if we look last season (2011), the average winning margin was 0,7 minutes! I wonder which is more interesting to follow - from the perspective of even results. With gr.B, there's a problem that memories have grown sweeter with time.

I see where you're coming from, but I think the bigger winning time - margin was to do with the manufacturers constantly trying to out do each other, by making their cars even more crazy every year.

I think the cars from Grp B were way more spectacular and had a lot more road presence, seeing a big, wide arch Quattro thundering through the stages sideways with deafening dump valves, kicking gravel everywhere and spitting flames at you when they went past is a lot better than seeing go kart-ish fiestas and DS3's.
I mean if someone offered me the choice between a 'Grale and a new Fiesta, I know which one I'd choose

Good debate though

**Rallyper** · 4th Jul 12, 23:52

Originally Posted by rallyfiend

I don't get it?

Some of that vision is from the last few years!

Some yes, about 5% maybe.

I agree to those who want those years back. It was a big difference from today. Much of that because of there where more drivers competing of the podiums back then. And the drivers where personalitys. Just the guys you want to see and hear comments from at stageends.

With more manus and also three car teams allowed we should make it possible to have more drivers (not any paying ones) and hopefully they all can compete for podiums.

**Francis44** · 7th Jul 12, 01:49

Not sure if mentioned already, but some interesting news around the PSA group.

Apparently even the French state is considering to buy a part of the company. An article I read today states that they need to cut the budget as soon as possible.

In the last year PSA shares went down 72%.

This will probably have an effect on the rally programme. Many discussions about Citroen exit and Peugeot entry, however, after these reports, I think both may stay out of motorsport for a long time.

**bluuford** · 7th Jul 12, 07:44

Originally Posted by Francis44

Not sure if mentioned already, but some interesting news around the PSA group.

Apparently even the French state is considering to buy a part of the company. An article I read today states that they need to cut the budget as soon as possible.

In the last year PSA shares went down 72%.

This will probably have an effect on the rally programme. Many discussions about Citroen exit and Peugeot entry, however, after these reports, I think both may stay out of motorsport for a long time.

I dont think they are considering to leave the WRC. It is pretty good marketing for them, not too costly and very long line of customers with S2000 cars (whic is like free exposure, no customers pay to expose their cars all around Europe) and now with DS3 2WD cars + old WRCars + they have good sponsor support as well.

They shut down their Le Mans because it was pretty big waste of money for them. Strage looking cars, no customers, normal media exposure only for 24 hours per year and constantly ridiculed by Audi = not worth of their money.

One thing I remember from my Economy lecture that when your sales go down then do not cut your costs on your marketing costs just rethink your strategy (Better to cut the number of staff and their working hours). PSA has done it very well. A few years ago their customer numbers were not so great. Look what has happened now? how many DS3 2WD and 207 S2000 cars you can see in in each rally? Excellent strategy. They just need to reconsider their strategy outside Europe.

**MJW** · 7th Jul 12, 08:14

Back in the early to mid 1980's Peugoet were in a very bad way economically and sales wise, some say that the WRC programme with the 205T16 was what saved the company. I think Citroen will step down from the top class and remain with R2 DS3 2 wd and Peugeot come in with 208 model.

**AndyRAC** · 7th Jul 12, 11:28

Originally Posted by MJW

Back in the early to mid 1980's Peugoet were in a very bad way economically and sales wise, some say that the WRC programme with the 205T16 was what saved the company. I think Citroen will step down from the top class and remain with R2 DS3 2 wd and Peugeot come in with 208 model.

And Citroen leaving allows Loeb to depart stage left. Job done....unless he finishes at the end of this year.