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Thread: Rally2 (ex-R5) News
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23rd July 2012, 14:59 #91
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Is there a future for R5?
R5 was a good idea to allow amateurs to get new 4wd cars at a reasonable price but with the introduction of S2000 1.6T cars (RCC) in national or regional championships the concept is under threath.
From the past experiences of new categories cost control (remember S2000) the 150m€ price target is difficult to achieve, probably cars would cost near 200m€. At this price and knowing that R5 cars are less competitive than RRC, how many drivers would invest that kind of money with so little changes to win overall?
Probably teams and drivers with budget to run nowadays highly cost S2000NA cars will more easily evolve to RRC cars, so the remaining R5 purpose would be the replacement of N4 cars, but how many manus are interested in developing a 4wd amateurs car? Especially when the development process of a RRC would cost nearly the same?
Toyota has already answer these questions, developing the Yaris under RRC regs. Lets see how many more manus will follow this direction.
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23rd July 2012, 17:09 #92
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R5 came after S2000 1.6T (or RRC) as their replacement not before. What is under threat is RRC not R5. What is highly expensive now is RRC not S2000 2.0NA. Those are not cheap but still are much cheaper than RRC (at least what I know about Fabia, Peugeot and Mini).
Than how did You come to the point that R5 will be slower than RRC? R5 will be at least on par (I bet they will be faster). Simply because they must be fast enough to have sense for manufacturers. There are talks about 3-5 cars already under development (Peugeot 208, Škoda Fabia, Ford Fiesta are sure). These cars are going to play the main role at least in the IRC where they can't loose with old 2.0NA cars. Works teams would not go into a suicidal action resulting they would look like a bunch of clowns beaten by amateurs in old cars.
Let's take it like this. The suspension and drivetrain will be virtually same with current S2000/RRC/WRC cars with the exception of five-speed gearbox. There is not much simpler to invent. What will be very different is the engine. Very expensive DI engine of RRC cars will be replaced by much simpler unit (I expect something like R3T engine). The funny thing is that the expensive engine of RRC cars is rather weak due to the small restrictor and since the R5 are supposed to have 2 mm larger they will be more powerful even with much simpler and cheaper unit.Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump
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23rd July 2012, 20:07 #93
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R5 was intended to replace S2000NA cars at a fraction of their price. The problem is that S2000T (RRC) came in the middle of the process and now R5 costs will rise in order to match RRC speed.
That has nothing to do with “poor man S2000” original concept and it’s a missed opportunity to make national and regional series affordable.
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23rd July 2012, 21:46 #94
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Originally Posted by Arganil
Thinking twice about this news that MJW came with for 2014, I am starting to get cold feet.
If R5 will take over for WRCars as well, the cost will by default explode. And we will be back to the original issue, cost.
So better to keep the WRCars as is and keep R5 as a cheaper national/regional top class, as well as the new PWRCar.
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24th July 2012, 00:23 #95
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Originally Posted by Sulland
WRC in their S2000T form should be ban from FIA regional championships and national sanctioned series. This way R5 could be developed as a contained budget top class, with costs closer to N4/R4.
The sport needs a new national/regional affordable 4wd category. Top level S2000 cars (T and even the latest NA models) are too expensive in todays economical situation. N4/R4 are “close to extinction species” and to found national series on 2wd machinery (like the brits did) doesn’t suit the fans.
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24th July 2012, 10:58 #96
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Originally Posted by Arganil
As I said there isn't much to invent in suspension and drivetrain schema already used now. What can be easily replaced by much cheaper equivalent is the RRC engine and that's really easy. Just a play with restrictor size.Stupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump
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25th July 2012, 20:07 #97
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Originally Posted by MJW
Is this info from a trustworthy source MJW, or just rumours?
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26th July 2012, 00:51 #98
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WRC 1.6T rules were only introduced in 2011. They were intended to attract new manu(facturer)s to wrc and technical stability is essential to bring and keep manus involved.
VW commitment is for at least 3 years and Toyota has a history of long term involvement, so there's a fair chance that WRC 1.6T will stand in top for a long time (2.0TWRC were there for 14 years).
The delay from FIA decision over R5 it's maybe linked with lack of interest from manus. If R5 cars are now intended to match RRC pace they'll not be cheap. With the same speed and almost the same price of RRC, why bother to create this new category?
And there's also the bigger picture: with FIA really committed to wrc, as it now seems, will there be another chance for other international series to threat the world rally championship prominence, as IRC did a few years ago?
Perhaps not. FIA will probably try to centre manus interest over actual wrc cars (WRC and RRC derivates), avoiding to create a new "manus friedly" 2nd level type of cars, equivalent to the successful S2000NA concept.
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26th July 2012, 02:20 #99
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Originally Posted by arganil
Originally Posted by arganil
Originally Posted by arganilStupid is as stupid does. Forrest Gump
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26th July 2012, 10:24 #100Originally Posted by Arganil
Mikkelsen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpe6ipk1NKU
Hyundai WRT