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Thread: Team orders at Ferrari
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29th July 2010, 05:57 #531
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Originally Posted by wedge
As one old lawyer once said, when your client has a solid case, try to keep them from inflicting irreparable damage upon themselves.......
or the same rule applies in legal disputes and orgies: be sure the person you are "having sex with" is not yourself
First ground establishing quilt as a matter of law (ie, beyond any factual dispute):
Ferrari contested the stewards hearing and argued no team orders. Stewards disagreed and hit them with the max fine.
No appeal taken.
In a court of law, that is what is known as res judicata, and a party who fails to appeal, is stuck with the finding (in this case that they cheated) and can no longer argue to the contrary; they are stuck with the label as a matter of law.
This was not a plea bargain or a settlement where a party pays without admitting fault. Too late for that.
Second ground as a matter of law (ie beyond dispute):
Luca's own website establishes guilt, yet again. And makes it sound as though Luca is proud to do it in your face
Duh......
Third ground:
The radio transmission before and right after the pass....esp. the "good boy"
well double duh.....
while number three might arguably be gotten around with some fine lawyer work........the other two are fatal.
reminds me of a young nurse telling me how she hated doctors, because she never got over what happened on her first night of training in an Emergency room. A patient was wheeled in, and the doc took one look and said "mark him down as another Dead on arrival......NEXT"
She blurted out, "are you not even going to try to help him or even look at him?"
He responded, "well sweetie pie (and some other stuff) if you will find where they left his head and bring it to me, I will sew it back on....."
She then acquired the nickname of "sew-it-back" among many of her profession, including docsOnly the dead know the end of war. Plato:beer:
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29th July 2010, 06:56 #532
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Originally Posted by airshifter
and this year and in the past passing is possible if you have the gumption to do it like Hamilton and Alonso of old. But this new Alonso seems to have fallen into a much worse entitlement state of mind than MSC ever had in his hey day. At the end of the day MSC did his damage on the track and if he had issues never really took it to the public quite the way Alonso does.
Race victories should be earned and not given. I never liked team orders and never will. I can see the need to support your teammate win the WDC in the closing few GP's when you are out of the wdc fight. that would only be natural. But outright theft of a gP and then get on the podium and prance around like you earned it is pathetic. Especially when you were on the radio cryin to the team to let you win without having to fight. Then later or talking about "team" this and "team" that. It is sad to see such a talented driver sink so low in morality and attitude.you can't argue with results.
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29th July 2010, 06:59 #533
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Originally Posted by wedge
Ferrari (especially Fred) are perilously short on their engine allotment . You may want to argue the letter of the law but I don't. Ferrari knows they cannot risk running in hot dirty air amongst themselves,(most likely why Fred kept dropping his interval back, only to reel Felipe in with ease) and they know Fred is their best hope for a WDC. After the pass the only radio transmission I heard to Fred was: "take it easy on your engine you need it next race" This is a monumental problem that Ferrari got themselves into early in the season. I think it played heavily into the strategy of this race. But by all means... ailor: "bash on"May the forza be with you
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29th July 2010, 07:03 #534
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Originally Posted by Tazio
all teams have the same engine allotments and it up to them to manage it accordingly. What you are effectively advocating is for them to break the rules in order to manage their own shortcomings.you can't argue with results.
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29th July 2010, 07:10 #535
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I'm not a fan of team orders, but I understand them. Each day I walk into my job and I am handed team orders. They're not always fair, but I have the option to quit if I don't agree with them.
Additionally, most popular sports have team orders. A player who doesn't accept them will find himself on the bench or traded to another team that can deal with the problem.
Perhaps we have put F1 on a high pedestal, thinking that it is a "pure" sport in order to take us away from our real worlds every two weeks. Now the pedestal is cracking again. Each time we are frustrated by team orders being employed, another crack appears. For years, we have tried to patch over the cracks, but they still exist beneath the smooth surface we have tried to put on the pedestal. The 2002 ban was just another patch. We can disguise them, but they are still there. They always have been. They always will be.
F1 is not a "pure" sport, but a team sport and a business. As such, there will always be team orders of one kind or another no matter how much we deny they exist.
If you insist on following a sport without team orders, may I suggest golf or tennis...not doubles, of course!"You can mop the blood up later." - R.A. Lafferty
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29th July 2010, 07:10 #536
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Originally Posted by truefan72Originally Posted by tazioMay the forza be with you
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29th July 2010, 07:41 #537
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Originally Posted by truefan72
Most people are actually outraged not by the team orders but by the fact that it was too obvious and at the same time have a problem with the fact they behaved normally after the race. What should they do? Be ashamed? It was the best result for the team... well... perhaps except Massa but who's fault is that he woke up so late... I'm not even sure he actually has waken up yet... I haven't seen the race but from what I've read Vettel gave him quite a bit of help. It would have been a great mistake not to swap places and obvious or not no team order was issued... the BS they've used is just as good as anyone's.
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29th July 2010, 07:53 #538
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Originally Posted by airshifter
And speaking of McLaren what a hypocrite that Withmarsh is. He actually had the nerve to give the 2007 season as an example how they sacrificed a title to treat their drivers fairly. They've sacrificed it all right... by undermining the better driver.
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29th July 2010, 07:57 #539
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Originally Posted by markabilly
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29th July 2010, 11:12 #540
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The thing that makes motorsport unusual, if not unique, is that the team is effectively competing against itself. In no other sport does one half of the team compete against the other half.
F1 teams have to balance the shared goal of the WCC with the competing goal of the WDC. Not an enviable task. To make matters worse the media and the fans place more importance on the individual competition of the WDC and throw a hissy fit if they feel that competition has been fiddled with.Forza Ferrari!!
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