A criticism of cloverleaf rallying

[AndyRAC]

Of course, it will never happen. But the arguments in this thread gives an impression that many want rallying back to the "stone ages", with traditional events spanning more days, longer distances and extended geography. Which are all going to raise costs hugely. Rally GB (RAC Rally) used to be four days continously rallying through most of England and Wales. It was a real adventure for those taking part, but it simply isn`t possible to run such events any longer. And therefore ìt won`t happen.

There are traditionalists in all sports. Cross country skiing is a big sport in my country. There are still many who can`t stomach a 50 km event run in loops of 7,5 km and with all skiers starting together. In the "good all days", the skiers just disappeared into the forest for a 25 km loop and was on their own for nearly 90 minutes before they came back. Sure, that was better than seeing the skiers into a stadium for every 20 minutes....

This is modern days rallying, guys, just accept it. Cloverleaf is not that bad!

Not sure I agree with that. Cloverleaf is okay for some events, but not for all. Every event should be different; 2,3,4,5 day events - some 250 miles, others 300, 350, 400. What we need is some variety. This isn't F1 - trying to make it like F1 has ruined the sport.

[BDunnell]

Cloverleaf is okay for some events, but not for all. Every event should be different; 2,3,4,5 day events - some 250 miles, others 300, 350, 400. What we need is some variety.

I agree completely.

[Iskald]

In what sense has the cloverleaf format brought any of the hoped-for benefits in terms of media (especially TV) coverage and increased public interest?

Forget 2009 specifically. Rallying has always had its ups and down. Right now it is down, but give it a year or two.

I know one thing for sure, (regardless of how we rate the TV-broadcasts in quality, enterntainment value etc.), rallying and especially WRC is being shown on television all around the world both more often and in much larger quantities than it was some years ago. Note that I am now referring to the world, not just Great Britain (where I understand you are used to good coverage since many years ago). I am also fully aware that coverage and broadcasts should have the potential to be even better, but this is in my understanding of the matter first and foremost a question about costs and the fact that rallying is a very costly sport to produce properly (as a TV-producer myself I know one or two things about that...)

I don`t know the facts about general public interest, except for what I have observed myself during WRC-events from 1981 and up to today. Longer (in duration) and bigger (in geography) events 20 years ago could possibly have generated more spectators that the WRC-events of today, but I don`t think so. There were so many stages in each rally before, and spectators were scattered over a much bigger area during a day af rallying. My first WRC-rally was Sweden in 1981, and it was a delight to follow as we had many more stages to chose from. Each stage was much less crowded than it is today. For the dedicated followers of rallying, this situation was of course much better than it is today. But then we are talking the proper fans, not the general public.

[BDunnell]

Forget 2009 specifically. Rallying has always had its ups and down. Right now it is down, but give it a year or two.

I wasn't referring to 2009 specifically.

I know one thing for sure, (regardless of how we rate the TV-broadcasts in quality, enterntainment value etc.), rallying and especially WRC is being shown on television all around the world both more often and in much larger quantities than it was some years ago. Note that I am now referring to the world, not just Great Britain (where I understand you are used to good coverage since many years ago). I am also fully aware that coverage and broadcasts should have the potential to be even better, but this is in my understanding of the matter first and foremost a question about costs and the fact that rallying is a very costly sport to produce properly (as a TV-producer myself I know one or two things about that...)

I don`t know the facts about general public interest, except for what I have observed myself during WRC-events from 1981 and up to today. Longer (in duration) and bigger (in geography) events 20 years ago could possibly have generated more spectators that the WRC-events of today, but I don`t think so. There were so many stages in each rally before, and spectators were scattered over a much bigger area during a day af rallying. My first WRC-rally was Sweden in 1981, and it was a delight to follow as we had many more stages to chose from. Each stage was much less crowded than it is today. For the dedicated followers of rallying, this situation was of course much better than it is today. But then we are talking the proper fans, not the general public.

My observation is that the British round of the championship today generates far less general interest, far less media coverage and doesn't attract as many spectators as it used to. In my opinion, this isn't solely down to there being no front-running British drivers any more. It has happened since the event stopped being a truly national affair in terms of its geographical coverage.

[Iskald]

My observation is that the British round of the championship today generates far less general interest, far less media coverage and doesn't attract as many spectators as it used to. In my opinion, this isn't solely down to there being no front-running British drivers any more. It has happened since the event stopped being a truly national affair in terms of its geographical coverage.

I believe you are right, but I don`t think you can draw those conclusions when it comes to some of the other traditional events. The old RAC Rally was a very special event in peoples minds, and modern cloverleaf format hasn`t suited or given any benefits to your rally. That is true. But when you look at the overall picture, with new countries coming into the WRC, generating much bigger interest in lots of countries and regions where rallying before was a small national affair (for instance Norway, Ireland, Jordan, Poland etc...), maybe the global public interest when it comes to WRC-rallying actually has risen.

[OldF]

A rally with a wider geographic area would attract more spectators because people who’s not dedicated fans would go and watch (maybe) if they could reach the stages by 50-100 km driving instead of 200-300 km as it is today. Only true rally fans are ready to drive several hundreds of kilometres to go to a rally. Also people could say: “the rally is coming to our village/town”.

For the organizer a wider geographic area could be a problem. For example at NORF 2007 the organizer had difficulties to find enough volunteers to act as safety crews at Ouninpohja.

So I would say that it’s not possible to return to the good old days but there should indeed be more diversity than there are today.

[BDunnell]

I believe you are right, but I don`t think you can draw those conclusions when it comes to some of the other traditional events. The old RAC Rally was a very special event in peoples minds, and modern cloverleaf format hasn`t suited or given any benefits to your rally. That is true. But when you look at the overall picture, with new countries coming into the WRC, generating much bigger interest in lots of countries and regions where rallying before was a small national affair (for instance Norway, Ireland, Jordan, Poland etc...), maybe the global public interest when it comes to WRC-rallying actually has risen.

The conclusion I draw from that is that a variety of events - some long, some short - would be by far the best mix.

[Hartusvuori]

For the organizer a wider geographic area could be a problem. For example at NORF 2007 the organizer had difficulties to find enough volunteers to act as safety crews at Ouninpohja.

And that was mostly because there were six other special stages within radius of - say - 60 kms (from Juupajoki to Leustu) the same day. There were volunteers coming from other areas of Finland also, driving 500+ kms overnight just to volunteer for a rally crowd for almost no pay.

For this year, the solution was no Ouninpohja which is a loss to the sport.

[DonJippo]

For this year, the solution was no Ouninpohja which is a loss to the sport.

To my knowledge there are other reasons for this than lack of marshals.

[Rallyper]

However I think one solution mentioned above with about 8-10 rallies every year (Monte, Sweden, Norway, Portugal, Argentina, Greece, NZ, Aussi, GB)and two more which will vary. How about that?

I think NORF this year will be the last real rally fom many years to come, especially if Juha will participate. We will talk about this last real rally in the future. Remember I said it first!