Quick non-partisan question

[Jonesi]

I beg to differ....he is NOT the ONLY person that can do anything about it.
Champ Car World Series should give up the ghost and as in Robin Miller's words: "sell it's assets to Tony George and save money, if not open wheel racing"

Miller's wrong and maybe delusional. The failure of CC (or maybe IRL) only leaves permanent anger, bitterness and hatred that will never go away! CC folding or selling out at best gets them 2-6 cars, not the fans in the stands not the tv contracts that Nascar now has. Only a merger of equals has any chance of healing wounds, but things may be too far gone, even for that to do any good.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Miller's wrong and maybe delusional. The failure of CC (or maybe IRL) only leaves permanent anger, bitterness and hatred that will never go away! CC folding or selling out at best gets them 2-6 cars, not the fans in the stands not the tv contracts that Nascar now has. Only a merger of equals has any chance of healing wounds, but things may be too far gone, even for that to do any good.

A merger of equals means you have to have two equals to begin with. CCWS is on life support and just needs the plug pulled to put it out of its misery. The IRL is an out-patient compared to what is going on with CCWS. This isn't a partisan statement. I mean seriously, can anyone say that CCWS is in great shape and is a viable, well run series ?

[Chaparral66]

A merger of equals means you have to have two equals to begin with. CCWS is on life support and just needs the plug pulled to put it out of its misery. The IRL is an out-patient compared to what is going on with CCWS. This isn't a partisan statement. I mean seriously, can anyone say that CCWS is in great shape and is a viable, well run series ?

This is my point for starting this post. I'm a Champ Car guy and I admit that CC has made some bad mistakes this year and right now is in rougher shape, but then both series are on a roller coaster ride. With the wanton disregard for its loyal fans, maybe both series that comprise the "top level of the sport" should just go away and give in to someone new with fresh ideas (to me that would be Roger Penske). While I do let myself get drawn into this from time to time, I really am no longer interested in CART/Champ Car vs. IRL. I want to end the split. The fans have left for NASCAR, Sportscar racing, and Drag Racing. This is terrible. My feeling is we as an open wheel group whom has had to deal with this for over 10 years, now more than ever need to work together to end it.

I am sick and tired of it. The only way the sport is going to be successful again instead of just treading water is to get back together and bring back 30 car counts and 50 teams trying to qualify at Indy each May.

[Jonesi]

A merger of equals means you have to have two equals to begin with. CCWS is on life support and just needs the plug pulled to put it out of its misery. The IRL is an out-patient compared to what is going on with CCWS. This isn't a partisan statement. I mean seriously, can anyone say that CCWS is in great shape and is a viable, well run series ?

Both patients are on an IV in ICU, just one can sit up in bed. ;-)
CC has a new chassis, and controls their own destiny as far as an engine supply. At this point the Honda & ABC TV deals end at the completion of 2009, which is also the time the aging chassis is scheduled to be replaced. (When the current chassis was new they were paid for with a lot of Honda & Toyota money, now gone.) Without a positive solution in place the only way those chassis are bought is TG writes a very BIG check (~60 cars x ~400k by begining of May '10) Even if he grandfather's the old cars they're going to need 30? new cars for the mid to top teams that's still about $12million. Without things looking up, will Honda & ABC TV stick around unless TG writes more checks to keep them?
CC still has a few worthwhile events that make a profit without big corporate ticket deals too.
If the deal doesn't look equal it's DOA right from the start.

[beachbum]

The "split" has been over 10 years now, and many new fans don't know anything about the history or even care. They just see two different open wheel series based in the US and don't know why there are two. Those of us who were around before the "split" keep the arguments alive, but at some point we have to accept there are two very different series. They may have the same parents, and use open wheel cars, but they are going in diverging directions.

CC seems to be moving toward a non-US road racing series that is mainly a support series for F1 and other European open wheel series. Most of the drivers don't seem to view the series as a destination but a way station in an open wheel career aimed at F1. While the racing is great, its claim to any American open wheel heritage is becoming laughable. The teams are US based, but each year more races are outside of the US.

The IRL at least still retains a connection to the past, but has its own issues. While apparently stable, it doesn't seem to be growing and each year most drivers worry if they will have a ride for the next year. Sponsorship is still slim. Without Indy, the IRL wouldn't have much to promote.

Both series are not much more than a blip on the motor sports scene. Is it the result of the split, the emergence of NASCAR, or the changing tastes of the sports fan? Who knows, and it doesn't matter. Each has to find a niche where it can survive and grow if possible. They have to adapt to what sells and forget the turmoil that put us in this place.

IMHO, it isn't the technology, it isn't oval vs road racing, it isn't US vs Foreign drivers. It is sports entertainment and the series that recognizes that they exist to entertain will grow. Entertainment means giving the fan something interesting to look at, interesting stories, interesting people. The fan watches because they find it exciting. Does anyone think the WWF and its offspring thrive because the wrestling is great? Hardly. It is a show, pure and simple and often outlandish. Does NASCAR always have great racing? Nope, but it does know how to put on a "show". Drag racing is so simple, some fans wonder why so many watch. It is an assault on the senses and easy to understand. The racer that gets there first wins - simple.

There is one factor in the success of NASCAR, sports car, rally, and drag racing that is sometimes missed by fans. Just as a kid growing up can play baseball and football, they can drag race their buddies (even if on bicycles) and drive their sedans fast when they get older. Some will drive sports cars on curvy roads, or race around on dirt back roads, playing rally. The average Joe thinks he has a connection to the racing since they have done some of the same activities themselves. They sit in the stands and think "I could do that". They don't know racing is far beyond their capabilities, but they still feel a connection. But open wheel has lost that connection. The average kid may build a soap box derby car, but flying around an oval in an open wheel car, or running on a road course in a formula car are experiences they can't connect to because most have never done anything similar. It is just a show.

It isn't the past that matters, it is the future. The series that puts plans in place to keep the existing fans and draw new ones will succeed. the rest will die off when the money runs out or the teams (or fans) defect to other types of racing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chap, you and I have had this talk before, and I think you can guess what I think.

I will just say this, since it is the IRL forum. Until this year, the IRL has NEVER had the upper hand over Champ Car. Maybe they have been about the same, or for the most part, had an inferior series, but this is the first time that the IRL is clearly out in front. I am a Champ Car guy, who also happens to love Indy. This split has driven me nuts over the last 12 years, and I would likely slap Tony George upside the head until he started speaking in tongues if given the chance, but he has the upper hand now. The only merger will be when he vacuums up the dust that is leftover when Champ Car implodes. Unless Champ Car notches up their professionalism a ton, they are dead meat as it stands now. They inherited CART's moral highground (in that they didn't ask for the split, they had it forced upon them) and blew it.

CART had its flaws, and spending too much money without a well thought out plan was one of them, but lets not paint either side in glory in this.

This split has killed the power of American OW racing. It got better ratings than NASCAR on Network TV back in the day, and it was a destination for anex F1 World Champion who wanted to have fun again while being at the top of his game. It had 20 to 22 races a year, big crowds, lots of interest from sponsors and manufacturers and it was only needing some remedial moves in the boardroom to continue. What killed it was the split, and THAT my friends is why I can never really embrace Tony George, or his management of racing. Despite the fact the IRL is doing better, and it more reflective of the original CART in its scope and venue choices, lets never forget it was Tony who claimed to not like foreign drivers, road/street racing and anything that CART did. He thought they were all wrong, and formed the IRL to prove it. Well now the IRL resembles CART and I wonder what the point of all of it was.

IRL fans, you had a great season, you have a series turning the corner, and for the most part, things are ok, but never delude youself that Tony knows what he is doing. His role in killing CART will never endear himself to me, despite his ownership of one of my favourite entities in the sport. Racing would have been better served than the leadership we have had in the last 12 years on both sides of the divide, but now with the IRL having the upper hand, there is NO chance for a merger. None.

The only way this sport gets truly healthy again is when one series dies, and decent management takes over the survivor. I see the former happening, but not the latter, and it makes me very sad.....

[Easy Drifter]

Hey, maybe we should think outside the box.
I would suggest USAC take it over but the last time they tried to organize a p--s up in a brewery they found the Co. had gone out of business 10 years ago.
How about the guys who run the WOO in all its different forms. There is more than the sprint cars now. They are successful.
I know a snowball has more chance in the hot spot but why do we always come bak to TG or the Capt.?
Just wild rambllings.

[OWChicago79]

Whats the point in talking about this really. It waste of time!

[Mark in Oshawa]

OW...then just move along, nothing to see. God knows the racing in the IRL is done for the season, and Champ Car is pretty much done. It is a hobby ok? If you dislike a thread, then just move along....some of us like to speculate about the motives of the kingpins of the sport, and where the sport is going. The business of this is probably more intersting at times than the actual racing can be.....

[Chaparral66]

Just a reminder, guys. I'm asking for real suggestions as to what we can do to fix this mess. Both open wheel series continue to take roller coaster rides on the road to success for failure. I'd like to get them both on flat tarmac and headed in the same direction. In this thread, I am looking straight into the future. I don't believe for a minute that there is nothing we can do. the fans have a voice in this deal, we just have to find the right path to use it effectively.