What Happens Next?

[Mark in Oshawa]

This thread has certainly brought out a lot of opinions, and that's a good thing. Starter, I realize it may be a bit annoying that most threads start out talking about the actual racing, and then it turns into politics again. But the split is so all consumming, and I think if there is one thing that binds all of us here, as well as in the IRL forums, is that we want the split to end and get back to just the racing. I think we as a group need to continue to advance that idea with every once of sweat that we can.

DrJack in one of his last posts here, agai asked "What happens next?" I don't want to run that question into the ground Doc, because you have gotten a lot of responses here to that query. I had planned to write a long response to you last post, but I think I'll keep it short this time. None of us knows what happens next, we can only give an opinion as to what we think should happen next. This mostly from a CC viewpoint, but hey, this is a CC forum.

1) Get rid of Paul Gentillozzi as a CCWS series owner (you gotta let him own a team). I don't deny his passion, just his judgement. He is a cancer that seems to be growing, and after killing Trans Am, now his bad judgement seems to have more influence than his investment in CCWS is worthy of (according to some, he hasn't even paid his shares yet).

2) CCWS must never promote an event they don't even have locked down yet. Even a high school athletic director vying for a county wide basketball tourney knows that much.

3) The IRL must quit waiting for the other OWS shoe to drop. CC is just as determined as the IRL, and neither side is accomplishing anything.

4) Merge the two series, with both being prepared to sacrifice something. Once this is done, just hand the keys of Open Wheel Racing over to Roger Penske for 3-5 years and let him have at it, with input from Bryan Barnhart and Tony Cotman. You have to give the IRL its props for a great job at Belle Isle over this past weekend and the lion's share of that must go to Penske. The Captain clearly gets it when it comes to promoting an event, attracting fans, and making the fans feel comfortable and appreciated once they get there. The was proven true when he either created or took over venues like Michigan and Fontana, and how that fan regard took a nose dive once ISC got their mitts on them. Penske knows how to sweat the details, and make the fans want to come back. Let The Captain steer the ship, and he will take us all to the Open Wheel promised land...

Uh oh Chap, now you are making sense. Better stop that, and duck. A lot of irrational hatred is out there for Penske, since they blame him for CART's demise and the demise of a lot of things, not to mention leaving CART after leading CART to fight the IRL in the first place.

The first rule of leadership is the ability to change directions and not lose people. Penske lost a few of us, but he has credability and as his promotion in Belle Isle and running the Super Bowl has proven, he understands how to promote a race, how to organize it, and how to make money off of it. 3 things Iam not entirely sure the Amigos have a handle on yet.

As for Paul Gentilozzi, the man killed Trans AM in the most gruesome way, so there is now way I would let him run anything. He was dumb enough to try to save Trans AM when he didn't have the money......and it needed more help than just about any pro series after it was run down by.....Steve Johnson. So why is Steve there and why is Paul making decisions. I thought KK was the chief partner? Enough of all of em...a pox ontheir house....

[David St. Hubbins]

And why is there so much scepticism of the credibility of those of us who have been involved, are no longer, but still want to follow from a distance?

A question worth answering. I'm willing to give everyone the benefit of the doubt, but yes, I'm skeptical. Now that doesn't mean I call BS on everything an "insider" says, but I don't go the other way and and accept everything someone says, just because he's an "insider". All I'm doing is questioning, and willing to continue to read DrJack's and other's responses so I can make up my own mind about how I feel about them.

But frankly, I'm finding the pro-irl faction in the CC forum a bit old, and I was trying to get from DrJack his intention and direction. As I'd mentioned in a previous post, I like quid pro quo. I think that's only fair.

I'm losing faith with KK et al, and in the article posted by AR1, KK said the 2008 schedule would be submitted to FIA in mid-October, which seems to be too late to get any sort of sponsorship dollars for next year.

While I'm not in the racing industry, I am in sales, and know that many companies are working on (or finished with) their catalogs for next year. In my industry, October is too late for next year, so I don't know what will happen next.

Certainly a merger is what needs to happen. But why should TG be involved in it? Only because he owns IMS. That in my mind doesn't qualify him to own and/or run the series, it only means he owns the football.

In a way, I envy most of you, insiders and out, who describe themselves as completely absorbed race fans (my words). That is, you have a passion for racing that burns from your heart, and love any and all forms of racing. Compared to you, I'm little more than a casual fan, although I'm really somewhere in between the man-on-the-street-casual fan and you. I doubt I'd watch the irl if tg were involved if there were a merger, but take him out of the equation, and I would follow it. If CC went away, and there was only the irl, but tg involved, I'd move on and find something else to do.

It'd be like a death in the family for me. There'd be a hole in my heart where good racing used to be, but I'd eventually accept it and move on with my life.

So for a second answer to DrJack's question of "What happens next?" I guess I have to ask: For whom?

[heelntoe]

Thanks for the kind words, I have great regard for your posts as well. Cache and Sanguin could be the same guy or not, it makes no difference. I wont let lies and stupidity pollute the board if I can refute with logic and reality.

You, Gary, Skid, Jimi ( who doesn't love Jimi's faith? ) and others have been great to argue with, agree with and be a fan with over my time on this board. There are others (Hey, you know who you are) as well, and I think what unites most of us is that we want this series to succeed. I used to be just a fan, and always took the defensive to defend this series and where it stood, but this year, I just realized that the Amigo's are just not getting it done. I like Kalkoven, but I think he has tacitly let Forsythe and Gentilozzi run things, and it shows this year. Yes we have a new car, but that seemed to be where the good news stopped. Europe has turned out to be good news,but lets face it, when you are failing in your core market, it is like saying your hubcaps look great, but you still don't know what to do with all the rust on the body.

I think Champ Car soldiers on next year, but Newman will be out soon ( I cant imagine he likes what he see's) and NH goes to the IRL if not next year but the following year. IF Forsythe sold to Cochrane, I would cheer this on, for I don't think Gerry really should be in the promotion/ownership side of this series. I think we may see some new series, but I bet Vegas will follow Phoenix, and there will be doubts on other venues. If Champ Car makes the leap to international venues and makes them pay, without losing teams, they have a fighting chance, but by failing in their core market, they send a message that they are flailing about without a direction or an idea where the fans went. It just is sad, and while this wouldn't have been the fate of CART if the IRL never happened, one can just weep at just how much healthier OW racing would be on this continent if Tony had been more constructive and not destructive.

Mark, I know nothing about Tony and his reasoning, but when I look at where CART went and where CCWS is now, I see a valid argument as to why you would want to establish independence...that said, i know nothing about the politics..I was brought in in '03 and while I've owned many cars...most that wouldn't be owned by the everyday guy, I'm mostly an exec that got hornswaddled by PG and the others.

[garyshell]

I'm the one who started all this debate about insider status. I want to set the record straight. I have no beef with anyone who is an "insider". I have a beef with anyone who uses that status to try to gain instant credibility and then hide behind anonymity. If you are an insider and don't want to say who you are then why even claim the insider status at all. Why not do what the rest of us do by having the content of our message dictate our credibiity.

Gary

[OWFan19]

I'm the one who started all this debate about insider status. I want to set the record straight. I have no beef with anyone who is an "insider". I have a beef with anyone who uses that status to try to gain instant credibility and then hide behind anonymity. If you are an insider and don't want to say who you are then why even claim the insider status at all. Why not do what the rest of us do by having the content of our message dictate our credibiity.

Gary

Maybe you should have said that earlier! As an anonymous insider, I have to agree with your assesment. Look at messages over a period of time and make your decission. Of course sometimes emotions kick in.

[Mark in Oshawa]

David, your one Quote that caught my eye and I was discussing it with one of the more interesting "insiders" who knows people in the IRL and the quote you said was:

"Certainly a merger is what needs to happen. But why should TG be involved in it? Only because he owns IMS. That in my mind doesn't qualify him to own and/or run the series, it only means he owns the football."

The problem is, in North America, you cannot have a conversation about Open Wheel without dealing with the Speedway and Tony George. He has the football that people are still caring about, although to a lesser degree. It has been said that Tony is the cause of the upheaval in the sport, but short of his utter defeat, as long as he runs the IRL, then there will be a split fan base. There isn't enough fans of either series to make either one really succeed. What bothers me is the CCWS has almost done themselves in by their lack of professional leadership though because now the IRL has no reason to think twice about their course. They THINK they are on the right course and by CCWS losing events and teetering on the brink, no one at 16th and Georgetown will really listen to a merger or any new ideas. CCWS is too arrogant to realizing they are losing fans like myself, who know when they are being conned, and there is a legion of people out there apparently that wont do business with the Amigo's, making sponsorship and promotion more difficult. So now they decide Europe is the goal, likely because they know they have salted the earth back here....meanwhile, it does NOTHING for the American base.

No, Chapparral's suggestion that Penske be the leader or an intregal part of saving OW racing is the one idea I have always liked, and see no reason to change now. I think he enjoys being at the track as an owner to do it, but I can tell you that someone like him with his skill set is the guy you need. You have to understand promotions, event management, teams and what they need, and the ability to phone major corporations and get phone calls returned. Penske can do it all, and I suspect if he told Tony George to shut his mouth, Tony would do it knowing Penske will make money for everyone. Then again, he didn't listen to Penske in the mid 90's.....never underestimate the arrogance of Tony George.

[David St. Hubbins]

No, Chapparral's suggestion that Penske be the leader or an intregal part of saving OW racing is the one idea I have always liked, and see no reason to change now. I think he enjoys being at the track as an owner to do it, but I can tell you that someone like him with his skill set is the guy you need. You have to understand promotions, event management, teams and what they need, and the ability to phone major corporations and get phone calls returned. Penske can do it all, and I suspect if he told Tony George to shut his mouth, Tony would do it knowing Penske will make money for everyone. Then again, he didn't listen to Penske in the mid 90's.....never underestimate the arrogance of Tony George.

Mark, I certainly agree with what you say about the skill set that RP has is what is needed. Whether he's the right man in particular, I won't say just yet, because I need to sleep on that one. RP's 70 this year, and while that can still be young (he's not 102 fer cryin' out loud), I wonder how long he's willing to hold up. Could be another 10-15 years, but who knows?

Right now though, off the top of my head, I don't know of anyone else who has the drive, skills, knowledge, and yes, greed (for both those around him as well as himself) to make it work.

[heelntoe]

I'm the one who started all this debate about insider status. I want to set the record straight. I have no beef with anyone who is an "insider". I have a beef with anyone who uses that status to try to gain instant credibility and then hide behind anonymity. If you are an insider and don't want to say who you are then why even claim the insider status at all. Why not do what the rest of us do by having the content of our message dictate our credibiity.

Gary

Gary, I've always appreciated your conviction, just not how it's been translated I don't hide behind anything as I'm happy to share my experience and I've been around for a long time...this is where your argument falls on the floor... if those of us who have insider status refuse your questions of information, without identity, then there's an argument...otherwise, your question of our credibilty is empty. We don't need to share our identity for anyone!!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Heelntoe, you do realize though it is a doubleedged sword. If you release your identity and role in the sport, then people can come at you for things you want to say but don't want to influence your position or legal status. But by being in the closet (certaintly not the closet Senator Craig is in) your influence, status and crediblity is questioned. I understand the balancing act perfectly, since I know a few lurkers out there who wont post here because they know they might give something away that might get them in trouble with management of their racing series, but at the same time, you guys have opinions that matter, and opinions that are shaped by a reality us fans wont see. I hope you never stop posting, but do tread warily, for using the "I am insider" card only will get you so far with some of these guys....

[Chaparral66]

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]Uh oh Chap, now you are making sense. Better stop that, and duck. QUOTE]

Dammit! Did I do that again? I've gotta do something about that...